CNN: Israel tries to assassinate Cynthia McKinney by piratenews

Free Gaza!!!

Why I ask you, why aren’t the peaceful and friendly Hamas terrorists in Gaza left in peace to bomb Israel? Why? Let us all stand up for the inalienable rights of the peace-loving Hamas terrorists to target and murder Israeli civilians. Let us condemn Israel for its hateful and barbaric practice of defending itself from terrorist attacks and Hamas missiles.

FREEDOM!!!! ...to murder Jews

Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.

Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.

-- Cicero

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Wednesday, December 31, 2008 9:21 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:

Why I ask you, why aren’t the peaceful and friendly Hamas terrorists in Gaza left in peace to bomb Israel?

I say we let them fight it out their way, but without OUR money. I don't see any good guys, government-wise, over there.

The isolationist Chrisisall

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Wednesday, December 31, 2008 9:40 AM

Warning, if you're head's up Sharon's comatose ass, you won't be able to read this.

Free Gaza. I agree. The one part of palestine that ancient Israel was not able to subjegate.

They were probably just trying to annoy McKinney so she would go away. But she made headlines.

Anyway, you go girl!

Republicans for McKinney :)

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Wednesday, December 31, 2008 9:43 AM

Republicans for killing Jews!!!!

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Wednesday, December 31, 2008 11:05 AM

WHOZIT

McKinney was looking for a "Photo Op", if she was killed, NOBODY would care!

I'm going to microwave a bagel and have sex with it - Peter Griffin

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Wednesday, December 31, 2008 11:10 AM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)

FREE GAZA!

(While supplies last)

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Wednesday, December 31, 2008 11:17 AM

KIRKULES

I think the only ones in real danger were any unlucky enough to be caught between McKinney and the camera.

NOTIFY: N | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Wednesday, December 31, 2008 11:52 AM

GEEZER

Keep the Shiny side up

Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
I say we let them fight it out their way, but without OUR money. I don't see any good guys, government-wise, over there.

Yep.

"Keep the Shiny side up"

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Wednesday, December 31, 2008 11:59 AM

Quote:
FREE GAZA!

(While supplies last)

ROFL

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Wednesday, December 31, 2008 12:37 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Geezer:

Yep.

*faints*isall

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Wednesday, December 31, 2008 12:38 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
Quote:
Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:

Why I ask you, why aren’t the peaceful and friendly Hamas terrorists in Gaza left in peace to bomb Israel?
I say we let them fight it out their way, but without OUR money. I don't see any good guys, government-wise, over there.

If only life were truly that simple. If you take money away from Israel (which will weaken our defense, by the way), then you must take money away from the Palestinians. And you must take it away from Syria, Jordan, Egypt and Lebanon. And you must stop France, Russia, Iran, Saudi Arabia, Egypt, Syria and a host of other nations from sending aid, much of which goes directly to the Palestinians to be used for military efforts.

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Wednesday, December 31, 2008 12:44 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:
And you must stop France, Russia, Iran, Saudi Arabia, Egypt, Syria and a host of other nations from sending aid, much of which goes directly to the Palestinians to be used for military efforts.

Why do all those countries hate America so?

The

Chrisisall

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Wednesday, December 31, 2008 12:57 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
Quote:
Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:
And you must stop France, Russia, Iran, Saudi Arabia, Egypt, Syria and a host of other nations from sending aid, much of which goes directly to the Palestinians to be used for military efforts.

Why do all those countries hate America so?

France, Russia, Saudi Arabia, and Egypt are allies.

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Wednesday, December 31, 2008 2:06 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:
France, Russia, Saudi Arabia, and Egypt are allies.

We need better allies.

The Happy New Year Chrisisall

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Wednesday, December 31, 2008 2:41 PM

Finn: Obviously, everyone in the world would aid Palestine because Palestine is desperate for an ally, and every power wants a desperate ally, because they'll let you do anything, such as set up a military base. This is why despots always have China, Russia or the US backing them up.

But this still doesn't make your argument work. The money and weaponry Israel has by itself without US aid already vastly exceeds that of Palestine and all that it gets from its friends.

Moving on to the more salient point, I'm going to agree with Chris and Geezer. Surprisingly, this is not the first time it has happened, when I was here before we came together on some issue, but I'll grant it's an odd match. If Rue wants to sign on I would count it as truly bizarre, and then if Auraptor joined us I think we could call it a disturbance in the force.

I'm afraid Finn has already had too much sex with a bagel to ever abandon Israel. *(No offense in the extremely unlikely event that Finn is jewish.)

Interesting side note: I know a lot of jews, and I now do not know one practicing jew who supports Israel. I know many, and at least three closely, who would say mazal tov to cutting Israel free. I suppose, now that I think about it, it's logical. Just like Bush is America's albatross, so too, for a jew, is Israel. It's like a posterchild for unpopularity. The way Abu Ghraib was a posterchild for Iraqi insurgency.

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Wednesday, December 31, 2008 2:58 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by dreamtrove:
If Rue wants to sign on I would count it as truly bizarre, and then if Auraptor joined us I think we could call it a disturbance in the force.

THERE WILL BE NO DISTURBING ALLIANCES ON MY WATCH, YOUNG DREAMTROVE!

The Forceful Chrisisall

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Wednesday, December 31, 2008 3:36 PM

FREMDFIRMA

With 'friends' like these...

Fuck Israel, let em do it on their own dime, it's about time we cut those leeches off our ass, we shell out so much money to em, and what do we get in return ?

Espionage, sabotage and terrorism.

In case nobody noticed, they got just as long a terrorist rap as any of the folk they go head to head with AND a history of espionage and sabotage against us, their so-called "allies" that always drives me to ponder why we're not at war with *them* given what our reaction to that level of provocation from anyone else woulda been.

Ergo, they can kiss my ass, next time they come around begging for foreign aid our only response should be...

-F

NOTIFY: N | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Wednesday, December 31, 2008 3:42 PM

Chris, I think I sense a disturbance in the force:
Frem is on board with the plan.

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Wednesday, December 31, 2008 11:26 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
Quote:
Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:
France, Russia, Saudi Arabia, and Egypt are allies.
We need better allies.

No argument there.

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Wednesday, December 31, 2008 11:33 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by dreamtrove:
Finn: Obviously, everyone in the world would aid Palestine because Palestine is desperate for an ally, and every power wants a desperate ally, because they'll let you do anything, such as set up a military base. This is why despots always have China, Russia or the US backing them up.

But this still doesn't make your argument work. The money and weaponry Israel has by itself without US aid already vastly exceeds that of Palestine and all that it gets from its friends.

Actually it does. My argument works just fine, whether you want to wipe out Israel or not. It’s you’re argument that doesn’t work. If you’re going to let them fight it out, then let them fight it out. You can’t claim to let them fight it out, while you’re supporting one side with aid. Logically, the two are mutually exclusive.

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Thursday, January 1, 2009 12:55 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
Quote:
Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:
And you must stop France, Russia, Iran, Saudi Arabia, Egypt, Syria and a host of other nations from sending aid, much of which goes directly to the Palestinians to be used for military efforts.

Why do all those countries hate America so?

Because they are Muslim, and we are not. Muslims have been told they are the chosen children of God, yet they can see they are a century or more behind us - so it must be due to cheating by us as well as the Jews. Except Russia and France. France lost it's spine between WWI and WWII, and Russia is ticked that after Reagan gave them a chance at freedom, Clinton let them down and ignored them, allowing their current government situation to arise.

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Thursday, January 1, 2009 5:16 AM

Quote:
FINN

Actually it does. My argument works just fine, whether you want to wipe out Israel or not. It’s you’re argument that doesn’t work. If you’re going to let them fight it out, then let them fight it out. You can’t claim to let them fight it out, while you’re supporting one side with aid. Logically, the two are mutually exclusive.

If you want Israel to be free from muslim attacks, then Israel would have to stop laying claim to additional muslim territory. Gaza is solidly muslim and has been for far longer than any human or govt. in the region has existed.

Whether or not you perceive muslim attacks as equivalent or as counter-attacks, or simply as unprovoked assaults, you have to see that they're not illogical. Someone is coming and taking their land, and they're defending it, just as we would.

If, instead, the US were to suspend aid to Israel, the Israeli govt. would quickly realize that it wants the aid far more than it wants Gaza, and would offer a ceasefire, which the muslims would certainly accept, because they don't want to lose their land, they are losing, and Hamas has already repeatedly offered one.

True, there would still be attacks, probably from both sides, but with the backing of neither govt., these attacks could simply be called crimes, and dealt with accordingly.

Ergo, it's best for Israel that we suspend aid for its own sake, so that a Nation perfectly capable of defending itself will reconsider its own actions.

Consider a completely different, but analogous welfare situation. Here in NY there was a proposal that welfare be suspended from people on drug charges, by folks not interested in supporting the drug dealers with taxpayer money. The measure didn't pass, and so the druggies continue to spend their money in an unwise way, taking the state assistance for granted, and doing as they please without considering any reprocussions. If aid were to disappear, the first thing that would happen is they wouldn't be able to buy more drugs. Then, say, after a grace period, or a rehabilitation program, they were then eligible for welfare. Now, some might have learned better, but more would be reluctant to spend the money on drugs because then the money might go away again.

As long as Israel remains a welfare case, it doesn't need to consider any repercussions to any of its actions, and so the most zealous govt. possible will continue to get elect, and act in this manner. In the long run, from a conservative perspective, it is better for everyoen not to be a welfare case.

If Israel should decide to forgo the aid and continue the war, it will need to go through the same procedures as everyone else. They'll have to point out the specific target groups, the mujahideen or whoever, which are committing acts against Israel, and try to work with Hamas to deal with them, and failing that, send guys in to deal with it themselves, on their own dime. But carpet bombing civilian populations is never going to gain popular support anywhere, not even here.

From your own perspective, I would assume to be that as a member of the military intelligence if I recall, you have no vested interest in Israel or Judaism, but in Israel as a military colony in the middle east. To that end, it is of no use to us if it is in a state of conflict, as it was no use to us in the Iraq war. You would probably want to reinstate the aid after Israel after they had calmed down, and then if they started invading Palestine again, cut off aid, keep them on the short leash. The size of Israel is not important to the US in terms of its usefulness, it's the ability to use it at all, which we can't do if it's in a constant state of war.

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Thursday, January 1, 2009 5:21 AM

Quote:
JEWELSTAITEFAN

Because they are Muslim, and we are not. Muslims have been told they are the chosen children of God, yet they can see they are a century or more behind us - so it must be due to cheating by us as well as the Jews. Except Russia and France. France lost it's spine between WWI and WWII, and Russia is ticked that after Reagan gave them a chance at freedom, Clinton let them down and ignored them, allowing their current government situation to arise.

Oh, where does one even start. Muslims are apparently a single small child with only one opinion, which is to hate. But I'd rather go over to

"France had a spine?" I missed this part of history.

Next, So, Russia only became antagonistic to the US after Glasnost? (Reagan wasn't president when the Berlin wall came down.) So I guess that whole cold war thing was just because they were too cold to go to war.

Oh why bother.

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Thursday, January 1, 2009 7:07 AM

PIRATENEWS

John Lee, conspiracy therapist at Hollywood award-winner History Channel-mocked SNL-spoofed PirateNew.org wooHOO!!!!!!

Quote:
Originally posted by piratenews:

Cynthia McKinney on CNN discussing Israel trying to sink her and USS Liberty

McKinney and CNN journo rammed 3 times by Israeli navy

The Real Black Candidate Who's Actually A US Citizen TM
http://piratenews-tv.blogspot.com/2008/12/cnn-israel-tries-to-assassin
ate-cynthia.html

“So while our focus obviously is on Gaza right now, this could turn out to be a much larger conflict. We’re looking at potentially a multi-front war here. I don’t think there’s anything at this point standing between Iran and nuclear weapons other than the possibility of the use of military force possibly by the United States, possibly by Israel,” added the former ambassador, suggesting that a strike on Iran’s facilities by Israel alone would be risky but could push Iran back by three or four years."
-NeoCon John Bolton US ambassador to UN Corp

Let US review the evidentiary record:

To Provoke War, Cheney Considered Proposal To Dress Up Navy Seals As Iranians And Shoot At Them
www.thinkprogress.org/2008/07/31/cheney-proposal-for-iran-war/

Israel founded Hamas
www.informationclearinghouse.info/article10456.htm

Or the rockets were fired by the Israli military inside of Israel:
www.kawther.info/wpr/2008/12/25/the-rockets-of-hunger-and-israel-propa
ganda

VIDEO: Loss of Liberty - Israel attacks US Navy
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=7267134620652018859

VIDEO: Dead In The Water - The Sinking of the USS Liberty by Israel
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-3319663041501647311

Jewish Operation Northwoods false-flag terror attacks in USA perped by Pentagon and CIA
http://abcnews.go.com/US/story?id=92662&page=1

Israel Jews massacre 1,000s of Israeli citizens in Gaza death camp 2008
http://images.google.com/images?hl=en&q=gaza&btnG=Search+Images&gbv=2

NOTIFY: N | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Thursday, January 1, 2009 8:31 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by dreamtrove:
If you want Israel to be free from muslim attacks, then Israel would have to stop laying claim to additional muslim territory. Gaza is solidly muslim and has been for far longer than any human or govt. in the region has existed.

What is Muslim territory? What you decide it is? What Hamas decides it is? That argument amount to Israel doesn’t have a right to exist. The only way to stop Arab attacks on Israelis is to 1) exterminate Israelis (the Hamas solution) or 2) assert political control and develop the Palestinian territories (the Israeli solution). Unfortunately, what happens is that if Israel attempts to do this, they are ordered to remove themselves from Palestinian territories, thereby leaving the job undone, and often in worse conditions. So, I agree with Chris and Geezer that the only real solution is to leave the Israelis to sort it out, which is a long-term solution, but the only viable one. However, you have to do something about all the aid that goes to Palestinian terrorists because that will serve to do nothing but exacerbate, and prolong the conflict.

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Thursday, January 1, 2009 11:48 AM

Quote:
What is Muslim territory? What you decide it is? What Hamas decides it is?

Nope, that would be where muslims live. It helps when there's an internationally recognized boundary, and a govt. in this case, a democratically elected one.

Quote:
So, I agree with Chris and Geezer that the only real solution is to leave the Israelis to sort it out

Ah, there is a disturbance in the force. Now we're only waiting on Auraptor

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Thursday, January 1, 2009 11:58 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by dreamtrove:
Quote:
What is Muslim territory? What you decide it is? What Hamas decides it is?
Nope, that would be where muslims live. It helps when there's an internationally recognized boundary, and a govt. in this case, a democratically elected one.

Muslims live in the US.

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Thursday, January 1, 2009 2:44 PM

Finn, happy birthday.

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Thursday, January 1, 2009 8:09 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by dreamtrove:
Quote:
JEWELSTAITEFAN

Because they are Muslim, and we are not. Muslims have been told they are the chosen children of God, yet they can see they are a century or more behind us - so it must be due to cheating by us as well as the Jews. Except Russia and France. France lost it's spine between WWI and WWII, and Russia is ticked that after Reagan gave them a chance at freedom, Clinton let them down and ignored them, allowing their current government situation to arise.

Oh, where does one even start. Muslims are apparently a single small child with only one opinion, which is to hate. But I'd rather go over to

"France had a spine?" I missed this part of history.

Next, So, Russia only became antagonistic to the US after Glasnost? (Reagan wasn't president when the Berlin wall came down.) So I guess that whole cold war thing was just because they were too cold to go to war.

Oh why bother.

I'm trying to recall if I've ever seen you make a point. Ever. I wonder if you are capable.

JFK was not present when Neil Armstrong set foot on the Moon. I guess that means he had nothing to do with it. RMN was not Presidient when Ford pardoned him, so I guess he had nothing to do with it. FDR was not President when WWII ended, so I guess he had no part in the result. Lincoln was not alive when Negros were given the right to vote, so I guess he had no part in it. I find it hard to believe anybody could really be so clueless as your statement indicates, but review of your past posts supports such a conclusion.

Just because a portion of a religion's followers justify extremist measures and justifications, does not mean the entire planet's followers of that religion all succumb to the same faulty logic. Not only did I not say such a thing, you should realize what a fool you sound like by trying to imply somebody did say such a thing.

Oh why bother.

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Thursday, January 1, 2009 8:21 PM

Your comment about the jaded perceptions of the Muslim world is an astute one. The Muslim world was completely demoralized by the Arab-Israeli wars. For a long time, the Muslim world was advancing into the modern age – they were actually giving up tradition Islamic fundamentalism. They were developing modern socio-political philosophies and most of them were moving towards a modern socialist economy. Then they started invading Israel. First in 1948, which lead to 1956 and 1967 and 1973, with several smaller conflicts interspersing. The end result of all of those wars was the same. Despite being vastly outnumbered and outgunned, Israel not only defeated the Arab states, but often gained territory. And 1967 was the real kick in the ass for the Arab states. When Israel preempted an Egyptian invasion by simultaneously attacking Egypt, Syria, Jordan and Iraq and completely destroying their military capacity in less then six days (Egyptian military might alone far exceeded Israel). The loss of all these wars ruined Arab moral and nationality to such an extent that they shifted policies away from a national emphasis and towards a fundamental religious and insurgent philosophy. This had the effect of breeding widespread contempt and decay in the Arab nations, and in some cases setting them socially back centuries.

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Thursday, January 1, 2009 8:53 PM

JTF,

1. I gave reagan credit, that's why i said glasnost.

2.

Quote:
Because they are Muslim, and we are not. Muslims have been told they are the chosen children of God, yet they can see they are a century or more behind us - so it must be due to cheating by us as well as the Jews.

That does sound like an assault on if not all muslim people, all muslim nations.

Reality Check: They don't hate us. Some muslims are increasingly irritated at Israel and at the US for a few simple reasons

1. Incursions into Palestine
2. Wars in Iraq and Afghanistan
3. Support for very unpopular regimes in Egypt and Saudi Arabia
4. Threats of more war with Syria, Iran and Pakistan.

Just try on someone else's shoes. If the situation were reversed, it might look like this:

Say there was a United Muslim State called the UMS. Then, suppose that UMS openly supported Chavez and Chavez was gobbling up islands in the carribean, such as USVI and Puerto Rico. Then suppose the UMS was occupying California, and had levelled Fresno to the ground. Then suppose they were part of a joint mission to enact Regime Change in Virginia, because they believed that a rogue international agency which they had labelled terrorist, and which had bombed some muslims was there (any military paramilitary group in Arlington, take your pick.)

I am by no means defending the hypothetical UMS, or their counterparts, just creating an analagous reverse situation: THIS IS HOW THEY SEE IT.

Okay, if this were the situation, how would you react? You would probably think that UMS was a menace, and you would probably think that UMS needed some regime change. You would also be very angry at Chavez, esp. if you happen to be a Puerto Rican. Say you live in San Juan, now imagine your what your attitude towards this situation might be?

Right then. Either you can't see things from someone else's perspective, or you do not care whether or not your argument makes sense.

I look at the whole world objectively. I think that almost everyone is behaving in a completely rational manner. There are some very obvious exceptions in the real world:

1. The US, China and Russia are behaving in an expansionist manner. This is pretty typical empire behavior.

2. Israel and North Korea are behaving in a hostile way towards their neighbors, and both for the reason: They have the unconditional backing of a superpower.

3. Chavez is behaving badly in general, this is because like Kim Jong Il, he is insane.

4. Bashir and the Govt. of the Sudan are behaving badly. Mugabe is as well. The coup in Myanmar is not acting well, and there's trouble in Thailand. Otherwise, most of the world is behaving in a predictable manner, in their own self interests.

IMHO, the above mentioned exceptions are acting in a way which is ultimately counter to their self interests.

I sympathize with Gaza not because I like Hamas, or am pro-Islam or anti-Jewish, but because they are in an unenviable position. Israel repeatedly refuses a ceasefire, and Egypt has close the border. This means they will probably be conquered. Given their own nature, they're probably going to fight to the end, and then die.

I sympathize with Iran because I think not only are they under constant threat, but they are doing a really good job of avoiding direct conflict. That, too, is out of self interest, but it's respectable.

The countries that have the most of my sympathies at the moment are the Ukraine and S. Korea, because they have essentially been minding their own business, when suddenly a superpower decided to attack. I am not going to say that Iran and Palestine were only minding their own business, they were meddling, but who wasn't?

I would also say that Taiwan was minding its own business, now it is meddling with China a lot, and I think it will win. They still have my sympathies, because the Chinese Communists have none of my sympathies. The Chinese people have my sympathy, but I think that for them to lose their communist govt. would be a good thing, so hopefully it will be bloodless.

I sympathize with various african defenders like Somalia and Eritrea, which are put upon by Ethiopia, and Darfur, and the Beja, which are being put upon by the Sudan. Also, the people of Zimbabwe, for having such a terrible president.

It might alarm you to hear that I have posted many times that I support Israel. At the moment, I don't support the actions of the govt. of Israel in Gaza. Palestine is a sovereign nation with an elected govt. and is recognized by more countries than is Israel. I was surprised when talking to a British friend of mine that he expressed shock at the idea that the United States did not recognize the sovereignty of Palestine. It appears we are almost alone. Israel also doesn't. I know that a great number of Muslim nations do not recognize Israel, and they should. This is why diplomacy is important. Someone with the right amount of diplomatic skill could exchange the recognition of Israel for the recognition of Palestine and this nonsense on both sides would stop. That person would certainly have to have a lot more diplomatic skill than Hillary Clinton. Personally, my choice for Sec. of State would have been Christopher Hill. I thought Obama's choice of Richard Lugar was also excellent. Even Jimmy Carter would do a decent job, as would G.H.W. Bush.

Bill Clinton I'm not so sure about.

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Thursday, January 1, 2009 9:01 PM

Finn

I agree, but I would add a qualifier:
The arab world is preoccupied with it. It doesn't seem to be dragging down Iran, Pakistan (Nothing could drag down Afghanistan, it's already in last place, but it's not that worried about Israel) or indonesia, to say nothing of all of the former soviet muslim central asian republics that don't seem to care. Arabs care. From Libya to our allies on the penninsula.

This may indicate that this is more of a race issue than a religious one. If it were religious, I think I would have heard from Brunei.

Small note: Why is this such an issue over here? I mean, we have a larger muslim population than jewish population. It seems the only logical reason is the advantage of Israel as a strategic beachhead. But as such, wouldn't it be better as a smaller more stable state? It was of no use to us in the current conflct. This is a change. In the Gulf war, Israel was an effective ally. Now it is now. This may be because it's now involved in what we should really term a civil war, since we don't recognize palestine, and the arabs should view it the same way, since they don't recognize Israel. A nation in a state of civil war is not a lot of use as an ally.

Militarily, we should carrot and stick Israel into stability.

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Thursday, January 1, 2009 9:20 PM

Iran and Pakistan aren’t Arab, and neither were directly involved in the Arab-Israeli conflict. Most Muslim nations side with the Arab nations on this issue for political, national and religious solidarity, but you’re right, they aren’t necessarily preoccupied with it.

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Thursday, January 1, 2009 11:55 PM

Finn - thanks much for helping out by filling in many of the details. I did not have them handy, and could not rely solely upon memory to get them straight, but I did want to provide a concise and hopefully perceptive answer to what seemed an honest question. I've assuming your above post was directed at me.

Quote:
Originally posted by dreamtrove:
JTF,

1. I gave reagan credit, that's why i said glasnost.

2.
Quote:
Because they are Muslim, and we are not. Muslims have been told they are the chosen children of God, yet they can see they are a century or more behind us - so it must be due to cheating by us as well as the Jews.

That does sound like an assault on if not all muslim people, all muslim nations.

Reality Check: They don't hate us. Some muslims are increasingly irritated at Israel and at the US for a few simple reasons

1. Incursions into Palestine
2. Wars in Iraq and Afghanistan
3. Support for very unpopular regimes in Egypt and Saudi Arabia
4. Threats of more war with Syria, Iran and Pakistan.

blah blah blah blah i'm not listening to any reason blah blah blah lalalalalala blah blah blah i'm ignoring all reasonable discussion blah blah blah blah.

1. The US, China and Russia are behaving in an expansionist manner. This is pretty typical empire behavior.

Of course Reagan had no effect on the Berlin wall coming down, which is why you clearly and pointedly failed to give him credit where due. Because we all remember LBJ and RMN and GF and Jiminy Carter standing before the Wall and declaring TEAR DOWN THIS WALL. Apparently you are the only person who does not realize the Berlin wall was effectively bookended by Kennedy's "I am a jelly donut" and Reagan's quote. My point remains valid and you have failed to counterpoint.

You have gione to the extra trouble of intentionally pulling my Muslim resonse out of context. By quoting my reply in your post, you had to intentionally removed the contextual quote my answer was responding to. Perhaps you can not read effectively and did not understand the discussion, but your failure to include directly contextual material and selectively choose material you want to object to invalidates your attempts at counterpoint.
To find the specific post I made, one can easily find that it was in direct response to a question directly responding to aqnother quote clearly specifying particular Countries or Nations.
If you are really delusional enough to think that those 6 specific countries represent the entirety of the world's Muslim population, then there is likely no point in entering debate with you. If you are not that delusional, then you have intentionally tried to imply that I was claiming that those 6 specific countries represented the entirety of the World's Muslim population, making your intellectual dishonesty invalidate any of your failed attempts to counterpoint.
Although I clearly consider Finn Mac to have better comprehension than you, I think it obvious that if he was capable of understanding my informational reply, then any other reasonable person should have been able to do the same - you have shown repeatedly that this category does not include you.
The same applies to your attempts to imply that I said these 6 specific countries represent ALL Muslim Nations. Both times you have failed to counterpoint.

Of course you must also be sooo correct that denizens of those specific 6 countries hate the United States since at least the 1950's, 60's, 70's, and 80's because of all the incursions we made into Iraq and Afghanistan during those decades, eh? You have utterly failed to counterpoint.
If you are tryng to claim the residents of Afghanistan attacked the United States on 9/11 because of our future retaliation in following years, you'll make it clear the only response you desire is laughter at your ridiculous lack of logic. Almost as hilarious as your attempts to justify Arab "irritation" that the Jews do not just lie down and succumb to the Palestinian bombings of any Israeli target they can chuck a missile at - "incursions" by the Israel Armed Forces merely trying to defend themselves, their very lives, land, families (the very basic things most homeland Americans take for granted). Do you support the Nazi Holocaust as well?

Our threats to actively respond, retaliate and engage when Syria, Iran, Pakistan chose to conduct War? Puh-Leeeease.

Of course after you being wrong on everything else, I must concede how correct you are that the American Empire has acquired the 51st State of Japan, and the 52nd State of South Korea, and the 53rd State of South Vietnam, and the 54th State of Grenada, and the 55th State of Afghanistan and the 56th State of Iraq, and the Territories of Somalia, Bosnia, Panama....err, ooops, could it be you are yet again, invariably, WRONG?? When you become literate, try reading up on something called the Monroe Doctrine. Being the spinless American Imperialists, obvously we've gone after the easy pickings instead of those tough places to conquer like Iceland, Greenland, Canada, New Zealand, Ethiopia, Morocco, because we're such, you know, Conquering Imperialists and all, eh? You have completely failed all attempts to counterpoint, and in epic fashion.

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Friday, January 2, 2009 3:43 AM

HERO

Quote:
Originally posted by dreamtrove:
Nope, that would be where muslims live. It helps when there's an internationally recognized boundary, and a govt. in this case, a democratically elected one.

They elected Hamas and Hamas has a policy of destroying Isreal. Guess the folks got the change they wanted.

Isreal didn't start this latest conflict by suddenly claiming new territory. It started because the "ceasefire" in the region was being defined as Isreal stops shooting and Hamas keeps shooting. That went on for some time with everybody saying to Isreal "don't fight back...there's a ceasefire" and Isreal finally said "this aint right" and started shooting per the Reynolds Doctrine (ie 'if somebody tries to kill you then you got a right to try and kill them right back').

Even some of the arab press is spit this time.

H

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Friday, January 2, 2009 4:34 AM

JTF

not worth the time to respond.

HERO

Quote:

They elected Hamas and Hamas has a policy of destroying Isreal. Guess the folks got the change they wanted.

Sad but true. Of course, Israel elected a govt. that wanted to destroy Palestine. In any conflict, if we help one side, someone else will help the other. Ain't the way it oughta be.

We elected a govt. that if it didn't want to destroy Iraq, is doing a job of it. Now I'm afraid we've elected one up for destroying Pakistan.

See why I'm not a big fan of Govt?

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Friday, January 2, 2009 4:45 AM

It’s always the same story with you, Dreamtrove. Everytime a situation arises in Israel, it’s almost always, Hamas or Hezbollah or Fatah violating a ceasefire to kill Jews, and everytime, you insist it’s all Israeli fault who are killing the peaceful and innocent Palestinian terrorists. Basically, your position is it’s okay for Palestinians to kill Jews, but the Jews are wrong if they defend themselves, which means you want to see Jews killed. That’s the only logical way to explain the bias in your argument.

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Friday, January 2, 2009 4:47 AM

FINN

Quote:

Iran and Pakistan aren’t Arab, and neither were directly involved in the Arab-Israeli conflict. Most Muslim nations side with the Arab nations on this issue for political, national and religious solidarity, but you’re right, they aren’t necessarily preoccupied with it.

Thanks for the backup. I think the words arab and muslim get thrown around interchangeably a lot.

Less than 15% of the world's over one billion muslims are arabs. Arabs often make the attack of calling Americans "Jews" which is even less accurate.

Arabs and Jews have a long standing animosity towards one another, biblical you could say, and this was an issue in Roman Times, the Middle ages, and Modern times, unlike most conflicts, in a truly unceasing manner.

But they're not alone. There are groups in africa who have been fighting even longer.

But the best policy for US, IMHO, is to do some damage control and see that this conflict does not affect the rest of the world, including ourselves. There can be no doubt that arab attacks against americans are connected to our support for Israel.

Gaza is a tiny strip of land with a lot of people on it. Its of no military value to us, or really to Israel.

I think a lot of this bad policy is like a teenager with their parent's credit card. They just go on a spending spree because it's not their money. Israel has nothing to stop them, because of the US, just as our govt. has nothing to stop it spending money because it's not their money, it's ours.

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Monday, January 5, 2009 11:14 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:
It’s always the same story with you, Dreamtrove. Everytime a situation arises in Israel, it’s almost always, Hamas or Hezbollah or Fatah violating a ceasefire to kill Jews, and everytime, you insist it’s all Israeli fault who are killing the peaceful and innocent Palestinian terrorists. Basically, your position is it’s okay for Palestinians to kill Jews, but the Jews are wrong if they defend themselves, which means you want to see Jews killed. That’s the only logical way to explain the bias in your argument.

His anti-semitism does not seem to cover the entirety of his bias - he seems to also think it's OK for Al-Queda (a strictly Islamic-based organization) to attack New York and Washington, DC, but not for the U.S. to pursue the Reynolds Doctrine and kill 'em right back, nor preempt future attacks by killing them at home. Unless he considers All Americans to be Jews and included in his Kill-the-Jews bias.

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Tuesday, January 6, 2009 7:08 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by jewelstaitefan:
His anti-semitism does not seem to cover the entirety of his bias - he seems to also think it's OK for Al-Queda (a strictly Islamic-based organization) to attack New York and Washington, DC, but not for the U.S. to pursue the Reynolds Doctrine and kill 'em right back, nor preempt future attacks by killing them at home. Unless he considers All Americans to be Jews and included in his Kill-the-Jews bias.

I don’t think it’s as much anti-Semititism as it is an unhealthy sympathy for some romanticized depiction of the lone Islamic warrior. In much the same way that the Mafia or gangster lifestyle is romanticized in popular culture. The “good” vampire thing that is often portrayed in popular literature is the same kind of phenomenon. The difference is that most people realize that these are fictional archetypes. Dreamtrove doesn’t. That’s why he’s unable to see Hamas as having any culpability for actions. In his mind, Hamas is a noble band of freedom fighters. And to a certain extent he applies that same view of Al Qaeda and Hezbollah. I’ve tried to argue that this romantic view of his that aparts no blame to Islamic terrorists basically amounts to leaving the Jews to die. I don’t think he hates Jews or wants to see Jews die. I just think that he’s unable to separate his romantic view of these terrorists from reality.

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Tuesday, January 6, 2009 7:20 AM

RIVERLOVE

Quote:
Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:
... In much the same way that the Mafia or gangster lifestyle is romanticized in popular culture. The difference is that most people realize that these are fictional archetypes. Dreamtrove doesn’t. That’s why he’s unable to see Hamas as having any culpability for actions. In his mind, Hamas is a noble band of freedom fighters.

What's NOT noble about :
Strapping suicide bombs on children?
Strapping suicide bombs on mentally ill?
Hiding weapons inside mosques?
Hiding behind women & children during firefights?
Launching 3,000 missiles into civilian areas?

Those are all very noble things right?

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Tuesday, January 6, 2009 7:54 AM

PIRATECAT

I stand with the jews. I figure we owe em for being pansies during the thirties. Hell we bailed out the Limes and the French twice. Somewhere in the bible it says when the nations rise against Jerusalem God will smite her enemies. I don't wanna be on the outside when that goes down. Not a big Jesus fan but I do follow Barrabus. Kill the Romans.

"Battle of Serenity, Mal. Besides Zoe here, how many-" "I'm talkin at you! How many men in your platoon came out of their alive".

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Tuesday, January 6, 2009 9:27 AM

Okay, This is humorous. Here's the best part. Watching Finn self-destruct.

I posted that I was pro-Israel, and pro-Israel statements probably dozens of times over the years. Finn admitted openly that he never reads my posts.

I actually laughed out loud reading his post. He missed my posts blaming Hamas for the whole incident, or where I never glamorized Hamas. Hamas is despicable. They used to kill children intentionally just to start riots. But this isn't about Hamas, and it's not about the holocaust. This is about a few things.

1. Idiocy, being displayed. "Let's all pile on and hate the guy who isn't here." This is not a good policy for life. Finn and JTF are the only people on this forum who I have on permanent ignore, I have nothing against anyone else. These two attack me relentlessly, and have nothing to say, ever.

2. More Idiocy. The most simplistic analysis of humanity ever: Good and Evil.

Finn, you're an idiot.

Quote:
FINN
Hamas is a noble band of freedom fighters.

I'd like to nominate this for the dumbest thing posted, after Finn's personal hatefest against me blamed me for the holocaust.

But you're in danger, there's a bigger idiot here:

Quote:
JTF: he considers All Americans to be Jews and included in his Kill-the-Jews bias.

JTF, don't worry, if you need a swastika, I'm sure Finn has plenty to spare. He's the one who supported Al Qaeda after all. No, I'm not making this up.

3. Even more idiocy. Stand with the jews? Do you know any jews? I know lots of jews. They don't stand with Ohlmert. Have you check Ohlmert's popularity in Israel itself? and Israel's popularity with jews internationally? 15% of jews support Israel. Ohlmert has the lowest approval rating of any elected head of state in human history: 3%. (Source: TIME Magazine) Internationally, he is the most unpopular person in the world. Even among jews. Here are some other ones. Who do the jews stand with? Barack Obama, 60%, Joe Lieberman, 34%. George W. Bush, 15%.

4. I see no sides worth standing with in this conflict. Ohlmert and Hamas are totally devoid of redeeming characteristics.

Realize that Finn doesn't even know a single jewish person. He's never been to Israel. He is in this for one thing: Money. It's his job. His budget gets increased when there is more war. War is good for business for him. I'm not making this up. If and when the pentagon has supported the Islamic terrorist Mujahideen, aka, Al Qaeda, it gets support from Finn. Scroll through past posts by Finn, he has said all of this.

I'm not getting into a quarrel with Finn, I'm have no intention speaking to him. But I have the right to defend myself if he is going to make up stuff about me.

Consider that our military intelligence is engaged in this. Maybe I should forward this to them, and then they could fire him.

I don't know whether he hates me on a personal level outside of the forum, or just because I keep reminding people of why he supports war.

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Tuesday, January 6, 2009 11:22 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by dreamtrove:
I actually laughed out loud reading his post. He missed my posts blaming Hamas for the whole incident, or where I never glamorized Hamas. Hamas is despicable. They used to kill children intentionally just to start riots. But this isn't about Hamas, and it's not about the holocaust. This is about a few things.

This from the person who claimed that Hamas had no culpability at all. I’m glad to see that you’ve finally come to realize that you were wrong.

Did dreamtrove just say that I don’t know a single Jewish Person? How does he know that? Doesn’t that seem a bit unlikely?

How does dreamtrove know that I support Al Qaeda?

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Tuesday, January 6, 2009 11:37 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Riverlove:
Quote:
Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:
... In much the same way that the Mafia or gangster lifestyle is romanticized in popular culture. The difference is that most people realize that these are fictional archetypes. Dreamtrove doesn’t. That’s why he’s unable to see Hamas as having any culpability for actions. In his mind, Hamas is a noble band of freedom fighters.

What's NOT noble about :
Strapping suicide bombs on children?
Strapping suicide bombs on mentally ill?
Hiding weapons inside mosques?
Hiding behind women & children during firefights?
Launching 3,000 missiles into civilian areas?

Those are all very noble things right?

What’s noble about murder? What’s noble about rape? What’s noble about selling drugs to minors? Yet, still Innercity gangs are romanticized and glamorized by American popular culture. This is all too common mindset. It’s a naïve one, but it exists.

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Tuesday, January 6, 2009 12:39 PM