Thank God for Texas by Wulfenstar

REAL WORLD EVENT DISCUSSIONS

Thank God for Texas

POSTED BY: WULFENSTAR
UPDATED: Monday, January 12, 2009 03:45
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Wednesday, January 7, 2009 7:27 AM

WULFENSTAR

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg

...and its Castle Doctrine.

http://www.mysanantonio.com/news/Man_shoots_home_invaders_killing_1.ht
ml?d=s

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Wednesday, January 7, 2009 8:20 AM

RIGHTEOUS9

Okay, so legitimate use of lethal force, as much as the whole thing saddens me.

Are you going to seriously suggest that somebody would be prosecuted for that in any other state than Texas though?

doubtful. the men were armed. It's pretty clear cut self-defense.

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Wednesday, January 7, 2009 8:33 AM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)

Would they be charged in another state, or another city? Quite possibly. Texas' Castle Doctrine (and we're not unique by any stretch - last time I checked, I think it's 17 states that now have them) also states that not only do you have the right to defend yourself and your property, but the family of the "victim" (aka perp, aka criminal) can't come back and sue you for wrongful death, damages, or any of that crap.

Does this instance sadden me? Yup, a little. Not near as much as if the outcome had been turned around, and it were the homeowner killed and his wife in critical condition. And I'm sad because, even with the law on his side, and even if the investigation totally clears him, the homeowner is going to go through a world of shit because of this, and it may well bankrupt him before all is said and done. Not to mention the psychological toll it will take, even though he may KNOW he was in the right.

Mike

"It is complete now; the hands of time are neatly tied."

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Wednesday, January 7, 2009 8:57 AM

RIGHTEOUS9

quite possibly on what grounds?

there would likely be an investigation, as there always is.

I'm not going to be resolute in my scepticism, but does anybody have a case in mind with nearly identical circumstances where the homeowner was prosecuted for manslaughter?

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Wednesday, January 7, 2009 9:30 AM

HERO

Quote:
Originally posted by Righteous9:
Are you going to seriously suggest that somebody would be prosecuted for that in any other state than Texas though?

Not in most places.

I could see the type of gun used being an issue. Suppose he shot them with an illegally modified fully automatic assault rifle or a shotgun that was sawed too short. So while a murder charge is unlikely, a gun violation could happen (happened to a local cab driver who shot a man trying to rob him and got prosecuted for carrying a concealed weapon...not by me, I was in lawschool back then and I'd have given the guy a medal and slipped him twenty bucks to go buy more ammo).

Is the homeowner a convicted felon or someone with any sort of gun prohibition (like a Domestic Violence conviction)?

Were the intruders retreating? Were they shot in the back? Is race a factor? All these could lead to charges other then murder for which self-defense is not a defense.

Quote:

Police are investigating whether the attempted home invasion was a robbery or if the intruders had another motive.

Then again...was this a robbery? There are other possibilities...drug deal gone bad, etc. Complete information might turn self defense into felony murder.

I note for the record that if someone breaks into my house I'm shooting the son of a bitch...twice. Then I'm taking his wallet...

H

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Wednesday, January 7, 2009 9:51 AM

KWICKO

Quote:
Originally posted by Hero:
Quote:
Originally posted by Righteous9:
Are you going to seriously suggest that somebody would be prosecuted for that in any other state than Texas though?

Not in most places.

I could see the type of gun used being an issue. Suppose he shot them with an illegally modified fully automatic assault rifle or a shotgun that was sawed too short. So while a murder charge is unlikely, a gun violation could happen (happened to a local cab driver who shot a man trying to rob him and got prosecuted for carrying a concealed weapon...not by me, I was in lawschool back then and I'd have given the guy a medal and slipped him twenty bucks to go buy more ammo).

Yeah, I think most places, the gun charge would be dramatically reduced if the shooting was otherwise "legit".

Quote:

Is the homeowner a convicted felon or someone with any sort of gun prohibition (like a Domestic Violence conviction)?

Were the intruders retreating? Were they shot in the back? Is race a factor? All these could lead to charges other then murder for which self-defense is not a defense.

Under the Texas statute, they don't necessarily have to be retreating, or even threatening your life. It's even worded so that you can use deadly force to protect your PROPERTY (not just your life - here, by law, you're allowed to protect your property with deadly force) against something as simple as vandalism. In other words, if someone is tagging your fence, you may be within your rights to blow them away. Seems just a li'l bit extreme to me, but that's Texas...

Quote:

Quote:

Police are investigating whether the attempted home invasion was a robbery or if the intruders had another motive.

Then again...was this a robbery? There are other possibilities...drug deal gone bad, etc. Complete information might turn self defense into felony murder.

Yup, might have been something else, which is why there will be an investigation. And the reason it will cost the homeowner a shit-tonne of money? Because if he's even a little bit smart, he's going to hire a lawyer to make damn sure that it gets looked at as a righteous kill instead of shovelled in a file as something else.

Quote:

I note for the record that if someone breaks into my house I'm shooting the son of a bitch...twice. Then I'm taking his wallet...

H

Well, at least then you can honestly say that robbery was the motive. You're just not saying who was robbing whom! :)

Mike

"It is complete now; the hands of time are neatly tied."

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Wednesday, January 7, 2009 9:56 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

I noticed this in the article -

Quote:
The shootings happened two days after a West Side homeowner shot and injured a 15-year-old boy as the teen and his father attempted to break into a residence. The 33-year-old homeowner was not charged in Monday's shooting. {In that incident} A man and his son tried to break into a far West Side home on Monday, police said, but failed when the homeowner shot and injured the 15-year-old boy.

What is that?

Texas family values?

And here's ANOTHER thing Texas can be proud of!-

Texas no longer tops in teen pregnancy

Mississippi has taken it's place. Whoo hooo!!!

Yes, thank god for Texas! If it (and Bush) disappeared off the map we'd no longer have anything to laugh at!!

Justfunningisall.

---------------------------------
Let's party like its 1929.

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Wednesday, January 7, 2009 10:04 AM

KWICKO

Quote:

Yes, thank god for Texas! If it (and Bush) disappeared off the map we'd no longer have anything to laugh at!!

There'll always be Florida. Well, until the sea levels rise, that is. :)

Mike

"It is complete now; the hands of time are neatly tied."

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Wednesday, January 7, 2009 10:20 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

BWAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!

Thanks for taking it in the spirit in which it was intended!

BTW, one of my sibs lives in McKinney.

Her neighbors routinely call Bush "That monkey"

Was that ... YOU?

---------------------------------
Let's party like its 1929.

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Wednesday, January 7, 2009 10:39 AM

KWICKO

Nope, not me. Calling Bush a monkey is an insult to monkeys. Monkeys can learn, AND they can be trained. :)

Mike

"It is complete now; the hands of time are neatly tied."

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Wednesday, January 7, 2009 10:53 AM

STORYMARK

Well, at least now we have proof that Mr. Law 'n Order Hero is willing to ignore the laws he don't like.

"I thoroughly disapprove of duels. If a man should challenge me, I would take him kindly and forgivingly by the hand and lead him to a quiet place and kill him."

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Wednesday, January 7, 2009 12:07 PM

DREAMTROVE

I like the name, Sgt. Slaughter.
I think he has a career in film, or perhaps as a graphic novel character.

Oh, and here's a hallelujah for the gaza thread. It now edges towards 200 posts! And it's all venom! And undoubtedly much of it is on govt. time, but it keeps the trolls busy. We should make more like it.

Throw a dog a bone. I think we should start some more. Anyone want to do one on abortion? Gay marriage? We could have one on Iraq, or 9-11. I think we could tie up time completely. I'm a novice at this, so, John, Frem, you guys might have to help me out.

Here goes nothing.

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Wednesday, January 7, 2009 1:06 PM

KIRKULES

Quote:
Originally posted by Storymark:
Well, at least now we have proof that Mr. Law 'n Order Hero is willing to ignore the laws he don't like.

It's a prosecutors job to use their discretion to make sure the spirit of the law is honored. Often it depends on the intent of the individual. If you are pulled over by a policeman and you have a concealed weapon under you car seat, and the officer asks if you have any concealed weapons, you better say yes. If you say no, and they find the weapon you could be looking at 5 years in prison because you have demonstrated the intent to conceal. If you say yes, in some states often the officer will use his discretion and will just ask you to put it in the trunk and send you on your way. Discretion by prosecutors and police is what keeps or system from being bogged down with unwinnable cases.

Don't carry a concealed weapon without a permit, because in many states you will be prosecuted regardless of your intent.

Also, on the issue of illegally modified weapons. I would bet 50% or more of those possessing them don't even know they're illegal. When you have stupid laws that make putting a pistol grip on the fore-stock of a pistol a felony, you need intelligent prosecutors to use discretion.

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Wednesday, January 7, 2009 5:37 PM

FREMDFIRMA

In Maryland, particularly Baltimore City that guy would be tossed in jail so fast he wouldn't know what hit him, IF they didn't beat him half to death on the way.

D.C. aka Death City is every bit as bad.
How do you think those hellholes GOT that way ?

That's one reason I have such a gripe about villainising self-defense, cause I've seen the results, having grown up in one of the resultant hellholes, AND been arrested more than twice for pure self defense, nearly being thrown in the slam for two years for unarmed self defense against a drunk with a broken off pool cue who mistook me for someone else.

That was the case where the public defender *they* issued me kept trying to enter a guilty plea (which'd been 2 years in min security) over my objections and demands till I decked his ass and stood as my own attorney* - and was exhonorated, although I did get fined for contempt for decking the SOB... he had it comin though.

-Frem
*And learned to have my own attorney on standby, too, a man so vile you'd swear I summoned him from a pentacle on the floor, and he's DAMN good at keeping the State off my back.

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Wednesday, January 7, 2009 5:58 PM

GEEZER

Keep the Shiny side up

Quote:
Originally posted by Fremdfirma:
*And learned to have my own attorney on standby, too, a man so vile you'd swear I summoned him from a pentacle on the floor, and he's DAMN good at keeping the State off my back.

One of the common suggestions for those getting a CCW permit is to have an understanding with an attorney.

"Keep the Shiny side up"

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Wednesday, January 7, 2009 6:15 PM

DREAMTROVE

Here, as you know, the police would ignore it, even if he took the body out into the woods and buried it and didn't tell anyone. If there were woods.

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Wednesday, January 7, 2009 7:09 PM

JRC

"Thank God for Texas"

You're welcome.

I'm sure the rest of the country (even Maryland) appreciates a little

thinning-out of the gene pool.

Everyone dies alone.

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Thursday, January 8, 2009 10:59 AM

HERO

Quote:
Originally posted by Kirkules:
If you are pulled over by a policeman and you have a concealed weapon under you car seat, and the officer asks if you have any concealed weapons, you better say yes. If you say no, and they find the weapon you could be looking at 5 years in prison because you have demonstrated the intent to conceal.

In Ohio its a felony to fail to disclose the weapon when asked, permit or not (its a condition of the permit that you agreed to when you applied for it).

Have a nice fella charged that way right now. I plan to give him a misdemeanor if he gives up the gun. Real expensive Glock...hoping we can send it to the PD rather then the steel mill.

H

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Thursday, January 8, 2009 11:11 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Hero gets off on power, no matter how trivial.

---------------------------------
Let's party like its 1929.

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Thursday, January 8, 2009 11:29 AM

WULFENSTAR

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg

Hero?

Really? Why?

Give him back the tool he uses to defend himself and slap him with a fine.

Thats justice. Thats fair.

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Thursday, January 8, 2009 12:05 PM

KIRKULES

Quote:
Originally posted by Hero:
Quote:
Originally posted by Kirkules:
If you are pulled over by a policeman and you have a concealed weapon under you car seat, and the officer asks if you have any concealed weapons, you better say yes. If you say no, and they find the weapon you could be looking at 5 years in prison because you have demonstrated the intent to conceal.

In Ohio its a felony to fail to disclose the weapon when asked, permit or not (its a condition of the permit that you agreed to when you applied for it).

Have a nice fella charged that way right now. I plan to give him a misdemeanor if he gives up the gun. Real expensive Glock...hoping we can send it to the PD rather then the steel mill.

H

A Florida concealed weapons permit is honored by something like 35 other States, but you need to know the law in each individual State. Some States require that you hand your Permit to a Police Officer with your drivers license whenever you are pulled over. Other States restrict the type of weapon you can carry. In Florida you can carry a Switchblade, Blackjack, Handgun or other non lethal weapons, other States might only allow a Handgun.

Those from States that don't allow concealed carry might not be aware that you don't need to be a Florida resident to get a Florida concealed weapons permit. You still wouldn't be able to carry a concealed weapon in your own State, but you could in other States that honor Florida permits, except those that require your permit be from your home State.

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Thursday, January 8, 2009 4:55 PM

FREMDFIRMA

True that - my first CCW was actually a blade.

Strangely, due to various quirks of law, I can carry, but not "conceal" my old Kabar Widowmaker, which would kind of defeat the purpose of carrying the cursed thing in the first place, if it weren't so useful for tool purposes more than anything else.

-F

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Monday, January 12, 2009 3:45 AM

HERO

Quote:
Originally posted by Wulfenstar:
Hero?

Really? Why?

Give him back the tool he uses to defend himself and slap him with a fine.

Thats justice. Thats fair.

Is it really? The legislature in its infinite wisdom says that a person with a permit failing to disclose a firearm to the officer is a felony. Its in the permit paperwork and its specifically taught as part of the class they have to take (and its common sense).

Now I got a guy here who I believe committed the offense...he must plead guilty or go to trial. The mitigating factor is his complete lack of record and that his omission was unintentional (also the cops vouched for him). I weigh all these factors and keep in mind the most important consideration must always be Officer safety. We recently lost an officer who was killed by someone with a CCW permit and a licensed weapon.

Weighing all the factors I decide to give him a break and reduce his charge from a felony to a misdemeanor. The new charge is an M-1 (up to 6 months in jail and $1,000 fine). I ask for suspended jail time and a $250 fine AND he gives up the gun. I consider the offense that serious. But he keeps his permit, this offense will not bar him from getting it renewed, and he can buy another firearm. Cops get the gun for department use. Lesson learned, no real harm done.

Defendant is happy (no jail, can keep permit), cops happy (guy learned lesson, hey...nice gun), Def atty happy (my client didn't have to eat felony or go to jail), and I'm happy (Battlestar Galactica comes back Friday).

It all worked out.

H

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