Lesson learned: First you find a ghetto ... by rue

REAL WORLD EVENT DISCUSSIONS

Lesson learned: First you find a ghetto ...

POSTED BY: RUE
UPDATED: Friday, January 9, 2009 11:33
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Thursday, January 8, 2009 7:56 PM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Quote:
Again and again and again, both Hamas and the Israeli government are the bad guys.

Again and again? Where did you say this the FIRST time? Perhaps I missed a previous post, but this sounds like newfound objectivity.

In any case, although both sides share the same tactics, Israel is bigger. MUCH bigger. Israel controls Gaza's borders and economy, not the other way around.

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Let's party like its 1929.

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Thursday, January 8, 2009 10:21 PM

FREMDFIRMA

Mikey, would you like to know why your earlier idea would not work ?

Firstoff, to shame an opponent requires that they and their supporters have a conscience - to date I've seen utterly no evidence that this is the case.

Second, the mainstream media has their heads buried right up the Izzies asses kissing away right along with most world leaders, notice how anything the IDF mouthpieces say is taken as gospel and yet anything the other side says is considered bullshit by anyone but Al-Jazeera ?

Third, coverage problems... see, even if they DID that, you can bet your ass by the time CNN got there, or was *allowed* to go there, those bodies would be sporting bomb vests with an AK-47 in hand, wouldn't they ?

Cause you know what *happens* to non-embedded journalists around there - hell, even WE fired on em ourselves in Iraq, with tanks, and didn't even try to hide it, much less bombing Al-Jazeera ourselves cause they weren't toeing the propaganda line close enough for our liking.

And fourth, who would care ? all the same people who already KNOW THIS, but support the damn Izzies anyway ?

Dude, the IDF would machinegun them to death, slap some AK's in their hands, strap some vests to the corpses and then play it up to the media AND use it as an "attack" and excuse to bomb the camps some more - remember these are the same assholes who initially tried to say Rachel Corrie attacked the bulldozer operator.

Playing nice isn't going to work, and rocketing or bombing the other sides joe average peons isn't gonna accomplish nothin but drawing down a massive asskicking on their own people, who aren't going to rise up against a government that has a habit of slaughtering wholesale, man woman and child without restraint, whenever given the flimsiest excuse to do so.

Back the in day, the Arab world had an answer to that exact same kind of bullshit at the hands of the Crusaders, and it was called the Hashshashin.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hashshashin

To hell with clipping joe peons, start ganking leaders in their safe little homes, and you can bet your ass they'll come to the negotiating table damned quickly.

-Frem
It cannot be said enough, those who do not learn from history, are doomed to endlessly repeat it

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Friday, January 9, 2009 4:11 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Peeps in general will follow those who deliver the economic and liberty goods. The only way Israel can stop the madness is to support a prosperous Palestinian state. But they're doing the exact opposite: they pushed the original Palestinians onto a small worthless piece of land* from which it is impossible to make an agricultural living (the Palestinians' original occupation), encircled it with a wall, embargoed trade, fiddled with their utilities, blocked health care and IRC aid, and feel free to shoot/ invade/ bomb these fish in a barrel from time to time... Shit, man, if YOU were stuck in that hellhole created by somebody else, what would YOU do?

BTW- Gaza is so densely populated it is basically one giant city. I STILL can't help thinking of the Warsaw ghetto.

-----------------

Geezer, I am NOT trying to say that Hamas is Robin Hood. Both parties are at fault. BUT... and this is the big one- Israel has overwhelming superiority. When I see two kids fighting, I look to the BIG ONES to do the right thing because they have no excuse for cowardice.

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Let's party like its 1929.

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Friday, January 9, 2009 4:25 AM

FINN MAC CUMHAL

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
Geezer, I am NOT trying to say that Hamas is Robin Hood. Both parties are at fault. BUT... and this is the big one- Israel has overwhelming superiority. When I see two kids fighting, I look to the BIG ONES to do the right thing because they have no excuse for cowardice.

No? But then you go to extreme efforts to argue that the last 50 years of the Arab-Israeli war as if there were no Arabs who ever held a hand in anger. As if there was no PLO and no Arafat and no Intafada and no Hezbollah and no Jordan, Syria, Egypt, Iraq and Iran repeatedly invading Israel. You’re interpretation of Israel’s conduct is tantamount to a history of World War II that ignores the existence of the Axis powers.

Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.

Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.

-- Cicero

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Friday, January 9, 2009 4:31 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

I'm not interested in what people THINK they're doing, or their "reasons" or "motivations" or "rationalizations" or their "history". I look at what they DO, their actual effect on themselves and those around them.

---------------------------------
Let's party like its 1929.

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Friday, January 9, 2009 4:34 AM

FINN MAC CUMHAL

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
I'm not interested in what people THINK they're doing, or their "reasons" or "motivations" or "rationalizations" or their "history". I look at what they DO, their actual effect on themselves and those around them.

If they’re Israelis. If they’re Hamas you ignore what they’re doing outright.

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Friday, January 9, 2009 5:13 AM

GEEZER

Keep the Shiny side up

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
Quote:
Again and again and again, both Hamas and the Israeli government are the bad guys.
Again and again? Where did you say this the FIRST time? Perhaps I missed a previous post, but this sounds like newfound objectivity.

Earlier in this thread.

"The politicos on both sides are kept in power by the fears of their people, and they don't mind getting a few killed to maintain the fear. There ain't no good or bad guys. There ain't no right or wrong sides. Both are bad and both are wrong. Hamas headquarters in in Syria, so they aren't worried about getting hurt, and the Israeli government ain't going near the fighting."

and

"Once again, you seem to think this is good guys versus bad guys. Wrong. Both Hamas(the Gaza government) and the Israeli goverment are the bad guys. The Israeli government has to do the incursions into Palestinian areas to give the impression they're protecting Israel from terrorism and to get money from the world Jewish community. Hamas has to provoke Israeli incursions, dispatch suicide bombers, and provide martyrs to get money from the world Islamic community.

Honestly, I'm not trying to defend Israel in this situation. I'm just trying to make you understand that Hamas is not Robin Hood."

From the "Israel about to get its ass kicked" thread,

"I'm not trying to make this recent breach of the truce any one side's fault, since there's plenty of fault to go around."

and

"Either Hamas or the hawks in the Israeli government could have engineered the latest breach of the truce, since it's in both their perceived best interests to keep the pot boiling. If it wasn't for the innocent folk getting killed on both sides, I'd prefer that the world back off and let them grind each other to dust."

and

"You seem to be laboring under the misapprehension that I'm trying to defend or justify Israel's actions. Nothing cold be further from the truth. I figure they're screwing the pooch big time in relation to Gaza and the Palestinians in general, and have been doing so for quite some time. I just think that Hamas shares the blame for the current circumstances, since they (like the Israeli government) require an aggressive posture, backed by frequent armed conflict and a steady supply of martyrs, to stay in power. The folk of Gaza, when given a choice between the hardline Hamas and a more conciliatory Fatah, chose the hardliners, just as the folk of Israel chose a hardline government. Their mistake, in my opinion."

"Keep the Shiny side up"

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Friday, January 9, 2009 6:20 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Quote:
If they’re Israelis. If they’re Hamas you ignore what they’re doing outright.

Finn, do you have your head up your ass?

I'm not ingoring Hamas. If we go back in history, we'll find... and keep re-creating... enough bad blood on both sides to justify warfare to extinction. The problem is... Where do they go from here??? I dont' care about justifications. But IMHO the onus for SOLVING the problem, not perpetuatintg it, goes to the biggest power.

Do you know what one definition of insanity is?

Doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.

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Let's party like its 1929.

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Friday, January 9, 2009 6:23 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

GEEZER: I did't read the "Israel about to get its ass kicked" thread.

Apparently I missed many of your posts which lay blame on both sides.

Still, it's not a blame-game. And peeps (Zionists, Hamas) who turn it into one are only perpetuating the problem. And that goes for us, too. THAT discussion is misdirected.

---------------------------------
Let's party like its 1929.

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Friday, January 9, 2009 6:45 AM

PIRATENEWS

John Lee, conspiracy therapist at Hollywood award-winner History Channel-mocked SNL-spoofed PirateNew.org wooHOO!!!!!!

Quote:
Originally posted by Riverlove:
Too bad the Jews who rose up to fight the Nazis during the Ghetto Uprising didn't have Iran to supply them with missiles, rockets, machine guns, RPGs, IEDs, ammunition and cash. Might have made their brave and historic effort a bit more successful.

Israel founded Hamas to attack the PLO, and Israel controls Hamas to "justify" Israeli massacres. USA and UK also openly fund Hamas.

The Jews WERE the Nazis.

Jewish dictionaries define AshkeNazi as "Wandering Jew".

Bastard Adolf Hitler Schicklegruber was heir to the Jewish Rothschild bankster cartel that owns half the world's wealth, including the private "Federal" Reserve Bank that counterfeits all "US dollar bills" (FRN Debt Notes) and keeps all IRS income taxes, same for British pound sterling and taxes.

All top Nazis were Jewish, including Luftwaffe commander Herman Goering and Gestapo chief Reinhardt Heidrich in charge of the Final Solution.

This is according to Jewish historians in History Channel and CSPAN.

The Khazar AshekeNazi non-Semitic fake "Jews" (Hitler et al) mainly targeted the Semitic Separdic "real" Jews for the death camps. Khazar Jews in Israel today massacred 100,000 Sephardic Jewish chidren in radiation "experiements" in Israel, funded by Khazar Jews in USA (ethnic clensing of REAL Jews from Israel).

Hitler was a Zionist. Zionists want to kill Jews to "justify" stealing Palestine to recreate "Israel". Zionists in USA and UK blocked Jewish refugees in WW2, to raise the death count, to "justify" theft of "Israel".

Winston Churchill was Jewish. So was General President Eisenhower and mafiya brothel owner President Truman. They assassinated General Patton who wanted to rescue 50,000 US/UK POWs kidnapped by Jewish Communists in Russia. The 50,000 POWs are still in Russian gulags, or dead. President FDR was also accused of being Jewish.

Russian Commie Joseph "Stalin" had 3 Jewish wives and was allegedly part Jewish. Jews invented Communism in London England with Jew Karl Marx. Jews ran the Commie gulags in Russia that Holocausted over 50-million Russian citizens, as proven by gulag survivor and Nobel Prize winner Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn (that book "Two Hundred Years Together" is still banned by the Jews in USA and Western Europe, and has never been translated into English). Jews at Wikipedia have locked that webpage, and ban a webpage for that book.
www.thecivicplatform.com/2007/11/17/alexander-solzhenitsyn-and-the-jew
s/
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aleksandr_Solzhenitsyn

Quote:
UNCENSORED PARTIAL ENGLISH TRANSLATION

The Solzhenitsyn Reader: New and Essential Writings, 1947-2005
http://isteve.blogspot.com/2006/10/important-literary-historiographica
l.html

The only reason my uncle survived as a POW was a massive airlift of 10,000 POWs from his camp, as the Russians moved in to capture and enslave (not liberate) them. Now his daughter is on the Tennessee Supreme Court. If he had been murdered by the Jewish Communists, she would not have been born. The only reason she is on the Supreme Court is because she married a Jewish lawyer, and she refuses to read Jewish history (thus is doomed to repeat it). She and her daughters are banned from citizenship in Israel because they do not have Jewish mommies, and she would be arrested for a felony if she tried to give a Bible to a Jew in Israel.
www.geocities.com/snetterton_b17_pow_mia

Death to Israel, the arch enemy of USA.

Since USA refuses to attack Israel (or at least stop giving them out taxdollars and kick them out of USA), USA will die by Civil War in the next 10 years, according to Wall Street experts.

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Friday, January 9, 2009 7:26 AM

RIVERLOVE

For such a magnificent Jew hater you sure don't know your Nazis very well. Reinhard Heidrich was killed by the Czech underground when they ambushed his car on a country road. His boss, Heinrich Himmler ordered the destruction of the town of Lidice as a reprisal, and all the people there were slaughtered. Adolf Eichmann was given the task of planning the Final Solution. Mass shootings and mobile extermination vehicles just weren't doing a good enough job for them.

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Friday, January 9, 2009 7:40 AM

BYTEMITE

I'm no expert on the Isreal conflict. Nor am I one on WWII and able to make analogies on ghetto uprisings.

But these truces between Isreal and Hamas seem like a farce.

Everyone should have the right to defend themselves if they come under attack, but I don't think that's the point here, it's moved beyond that for both sides.

Isreal knows full well that no government can control every single discontented citizen (and there are definitely a lot). It's an unreasonable condition to even stipulate, makes any truce doomed eventually to fail if they always respond with violence when that condition inevitably can't be met. Seems almost like they want to fight, an aggressive stance to secure their own security by pushing out against the surrounding regions.

And Hamas... If an American citizen were to take action against a hostile nation we have a truce with, is blame limited to the citizen, or is the citizen acting in the interests of their government, and so the government is accountable? Would Hamas actually seek out and punish these citizens for breaking the truce, if it was indeed the citizens on their own? My impression is they wouldn't, because ideologically Hamas supports fighting with Isreal, wants to (I think), but can't justify their losses if there were outright warfare.

So all these truces between them do is set the stage for more fighting. And that's what seems like what both governments want. In the meantime, people are dying in the middle, Isreali and Palestinian. Children who never picked up a gun or rocket launcher or strapped bombs to themselves, and their families, just trying their best to survive.

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Friday, January 9, 2009 8:02 AM

RIVERLOVE

Hamas IS the governemnt there. The moderate PA (formerly PLO) headed by Abbas has been rendered powerless by Hamas. That's sorta the problem. If it wasn't for the horrible civilian body count, the PA would thank Israel for liberating them from Hamas. Then there would be a real opportunity for a 2-state settlement and maybe peace.

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Friday, January 9, 2009 8:16 AM

PIRATENEWS

John Lee, conspiracy therapist at Hollywood award-winner History Channel-mocked SNL-spoofed PirateNew.org wooHOO!!!!!!

Quote:
Originally posted by Riverlove:
For such a magnificent Jew hater you sure don't know your Nazis very well. Reinhard Heidrich was killed by the Czech underground when they ambushed his car on a country road. His boss, Heinrich Himmler ordered the destruction of the town of Lidice as a reprisal, and all the people there were slaughtered. Adolf Eichmann was given the task of planning the Final Solution. Mass shootings and mobile extermination vehicles just weren't doing a good enough job for them.

Guess you never heard of History Channel.

Heidrich planned the Final Solution. Eichmann was also Jewish.

You are an anti-Semite.

I'm trying to save lives of millions of Semites who you want to Holocaust.

I'm also trying to save USA from the fake "Jews".

I look forward to "Jewish" Hate Crime thoughtcrime laws from Hussein Obama and his pet homo Israeli Jew Rahmbo. Those Hate Crime laws will allow your immediate arrest, and the arrest of all "Jews". This is a concept that criminals never comprehend when they hijack govt.

Amerikan taxdollars at work, borrowed from the Jewish "Federal" Reserve Bankstas

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Friday, January 9, 2009 8:19 AM

PIRATENEWS

John Lee, conspiracy therapist at Hollywood award-winner History Channel-mocked SNL-spoofed PirateNew.org wooHOO!!!!!!

Quote:
Originally posted by Riverlove:
Hamas IS the governemnt there. The moderate PA (formerly PLO) headed by Abbas has been rendered powerless by Hamas. That's sorta the problem. If it wasn't for the horrible civilian body count, the PA would thank Israel for liberating them from Hamas. Then there would be a real opportunity for a 2-state settlement and maybe peace.

THAT'S why Israel founded and ran Hamas.

Mission Accompliced.

Hamas created by Mossad
http://globalresearch.ca/articles/ZER403A.html

Israel attacked USS Liberty to blame Egypt to "justify" 1967 War
http://video.google.com/videosearch?q=uss+liberty&hl=en&emb=0&aq=f#

Mexican border: Israeli citizen Chertoff is director of US Dept of Homeland Security

Israeli citizen Chertoff's name is "Son of the Devil" in Russian
Chertoff was born in Commie Czechoslovakia, his terrorist mommy founded Mossad

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Friday, January 9, 2009 8:23 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Huh.

Well, we more or less created the mujahideen 'cause we thought it was also a "smart strategy" so.... stranger things have happened.

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Let's party like its 1929.

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Friday, January 9, 2009 8:28 AM

PIRATENEWS

John Lee, conspiracy therapist at Hollywood award-winner History Channel-mocked SNL-spoofed PirateNew.org wooHOO!!!!!!

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
Huh.

Well, we more or less created the mujahideen 'cause we thought it was also a "smart strategy" so.... stranger things have happened.

The NWO Plan is working perfectly.

Quote:

Obama's Jewish Polish advisor Zbigniew Brezinski founded AllCIAduh, hanging out with CIA/MI6 employee USAma Bin Laden in British Pakistan for President Jimmy Carter

"I would like to assure the world that I did not plan the recent attacks.”
—Usama bin Laden, CNN, "Bin Laden says he wasn't behind attacks," September 17, 2001
http://archives.cnn.com/2001/US/09/16/inv.binladen.denial/

"We've never made the case, or argued the case that somehow Osama bin Laden was directly involved in 9/11. That evidence has never been forthcoming."
—Dick Cheney, "Interview of the Vice President by Tony Snow", March 29, 2006
www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2006/03/20060329-2.html

"I don't regret setting bombs. I feel we didn't do enough. Kill all the rich people. Break up their cars and apartments. Bring the revolution home, kill your parents, that's where it's really at. Everything was absolutely ideal on the day I bombed the Pentagon.''
-Professor Bill Ayers, FBI/CIA employee and confessed bomber of NYPD HQ, US Capitol, NY Supreme Court, bombed and killed two female bombers in his house, busted CIA LSD mind-control agent Timothy Leary out of prison, confessed to 12 bombings but never prosecuted, author of Barack Hussien Obama Sotoro's authorized biography and grant recipient of Obama's Annenberg Foundation

Bill Ayers, Professor of Education, University of Illinois at Chicago

www.deliberatedumbingdown.com

Hussein Obama Soetoro's granny says Hussein was born in British Kenya, and his lawyers admitted that in federal court:
www.obamacrimes.com

"This sucker (Amerika) is going to go DOWN!"
-George W Bush, meeting with McCain and Obama for their $8.5-Tillion bankrobbery on Wall Street, The London Herald, 26 Sept 2008
http://piratenews-tv.blogspot.com/2008/10/jews-gone-wild-this-sucker-a
merika-is.html

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Friday, January 9, 2009 11:25 AM

FINN MAC CUMHAL

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
I'm not ingoring Hamas. If we go back in history, we'll find... and keep re-creating... enough bad blood on both sides to justify warfare to extinction. The problem is... Where do they go from here??? I dont' care about justifications. But IMHO the onus for SOLVING the problem, not perpetuatintg it, goes to the biggest power.

You’re not ignoring Hamas? Well let’s see, first you claimed that Hamas was blameless because as the (according to rue) legitimate government of the Gaza Strip they refused to prevent attacks against Israel, which repeatedly violated the ceasefire. Now that that argument has fallen apart, you’re claiming that Hamas is blameless because Israel is bigger. So okay, you got me there, Israel is bigger. I guess, you’re argument is that if a smaller country decides to wage continuous war on the larger country then it is the responsibility of the bigger country to solve the problem as it were. Fine, Israel is currently solving the problem.

And as it turns out, PirateNews is still crazier then you are. That’s worth something.

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Friday, January 9, 2009 11:33 AM

DREAMTROVE

Quote:
Reinhard Heidrich was killed by the Czech underground when they ambushed his car on a country road. His boss, Heinrich Himmler ordered the destruction of the town of Lidice as a reprisal, and all the people there were slaughtered. Adolf Eichmann was given the task of planning the Final Solution.

River

True. He had a little Dacha outside Prague which has a notorious history. Noblemen used to go their as a retreat, and some Baron ruled from there at some point. After the Nazis left, it became KGB headquarters, and now it's a seminary for the Southern Baptists. It's a nice place, I've stayed there. Somewhat unnerving, since it's the same building my great grandparents were tortured in. But I can see why the power always chooses places like this: Because they can.

I'm dubious of the final solution as it was portraying in our media. I think that there was probably a lot more work them to death than anything else. It's entirely possible that Heidrich had a part in it, since he was intensely evil and hated. Hence the incident you refer to. He was picked off on his way into Prague, on a road I've been on many times.

My guess is that, while it may be wrong, it's based on a a lot of research, much of it second hand, working with a holocaust historian and all, my guess is that it was worked out to shift the jewish relocation program which had been sold to the German people, into slave labor camps, was made at a fairly early stage in the game, but that it wasn't the original intention.

I suspect that much of what we here is fantasy, which existed at the time and still does: much of our history is based on fantastic stories that make great boogiemen, but that most Nazis were just run of the mill evil. It was more profitable to use the jews as slave labor than to ship them out. The deniers always site the lack of documentation to support the holocaust, but I think that's because they're looking in German govt. files, rather than in corporate records. The hate was there, sure, but it needed the greed.

Remember, the slave traders killed 11 million slaves, and who knows how many more in wars to capture them, and no one really has any idea how many native Americans were killed by European invasions. There certainly is a lot of fudging of figures by a lot of people on this topic, from both sides. The "polish jewish population explosion" of the 1920s is a theory that was proposed to explain how 3 million jews could be captures in a country that only had 1.2 million jews in it.

My own guess as to what went down? a few things:

1. There probably were more than 6 million jews killed, but a large number of them were wearing soviet uniforms. A number were wearing Nazi uniforms. It was an option available to a german jew willing to serve, or whatever they called a half-jew, they had some name for it, word slips my mind at the moment. The whole thing was absurd, since the European jews were by blood mostly and sometimes entirely european, due to in part, long term mixing, and in part, large conversions to judaism in I think it was the 12th century when the church banned money handling by christians.

Anyway, since it was often hard to tell who a jew was anyway, by the end, a lot of random poles were being picked up as jewish, because the camps needed labor, and the Germans had no objection to killing poles (the camp that the current pope volunteered for pre-dated the jewish extermination camps, it exterminated poles.) So, it was a tradition, so to speak.

It's hard to sort the whole thing out. In spite of the 600,000 list you definitely have at least 4 million dying in camps, at least two million of those being jewish, but the nazis were killed people all over eastern europe and russia, a lot of whom were jewish, and sure, there are plenty of examples of random nazis cleansing entire populations, or routing out 100,000 jews here or there, or presumed jews, and they were sure in the overall killing of 20 million people, and being involved in a conflict that killed 60 million, to kill more than 6 million jews seems highly likely, especially with that bias existing on both sides of the border.

The thing that nags me is the way the whole subject is presented and the greater issue that it's overall not an accurate portrayal. The whole thing was not well organized, and there was massive killing everywhere, including involving no jews at all.

This was interesting:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adolf_Eichmann

I think that picture is close to where I came to, but I would quibble that the killing of massive numbers of jews and other dissidents, not to mention other "undesireables" a term which resurfaces in the works of the pro-birth control movement later on, see Margaret Sanger and Co. on eugenics and birth contol, stuff that is still going on, btw, and to my friends on the left I would say "check this stuff out, and clean house" because it's all pretty much there in black and white, and many on the left still support these sorts of policies, unaware of where they came from.

John,

I think this argument is absurd. The idea that Eichmann was jewish is neither convincing nor relevant. We need to take a step back and determine what exactly is "jewish" to begin with.

Let's just examine the facts, and not leap to any conclusions based on theories which may in turn not be based on facts:

1. Did Eichmann attend a synagogue? Oh don't be absurd.
2. Is jewish some sort of virus? A genetic mutation that makes you evil? A genetic impurity that is never found in aryans, or elsewhere? If this sort of thing were true, then all of the arab world would be jewish by definition.

The problem with much of Jewish history, which like our own or that of China, Russia and a good many other places, is that it is filled with all sorts of vile things, and that we all have this holy bible which details a great number of slaughters and a few all out genocides as holy and good. The holy bible also wholeheartedly endorses not just slaughter, but racism, and slavery based on race.

If we look at the Nazis, and what they had in common here I think you'll find not that Nazi leaders were infected by strains of jewish blood which made them warlike and mean, unlike their gothic forebearers, but that they ascribed to some philosophies and had some partners which did not make for good diplomacy.

For instance, not only were they christians, and so had the old testament, and the new testament, and could look at genocide as "religiously okay" and "because they killed jesus" or whatever other nonsense, but they also had socialism.

Socialism existed in europe before Marx but, sure, it was heavily influenced by Marx, who was jewish, and so some elements of judaism crept into the ideology, the way elements of christianity crept into Gardiner's works on Wicca, as he was raised a devout christian. But this doesn't make for a grand conspiracy.

Nor does it make for the entire flawed ideology of socialism. The US, imho, at times gets very close to socialism, in that it become the govt. of the unquestioning cooperator. This is the ideal in socialism.

You will hear liberals spout this line today "Cooperation rather than competition" without stopping to ask "cooperation with what?" The problem is that any such a system, when you put a madman at the helm, is going to lead to mass insanity. A system should always question its orders.

Let's take another step back and look at the whole conflict. The Germans most certainly killed more aryans than jews, and did little to stem the influences of the powerful jewish banking groups which Hitler blamed for Germany's defeat in WWI.

Holocausts discussions tend towards the argument that "this is what Germany did wrong." I would argue that the list of what Germany did wrong was pretty close to endless, and that they had been preceeded in that vein by russian socialists, and followed by chinese socialists, who were able to kill a far greater number.

If anything is driving Israel to bad decisions today, it's not their jewish blood, it's their ideology of both historical and racial supremacy, (if anyone doubts this, go visit some zionist pages and see exactly how far some of these guys will go to prove their genetic superiority, nt only to arabs, but to other mideastern peoples, such as syrians) and endless amount of loans for new war. The greedy banker behind any war need not be jewish by any means, in fact, this was a serious problem in africa before ancient israel came into being.

Finally, once one is in power, and evil, like the nazis, or like Ohlmert, who is dodging if I recall life in prison for embezzlement and rape, then it behooves one to stay in power (again, look at Mugabe or Lukashenko) It doesn't matter what race or religion you are, you cannot afford to lose power once you've crossed the "if we lose power, they kill us" threshold. This is probably the greatest perpetuator of evil of all.

In the end, killing jews and others prevented them seeking retribution, naming names, convicting perpetrators, and even withdrawing from bank accounts and reclaiming stolen property, something which not only the nazis in power were concerned with, but so were their backers.

So, as a genocidal extermination, it was relatively inefficient. Madeline Albright and Bill Clinton did a much more thorough job on the Tutsis, as the govt. of the US and some of the Spanish conquistadors did on the native americans.

I'm just bouncing ideas around, I'm not sure about any of this, I could be wrong, and often am, but the killer who keeps killing to protect himself from persecution, and the switch from deportation to slave labor camps makes a lot of sense to me, as sort of natural human degenerations, rather than master plans, grand conspiracies, and all.

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