Why I Hate Capitalism by SignyM

Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:
Who determines need ? Or who determines what one deserves ?

You? The Government ? The Church? Santa Clause ?

You asked me to define greed, I just did, don't make it something it ain't

More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
No one can see their reflection in running water. It is only in still water that we can see.

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Saturday, February 14, 2009 12:20 PM

Keep the Shiny side up

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
Call me when anyone interesting shows up.

C'mon SignyM. You hate capitalism. You state so right in the title to this thread. You could have said you don't like capitalism, don't trust capitalsim, don't agree with capitalism. But no, you state affirmatively and proudly what you HATE it, and by extension all who practice it. You have repeated this hatred time and time again. I have to take you at your word.

You hate Bill Gates, you hate Sam Walton, you hate the Peanut Corp. guy, you hate Ben & Jerry, you hate the Columbian immigrant who raised enough money to buy and operate my local Subway franchise, you hate anyone and everyone who invested their own time and money in a business in hopes of making a return. If you hate capitalism, and you obviously do, you must hate them all.

Considering how vehemently you attack folk on this board with whom you just disagree, how much more wrath would you display towards people you actually HATE?

"Keep the Shiny side up"

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Saturday, February 14, 2009 12:21 PM

America loves a winner!

Quote:
Originally posted by citizen:
Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:
Who determines need ? Or who determines what one deserves ?

You? The Government ? The Church? Santa Clause ?

You asked me to define greed, I just did, don't make it something it ain't

Hey, it only follows if there's gonna be a determiner, then we have to decide who says " too much " and who says " not enough ". Otherwise, the definition is pointless to even have in the first place.

It is not those who use the term "Islamo-Fascism" who are sullying the name of Islam; it is the Islamo-Fascists. - Dennis Prager

" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "

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Saturday, February 14, 2009 12:26 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:
Hey, it only follows if there's gonna be a determiner, then we have to decide who says " too much " and who says " not enough ". Otherwise, the definition is pointless to even have in the first place.

Except that's not what you did. You went from me giving a definition, to demanding me to give you an economic and social system. So you define what's too much. Or is there no such concept? Is enough whatever you manage to take? In which case, why do you have a problem with the stimulus? If they manage to take it, that's enough.

More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
No one can see their reflection in running water. It is only in still water that we can see.

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Saturday, February 14, 2009 12:36 PM

Keep the Shiny side up

Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko:
And, given the vitriol you and your kind repeatedly spew at the very mention of socialism, I still suspect you'd be perfectly willing to apply a little "harsh punishment" (like torture, of which we allegedly don't) without benefit of judicial sanction.

Find any vitriol I have spoken against socialism. I disagree with it's philosophy, I don't think it's the panacea others do, and I suspect there is as much greed in a socialist economy as any where else, but try to find anywhere I've stated I hate socialism or socialists (or communism or communists, for that matter).

SignyM, on the other hand, proudly proclaims hatred for capitalism, and you can't hate capitalism without hating capitalists. So take a little time and figure how many of the folk you deal with each day SignyM hates. Pretty much any restaurant, coffee shop or bar you go into is either owned an run by a capitalist, or franchised by a capitalist. Any non-chain store you frequent has probably got a capitalist owner-operator. Franchised gas stations are generally owned and run by capitalists. You're awash in capitalists any where you go, and SignyM hates them all.

I'm wondering why you feel you have to defend such hate.

"Keep the Shiny side up"

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Saturday, February 14, 2009 1:02 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Geezer:
So take a little time and figure how many of the folk you deal with each day SignyM hates. Pretty much any restaurant, coffee shop or bar you go into is either owned an run by a capitalist, or franchised by a capitalist. Any non-chain store you frequent has probably got a capitalist owner-operator. Franchised gas stations are generally owned and run by capitalists. You're awash in capitalists any where you go, and SignyM hates them all.

*Eyes pop out in disbelief*

So, by that thinking, if one states that one hates guns, one must hate the manufactures, the retailers, the owners, and the society which makes their very existence possible.

That straw dog don't hunt, Geez.

The laughing Chrisisall

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Saturday, February 14, 2009 9:09 PM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Quote:
SignyM, on the other hand, proudly proclaims hatred for capitalism, and you can't hate capitalism without hating capitalists....I'm wondering why you feel you have to defend such hate.

STILL arguing with the voices in your head Geezer??

heh heh heh

That's like saying: "You can't hate poverty without hating poor people" or "You can't hate illness without hating sick people". How many times have you heard me say You don't get rid of terrorism by killing terrorists and You don't get rid of poverty by killing poor people? Well, same goes for capitalism: You don't get rid of capitalism by killing capitalists. (Well, maybe just a couple. And then posting their heads at the city gates

)

What didn't I just write before? You can be the nicest business owner in the world but you'll be forced to compete with peeps who have no conscience whatsoever, and THOSE peeps will eventually take over market share. (eg Walmart versus Ben&Jerry's). It's a SYSTEMS problem.

I doubt that this is going to penetrate the cacophony between your ears either, so this will be that last time I argue with the voices in your head too. If you want to keeping setting up strawmen, fine, but I'm just going to treat you like a troll. If you clean the wax out of your ears and respond to my REAL points, then I may bother to reply. Or maybe not.

---------------------------------
It's the end of the world as we know it, and I feel fine.

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Saturday, February 14, 2009 9:23 PM

America loves a winner!

Quote:
Originally posted by citizen:
Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:
Hey, it only follows if there's gonna be a determiner, then we have to decide who says " too much " and who says " not enough ". Otherwise, the definition is pointless to even have in the first place.

Except that's not what you did. You went from me giving a definition, to demanding me to give you an economic and social system. So you define what's too much. Or is there no such concept? Is enough whatever you manage to take? In which case, why do you have a problem with the stimulus? If they manage to take it, that's enough.

No, I merely asked you to define an word you were using, and then I asked a logical follow up question. It was suppose to make you think.

Sorry if you got injured in any way.

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Sunday, February 15, 2009 3:01 AM

*sigh*

And I wasn't debating you, so there really is no need for you to try and make me "think". You can think for yourself and answer your own question if you like, but you were having the particular argument with someone else, and I'm really not interested.

More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
No one can see their reflection in running water. It is only in still water that we can see.

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Sunday, February 15, 2009 4:58 AM

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)

Quote:
AuLapdog wrote:

No, I merely asked you to define an[sic] word you were using, and then I asked a logical follow up question. It was suppose[sic] to make you think.

Sorry if you got injured in any way.

Sorry, I just can't help but giggle any time AuLapdog tries to call someone else's intelligence into question.

'Rappy, you really, seriously are in no position to EVER question anybody's mental abilities. You can't seem to type one single response without mutilating the English language.

Blame it on your "fast typing", your "lazy fingers" or whatever you want, but it's really your slow thinking and dim wits that are on display, because you make the same kinds of mistakes over and over and over and over... (Quick - what's the plural form of "terrorist"?)

So while you're "suppose to" make others think, you should try it yourself once in a while. Think about what you're typing, think about using a spell-checker, think about learning from your many, many mistakes.

Mike

"It is complete now; the hands of time are neatly tied."

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Sunday, February 15, 2009 6:04 AM

America loves a winner!

A childish retort from a childish individual. Ignore the issue, and nit pick beyond all reason. This isn't a term paper, nor a thesis I'm posting for peer review. It's just a quick posting on a message board.

Try to dismiss my view points for micro grammatical errors all you want, but you end up looking the fool, " Mike".

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Sunday, February 15, 2009 6:22 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:
A childish retort from a childish individual. Ignore the issue, and nit pick beyond all reason. This isn't a term paper, nor a thesis I'm posting for peer review. It's just a quick posting on a message board.

Try to dismiss my view points for micro grammatical errors all you want, but you end up looking the fool, " Mike".

It is not those who use the term "Islamo-Fascism" who are sullying the name of Islam; it is the Islamo-Fascists. - Dennis Prager

" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "

Sorry, Lapdog, but it was YOU who tried to imply that someone else might be injured by your trying to make them think. So if YOU want to malign someone else's intelligence or ability to follow along, you might want to make damned sure that your own ability to effectively communicate is unimpeachable.

Is this a picture of you?

Mike

"It is complete now; the hands of time are neatly tied."

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Sunday, February 15, 2009 6:39 AM

America loves a winner!

Yes, and I still say that if you use the word 'greed' and then can't explain what you mean by it, you should think about what you're saying. Do I have to be perfect in everything I say and do before I can offer my 2 cents ? Were the the case, then this entire page forum would be left blank.

And maybe that guy in the pic ( not me, btw ) WAS indeed directing his comments to the Morans. Are you SURE he meant 'moron' ? Or are you only ASSUMING he spelled the word wrong ?

Think about it.

And " Go, USA! "

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Sunday, February 15, 2009 6:47 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:

And maybe that guy in the pic ( no me, btw ) WAS indeed directing his comments to the Morans. Are you SURE he meant 'moron' ? Or are you only ASSUMING he spelled the word wrong ?

It is no you?

What a maroon.

The laughing Chrisisall

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Sunday, February 15, 2009 3:38 PM

Keep the Shiny side up

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
That's like saying: "You can't hate poverty without hating poor people" or "You can't hate illness without hating sick people".

Oh, bull.

Poor people don't choose to be poor. Sick people don't choose to be sick. They're in a situation they'd rather not be in. I'd suggest that they would rather not have to deal with poverty and illness.

Capitalists, on the other hand, make the decision to accept and embrace the capitaist ethic; that you can invest your time and money in an enterprise and make a profit. Capitalism wouldn't exist if there weren't for those folks. If you hate the system, you gotta hate the people that actively strive to keep it alive.

Quote:
You can be the nicest business owner in the world but you'll be forced to compete with peeps who have no conscience whatsoever, and THOSE peeps will eventually take over market share. (eg Walmart versus Ben&Jerry's).

When did Wal-Mart take over Ben & Jerry's?

I deal with capitalists all the time who have secure places in their market not because they're greedy and have no consicence at all, but because they provide superior product and customer service, and know the customers in their market value that over a lower price for less quality and service. I've had some direct me to other businesses when their product wouldn't meet my needs.

But you don't care, because you hate them. They're capitalists.

"Keep the Shiny side up"

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Sunday, February 15, 2009 3:52 PM

Keep the Shiny side up

Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
So, by that thinking, if one states that one hates guns, one must hate the manufactures, the retailers, the owners, and the society which makes their very existence possible.

That straw dog don't hunt, Geez.

Sure it does. A few years ago I had been fishing in a local National Park and was heading back up the trail to my car. A woman coming the other way asked me the distance to a waterfall on the nearby stream, and I told her. She then noticed the NRA hat I was wearing, got all huffy and outraged, and asked if I was going to pull out my gun and shoot her. What? She then proceeded to tell me she hated guns and anyone who owned them and asked if I'd shoot her now that I knew her position? After quickly explaining it was illegal to carry a gun in a National Park, I got away from this nutcase as fast as I could. Here in Northern Virginia, I find that I have to be careful about mentioning target shooting as my hobby at parties, meetings, etc., because any anti-gun folks who overhear tend to crank up their tirades.

Just like SignyM and her hatred for capitalists, these folks think they know all about me from the fact that I enjoy shooting holes in paper, and aren't shy about expressing their hatred.

"Keep the Shiny side up"

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Sunday, February 15, 2009 4:01 PM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Quote:
Oh, bull. Poor people don't choose to be poor. Sick people don't choose to be sick.

Last time I reply.

I noticed you slid over the terrorism example. Because terrorists DO choose to be terrorists, and I STILL don't think you can get rid of terrorism by killing terrorists. Or, picking another example which you should recall, I don't think you can eliminate crime by killing criminals (I'm against the death penalty, you might recall. That kinda lets even capitalists off the hook).

So I don't know why you're so DESPERATE to insist that I'm saying something that I'm not - or feeling something I don't. Aside from being pathetic, what does that say about YOU? That you're so emotionally enmeshed with capitalism that you can't even talk about it without going into some kind of PTSD fugue? Well, I dunno what you're problem is but it's clear that you're not capable of rationally discussing capitalism, so you're useless to talk to on the topic.

Quote:
When did Wal-Mart take over Ben & Jerry's? I deal with capitalists all the time who have secure places in their market not because they're greedy and have no consicence at all, but because they provide superior product and customer service, and know the customers in their market value that over a lower price for less quality and service. I've had some direct me to other businesses when their product wouldn't meet my needs.

You have completely missed the point. How can anyone so otherwise intelligent by so utterly unable of thinking in a straight line? Anyway, give it some thought. Maybe you'll figure it out.

---------------------------------
It's the end of the world as we know it, and I feel fine.

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Monday, February 16, 2009 4:11 AM

Keep the Shiny side up

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:

I noticed you slid over the terrorism example. Because terrorists DO choose to be terrorists, and I STILL don't think you can get rid of terrorism by killing terrorists.

You're the one who brought up killing. I'm talking about hating. Do you hate terrorism, BTW? If not, then of course you don't hate terrorists.

Quote:
You have completely missed the point.

You say you hate capitalism. You don't ever state that you limit your hate to certain segments, so you must hate the whole thing. You say it's capitalism's greed and lack of consicence that cause you to hate it. You say that greedy and consicenceless folks inevitably take over all markets. Logically then, all successful capitalists must be greedy and consicenceless. Since they are the same - greedy and consicenceless - as the thing you hate, how could you not hate them?

Maybe you're not stating your point clearly. Or maybe you don't like being called on your hatred.

"Keep the Shiny side up"

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Monday, February 16, 2009 5:49 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Geezer:
She then noticed the NRA hat I was wearing, got all huffy and outraged, and asked if I was going to pull out my gun and shoot her. What? She then proceeded to tell me she hated guns and anyone who owned them and asked if I'd shoot her now that I knew her position? After quickly explaining it was illegal to carry a gun in a National Park, I got away from this nutcase as fast as I could. Here in Northern Virginia, I find that I have to be careful about mentioning target shooting as my hobby at parties, meetings, etc., because any anti-gun folks who overhear tend to crank up their tirades.

So you are careful at parties, but wear your NRA hat in a public place.
*ATTENTION WHORE ALERT*

Also, because this one woman was an extremist in her feelings does not mean everyone else is.

Geezer, let the cows have the straw back.

"Thanks." -Hero, 2009

The laughing Chrisisall

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Monday, February 16, 2009 6:18 AM

Keep the Shiny side up

Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
So you are careful at parties, but wear your NRA hat in a public place.
*ATTENTION WHORE ALERT*

Where I fish, it's rare to meet one person a day. Besides, that hat is the only one I have with mesh sides and back, cooler on a hot day, which was why I was wearing it.

Why is it you can't get through a post without a personal attack? Can't think of anything meaningful to say?

Quote:
Also, because this one woman was an extremist in her feelings does not mean everyone else is.

No. But it goes to show that there are extremists out there, and I have met more than just her with the same style rant. This woman hated guns and gun owners. Signym hates capitalism and capitalists. Same-same.

"Keep the Shiny side up"

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Monday, February 16, 2009 6:25 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Geezer:
Signym hates capitalism and capitalists. Same-same.

I hear she also hates symbolism and cymbals.

Give it up Geez. You have no links, no hard evidence, and in fact, some actual evidence to the contrary.
I'm throwing this flimsy case out.

Obsess on something you can prove next time.

DISMISSED!

"Thanks." -Hero, 2009

The laughing Chrisisall

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Monday, February 16, 2009 6:50 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by rue:
"Greed is only a symptom of corruption which in turn has it's roots in our unavoidably unchangeable human instinct."

Every time I see a 'human nature' (or instinct) notion, I think the person doesn't have an argument - just an opinion. And that opinion is usually some variant of social Darwinism.

Yes...it was just an opinion. Are opinions outlawed on this site? Am I not highbrow? ...I'm an anthropology major so Darwyn is an influence

Quote:
Originally posted by rue: So: Is it human nature to die for another ?

In the case of parenthood, wartime, or to save loved ones.

Quote:
Originally posted by rue:Is it human nature to take pleasure in cooperating ?

Without varying inequitable levels of cooporation?...yes

Quote:
Originally posted by rue:Is it human nature to invent without the lure of greed ?

sometimes...maybe...no...I dunno...I guess I can't answer for humanity

Quote:
Originally posted by rue:Is it human nature to love ?

If the opportunity presents itself...but...you're not going to love anybody if you live alone in a cave. Human nature is genetic, love is conditional based on availability

Quote:
Originally posted by rue:Is it human nature to value things that aren't economic ?

Yes

Quote:
Originally posted by rue:Is it human nature to sacrifice time, effort and resources to raise children without recompense ?

Yes

Quote:
Originally posted by rue: All of these are historically and scientifically proven things.

Sure...but how does all that prove that human "capitalistic" survival instinct doesn't exist? Humans need and use both as a species. We as a species have capitalized on adaptation, which gave us the opportunity to capitalize as a species on societal norms that make our lives meaningful, and safe enough to value love and sacrifice outside of the parental model.

Quote:
Originally posted by rue:And how does that stack up against your opinion of humanity as individualistic greedy grubbing economic machines blind to everything else ?

I did not express any opinon that stated "I think of humanity as an individualistic greedy grubbing economic machines blind to everyone else". That is not even close enough to be a distortion of what I think. I'll kindly request you not put opinionated words in my mouth, especially when you chastise me for having an "opinion" in your opening paragraph.

Humans can be all sorts of negative things, to themselves, and to others, all in the same day. The only true non capitalist behavior I have ever observed is that of parents towards thier children, most of the time.

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Monday, February 16, 2009 7:55 AM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Quote:
Signym hates capitalism and capitalists. Same-same.

Geezer hates socialists way more more than SignyM hates capitalists because he can't seem to stop lying about them.

---------------------------------
It's the end of the world as we know it, and I feel fine.

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Monday, February 16, 2009 8:13 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
Quote:
Signym hates capitalism and capitalists. Same-same.
Geezer hates socialists way more more than SignyM hates capitalists because he can't seem to stop lying about them.

---------------------------------
It's the end of the world as we know it, and I feel fine.

He also seems to hate everyone who doesn't love guns, and lumps them into a single group which he hates.

Hey, I like target shooting, too, but I find the NRA to be less than useless. They're just another money-grubbing organization with their hand out, waiting for me to grease their palms.

Mike

"It is complete now; the hands of time are neatly tied."

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Monday, February 16, 2009 8:20 AM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Quote:
I noticed you slid over the terrorism example. Because terrorists DO choose to be terrorists, and I STILL don't think you can get rid of terrorism by killing terrorists.-SignyM

You're the one who brought up killing. I'm talking about hating. Do you hate terrorism, BTW? If not, then of course you don't hate terrorists.

Of course I hate terrorism Geezer. Said so many times. Have also stated the obverse: War is a poor tool with which to build peace. You must be the change you wish to see.

You also ignored my example about criminals. So do I have to also explicitly state that I hate crime in order to make my point? Yes, I also hate crime.

Quote:
You have completely missed the point. -SignyM

You say you hate capitalism. You don't ever state that you limit your hate to certain segments, so you must hate the whole thing. You say it's capitalism's greed and lack of consicence that cause you to hate it. You say that greedy and consicenceless folks inevitably take over all markets. Logically then, all successful capitalists must be greedy and consicenceless. Since they are the same - greedy and consicenceless - as the thing you hate, how could you not hate them?

Oy. If I can hate poverty without hating poor people, and if I can hate illness without hating sick people, and I can hate terrorism without hating terrorists, and if I can hate crime without hating criminals, then SURELY I can hate capitalism without hating capitalists.

I really don't see why you feel so personally threatened when I point to a system and say

Hey! It sucks! It creates a situation in which people MUST be greedy in order to succeed. It erodes the better parts of our nature! It creates tremendous wealth for a few at the expense of the many! It sequesters capital and crashes on a routine basis!

Usually, you're much more sane about your arguments. The only difference between our previous arguments and now is that EVENTS are proving me correct, because I have LONG said that capitalism REQUIRES credit to run (money supply issues) and that it will burst soon and,..... by god, here we are.

---------------------------------
It's the end of the world as we know it, and I feel fine.

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Monday, February 16, 2009 8:43 AM

Quote:
Posted by Geezer:

She then proceeded to tell me she hated guns and anyone who owned them and asked if I'd shoot her now that I knew her position? After quickly explaining it was illegal to carry a gun in a National Park, I got away from this nutcase as fast as I could. Here in Northern Virginia, I find that I have to be careful about mentioning target shooting as my hobby at parties, meetings, etc., because any anti-gun folks who overhear tend to crank up their tirades.

Just like SignyM and her hatred for capitalists, these folks think they know all about me from the fact that I enjoy shooting holes in paper, and aren't shy about expressing their hatred.

This would pretty clearly seem to indicate that you hate everyone who is anti-gun. You refer to one person as a "nutcase" based on a chance encounter of a few moments, and then refer to "these folks", lumping anyone else who dislikes guns into that "nutcase" category.

So, by extension, you hate them all. You don't seem shy about expressing YOUR hatred, either.

Mike

"It is complete now; the hands of time are neatly tied."

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Monday, February 16, 2009 9:16 AM

Keep the Shiny side up

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
Geezer hates socialists way more more than SignyM hates capitalists because he can't seem to stop lying about them.

Where have I said I hate socialists, or socialism? Where have I lied, rather than expressed a differing opinion?

All I have to do is look at the title of this thread to see that you hate capitalism. Find where I've said I hate socialism, or shut up.

"Keep the Shiny side up"

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Monday, February 16, 2009 9:26 AM

"Under communism man oppresses man, while under capitalism it is just the reverse".

More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
No one can see their reflection in running water. It is only in still water that we can see.

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Monday, February 16, 2009 9:37 AM

Keep the Shiny side up

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
I really don't see why you feel so personally threatened when I point to a system and say

Hey! It sucks! It creates a situation in which people MUST be greedy in order to succeed. It erodes the better parts of our nature! It creates tremendous wealth for a few at the expense of the many! It sequesters capital and crashes on a routine basis!

Because I believe you're wrong. I meet and deal with capitalists all the time who have succeeded without being greedy or having the better parts of their natures eroded, both in small and large businesses. If you think about it, you deal with these folks too. Yet you have the arrogance, without knowing anything about them, to condemn the system by which they make an honest living.

You also manage to insult the consumer by supposing that the only thing they care about is price, and that they'll all buy crap from folks they don't like to save a buck. Unless you only think of price when you buy stuff, you should know that's not true, either of yourself or of others.

I'm sure there are greedy capitalists, as the Peanut Corp. guy shows, but I've suggested, and you haven't refuted, that there are just as many greedy folk in other economic systems. Sometimes the greed is for power rather than money, but it's there. Think Kim Jung Il isn't greedy and acquisitive?

BTW, as to

"Hey! It sucks! It creates a situation in which people MUST be greedy in order to succeed. It erodes the better parts of our nature! It creates tremendous wealth for a few at the expense of the many! It sequesters capital and crashes on a routine basis! "

Change that paragraph to the past tense, and it could just as easily apply to the Soviet Union.

"Keep the Shiny side up"

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Monday, February 16, 2009 9:48 AM

Keep the Shiny side up

Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko:
This would pretty clearly seem to indicate that you hate everyone who is anti-gun. You refer to one person as a "nutcase" based on a chance encounter of a few moments...

A woman who challenges me, out of thin air, to shoot her? Yeah, I stick to nutcase in her case.

Quote:
and then refer to "these folks", lumping anyone else who dislikes guns into that "nutcase" category.

No. If folks want to discuss our differences rationally, I'm all for it. Folks who have a canned rant which allows no discussion or exchanges of points of view, I'd just as soon avoid.

Quote:
So, by extension, you hate them all. You don't seem shy about expressing YOUR hatred, either.

Unlike SignyM's avowed hatred of capitalism, I've never said I hate people who share differing views on guns, just that some of them exibit the same qualities she has of going off on anyone who disagrees with her.

"Keep the Shiny side up"

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Monday, February 16, 2009 1:36 PM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Quote:
Unlike SignyM's avowed hatred of capitalism, I've never said I hate people who share differing views on guns,

And I never said I hate people who's views differ from mine (ie capitalists). You keep making that stupid equation. I can't tell if you're just irrational from emotion or a devoted liar. Just admit you were wrong. Man up and move up.

Quote:
I meet and deal with capitalists all the time who have succeeded without being greedy or having the better parts of their natures eroded, both in small and large businesses. If you think about it, you deal with these folks too.

Yep, since I'm in the compliance section of my agency, I routinely deal with businesses which criminally risk public health for a few more bucks. I work with national and regional business associations - National Paint and Coatings Association, Western States Petroleum Association, Western Independent Refiners Association, ILMA, and a host of others- from a regulatory standpoint, all of them whining about the cost of regulation, and I see that they are pincered by businesses in other countries which have no regulations at all. I shouldn't need to remind you that the loss of manufacturing to China, Vietnam etc is driven by the lowest possible costs to remain competitive. I shouldn't need to tell you that Walmart and Microsoft gained market share thought anticompetitive practices. So I have a shitload of exposure to capitalism and the forces which act on capitalists.

I actually have sympathy for the owners (I've spoken with many) who say: I want to keep my business in the USA but I can't afford to. I understand the pressures that they're under. More than you, perhaps.

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It's the end of the world as we know it, and I feel fine.

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Monday, February 16, 2009 2:02 PM

OUT2THEBLACK

"...Debt, in capitalist systems, is a wondrous device. That is, until it can’t be paid back. Under capitalism, credit fuels expansion but it does so at a cost. As capitalism expands, credit becomes debt and the greater the expansion, the greater the debt."

Davos Debt & Denial

In an age of illusion, the guise of truth is often heresy

By Darryl Schoon

"...The fact that in 2008 bankers became victims in the game they created has profound implications for capitalism itself. Capitalism, which began in 1694 with the issuance of debt-based money from The Bank of England, has now over three hundred years later reached its last and final stage."

http://informationclearinghouse.info/article22000.htm

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Monday, February 16, 2009 4:32 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by citizen:
"Under communism man oppresses man, while under capitalism it is just the reverse".

That's perfect!

Mike

"It is complete now; the hands of time are neatly tied."

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Tuesday, February 17, 2009 3:48 AM

Keep the Shiny side up

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
Yep, since I'm in the compliance section of my agency, I routinely deal with businesses which criminally risk public health for a few more bucks.

Do you think that since you tend to deal with the bad end of the capitalist spectrum, it tends to color your opinion a bit? Just because you meet the dregs doesn't mean every capitalist, or even a large percentage, are the same. Even though you may not hate capitalists, you end up tarring them all with the same brush.

"Keep the Shiny side up"

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Tuesday, February 17, 2009 4:11 AM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

I don't think so. I meet the dregs, but I also meet the responsible owners.

But whether responsible, criminal, or some place in-between, business owners are forced to compete at the bottom of the barrel because in the marketplace is unforgiving. MOST customers base their decisions on price first, then quality. Social responsibility???? Almost never enters the equation. I can't tell you the number of times that businesses- chrome platers, styrofoam blowers, machinists, furniture-makers, autobody painters, refiners, litho printers, chemical recyclers, goods movement (we have two big ports here), cement-makers.... I've seen 'em all, Geezer- have said, with some justification - If you pass this rule we will be outcompeted by Nevada/ Illinois/ China/ Mexico/ Guatemala/ Fill-in-the-blank. And some of them HAVE gone to Mexico, or Nevada, or China, or gone out of business altogether.

I work in the nexus of production and regulation, and I live in a metro area full of illegal immigrants and sweatshop labor which is, transportationally-speaking just a stone's throw from REALLY cheap labor. Production isn't a middle-class world, the bottom-line is always in mind.

My major was chemistry but my minor was economics and I think that give me a better-than-average view of the pressures on business owners. These pressures are not under their control but they ignore them at their peril. Its a SYSTEMS problem.

BTW- Sales at Walmart are up when everyone else is tanking.

That's capitalism at work.

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It's the end of the world as we know it, and I feel fine.

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Tuesday, February 17, 2009 12:33 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
Capitalism is the gun provided to the small child.

children without parents take on every attribute of adults right?

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Tuesday, February 17, 2009 12:38 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by MalBadInLatin:
Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
Capitalism is the gun provided to the small child.
children without parents take on every attribute of adults right?

Non-sequiter, your facts are un-co-ordinated.

"Thanks." -Hero, 2009

The Nomad Chrisisall

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Wednesday, February 18, 2009 3:51 PM

BYTEMITE

I'm going to have to finish reading this, so sorry if I'm saying something somebody already has, but I just wanted to comment on polluting companies, since that was brought up.

Used to be, you released pollution and you got caught, you'd be discovered and be put on CERCLIS ( http://www.epa.gov/enviro/html/cerclis/cerclis_query.html). If you were a bad enough polluter, you'd be designated a Superfund site, put on the National Priorities List, and the Federal government would come in, oversee the clean-up you're made to do and fine you the cost. It's a measure to protect the public, definitely, and places like Love Canal, which necessitated CERCLA, well, intervention was damn needed, and paying damages to the people who were made ill was only right.

But no, companies don't like being discovered. In general.

Nowadays, though, the EPA has recognized that it can't oversee every thing, and some polluters are small business that just go bankrupt on the fines, and everyone pays out of their pocket. So it's turned to the state governments. A lot of state governments have started on a program called Voluntary Clean-Up and Brownfields.

This program works in concert with local businesses to find sustainable plans for clean-ups. The incentive is, that once they get cleaned-up, their land is worth more, so it's an investment, and once the land gets cleaned up, public isn't in danger anymore, and the company doesn't have to worry about being liable for damages when they're clean.

A lot of people are getting in on this, for purely capitalistic reasons, but the end result is sites get discovered/reported, cleaned-up, and the public is safer.

Of course, I can't really say many companies discover themselves, they'd rather continue to operate under the radar. If they do discover themselves, it's usually because they've been found to be liable for something in the past and don't want to be fined again. But there are some companies that report themselves and submit their sites into voluntary clean up for the sake of development and the community. That's always a warm fuzzy feeling.

EDIT: Now that I've read the thread all the way through, my comment is that it's not everyone, that the real problems are the cheats and the corporate globalists. But I'll also say that our system, as is, enables the greed and corruption of those people, which results in suffering for smaller wage earners. Improvements could be made, though I couldn't tell you what those improvements might be.

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Thursday, February 19, 2009 12:14 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall: Non-sequiter, your facts are un-co-ordinated.

My whubuhwho?....Okay let me try again. Ummm...A gun represents capitalism, and the small child represents adult human participants in an economic system. In this case capitalism is dangerous to humans.

I dunno, can we trust humans to play fair? Not the ones I've met. Can we trust ourselves not to be corrupted by greed?

I was what one could call rich in 1995. And I did completely not give a shit about the less fortunate. The more well off I became, the more I seemed to feel superior.

In 1999 I suffered multiple family deaths, divorce, miscarriages, blood, nightmares, then a huge alchohol and drug abuse binge.

I share this because now I see people around me. But...we can't expect people building wealth to exhibit the type of compassion for social cohesion on all levels. Humans extablish heirarchies within any sociopolitical structure.

I dunno which economic structure produces less negative polarization. Socialism in Denmark is the model. Sweden too.

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Thursday, February 19, 2009 1:34 PM

BYTEMITE

Let me say I'm sorry you've lost so much. :(

I think that more than anything else, community is what gives people the best and most permanent sense of purpose and fulfillment.

When people become SO disconnected from their fellow humanity, from their community, they stop caring if they're hurting anyone. And these are otherwise perfectly functioning people with a full range of emotions. They often end up isolated due to the things they've done for money, possession, and power.

I think people have felt a lot more connection to their community in past history, and they've grown up with that connection. In the absence of that, you get materialism and a population that is more depressed. They get so depressed, they stop trying, and just start watching TV all the time. They stop thinking, stop creating, indulge in whatever fills the void. And it's a downward cycle, because that disconnects them more.

I can't say for sure whether people are just more aware of it, but part of me wonders if the upsurge in some deviances, like pedophilia, is the result of people no longer knowing how to reach out to people, and how to do so appropriately. All of the new pedophiles, they seem to me like they're very lonely people. Obviously there's something kind of Ick about them too, but I think those people need help.

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Thursday, February 19, 2009 1:45 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Bytemite:
part of me wonders if the upsurge in some deviances, like pedophilia

Upsurge? You mean increased exposure, I think. Peeps are no more twisted as a species now, if anything we are WAAAY more civilized than ever before in history.

"Thanks." -Hero, 2009

The laughing Chrisisall

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Thursday, February 19, 2009 1:51 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by MalBadInLatin:
Socialism in Denmark is the model. Sweden too.

Oh no- the dirty word for the far righties here, you may have to wash your tower out with soap!

I knew two peeps that were rich during balloon times, they are now a nurse & a street poet, & both are much happier now.
Being monied can take a toll, I'm told. It's hard work being an a****le.

"Thanks." -Hero, 2009

The laughing Chrisisall

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Thursday, February 19, 2009 2:31 PM

BYTEMITE

I did say it could just be people are more aware of it. I understand statistical fallacies. *Shrug* It's just an alternative explanation to consider.

What I suspect is often not what's reality, so I'm not overly concerned if I'm wrong. Well, except about the people out there hurting the youngin's.

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Thursday, February 19, 2009 3:42 PM

FREMDFIRMA

Byte, I've gone over both topics in pretty deep detail here - but the two primary offenders guilty of instilling a lack of respect for fellow humans are (my opinion, this) television and the public education system, either of which by itself is enough to be bothersome, but the combination of the two is almost a how to DIY sociopathy course.

-F

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Thursday, February 19, 2009 3:48 PM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

And I think it's a capitalist system, whose values we DO intentionally instill in people. To look on people not as people but as a means to a profit - cogs in the money machine as it were. Even more, to treat people that way, in every aspect of their lives. Need water, food, shelter, care, or simply a place in this society ? It can only be had for a price, and someone's profit.

***************************************************************

Silence is consent.

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Thursday, February 19, 2009 4:13 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Bytemite:
Let me say I'm sorry you've lost so much. :(

I think that more than anything else, community is what gives people the best and most permanent sense of purpose and fulfillment.

When people become SO disconnected from their fellow humanity, from their community, they stop caring if they're hurting anyone. And these are otherwise perfectly functioning people with a full range of emotions. They often end up isolated due to the things they've done for money, possession, and power.

I think people have felt a lot more connection to their community in past history, and they've grown up with that connection. In the absence of that, you get materialism and a population that is more depressed. They get so depressed, they stop trying, and just start watching TV all the time. They stop thinking, stop creating, indulge in whatever fills the void. And it's a downward cycle, because that disconnects them more.

This is all very Joseph Campbell's "Wasteland"....and I agree.

In the pioneer days, people needed other people they could trust to survive. Religion was good for depression, and people resigned themselves to the fact that if they worked hard, and saved money, then thier kids picked up on working hard, and saving, thier grandchildren would prosper when the rest of America showed up along with railroads, lawyers, rules, telegraphs, and consumers. Well, that bubble burst at the onset of Industrialization. And it didn't get good again till after WWII, when it became too easy. Now it's getting hard again because the post WWII bubble "easy button" doesn't work anymore.

Now we have people who don't know thier neighbors so it's a snap to screw them and call it freedom. In order for people to play nice enough for Socialism to work, we would have to be more like the Dane's or the Swede's. Thier goal is education and health first, then profit. We are profit first, then education and health. Or at least most of the Conservatives I know are like that.

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Friday, February 20, 2009 12:11 AM

If you want to know what the US Government's priorities are, just look at it's budget break down. Pay special attention to which entity recieves over fifty percent of the overall budget, dispersed as it is through various different departments and emergency expenditure.

More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
No one can see their reflection in running water. It is only in still water that we can see.

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Friday, February 20, 2009 2:49 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by citizen:
If you want to know what the US Government's priorities are, just look at it's budget break down. Pay special attention to which entity recieves over fifty percent of the overall budget, dispersed as it is through various different departments and emergency expenditure.

More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
No one can see their reflection in running water. It is only in still water that we can see.

And take special note that since 2003, that budget has NOT included all funds needed for continued operations in Iraq, which are funded in a series of "emergency supplements" - because apparently we keep on forgetting that we invaded them and have an active war of occupation going on over there...

Mike

"It is complete now; the hands of time are neatly tied."

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Friday, February 20, 2009 3:09 AM