What do I as an individual owe to society and/or mankind? by chrisisall

REAL WORLD EVENT DISCUSSIONS

What do I as an individual owe to society and/or mankind?

POSTED BY: CHRISISALL
UPDATED: Sunday, February 22, 2009 05:06
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VIEWED: 1664
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Friday, February 20, 2009 11:38 AM

Nothing?
A firm handshake?
Some community service?
Taxes?

We are what we come from...are we not?

Do we owe something to future generations?
A cleaner planet?
Less war?
Smaller government?

Are YOU more like Snake Plisskin or Mother Theresa on this?

"Thanks." -Hero, 2009

The laughing Chrisisall

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Friday, February 20, 2009 11:44 AM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

Since I just saw 'Meet the Spartans', which of course brings back to mind '300', and also what is known of the real, historical Sparta -

The males especially didn't get much from their society - sent into the wilderness to live by their wits at age 7 - but were expected to owe it their lives should they survive.

Every society has its own expectations I guess.

***************************************************************

Silence is consent.

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Friday, February 20, 2009 11:46 AM

WHOZIT

You should be the best Son, Husband, Dad. I can take care of myself.

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Friday, February 20, 2009 12:21 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)

What do *I* owe society? The same thing I owe the Earth, and the same thing I owe the places where I hike and camp - to leave it a better place than I found it. To not be a drain on its resources.

What does society owe me? About the same.

Mike

"It is complete now; the hands of time are neatly tied."

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Friday, February 20, 2009 12:24 PM

CHRISISALL

"I’d like to share a revelation that I’ve had, during my time here. It came to me when I tried to classify your species and I realized that you aren’t actually mammals. Every mammal on this planet instinctively develops a natural equilibrium with its surrounding environment, but you humans do not. You move to an area and you multiply, and multiply until every natural resource is consumed. The only way you can survive is to spread to another area. There is another organism on this planet that follows the same pattern. Do you know what it is? A virus. Human beings are a disease, a cancer of this planet. You are a plague, and we... are the cure."

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Friday, February 20, 2009 12:33 PM

CHRISISALL

Quote:
Originally posted by whozit:
I can take care of myself.

Does society owe YOU anything?
Freedom from organized oppression? Anything?

"Thanks." -Hero, 2009

The laughing Chrisisall

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Friday, February 20, 2009 12:41 PM

WHOZIT

Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
Quote:
Originally posted by whozit:
I can take care of myself.
Does society owe YOU anything?
Freedom from organized oppression? Anything?

"Thanks." -Hero, 2009

The laughing Chrisisall

NO! You (society) owe me nothing.

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Friday, February 20, 2009 1:34 PM

FREMDFIRMA

The short answer ?

Not. A. Goddamn. Thing.

But since you prolly would like an explaination...

What do I "owe" a society that handed me a crushing debt load before I even popped out ?
That burdened me to labor under stupid laws often erected for racist, sexist or exploitive purpose ?
That enforces laws and moral codes from a religion I believe is evil, despite this being explicitly forbidden in it's own rules ?
That I never had a say in whatsoever for the first eighteen years of my life, and often do not anyway due to gerrymandering rendering my vote worthless ?
That did not even recognize me as a human being until that point ?
That is designed to limit us, stunt our social, mental and emotional evolution so that it can forever cast itself into an exploitive parental role ?
That crushes out every decent and noble instinct we have as a threat to it's own sociopathic values ?

Here's what I "owe" that society...

One big fist, right upside it's hell spawned head.

And I've never been shy about delivering it.

As for what I owe mankind ?
Really, nothing.
But I *choose* to act, without a moral imperative, without needing some kind of excuse, I MAKE THE CHOICE to try to better the world for future generations, or at least reduce the misery that will be landed on them, as it was on me.

If you ever really, REALLY wanna know the measure of a person, remove all consequence or benefit from their actions and then watch what they do.

That'll tell ya.

-Frem
It cannot be said enough, those who do not learn from history, are doomed to endlessly repeat it

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Friday, February 20, 2009 1:41 PM

CHRISISALL

Quote:
Originally posted by Fremdfirma:

If you ever really, REALLY wanna know the measure of a person, remove all consequence or benefit from their actions and then watch what they do.

I conjure, aside from a little petty shoplifting from big corporate stores & speeding on the highways, I'd be largely the same as I am now.

I conjure...

"Thanks." -Hero, 2009

The laughing Chrisisall

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Friday, February 20, 2009 2:01 PM

FREMDFIRMA

Chris, that was always what struck me wrong about movies like, say... Bruce Almighty.

The automatic assumption that anyone, given power, would *instantly and immediately* go wild with it, turning into a monster.

That's so anvilicious it blows any suspension of disbelief right out of the water for me, barring something like The One Ring, which even itself took DECADES to corrupt someone even a tiny bit, especially if their very nature ran contrary to it, and in the end was subverted by the will of mere hobbits, twice (when Bilbo willingly renounces it, and when Frodo intentionally carries it into Mt Doom) despite being the most corruptive, evil artifact EVER.

A very good case for the opposite is the Anime/Manga Kamichu - a persons basic nature does not change overnight, especially if they're not all that unhappy with who they are.

The infamous Groundhog Day is also a bit of a twist on this, since even the meanest things Murrays character did were astoundingly petty, when it came right down to it, and in the end, behaving like an ass just plain fails to make him happy.

Hell, given that often enough I have to break the freakin law*, and the moral codes of other religions in order to help people - and thus have to do it oh so very discretely, given that I've taken it that far despite the risk of high penalties...

The idea that I would no longer offer aid or assistance if those things were removed is asinine.

-Frem
*Point: Have you never stayed your hand for fear of legal complications, when you COULD have helped someone, really ?
Be honest with yourself, you HAVE done it, haven't you ?
We all have, and at some point I made the decision that this wasn't gonna stop me anymore.

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Friday, February 20, 2009 2:30 PM

SERGEANTX

Quote:
Originally posted by Fremdfirma:
*Point: Have you never stayed your hand for fear of legal complications, when you COULD have helped someone, really ?
Be honest with yourself, you HAVE done it, haven't you ?
We all have, and at some point I made the decision that this wasn't gonna stop me anymore.

Heh... reminds me of a situation a few years back in Lawrence. A car that was parked on an incline, and apparently didn't have its parking brake engaged, spontaneously rolled out into the middle of a busy intersection. As you can imagine, chaos ensued. I parked my car in the parking lot of a restaurant nearby and, seeing that the owner of the car apparently wasn't around, sought a solution. Another guy had stopped as well (no doubt another self-centered, society-hating libertarian), and between the two of us we managed to push the car out of the intersection. We put rocks under the back tires to prevent it rolling off again, and as we were writing a note to leave letting the owner know what had happened, a police officer showed up.

After running our IDs, he went on to spend twenty minutes lecturing us about how crazy and irresponsible we were. He wrote up a report in case the incident resulted in a law suit.

SergeantX

"Dream a little dream or you can live a little dream. I'd rather live it, cause dreamers always chase but never get it." Aesop Rock

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Friday, February 20, 2009 3:49 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

I owe mankind (my child, and all children) the effort to leave the world better than what I found it.

What I owe society depends very much on the society.

---------------------------------
It's the end of the world as we know it, and I feel fine.

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Friday, February 20, 2009 3:50 PM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

And I was at a restaurant having iced tea the other day when I heard a terrible screeching of tires and saw a cloud of blue rubber smoke. Some guy's transmission had locked-up on the main street.

So being the involved, socially conscious liberal I am, I went out to see if I could help. (With four bulging spinal discs and two busted ones and in a fair bit of daily non-stop pain) I enlisted the help of two burly youthful males and we three tried to slide the car off the road. We couldn’t do it, but meantime another socially conscious involved liberal-type had called a tow-truck operator he knew to get the car to a repair shop.

***************************************************************

Silence is consent.

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Friday, February 20, 2009 6:06 PM

GEEZER

Keep the Shiny side up

"What do I as an individual owe to society and/or mankind?"

Nothing.

The question should be "What do I as an individual choose to invest in society and/or mankind?"

I believe that when folk choose to support, encourage, help, communicate with, and otherwise try to improve society based on their best understanding of what is best for the whole, they end up doing a better job than if they are coerced by guilt or decree.

"Keep the Shiny side up"

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Friday, February 20, 2009 10:24 PM

HKCAVALIER

My responsability to another human being is a function of my awareness of that human being. The greater my awareness, the deeper my social contract with that person. On that, I'm in agreement with Mal: it's not a choice.

"Owe" is an ugly word implying that you are deficient in some way. "Obligation" disrespects your indiviaulity and the individuality of others.

HKCavalier

Hey, hey, hey, don't be mean. We don't have to be mean, because, remember, no matter where you go, there you are.

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Friday, February 20, 2009 10:46 PM

DREAMTROVE

1. Take only pictures, leave only footprints.
2. Leave it a better place than you found it.
3. Most importantly:

You owe the world the cost of carrying you. As a human, you eat food. Possibly you create air polution, worse yet, trash. If you can create food, clean air (plant trees) and clean up after yourself, you've got a good start.

You create a debt by your existence, we all do, and we must pay it back. Be careful what you take from the world, and try to give back more than you take.

Most of humanity is just a drain on the planet. They fail to ask the question you just asked, which puts you ahead of the rest.

Sadly, it is up to the responsible to make up for the irresponsible, just as the taxpayers pay for the spendthrifts, it's not fair, but without it, the world doesn't survive. But balance your own ecocheckbook, and you should be on the right path.

You owe humans the kindness they showed you, but not the hostility. That makes humans better. Humans, collectively, need to learn to live with life on earth, because without it, we all die, as do they, and remember, they were here first.

Except for muskrats, but even so, I give muskrats their due. I figure that the planet can afford a newcomer, and this one has some charm. Yes, I had to look this up at one point, they're probably the newest member of our animal family, they actually post-date us. There are muskrats all over the place here. My favorite part about them is that their homes have two exits: One in a field, like a normal animal, and the other underwater in some nearby stream, and the home inside is a mix of above and below water. I just think that's cool. Like I might want to design a home that way. Being able to hold my breath that long would help...

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Saturday, February 21, 2009 2:35 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

HK, Frem, Sarge, Geezer: I think we as individuals owe others. To deny THAT is to deny that is any such concept as "fairness", and the basis of society. I think I can trace the views of at least two of you to very rough upbringing, and to two of you (not necessarily the same two) to perhaps sheer inbuilt opposition. Basically, it sounds like you're saying that while YOUR end of the social contract is voluntary, society's end is involuntary (simply because you cannot fully w/draw yourself from its benefits).

But you have not demonstrated how society can exist w/o having inbuilt consequences to violating its rules. Even the most cooperative and generous societies use exclusion or shunning.

---------------------------------
It's the end of the world as we know it, and I feel fine.

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Saturday, February 21, 2009 4:33 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!

A better question is, who owns you ? Does the state own you ? Are you nothing more than a mere product of your society ? Or are you a unique individual, singular and different from all else in the cosmos?

It is not those who use the term "Islamo-Fascism" who are sullying the name of Islam; it is the Islamo-Fascists. - Dennis Prager

A concern of the GOP is that the people aren't informed enough to understand their policies, while a fear of the Dems is that the people ARE.

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Saturday, February 21, 2009 8:44 AM

FREMDFIRMA

Ok, lemme clarify.

I owe american society in particular, nothing more than the scorn it rightfully deserves.

Society as a whole, as a concept ?
Little, given that over the course of my life I have derived far more misery than benefit from it and this has colored my viewpoint significantly.

Mankind as a species ?
Sometimes I wonder if we'd not be better off as forgotten as the dinosaurs, one does not wind up a maltheistic misanthrope without reason, although that is directed more socially then anything else, and given that it does happen to be my species, there's a certain selfish desire to see it prosper, and the saving grace of obvious potential, which leads to the next point.

Humanity as a concept ?
Everything.
All that I believe, that I fight for, tooth and claw against this so-called society for, is a potential we've always had, that which brought us together in civilisation, which brings us together in peace and mutual cooperation, that leads us to protect the weak, to bond and band together for the enrichment of all, our very humanity.

I *BELIEVE* in it, on the evidence alone, not as an act of faith, but of the knowledge of self and others, and will, as long as I draw breath, feed and protect that one thing which has elevated us closer and closer to what we have the potential to be - even if it means laying siege to a society designed to stunt it, strip it from us, and cast it out entire, an unsustainable proposition from the very beginning, and one mankinds nature will in the long term eventually defeat for that very reason, even if it means a cycle of build and ruin that lasts for millenia, provided we don't wreck our own biosphere.

Because every bit of happiness, joy or comfort I have ever seen or known, stems from that potential, that tiny little spark of what makes us truly PEOPLE, the thing that makes the difference between merely human, and actually humane, is something to cherish on a level I can only describe as religious, perhaps spiritual, although without any supernatural connotation.

That tiny little spark is everything to me, it's what gives us MEANING, ryhme and reason to exist, and even as the powers that be, in their shortsighted blindness try their damndest to snuff it out, a self-defeating act if there ever was one, since to do so would deprive them of the prey they need to survive...

I will do my damndest to fan that spark into a blaze, a beacon of hope for us to follow into a future where such foolishness is naught more than the smugly held rememberances of a small childs first failures.

"Every advance in human life, every scrap of knowledge and wisdom and decency we have has been torn by one side from the teeth of the other. Every little increase in human freedom has been fought over ferociously between those who want us to know more and be wiser and stronger, and those who want us to obey and be humble and submit"
- Philip Pullman; The Subtle Knife

Cause THAT, folks, is what I *believe* in, through and through.

-Frem

It cannot be said enough, those who do not learn from history, are doomed to endlessly repeat it

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Saturday, February 21, 2009 9:14 AM

BYTEMITE

Hmm.

Hey Frem:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Humanism

Not a bad philosophy to subscribe to, I consider myself Humanist in a lot of ways.

EDIT: Ooh, hey, Phillip Pullman! Nice quote, I'm a fan of his.

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Saturday, February 21, 2009 9:47 AM

GEEZER

Keep the Shiny side up

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
HK, Frem, Sarge, Geezer: I think we as individuals owe others.

I have no problem with you feeling that way.

What I do have a problem with is when you, or the bunch of yous which make up a government or other coercive body, decide that I, as an individual, owe something, decided on by you, to others.

"Keep the Shiny side up"

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Saturday, February 21, 2009 10:08 AM

DREAMTROVE

You owe the earth. You subsist by taking from it. If you don't give back, you're a parasite.

A cell, immune system, symbiont, parasite, or virus. It's all up to you. You're future, and that of your descendents depends on that decision, nothing else. Cold world, life is harsh.

Diseases must be eliminated, in order to survive. It's just a dictate of evolution, a rule of nature. Nothing personal. It's not a political opinion, it's just a fact of life. The evolving entity here is the Earth. Where do you fit in?

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Saturday, February 21, 2009 10:13 AM

HKCAVALIER

Hey Signy,

I was really trying to distill a basic principle as best I could. Frankly, I found myself wincing at the "I don't owe nobody nothin'" tenor of some of the answers with which you seem to associate me here. At the same time, I do find the word "owe" an ugly concept when applied to morality, akin to such shame-based formulations as "blame" and "duty." I do find these words tend to diminish our individuality and to encourage the misuse of power in a lot of ways, without bringing anything beautiful or necessary to the table.

That said, I still don't think you understand the anarchist mindset in general--the underlying optimism and connectedness inherent to anarchist philosophy(I say understand--you have made it clear at other times that you are aware of an optimism in anarchist thought which you have denigrated as utopian or naïve).

It really comes down to basic premises about human nature.

Though I'm certain a lot of anarchists wouldn't use these words, I would say that empathy is the basis of anarchist morality. When I become aware (this is not a choice) of a solution to another's problem, my self-respect demands that I do something to help. To choose to do nothing in the face of my awareness diminishes me, harms me. I believe this is true of all human beings, though not all human beings are aware of this, obviously.

When we don't base our actions on such personal values (and by "personal" I mean intrinsically available to all individuals), such utterly personal values, as self-esteem, self-respect, love, generosity, beauty; and instead base our actions on fear, scarcity, the desire to hurt and dominate (Alice Miller would boil it down to revenge and contempt), then we violate the social contract and ourselves.

The importance you place on "fairness" troubles me a great deal actually. Forgive me if I make way too much of it, but "fairness" embodies so much of what I think is deeply wrong in this world. It exemplifies what looks to me like a very unhappy compromise you've had to make with life. I find "fairness" to be of primary concern to people who feel entitled to rewards they haven't gotten; thwarted, angry people. Adults who tout "fairness" as a value tend, in my experience, to be people who are fundamentally disappointed by life. They feel that "punishment" and "reward" have not been meted out justly to them or to those around them. And they want justice above all. I would even go so far as to say that "fairness" as a value has its roots in authoritarianism, a fundamentally hierarchical mindset that sees no alternative to a world where some dominate (those with the power to punish or reward) and others are oppressed (those who are punished or rewarded by the caprice of authority).

People who value "fairness" tend to have a lot of enemies--all those "undeserving" people who've gotten what they covet. It's a measure of resentment and betrays an aggression that is denied and therefore toxic. Power is depersonalized in their world view, is displaced onto impersonal authority.

How the heck are you gonna make authority "fair" without abolishing authority and therefore removing the issue of fairness itself? I think this is at the heart of every failed revolution in human history. The revolutionary can see the problem when it is outside, but when the external authority is abolished, the revolutionary finds him or herself in a position of authority and rather than immediately abdicating that authority, resolves to be the "fair" and the "just" authority they've never known. Hijinks ensue.

I think "fairness" as a value, diminishes us, keeps us childish. It is a hold-over from when we were--relatively--powerless children at the--apparent--mercy of adults.

I don't know how one can value fairness so, without attempting to become the chimaerical "fair authority." There are only two relationships we can have with "fair authority"--static, unquestioning dependence, or resentment at being treated as pets or children.

Do you know what I'm saying?

I mean, sure, in the political arena as it stands, Mr. Fair Authority is the best we can do. I'm just pointing out the fundamental flaws in such a system, particularly for us as individuals and adults. I find in the Constitution of the United States the closest thing the western world has ever come up with to an anti-authoritarian concept of government. We got a long way to go, but adhering to the Constitution would be a great start.

I don't know if any of this makes sense to you, Signy, or if I've just really offended you or simply added to our misunderstanding or what. Our conversations on the topic of anarchy have been very fascinating and very frustrating! So, I think I'll leave it at that for now and see if anything I've said strikes a chord with you.

Thanks.

P.S.: Hey Frem, it's pretty funny, I have a book group that meets at my house every couple of weeks--we've been meeting that way for over 2 years now--and this month we've been reading (I've been rereading) His Dark Materials, so I just read your quote a few days ago!

Isn't that just the most amazing cowinky-dink?

I think Joss would have been an ideal screenwriter for the movie, don't you?

And hey, Signy, have you read The Golden Compass? It--along with the other two books in the series, The Subtle Knife and The Amber Spyglass--actually comes closer to describing practically everything that I'm talking about--or everything I've ever talked about on this site, for that matter!--than any book or series of books I've read. And it's a really great read to boot!

HKCavalier

Hey, hey, hey, don't be mean. We don't have to be mean, because, remember, no matter where you go, there you are.

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Saturday, February 21, 2009 11:21 AM

FREMDFIRMA

Re: Humanism.

On a public me-to-you and vice versa level, that's prettymuch where I stand, as a Unitarian Universalist from a Humanist perspective, cause faith in and of itself isn't bad, it's how folk choose to practice it which can be.

My personal beliefs, well, they're personal, right ?

Quote:
resentment at being treated as pets or children.

Amen.

Quote:
I think Joss would have been an ideal screenwriter for the movie, don't you?

Much as I fancy Firefly, I disagree, being far less fond of Buffy/Angel.
I would have suggested Guillermo del Toro.

Re: Golden Compass
Excellent books, yes - but given our nature, lemme make a very heavy suggestion in a simlar theme.
The Michael Ende Novel: MOMO.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Momo_(novel) <-add manually

Oh, and Siggy ?
I think you'd love it too, cause it contains what I consider to be the most BRUTAL smackdown ever on the form of rabid capitalism neither of us cares very much for.

I always appreciate your input, HKCav, as you can do a heck of a lot better job of arguing my own point sensibly than I can, lol.

-F

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Saturday, February 21, 2009 11:38 AM

FREMDFIRMA

Quote:
Though I'm certain a lot of anarchists wouldn't use these words, I would say that empathy is the basis of anarchist morality. When I become aware (this is not a choice) of a solution to another's problem, my self-respect demands that I do something to help. To choose to do nothing in the face of my awareness diminishes me, harms me.

Actually those are the EXACT words I would use, see the above addendum about making the decision that fear of the law would not stop me from helping.

And yes, it's the very basis, the living spark I treasure, and again yes, it's an act of benefit to self as well as others - THAT, is the key to understanding why Anarchists are inclined to believe people will act on it, because it's NOT purely altruistic, and benefits the helper in some small way by silencing that inner voice even if no material benefit is gained.

I HATED that voice, as a late child/early teen, saw it as the one thing holding me back, dragging me down, while others prospered, and frankly, socially, it WAS...

I hated it until I realized the nature of what it was preventing me from becoming in order to prosper, about the same time I began to realize just how much harm violence does to those who use it, even in self defense.

It's silencing that voice, human empathy, or trying to, that above all others is the greatest crime of american society, and the root of uncountable social ills, not the least of which, is the aberrant behavior of children caught between that voice, and a society demanding the exact opposite in exchange for acceptance and success within that society.

See, I hated it too, till I learned to listen oh so carefully to what it was really SAYING....

-Frem

It cannot be said enough, those who do not learn from history, are doomed to endlessly repeat it

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Saturday, February 21, 2009 11:43 AM

HKCAVALIER

Quote:
Originally posted by Fremdfirma:
Much as I fancy Firefly, I disagree, being far less fond of Buffy/Angel.
I would have suggested Guillermo del Toro.

Oh, don't misunderstand me--Buffy did nothing for me and Angel was nothing but a kind of Buffyfied prototype for Malcolm Reynolds. I'm thinking it would be an ideal project for Joss 'cause it would stretch him, push him to equal and excede his work on Firefly. I think his work on Firefly shows he understands the issues at the heart of His Dark Materials. Buffy et al. not so much. And if he could get himself attatched to a "reboot" of the movie in a few years--with del Toro directing, of course--maybe Nathan could play Scorsby!

HKCavalier

Hey, hey, hey, don't be mean. We don't have to be mean, because, remember, no matter where you go, there you are.

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Saturday, February 21, 2009 2:38 PM

SERGEANTX

Put me down with Hk and Frem on this one. I especially appreciate HK's reaction to the concept of "owing" society - as in some kind of perpetual obligation. That sounds like the secular version of "original sin" and is used in similar ways.

All I owe society is my side of a daily bargain. Think of the 'golden rule'. I owe people the same courtesy, respect, generosity, etc.. that they extend to me on a daily basis. And I'm more than willing to 'go first' and extend such niceties 'on faith' to those who might not return the favor, not because I owe them, but because that's the kind of world I want to live in.

SergeantX

"Dream a little dream or you can live a little dream. I'd rather live it, cause dreamers always chase but never get it." Aesop Rock

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Saturday, February 21, 2009 4:07 PM

CHRISISALL

These are some of the best posts ever.
Thanks, peeps.

"Thanks." -Hero, 2009

The laughing Chrisisall

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Sunday, February 22, 2009 1:29 AM

FREMDFIRMA

Just a quick blip before I slip into work mode...

Re: Empathy.

Yanno, this where I think the Jedi, in general, screwed it all up, what with that suppression of humanity thing - which always does wind up in disaster.

My opinion of it is that they got what they rightfully deserved as a result.

-F

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Sunday, February 22, 2009 5:06 AM

WULFENSTAR

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg

What do I owe society?

Nothing.

What does society owe me?

Nothing

What would I be willing to give (of my own free will, not FORCED by you goddamned Socialists :::shakes fist:::) to society to make it a better place for everyone?

Everything.

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