Quote:

---

Originally posted by AURaptor:

Quote:

---

Originally posted by ElvisChrist:

Quote:

---

Naww......I didn't think you were man enough to apologize, even after getting humiliated.

---

Are you? I've seen you get humiliated several times, yet I've yet to see you ever issue an apology over it. It's okay, I'll wait.

---

The few times I've made errors, I've owned up to them. But never have I been so far off as citizen here. He asked for evidence, I gave it. He asked for a link , I gave it. On the very core of the issue, and not some trivial side issue of grammar or context, citizen has stepped into it, up to his shoulders. And refuses to acknowledge the error of his ways.
/B]

---

Quote:

---

Originally posted by AURaptor:


And that differs greatly when your 'droids come out and take YOUR side.... how ?

---

Quote:

---

Originally posted by AURaptor:

The few times I've made errors, I've owned up to them. But never have I been so far off as citizen here. He asked for evidence, I gave it. He asked for a link , I gave it. On the very core of the issue, and not some trivial side issue of grammar or context, citizen has stepped into it, up to his shoulders. And refuses to acknowledge the error of his ways.

---

Quote:

---

Originally posted by citizen:


You can tell 'Raps lost when his idiot sock puppet comes out to declare him the winner!

---

Quote:

---

Originally posted by jewelstaitefan:
Such adroit and thoughtful counterpoint - NOT!

---

Quote:

---

Originally posted by dreamtrove:
Rap,

Just one question, are you a moron or a whore?
Clearly, stem cell research requires a lot of R&D money, just like the missile systems you love. You love them because they protect you from Muhammed al Insano with bombs strapped to his nuts.

Now, let's look statistically. Stem Cells are a line of defense against a heart disease, diabetes, cancer and now even aids. These are much more likely to kill you than Muhammed al Insano.

So,

1. Either you're a total whore for big pharma to help make money while letting people like yourself and the rest of us die.
or
2. You're just a f^&king moron.

Sorry, just the level truth. Don't worry, I'm a drive by, I won't be back to argue.

As you were

---

Quote:

---

Originally posted by AURaptor:
Steady, resolute and ever on topic.


Like NEVER.

---

Quote:

---

Originally posted by rue:
Rap,

I see you didn't address the facts I posted.

BAD DOG !

***************************************************************

Silence is consent.

---

Quote:

---

Originally posted by CellarDoor:
Do all political threads around here boil down to people insulting and swearing at each other within a few posts? Are you guys being serious or just recreating barroom brawls...? Just trying to figure out the atmosphere I guess, still being a newcomer.

---

Quote:

---

Originally posted by AURaptor:

Quote:

---

Originally posted by citizen:
I don't want it, it's got Rush Limbaughs semen on it from last time you too had a meeting.

Again, you prove yourself a liar who can't back up word one of his science and freedom hating idiocy.

---

* While we have an open policy concerning messages, please be civil when responding to others.*

---

Quote:

---

Originally posted by AURaptor:
your information is a lie, citizen. Tumors have been found w/ embryonic stem cells.

* http://www.usnews.com/blogs/heart-to-heart/2009/03/04/why-embryonic-st
em-cells-are-obsolete.html

Quote:

---

Why Embryonic Stem Cells Are Obsolete
March 04, 2009 11:52 AM ET | Bernadine Healy, M.D. | Permanent Link | Print

---

---

Quote:

---

She has been serving the administration of George W. Bush as an advisor on bio-terrorism on the President’s Council of Advisors on Science and Technology since 2001.

---

Quote:

---

Cardiologist Bernadine Healy is a physician, educator, and health administrator who was the first woman to head the National Institutes of Health (NIH). Known for her outspoken, innovative policymaking, Dr. Healy has been particularly effective in addressing medical policy and research pertaining to women.
After completing her internship and residency at Johns Hopkins Hospital in Baltimore, Dr. Healy spent two years at the National Heart, Lung, and Blood Institute at the National Institutes of Health before returning to Hopkins in 1976, where she became a professor of medicine. She earned a reputation as a skilled cardiovascular researcher specializing in the pathology of heart attacks. She also became the school's first woman to serve as assistant dean for postdoctoral programs and faculty development.

When Dr. Healy made her debut as director of the National Institutes of Health, she joked, "Things are so bad, some have said, they couldn't even get a man to be NIH director." At that time, the National Institutes of Health was an agency beset with problems. It was thought to be in decline and scientists were leaving in record numbers. The agency had also been accused of sexism and racism in hiring and promotion. The NIH has been without a director for almost two years, and Dr. Healy's appointment was viewed especially positively by many because of her experience in dealing with science policy issues.

While she was at the National Institutes of Health, Dr. Healy undertook a number of initiatives. She established an award program to keep talented scientists working within the grant system during funding lapses, oversaw the development of a major intramural genetics laboratory and an Institute for Nursing Research, and launched the $625 million Women's Health Initiative (a long-term health study involving 150,000 women). In the interest of better understanding the different ways disease and treatment affect men and women, she also established a policy whereby the National Institutes of Health would fund only those clinical trials that included both men and women when the condition being studied affected both genders.

As president of the American Heart Association from 1998 to 1999, she initiated pioneering research into women's heart disease and demonstrated that medical progress depends on the public and medical community's perception that there is a problem to be solved. Healy set out to convince both the lay and medical sectors that heart disease is also a woman's disease, "not a man's disease in disguise."

---

Quote:

---

Originally posted by jewelstaitefan:


AuRap - can you summarize if there has been progress made regarding WHY the difference between success rates between Embryonic and Adult? I hadn't heard if there was a cause found, or if it was being looked for.

---

Quote:

---

Originally posted by AURaptor:
Tumors form from treatments when embryonic stem cells are used. I've not had time to see whether the cause has been isolated or not. Regardless, they've not been able to keep the tumors from growing. No such problem arises when adult stem cells are used.

---

Quote:

---

Originally posted by rue:


This is what happens with adult stem cells: suppose you are using skin stem cells to try and repair the heart. What they will do is FUSE to existing heart muscle cells to create a hybrid skin\ heart muscle cell. But they will never BECOME a heart muscle cell. Should the heart muscle cell that's part of the hybrid cell die, you will lose heart muscle function - ie have a heart attack.

THAT is the failing of adult stem cells - they never DO become the cells you need. And THAT is the promise of embryonic stem cells - that they WILL become the cells you need.

---

Quote:

---

Originally posted by RIPWash:
Okay . . . mandated was a poor choice of wording.

Let's say the Alliance broadcasted across the signal that they were going to allow any money taken in from the planets (core or otherwise) to be possibly used to destroy human embryos so stem cells could harvested.

What would Malcom Reynolds say to that?

Zoe: "Get it running again."
Mal: "Yeah"
Zoe: "So not running now"
Mal: "Not so much"
- Out of Gas

---

Quote:

---

Originally posted by RIPWash:
Now don't put words in my mouth. I didn't say whether the embryos were viable or not. It can be seen that the embryos have to come from somewhere and how they are made "not viable" is a point of contention also. You can say they're "made" in a lab, but still, once a brain stem is formed, there is LIFE there. Human life. Don't tell me that you can't tell what it is at that stage of development. That is not the issue. It is human tissue, actual and whole. Just not fully formed. If that's the case (and I'm not saying that it is, mind you - just a hypothesis). . . creating life, just to destroy/kill it? I think Mal would have a BIG problem with that.

Zoe: "Get it running again."
Mal: "Yeah"
Zoe: "So not running now"
Mal: "Not so much"
- Out of Gas

---

Quote:

---

Originally posted by RIPWash:
Agreed.

Not conceeding, mind you just agreeing.

Zoe: "Get it running again."
Mal: "Yeah"
Zoe: "So not running now"
Mal: "Not so much"
- Out of Gas

---

Quote:

---

once a brain stem is formed

---

Quote:

---

BLASTOCYST

The zygot continues to divide, creating an inner group of cells with an outer shell. This stage is called a blastocyst. The inner group of cells will become the embryo, while the outer group of cells will become the membranes that nourish and protect it. (Placenta, chord, and sac)

---

Quote:

---

Originally posted by RIPWash:
Now don't put words in my mouth. I didn't say whether the embryos were viable or not. It can be seen that the embryos have to come from somewhere and how they are made "not viable" is a point of contention also. You can say they're "made" in a lab, but still, once a brain stem is formed, there is LIFE there. Human life. Don't tell me that you can't tell what it is at that stage of development. That is not the issue. It is human tissue, actual and whole. Just not fully formed. If that's the case (and I'm not saying that it is, mind you - just a hypothesis). . . creating life, just to destroy/kill it? I think Mal would have a BIG problem with that.

---

Quote:

---

Originally posted by SignyM:

Quote:

---

once a brain stem is formed

---

Lizards have brain stems. Does that make them human?

---

Note the difference I'm imposing here by stating HUMAN embryos. Not Lizard embryos.

I'll be completely and brutally honest and say I don't know much about the research, how the cells are harvested or at what stage they're harvested. But IF the more viable source for stem cell research is from adults (and I'm not saying that it is, it's only what I've heard), then that should be pursued more vigilantly than via embryos.

Two sides to every story, folks. We can discuss without getting mean-spirited and I thank Kwicko for being nice to the newebie. Compared to some of what I've seen in this section of the forums . . . wow. It can get fierce. I came to this site because I heard that Browncoats get along regardless of political views. Quite honestly . . . this section blows that theory to kingdom come

I keep thinking of Mal talking to River on the bridge of Serenity . . asking that if she's not human to shoot him now . . . gun clicks . . . "Or . . . we can talk more."

Don't know why I think of that when it comes to this section but oh well.

Zoe: "Get it running again."
Mal: "Yeah"
Zoe: "So not running now"
Mal: "Not so much"
- Out of Gas

Quote:

---

Originally posted by SignyM:

Quote:

---

once a brain stem is formed

---

Lizards have brain stems. Does that make them human?Agree with Kwicko. There are restrictions that can be placed on the source. But for some, even that wouldn't be enough.

But my understanding is that ESC are derived from blastocysts... which is well before any specific differentiation begins. which IS the point of ESC, innit? To get cells BEFORE they've differentiated?

Quote:

---

BLASTOCYST

The zygot continues to divide, creating an inner group of cells with an outer shell. This stage is called a blastocyst. The inner group of cells will become the embryo, while the outer group of cells will become the membranes that nourish and protect it. (Placenta, chord, and sac)

---

---------------------------------
It's the end of the world as we know it, and I feel fine.

---

Quote:

---

Originally posted by Kwicko:
I'd say NONE are coming from those sources, but I can't say that with 100% certainty. What I can say is that MOST aren't coming from these sources.

---

Quote:

---

Two sides to every story, folks. We can discuss without getting mean-spirited and I thank Kwicko for being nice to the newebie. Compared to some of what I've seen in this section of the forums . . . wow. It can get fierce. I came to this site because I heard that Browncoats get along regardless of political views. Quite honestly . . . this section blows that theory to kingdom come

---

Quote:

---

Originally posted by RIPWash:
Okay . . . mandated was a poor choice of wording.

Let's say the Alliance broadcasted across the signal that they were going to allow any money taken in from the planets (core or otherwise) to be possibly used to destroy human embryos so stem cells could harvested.

What would Malcom Reynolds say to that?

---

Quote:

---

Original lies posted by DobsonAlliancefan:
Rip, you're confusing the issue still, going back to this incomplete proposition.

To make the comparable proposal, you would start like this, to include the most offensive source of ESCR, that of Partial Birth Abortions (aka Rotation Extraction Evacuation):
The Alliance was going to confiscate (tax money) funds to be used to pay for humans to be fully gestated, then born, then killed so stem cells could be 'harvested' from them and sold.

Start with that accurate beginning, and then see where Mal & Co will side.

---

Quote:

---

Originally posted by jewelstaitefan:

Quote:

---

Originally posted by RIPWash:
Okay . . . mandated was a poor choice of wording.

Let's say the Alliance broadcasted across the signal that they were going to allow any money taken in from the planets (core or otherwise) to be possibly used to destroy human embryos so stem cells could harvested.

What would Malcom Reynolds say to that?

---

Rip, you're confusing the issue still, going back to this incomplete proposition.

To make the comparable proposal, you would start like this, to include the most offensive source of ESCR, that of Partial Birth Abortions (aka Rotation Extraction Evacuation):
The Alliance was going to confiscate (tax money) funds to be used to pay for humans to be fully gestated, then born, then killed so stem cells could be 'harvested' from them and sold.

Start with that accurate beginning, and then see where Mal & Co will side.

---