A New Hope: Stomping Out Corporatism by AURaptor

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Pinning this on Dodd is absurd. The REAL culprit is Geithner, who pressured Dodd into accepting the provision.

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It's the end of the world as we know it, and I feel fine.

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Wednesday, March 25, 2009 3:07 PM

Freedom is Important because People are Important

Hello,

I agree that you do not give a vagrant a truckload of money, no strings attached, and then complain about what he does with it. The fault there is not in the stars.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reversal_of_Fortune_(2005_film)

--Anthony

"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner

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Wednesday, March 25, 2009 3:28 PM

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

Anyone remember this from 2007 ?

Wednesday September 17, 10:32 AM
AIG rescued by Fed, Barclays buys Lehman US unit
By Lilla Zuill and Jonathan Stempel
NEW YORK (Reuters) - Capping an extraordinary day in financial markets, U.S. authorities pieced together an emergency $85 billion rescue of insurance company American International Group Inc to stave off a bankruptcy that could have thrown world markets into deeper turmoil.

How about this from October 2008 ?

A.I.G. to Get Additional $37.8 Billion
Published: October 8, 2008
The Federal Reserve Board said Wednesday that it would provide up to $37.8 billion to the embattled insurer the American International Group to help it deal with a rapidly dwindling supply of cash.

Remember December 2008 ?

With Fed's Help, AIG Unloads $16 Billion in Credit Default Swaps
By Hugh Son
Bloomberg News
Thursday, December 25, 2008; Page D02
American International Group retired $16 billion in credit default swaps, the contracts that almost caused the company's collapse, after buying the underlying securities with help from the Federal Reserve.

$139 Billion of tax money to AIG - and WHO was president ?

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I can't HEEeeaaar you !

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Wednesday, March 25, 2009 4:57 PM

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

C'mon doooods.

This was cooked up between George and the Fed - no Obama or Congress in sight. But I'm SURE you can find a way to blame them ! Do what you usually do ! Get creative with the truth !

Show us what you're made of.

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Silence is consent.

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Wednesday, March 25, 2009 5:16 PM

America loves a winner!

rue,

I'm not assigning party blame here, because it's all their damn fault. But Dodd blatantly lied to CNN, and then got caught, fessing up the next day.

Don't pass this off on those who are no longer in office. The real crooks are still IN Washington.

I didn't think you'd get it. I had hoped for better, but once again, you proved disappointing.

"As much as I respect what he's doing, really the economy is something he should focus on more than the brackets. "
- Duke University basketball coach Mike Krzyzewski, after Obama snubbed Duke in his Final Four picks.

The U.S. economy WAS on fire under Bush, for 6 years. Until the Democrats took control of Congress. It's been all down hill since then.

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Wednesday, March 25, 2009 5:31 PM

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

Once again you seem to not know what you posted.

"the flames of discontent ... should be rightfully reserved for none other than those in Congress ..."

Congress had nothing to do with the vast majority of the AIG bailout - 139 out of 170 billion - its terms or conditions. That was cooked up SOLELY by George and the Fed, and the blame rests solely on them.

"Instead , they're trying to pull the wool over everyone's eyes, in blaming A.I.G., for our entire economic mess ..."

AIG deserves a nearly all of the blame.
MOST BANKS were invested in AIG. If AIG had gone under, the wave of bank failures would have taken down the world economy overnight. The entire world would have been reduced to the third world. Sound appetizing ?
'Bad debts' or 'toxic assets' weren't the problem, either. The sole unmitigated disaster rests on AIG's 'credit default swaps'.
Yes, AIG is to blame. The rest could easily have been handled.

So ARE the crooks in Congress ? Or are the crooks George, the Fed and AIG ?

Most people get it.

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Silence is consent.

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Wednesday, March 25, 2009 6:11 PM

PIRATENEWS

John Lee, conspiracy therapist at Hollywood award-winner History Channel-mocked SNL-spoofed PirateNew.org wooHOO!!!!!!

AIG was formely spelled OSS, then CIA. Its in The Franklin Coverup.

AIG invests trillions in looted CAFR govt pensions.

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Wednesday, March 25, 2009 6:30 PM

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

This is not to say I approve of Obama's past actions and future plans either.

As I mentioned before, he is FAR more conservative than most people realize.

The 'troubled assets' at the core of the problem are, dollars-wise, only a small part of the problem.

Let's say there were 1 million foreclosures in 2006, 2 million in 2007 and 3 million in 2008. Of those, let's say people couldn't come up with 25% of the payment. And further, let's say the average home in the US went for $250,000.
That works out to $375 billion in toxic assets - FAR less than the $700 billion in TARP funds plus the $2 - 7 TRILLION the Fed distributed off the books at the end of 2008.

In addition, after ALL that money went to the big money guys, homeowners were STILL on the hook for homes they couldn't afford.

If what Obama had done instead of more of the same as Georgie, was to find a way to directly help homeowners refinance -

he would have saved millions families from foreclosure
he would have saved the housing market
he would have saved the banking institutions
he would have saved TRILLIONS in taxpayer dollars.

He even would have saved AIG's worthless butt for mere pennies. But that's socialism ! And that's probably what put the very conservative Obama off the idea.

Yeah, socialism would have done a better job than capitalism. Too bad people are afraid of what works.

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Silence is consent.

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Wednesday, March 25, 2009 7:18 PM

Freedom is Important because People are Important

Hello,

I do not think the bailout can be described as anything but socialism. A less effective route, perhaps, than the route you'd have followed. But no one said socialism all had the same stripe.

Capitalism is a great big untried unknown in this scenario. Because capitalism would have required that we do what we are consistently told is unthinkable.

Nothing.

--Anthony

"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner

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Thursday, March 26, 2009 6:53 AM

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

"Capitalism is a great big untried unknown in this scenario."

I think there is one good example of where it had been tried - and that is the Great Depression. Unemployment peaked at 24.9%. People starved. Many were homeless. Meanwhile, the very wealthy were even wealthier.

It did not go well for the vast majority of people.

So, I have to ask you - if the economy is not designed to serves the needs of the people --- what is it for ?

http://www.huppi.com/kangaroo/Timeline.htm

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Silence is consent.

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Thursday, March 26, 2009 6:57 AM

America loves a winner!

Quote:
Originally posted by rue:

Congress had nothing to do with the vast majority of the AIG bailout - 139 out of 170 billion - its terms or conditions. That was cooked up SOLELY by George and the Fed, and the blame rests solely on them.

Oh really? Is that true ? Then what the hell was it that Chris Dodd was caught lying about, to CNN , to which he came back the VERY NEXT DAY and tried to play CYA ?

The U.S. economy WAS on fire under Bush, for 6 years. Until the Democrats took control of Congress. It's been all down hill since then.

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Thursday, March 26, 2009 7:17 AM

America loves a winner!

Dodd's Wife a Former Director of Bermuda-Based IPC Holdings, an AIG Controlled Company

No wonder Senator Christopher Dodd (D-Conn) went wobbly last week when asked about his February amendment ratifying hundreds of millions of dollars in bonuses to executives at insurance giant AIG. Dodd has been one of the company's favorite recipients of campaign contributions. But it turns out that Senator Dodd's wife has also benefited from past connections to AIG as well.

From 2001-2004, Jackie Clegg Dodd served as an "outside" director of IPC Holdings, Ltd., a Bermuda-based company controlled by AIG. IPC, which provides property casualty catastrophe insurance coverage, was formed in 1993 and currently has a market cap of $1.4 billion and trades on the NASDAQ under the ticker symbol IPCR. In 2001, in addition to a public offering of 15 million shares of stock that raised $380 million, IPC raised more than $109 million through a simultaneous private placement sale of 5.6 million shares of stock to AIG - giving AIG a 20% stake in IPC. (AIG sold its 13.397 million shares in IPC in August, 2006.)

Clegg was compensated for her duties to the company, which was managed by a subsidiary of AIG. In 2003, according to a proxy statement, Clegg received $12,000 per year and an additional $1,000 for each Directors' and committee meeting she attended. Clegg served on the Audit and Investment committees during her final year on the board.

IPC paid millions each year to other AIG-related companies for administrative and other services. Clegg was a diligent director. In 2003, the proxy statement report, she attended more than 75% of board and committee meetings. This while she served as the managing partner of Clegg International Consultants, LLC, which she created in 2001, the year she joined the board of IPC. (See Dodd's public financial disclosure reports with the Senate from 2001-2004 here.)

Dodd is likely more familiar with the complicated workings of AIG than he was letting on last week. This week may provide him with another opportunity to refresh his recollections.
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http://www.realclearpolitics.com/articles/2009/03/dodds_wife_a_former_
director_o.html

"As much as I respect what he's doing, really the economy is something he should focus on more than the brackets. "
- Duke University basketball coach Mike Krzyzewski, after Obama snubbed Duke in his Final Four picks.

The U.S. economy WAS on fire under Bush, for 6 years. Until the Democrats took control of Congress. It's been all down hill since then.

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Thursday, March 26, 2009 7:31 AM

Freedom is Important because People are Important

"So, I have to ask you - if the economy is not designed to serves the needs of the people --- what is it for?"

Hello,

Rue, you should know that you have been instrumental in refining and even shattering and rebuilding many of my perceptions of socialism. I am currently leaning towards the concept of a 'minimum guarantee' for all citizens, that is a guarantee that the minimum necessities of life will be provided, whilst all luxuries must be striven for.

Essentially, you ought to be able to count on a roof over your head, food in your mouth, education in your mind, and medicine in your body. This would be the 'minimum guarantee' of government, its promise to the people, right up there with freedom of speech and the rest.

So even I am no longer an advocate for 'pure capitalism.'

However, the point I am arguing is that we have not seen the ultimate path of 'pure capitalism.' In each case where capitalism enters a major self-corrective phase (which we call a depression/recession) it seems to me that the government steps in and interrupts the process. We don't know what, if anything, comes after a depression that is left unmolested. It's entirely possible that the system goes on in its sine wave, escalating back up without help.

I am reminded of a short story by, I believe, Isaac Asimov. It is called Nightfall. A society lives on a world where it is always daylight. Always. But an archaeologist on the world notes that every few thousand years, all of civilization is consumed in a conflagration. This is both puzzling and troubling, because the next conflagration is scheduled soon. If he can not figure out why civilization periodically dies out, it will happen again.

Soon enough, a rare alignment of the suns and solar objects causes a total eclipse. One which lasts for several days. A world that knows only perpetual daylight is thrust into night. Going mad for want of light, the citizenry start to burn everything they can find. Books, furniture, even buildings are set to blaze. Some people go to rioting and murder. Eventually, the sun rises again, but the damage is done. Civilization has once again been destroyed, and must rebuild from the ashes.

The actions during a recession/depression remind me of this story. Times become difficult, and on the premise that something must be done immediately, drastic action is taken. The very framework of society is often altered.

But what if, as the song says, The Sun will Come Up Tomorrow?

--Anthony

"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner

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Thursday, March 26, 2009 7:59 AM

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)

'Rap, thanks for the info on Dodd and his wife. Interesting stuff.

Now, if you can bear it, look into Phil & Wendy Gramm, and see where that takes you. It's not pretty, and it may be eye-opening.

As has been noted before, there's plenty of bad to go around, on both sides of the aisle.

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Thursday, March 26, 2009 1:41 PM

I shouldn't do this. I'll pay in the morning ;-) Guess who manages the retirement fund that Congress pays into (with your money) since they opted out of Social Security? AIG.

I don't care which party you want to blame this on, they (AIG) should be allowed to go down in flames. It won't happen though because of the Congressional Pension issue. Pretty damned cheap "get out of jail free card" if you ask me.

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Thursday, March 26, 2009 1:51 PM

America loves a winner!

Phil Gramm? Dude's been out of office for 6 years. WTF ?

"As much as I respect what he's doing, really the economy is something he should focus on more than the brackets. "
- Duke University basketball coach Mike Krzyzewski, after Obama snubbed Duke in his Final Four picks.

The U.S. economy WAS on fire under Bush, for 6 years. Until the Democrats took control of Congress. It's been all down hill since then.

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Thursday, March 26, 2009 2:50 PM

Guess it was too much to ask...

Mike

I'm something of a ne'er-do-well
even though that's something I could never do well...

The "On Fire" Economy -
The Dow closed at 10,587.60 on January 20, 2001, the day GW Bush took office. Eight years later, it closed below 8000 on the day he left office - a net loss of 25%. That's what conservatives call an economic "success".

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Thursday, March 26, 2009 4:57 PM

GEEZER

Keep the Shiny side up

Just running some figures, without any opinion.

If the government loans to AIG are around $170 billion and the bonuses AIG paid are around $170 million, then the all bonuses paid by AIG (before they cancelled most of them) are one tenth of one percent (one thousandth) of the loan.

If the AIG workforce of 118,000 earns an average salary of $50,000(it's probably more, but I can't find the figures), then the total bonuses is a bit less than 3% of AIGs total payroll.

"Keep the Shiny side up"

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Thursday, March 26, 2009 5:04 PM

America loves a winner!

Oh yeah? But what about Huey Long!

"As much as I respect what he's doing, really the economy is something he should focus on more than the brackets. "
- Duke University basketball coach Mike Krzyzewski, after Obama snubbed Duke in his Final Four picks.

The U.S. economy WAS on fire under Bush, for 6 years. Until the Democrats took control of Congress. It's been all down hill since then.

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Friday, March 27, 2009 1:36 AM

Why stop there? Why not blame FDR some more?

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Friday, March 27, 2009 1:54 AM

YINYANG

You were busy trying to get yourself lit on fire. It happens.

Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko:
Why stop there? Why not blame FDR some more?

Everything bad that has ever happened in the history of the universe is completely and entirely 100% FDR's fault. All of it.

(Oh, wait, what does that smiley mean?)

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Friday, March 27, 2009 7:14 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by yinyang:
Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko:
Why stop there? Why not blame FDR some more?

Everything bad that has ever happened in the history of the universe is completely and entirely 100% FDR's fault. All of it.

(Oh, wait, what does that smiley mean?)

Weird - I thought Chris Dodd and Barney Frank were to blame for everything bad that ever happened. Are you SURE it was FDR? 'Cuz I'm pretty sure Barney Frank sank the USS Maine.

Bastard killed Gus Grissom, too. :(

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Friday, March 27, 2009 8:22 AM

Don't forget assinating Lincoln .... the John Wilkes Booth thing was a CIA plant.

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Friday, March 27, 2009 8:22 AM

Don't forget assinating Lincoln .... the John Wilkes Booth thing was a CIA plant.

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Friday, March 27, 2009 8:29 AM

CITIZEN

Barney Frank caused the above double post.

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Friday, March 27, 2009 8:32 AM

The fact that I am a klutz is also a clever CIA ruse.

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Friday, March 27, 2009 9:20 AM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Quote:
However, the point I am arguing is that we have not seen the ultimate path of 'pure capitalism.'

The ultimate path of pure captalism is monopolism and abject poverty for the vast majority. That's based on trajectories established by (1) economies of scale (2) ever-decreasing labor costs (3) efficiency of undivided power and (4) profit motive.

The ultimate end:

Quote:
70,000 workers or hormigueros, "ants", carry sacks of dirt down ladders at the Serra Pelada, or Naked Mountain, gold mine in Brazil.

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It's the end of the world as we know it, and I feel fine.

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Friday, March 27, 2009 10:37 AM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Kibera slum, land of the "flying toilet". (That's when you shit in a plastic bag and toss the bag up and out because there's no sanitation. But, ya got the ubiquitous plastic bag, by god!)

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It's the end of the world as we know it, and I feel fine.

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Friday, March 27, 2009 10:44 AM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

The lucky ones:

Quote:
The center's 40-page report found sexual and physical abuse, debt bondage, child labor and unsafe working conditions are common in Thailand and Bangladesh's shrimp processing factories, and that Thai plants often use trafficked workers.
"There's so much slime on the floor you can hardly stand up, and that just keeping your bearing and footing while you are trying to do work that involves using sharp knives," Ellie Larson, the executive director of the Solidarity Center, told CNN.

"They are treated in ways I'm sure most American people think went by in the days of slavery. In fact that's the kind of conditions these workers are engaged in -- slave conditions," Larson said.

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It's the end of the world as we know it, and I feel fine.

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Friday, March 27, 2009 11:04 AM

Freedom is Important because People are Important

Hello,

I suppose pure capitalism in the absence of any protective governmental framework does indeed look like this.

You know, without laws or a bill or rights or things like that there.

Perhaps also with the government performing enforcement on behalf of the corporations, instead of the people.

--Anthony

"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner

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Friday, March 27, 2009 11:10 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by startroop:
The fact that I am a klutz is also a clever CIA ruse.

"Klutz", huh? Sounds... Jewish.

I'm gonna be watchin' you...

(If you're not sure whether or not I'm joking, refer to some of my past posts to PN's nuttiness!)

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Friday, March 27, 2009 11:13 AM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Quote:
Perhaps also with the government performing enforcement on behalf of the corporations, instead of the people.

That's the problem with the law of efficiency of undivided power: a corporate head can direct the work of many towards a single goal (even if the goal is political) while the many will be divided in their individual directions.

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It's the end of the world as we know it, and I feel fine.

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Friday, March 27, 2009 11:22 AM

Freedom is Important because People are Important

Hello,

This sounds somewhat like the prelude to a law making the meeting of ten or more people illegal.

If what you say is true, then it is organizations, not capitalism, that is a problem. How do we cope with the fact that large organizations hold large amounts of power?

--Anthony

"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner

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Friday, March 27, 2009 11:39 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by AnthonyT:
Hello,

I suppose pure capitalism in the absence of any protective governmental framework does indeed look like this.

You know, without laws or a bill or rights or things like that there.

Perhaps also with the government performing enforcement on behalf of the corporations, instead of the people.

--Anthony

"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner

What you are describing sounds an awful lot like the end-goal of Republican deregulation.

Mike

I'm something of a ne'er-do-well
even though that's something I could never do well...

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Friday, March 27, 2009 11:46 AM

If you are watching me, you obviously have way too much free time ;-)

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Friday, March 27, 2009 12:06 PM

CITIZEN

Quote:
Originally posted by startroop:
If you are watching me, you obviously have way too much free time ;-)

He's getting Barney Frank to do it.

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Friday, March 27, 2009 12:12 PM

That is so wrong on so many levels that I am just going to surrender. You win the quip contest!

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Friday, March 27, 2009 12:40 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by startroop:
That is so wrong on so many levels that I am just going to surrender. You win the quip contest!

Don't surrender! Join the fun!

By the way, NSA is going to be renaming their Echelon surveillance system "Barney Frank" in honor of his awesome power!

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Friday, March 27, 2009 12:44 PM

I would be so non-PC with what is going through my head that I might get drummed out of the Browncoats ......

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Friday, March 27, 2009 12:47 PM

CITIZEN

Quote:
Originally posted by startroop:
That is so wrong on so many levels that I am just going to surrender. You win the quip contest!

Barney Frank says you're cute.

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Friday, March 27, 2009 12:51 PM

FREMDFIRMA

Quote:
Originally posted by AnthonyT:
Perhaps also with the government performing enforcement on behalf of the corporations, instead of the people.

Check out the history of Union Labor, particularly the IWW, from 1905-1960

That's EXACTLY what much of the problem was, and is.

A corporation can always call on the entire might of the US Military under the guise of keeping the peace, they've done it historically so often that the workers never stood a chance - and had to spill ludicrous amounts of their own blood for even the most minimal of gains.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_strikes
While the deletionists (aka pro-corp revisionists) have been desperately trying to make this little problem dissappear, the list is still useful for general research despite many of the pages for the incidents themselves having been dropped down the memory hole.

Times the US Military intervened on behalf of corporations - uncountable.

Times the US Military intervened to protect the workers from corporate abuses - ZERO.

Unionists can fight a corporation and its goons, they can NOT fight a corporation, and its goons backed up by the entire might of the US Military, and if they *could*, then what would be the point of not simply taking over ?

The collusion has always been there, just out of the public eye, in fact the US Dept of Justice was initially formed on the structure of Pinkertons murderous strikebreaker goons, and THAT apple never really has fallen far from the original tree - although in 1893 the Anti-Pinkerton Act was passed to prevent this practice, it's still to this day mostly ignored.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-Pinkerton_Act

Especially given that US Gov contracts with Blackwater, Dyncorp and others quite specifically violate it.

All the Gov would have to do... is simply NOT intervene, and while there would be a period of ugliness without a doubt, without the "big stick" of the whole US Military behind them the corporations would soon learn it's simply not cost effective when you not only have to pay off mercs, but once you engage them, lose public sympathy and have trouble getting anyone to work for you.

The problem is most folk do not know enough history to understand how we wound up here, in spite of our current system being a very close copy of Mussolini Corpo-Fascism.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_Italy_under_Fascism,_1922%E2%8
0%931943

I use the signature I do for a right good reason, cause it's really painful to watch our country go round and round endlessly repeating even it's most OBVIOUS historical mistakes.

-Frem
It cannot be said enough, those who do not learn from history, are doomed to endlessly repeat it

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Friday, March 27, 2009 12:55 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by startroop:
I would be so non-PC with what is going through my head that I might get drummed out of the Browncoats ......

Don't bet on it - this is the RWED area! Anything goes!

And thin skins don't last long around here.

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Friday, March 27, 2009 1:03 PM

Startroop: I heartily encourage you to join the discussions. Argue. Debate. If nothing else, just drop in and toss some snark into a heated argument now and again.

You might be surprised. You might learn some new stuff, and you damn well might TEACH some new stuff, too.

Just one warning, at least as far as me personally: I tend to respond in kind. Ask RIPWash - he (or she; I'm not sure yet) has been nothing but kind and respectful, even when we disagree vehemently, so I strive to respond in the same fashion. Some others have taken... different avenues, so I have accommodated them similarly.

But anyway, you're here, the water's fine, so jump on in!

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Friday, March 27, 2009 1:15 PM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Quote:
Times the US Military intervened on behalf of corporations - uncountable.

especially considering that most of our interventions overseas had more to do with making the world safe for capitalism, not freedom. That's why we fostered, armed, and trained so many tyrants.

---------------------------------
It's the end of the world as we know it, and I feel fine.

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Friday, March 27, 2009 1:55 PM

Freedom is Important because People are Important

Hello,

But is this any more a damnation of the Capitalist process than Cuba or Russia should be a damnation of the Socialist process?

None of these things seem to be about an economic system.

--Anthony

"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner

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Friday, March 27, 2009 2:11 PM

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

"But is this any more a damnation of the Capitalist process ... ?"

I'd say yes. Capitalism must either expand or crash. That's b/c profit is like entropy - wealth is inevitably made unavailable for circulation as it accumulates in the hands of the few. Sooner or later the system grinds to a halt unless something is done. That something is either creating new money out of nothing to inject at the bottom - inflation; or constant expansion into new labor markets - war, colonialism, or 3rd-world production.

We don't feel the effects of capitalism b/c, so far, we've exported them. However, given the globalists intent to turn the entire world into a company town, we may yet have the delightful opportunity to do so.

***************************************************************

Silence is consent.

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Friday, March 27, 2009 2:14 PM

Freedom is Important because People are Important

Hello,

But what of the cruelties generated in human attempts at Socialist societies?

Do they demonstrate that Socialism is bad?

--Anthony

"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner

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Friday, March 27, 2009 2:21 PM