GM chief Wagoner ousted by Obama by Geezer

Don't waste too many of your tears crying over Rick Wagoner - his retirement buyout is said to be worth $23 million, so I think he's probably going to land on his feet.

The funny part is, he'll get another CEO job with some damn-fool company, and they won't even notice that under his "leadership", GM stock lost over 96% of its value.

That's livin' the American dream, folks!

\m/

I'm something of a ne'er-do-well
even though that's something I could never do well...

The "On Fire" Economy -
The Dow closed at 10,587.60 on January 20, 2001, the day GW Bush took office. Eight years later, it closed below 8000 on the day he left office - a net loss of 25%. That's what conservatives call an economic "success".

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Monday, March 30, 2009 1:33 PM

WHOZIT

http://finance.yahoo.com/news/Workers-say-Obama-treated-apf-14789941.h
tml

Most of these over paid union douchebags voted for Barry, sorry but they'll get no pitty from me

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Monday, March 30, 2009 3:31 PM

CITIZEN

Quote:
Originally posted by AnthonyT:
They said, "Take this money. Nice, isn't it? Now, you're going to do what we say!"

Yeah, it's just like a share holder in a company, that's just bought a major stake in it, thinking they have a right to a say in it's operation.

Since when do shareholders get a say?

I mean it's not like the car manufactures lobbied for a government bailout is it? Its not like they then took it willingly. Its not like the White House only asked, not forced the guy to step down. Its not like he only stepped down so that the government would give them more money that they were asking for...

They wanted the money. They asked for it. My take is that the Government, not wanting to throw good money after bad, said "if you want more money, there'll have to be some changes". Then GM decided to make those changes, in order to get their hands on lots of lovely free money. They could of just said no, keep your money, we'll carry on as we are. They chose between keeping their CEO, and a big federal bailout they were asking for.

That's where your loan analogy breaks down. Even if there was more merit to it, its chronology and spin are wrong. It's like a lender, who's just given you money for a new house, saying "ok, we'll re-mortgage for you, but there's some extra stipulations you'll have to adhere to if you do". Honestly there's a lot of "anti-socialism" folks getting all upset because some company isn't getting free money right about here. Don't feel sorry for them, they've made their choices with full knowledge of what that entails from day one. In fact this company had more foreknowledge of what their demands for more money would entail, than most of the people looking to lose their homes after being sold bad loans, that so many around here are happy to throw to the wolves. Less "respect for public enterprise", and more deferring to corporatism.

What I find really funny is seeing those that defended torture, extraordinary rendition, and illegal wars (that's not you by the wat AT) to the hilt, shout Fascism when Obama puts some rather minor rules on the purse strings.

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Monday, March 30, 2009 3:39 PM

Keep the Shiny side up

Quote:
Originally posted by PhoenixRose:
If it's found that the grant money that was meant for development has instead gone into a CEO bonus package? YES.
Where are you getting the thing about controlling salary? I just saw an irresponsible cretin being removed from the danger zone, not any statements about what the workers will make hence forth.

You're confusing GM with AIG. No one is accusing GM management of using the bailout money for bonuses. It's AIG which the government is threatening with punative taxes, for paying bonuses equal to around 3% of their annual payroll. GM just isn't doing what the government thinks it needs to to become solvent. Considering how deep in the hole the proposed 2009 U.S. budget puts us, is the government really the best judge of how to make a profit?

Quote:
That might well have been a better use for that 17 billion dollars. However, I have to say, if I asked someone for 17 billion dollars for a repair job on my office building or something, and they actually gave it to me, and four months later I had a new car, new jet, new house, and a private island, but the roof on the company that should have been supplying my income was still leaking and I said "Oh no, I'm out of money, will you help me out again?" I think they'd be justified in being upset with me.

You're the kind of person the current government loves. You don't know who's doing what, don't look beyond the soundbites the media feeds you, and are jealous of folks who make more money than you - who are obviously (in your opinion) ripping everyone off. They can channel your misguided rage to support pretty much anything they want to do.

"Keep the Shiny side up"

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Monday, March 30, 2009 4:26 PM

Quote:

No one is accusing GM management of using the bailout money for bonuses.

Well, they ARE giving Wagoner some $23,000,000 on his way out the door after being "fired" by the President... Some might see that as an unearned bonus, unless tanking the company's stock was all part of Wagoner's plan from the outset.

Quote:

You're the kind of person the current government loves. You don't know who's doing what, don't look beyond the soundbites the media feeds you, and are jealous of folks who make more money than you - who are obviously (in your opinion) ripping everyone off. They can channel your misguided rage to support pretty much anything they want to do.

And you were the kind of person the previous government loved. You didn't care who was doing what, didn't look beyond the soundbites the White House fed you, and were dismissive of folks who made less money than you - who were obviously (in your opinion) ripping you off. They could channel your misguided rage to support pretty much anything they wanted to do.

As for better uses for $17 billion, why don't you go invade Iraq some more; after all, it's only going to cost us $17 billion, remember?

Kinda sucks to get painted with that same broad brush you just used, huh?

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Monday, March 30, 2009 5:08 PM

PIZMOBEACH

... fully loaded, safety off...

The value of GM stock dropped 96% under Wagoner. Um, ok?

As if that's not enough, GM basically held a loaded gun to the head of OUR government saying they would have to lay off x-thousand average every day workers if they didn't get a bailout, and that thousands of their suppliers' businesses would also have to shut down if they didn't get a bailout... are you kidding? The guy should be shaved into pieces... very slowly... people complain about bonuses? And then complain this guy getting axed? Which way do you want it?

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Monday, March 30, 2009 5:51 PM

Freedom is Important because People are Important

Hello,

I want us to not interfere with this business and let it burn to the ground.

I wish the rising smoke from this industry to be a signpost for all time that there is no such thing as 'too big to fail.'

I wish the government to foster new competition to these failed businesses, rather than propping up the decaying corpse of the old.

--Anthony

"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner

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Monday, March 30, 2009 6:02 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Quote:
people complain about bonuses? And then complain this guy getting axed? Which way do you want it?

Both ways, apparently.

---------------------------------
It's the end of the world as we know it, and I feel fine.

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Monday, March 30, 2009 6:39 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Quote:
fascism is in the eye of the beholder.

Yeah, yeah. Whatever.

---------------------------------
It's the end of the world as we know it, and I feel fine.

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Monday, March 30, 2009 9:02 PM

RIVERDANCER

Hey there, Geezer, could I have a billion dollars, no strings attached? Just a single middling billion, apparently a drop in the bucket, especially in comparison with all else. Whatdya say?

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Monday, March 30, 2009 10:58 PM

JEWELSTAITEFAN

I thought "free enterprise" was a tenet of American success.

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Tuesday, March 31, 2009 1:01 AM

RIPWASH

In my opinion, it's stuff like this

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2009/01/28/business/main4760545.shtml

that is part of the problem. This kind of crap should have stopped a long time ago and it's my understanding the "jobs bank" has been around quite a while. Do the math, folks. I looked it up on the UAW site and an average worker gets paid $30/hour. If the people at this jobs bank are getting paid full salary to sit around and do nothing: $30 x 40/hrs x 52 weeks x 1,600 people . . . that comes to over $99 million a year that could have been put to use elsewhere. Feel free to correct my math, but I've done it twice and it came out the same way. And I'm not even certain if that includes standard benefits that these people were apparently provided with also.

If this is true, then think about how much GM could have spent on re-tooling, upgrading, modernizing, research, etc. It just blows my mind that this was allowed to continue.

Zoe: "Get it running again."
Mal: "Yeah"
Zoe: "So not running now"
Mal: "Not so much"
- Out of Gas

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Tuesday, March 31, 2009 1:56 AM

Keep the Shiny side up

Quote:
Originally posted by RiverDancer:
Hey there, Geezer, could I have a billion dollars, no strings attached? Just a single middling billion, apparently a drop in the bucket, especially in comparison with all else. Whatdya say?

The money GM got was a loan, and you can bet there were strings attached, the biggest string being that it should be repaid. Very few folks seem to have figured this out; instead assuming that it's just a gift.

Maybe this explains the financial crisis. So many folk out there who didn't understand a loan was meant to be repaid.

"Keep the Shiny side up"

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Tuesday, March 31, 2009 2:02 AM

Keep the Shiny side up

Quote:
Originally posted by pizmobeach:
The guy should be shaved into pieces... very slowly... people complain about bonuses? And then complain this guy getting axed? Which way do you want it?

Well, I'd like to see a bit less of the lynch mob mentality. I'll probably be disappointed.

"Keep the Shiny side up"

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Tuesday, March 31, 2009 2:03 AM

And so many others who apparently don't understand that loans occasionally have conditions that must be met...

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Tuesday, March 31, 2009 2:06 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Geezer:
Quote:
Originally posted by pizmobeach:
The guy should be shaved into pieces... very slowly... people complain about bonuses? And then complain this guy getting axed? Which way do you want it?

Well, I'd like to see a bit less of the lynch mob mentality. I'll probably be disappointed.

"Keep the Shiny side up"

Yes, the kill-'em-all mentality should ONLY be applied to Muslims...

[/snark]

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Tuesday, March 31, 2009 2:06 AM

SERGEANTX

Ripwash

I spent half my life working in a union, and while I can't speak for all union workers, nor all unions, my experience was mixed at best. While there were still legitimate labor interests being represented, there was also an embarrassing amount of cruft.

There was a surprising level of the "I got mine" mentality and in many ways the union functioned as an exclusive club more intent on preserving member privileges than defending legitimate labor interests.

That said, the 'jobs bank' isn't as egregious as it might sound. Essentially it's extended unemployment insurance bargained for through legitimate contract negotiations. It's paid for from revenue that would have, in theory, been used to pay higher wages. In one sense it's a ripoff that those who have been 'paying into' the system for years will now have the benefit yanked when they may need it most.

In any case, the benefit was bargained for (relatively) honestly through legal contract negotiations. If there's any imbalance of power it rests in the legislation and regulations that prevent real open bargaining. Throughout the latter half of the twentieth century, labor law in the US became a form of largess from politicians used to buy votes from the unions.

SergeantX

"Dream a little dream or you can live a little dream. I'd rather live it, cause dreamers always chase but never get it." Aesop Rock

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Tuesday, March 31, 2009 2:22 AM

RIPWASH

Thanks for the insight, Sarge. It does help one understand the situation a little better. Your view on the unions from an inside perspective is pretty much what I've heard for a long time now. The laborers are out for themselves and that's it. Some (I'd say "many" but don't want to overstep my bounds) do as little as possible in order to make their quota or even put the "brakes" on what they're doing so they can come in over the weekends and earn overtime pay to do what they could have done in the span of a regular work week anyway.

I see what you're saying about the jobs bank, but it just doesn't look good to anyone not familiar with the process (and possibly even to those who are). 1,600 people would have been laid off. That's not a good thing, I understand that. But as I see it (again as one standing outside the system) to pay their full wage while they do basically nothing is taking gross advantage of the situation. These people could have possibly been looking for work elsewhere, but why should they? They're still getting paid. Meanwhile the company still has to keep their wages (unproductive pay in any way shape or form) in their books and thus part of the bottom line for which they have to make up for in sales.

All I'm saying is that $99 million a year is a huge chunk of change that could have gone toward lowering the sticker price on the cars and stimulate the economy, along with building their revenue and avoiding the mess they're in now.

Zoe: "Get it running again."
Mal: "Yeah"
Zoe: "So not running now"
Mal: "Not so much"
- Out of Gas

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Tuesday, March 31, 2009 2:58 AM

PIZMOBEACH

... fully loaded, safety off...

Quote:
Originally posted by Geezer:
Quote:
Originally posted by pizmobeach:
The guy should be shaved into pieces... very slowly... people complain about bonuses? And then complain this guy getting axed? Which way do you want it?

Well, I'd like to see a bit less of the lynch mob mentality. I'll probably be disappointed.

I have less of a problem with the bonuses - while they may be another gut punch they are not the source of the problem and they are legally obligated - we need to swallow hard and move on, one of life's pains to beare.

These guys though... as opposed to Anthony's desire to shred these businesses "watching them burn down" (dude, where'd you go?) this is a quick and surgical and powerful stroke with much less collateral damage. You think other CEOs don't feel like they've been served? "Oh sh*t, I didn't know he could do that!"

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Tuesday, March 31, 2009 6:09 AM

Freedom is Important because People are Important

Hello,

I love that America builds things. I hate that America has been building less and less each year since my birth. I'll be the first to shed a tear if/when we lose our automotive manufacturing industry, which I consider to be one of the last major manufacturing industries in the states.

However, it is a false dilemma to suggest that these companies can't be allowed to fail. They can be, and they should be. Because they have failed. They've been failing for years. And who was complaining while they were failing? Who was shouting a decade ago?

Me. I was. You have no idea how excited I was to someday buy my electric car. The best damn thing about Voyager was watching Voyager actors tout the EV-1 in television commercials. A viable electic car in 1990 built by an American car company? It was like watching the Jetsons come to life. And all the other car companies were licensing technology from GM. The Japanese were taking a step back from innovation and were forced to copy again. America was poised to recapture the leading edge of an emerging market.

It looks like I'll still get my chance, but the industry was retarded for a decade while the auto manufacturers tried to kill the idea. So I have a 2002 Kia Sportage in my driveway instead of a next-generation electric SUV. I almost want to shout in angst when I think about how electric car technology could have been nearly perfected in early 2000 if production and R&D had steamed full ahead, instead of sputtered along despite everyone's best intentions.

So, rather than 'bail out' these car companies and try to drag them kicking and screaming in the right direction despite themselves... rather than implement highly questionable retroactive punitive taxes and strong-arm tactics to force behavior... let them die. And as mercenary as it sounds, Piz, the smoke of their charred remains would be a much more effective warning to other businesses than retiring a CEO and filling his bank account with cash.

It's about right and wrong, and we seem to be doing everything in our arsenal to approach things from the absolute wrong angles. (In my opinion.)

--Anthony

edited to add: This is one of the commercials I remember from the Voyager cast.

http://ev1-club.power.net/ads/marvin2.aiff

"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner

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Tuesday, March 31, 2009 6:50 AM

Quote:
So I have a 2002 Kia Sportage in my driveway

You poor, poor bastard - hope you paid for the extended warranty, cause workin on a Kia is a nightmare, and a sportage is worse!

There's no Hanes, no Clymer, about all you can do is hack the KGIS database and raid it for what little info there is - and then wrap your mind around such insanities as putting a seperate ignition coil on each spark plug instead of using a distributor cap, and tack welds in places where there should be screws...

Then somehow get it apart despite the fact that it was built without a care or concept that it might ever need repair instead of disposal, figure out what needs be replaced, actually FIND those parts if the dealer don't carry em, which is a quite common problem, and then some how, some way, get that thing put back together despite having to break some of those welds to get it apart in the first place...

Bonus points for doing this when it's raining, and getting dark - double points for needing to get under the hood and try to hook up hoses directly behind the center of the whole damn engine block and six inches above the transmission housing with 2" of room between that and the firewall for sufficient distance that no conventional tool will reach that far, and all surrounded by nasty bits of fairly sharp metal, once piece of which in particular having ZERO function whatever (maybe it was a clamp for a part not present on that model) save to present a serious injury risk to anyone attempting this.

Pro-tip, if your Kia sportage heater core starts leaking - set the goddamn thing on fire and walk away, you'll thank me, I swear.

-Frem

It cannot be said enough, those who do not learn from history, are doomed to endlessly repeat it

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Tuesday, March 31, 2009 6:53 AM

WULFENSTAR

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg

Man...I cannot wait for Tesla (or someone else) to finally make an electric car I can afford. Simplicity = reliability.

Then, I can install some solar panels, and charge my car for free.

Not to mention upgrading my engine (i.e. battery) every 2 to 3 years.... SWEET!

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Tuesday, March 31, 2009 6:53 AM

Re: Exec Bonuses.

Simple, at least to me.

"Dude, we're BROKE, we hired you to keep us afloat and you ran us into the ground and now we're bankrupt you shithead - we got nothing TO pay you with, thanks to your fucking incompetence, so hows about you whistle for it and be on your merry!"

Even Mal would agree, if you DON'T do the job, ya shouldn't get paid.

Niska would take that a mite bit further, and I find myself a little more sympathetic to that position, honestly.

-Frem

It cannot be said enough, those who do not learn from history, are doomed to endlessly repeat it

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Tuesday, March 31, 2009 7:08 AM

Freedom is Important because People are Important

Hello,

Problem is, Frem, they did all the job a bonus required. The bonus was in their contracts, and the stipulation for receiving it was met.

Bad contracts? Sure. Legal contracts? Absolutely.

Targeted punitive taxes? I thought you didn't like those, Frem. It's like if they raised the tax on cigarettes RETROACTIVELY. It's not kosher, no matter how I slice it.

--Anthony

"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner

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Tuesday, March 31, 2009 7:29 AM

Quote:
The bonus was in their contracts, and the stipulation for receiving it was met.

Tell it to Cameron-Barkley, or Oracle, or Visteon, or any of the other automotive supply chain management companies and spin offs used to dump 'deadweight' like pension obligations when the parent company folds em up and liquidates em back into capital and those now ex-employees who met the stipulations get told sorry, we're broke and there's no money to pay you.

I didn't see too many folk standing up for the sanctity of the contract then, did I now ?

Anyhow, they made that contract with the COMPANY, not the Govt - if the company cannot pay it, that is between them and the company - cause I DAMN sure didn't see the Gov steppin in when those damn poor souls in the automotive supply chain businesses had to whistle for THEIR bonus money.

Shit man, imma be perfectly blunt here, from a corporate perspective, it'd have been cheaper to hire assassins when it became obvious these goons had ruined the company they were supposed to keep afloat, and I'd likely not have said a word against it.

And yes, that's the companies fault for writing and agreeing to such a dimwitted contract in the first place - but dude, *I* did not fucking sign it, nor should I be in any way financially responsible for it.

And if I *MUST* be, well, professional assassins are the most cost effective alternative from that viewpoint, aren't they ?

No offense and all, but unless I signed on the dotted line, that buck doesn't stop here, it stops with the folk who did.

-Frem
It cannot be said enough, those who do not learn from history, are doomed to endlessly repeat it

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Tuesday, March 31, 2009 8:14 AM

Quote:

All I'm saying is that $99 million a year is a huge chunk of change that could have gone toward lowering the sticker price on the cars and stimulate the economy, along with building their revenue and avoiding the mess they're in now.

Right you are, and it's a valid point. Now I'd like to hear it applied in the same fashion to the execs who are still being paid millions. One guy - "fired" CEO Rick Wagoner - is walking away with a $23,000,000 severance package. How much could THAT money have helped the company right about now? Again, these executive pay packages were negotiated, and they're part of legal contracts, but I'm thinking if the UAW has to give up perks, the execs should give them up as well.

Mike

just lying smiling in the dark
shooting stars around your heart
dreams come bouncing in your head
pure and simple everytime
now you're crying in your sleep
i wish you'd never learnt to weep
don't sell the dreams you should be keeping
pure and simple everytime

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Tuesday, March 31, 2009 8:16 AM

RIPWASH

I agree completely. These bonus/severance packages are obscene. But at least those guys are "working" . . . more or less

No . . . but really. Out of line no matter how you look at it.

Zoe: "Get it running again."
Mal: "Yeah"
Zoe: "So not running now"
Mal: "Not so much"
- Out of Gas

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Tuesday, March 31, 2009 8:20 AM

Quote:

Pro-tip, if your Kia sportage heater core starts leaking - set the goddamn thing on fire and walk away, you'll thank me, I swear.

Don't do this. Instead, make sure the insurance is fully paid and up to date. THEN set it on fire, but only after reporting it stolen!

Mike

just lying smiling in the dark
shooting stars around your heart
dreams come bouncing in your head
pure and simple everytime
now you're crying in your sleep
i wish you'd never learnt to weep
don't sell the dreams you should be keeping
pure and simple everytime

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Tuesday, March 31, 2009 8:21 AM

Freedom is Important because People are Important

Hello,

Frem, please understand that I’m no happier with this business than you are. I didn’t sign any contracts with these companies either, and I certainly can’t recall where I authorized a massive export of funds to float companies that I no longer consider to be viable.

I’m not crying for rich folks. I’m crying for a precedent that I consider very bad. I suppose giving them money was the first bad precedent. Stealing it back is the second.

I try to live very much by the principle of not doing to anyone else anything I’d not want done to me. As for the “who was crying back when” argument... If I’d have known, I’d have cried. I try to cry out at all injustices, not just those against people I like.

--Anthony

"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner

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Tuesday, March 31, 2009 8:23 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Wulfenstar:
Man...I cannot wait for Tesla (or someone else) to finally make an electric car I can afford. Simplicity = reliability.

Then, I can install some solar panels, and charge my car for free.

Not to mention upgrading my engine (i.e. battery) every 2 to 3 years.... SWEET!

Except that so far, it's neither simple nor reliable. Look up the Top Gear (BBC) episode where they ran the Tesla roadster against the Lotus Elise (Lotus did most of the engineering and does a lot of the assembly of the Tesla's chassis). While the Tesla is inarguably fast - it beats the Elise around a twisty road course, and the Lotus is probably THE best-handling car you can legally drive on the street - it definitely wasn't "reliable" - it quit on them at least twice in the middle of testing.

Mike

just lying smiling in the dark
shooting stars around your heart
dreams come bouncing in your head
pure and simple everytime
now you're crying in your sleep
i wish you'd never learnt to weep
don't sell the dreams you should be keeping
pure and simple everytime

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Tuesday, March 31, 2009 8:34 AM

PIRATENEWS

John Lee, conspiracy therapist at Hollywood award-winner History Channel-mocked SNL-spoofed PirateNew.org wooHOO!!!!!!

Obama knows more about building cars and managing a business.

RU smarter than an dope dealing illegal alien tax-exempt "non-profit" foundation director?

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Tuesday, March 31, 2009 8:38 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by piratenews:
Obama knows more about building cars and managing a business.

RU smarter than an dope dealing illegal alien tax-exempt "non-profit" foundation director?

At this point, with losses far in excess of the net worth of the company's entire holdings...

Wouldn't GM qualify as a "non-profit" foundation?

Mike

just lying smiling in the dark
shooting stars around your heart
dreams come bouncing in your head
pure and simple everytime
now you're crying in your sleep
i wish you'd never learnt to weep
don't sell the dreams you should be keeping
pure and simple everytime

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Tuesday, March 31, 2009 8:41 AM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

AnthonyT

I don't approve of the AIG and corporate financial bailouts, since the meltdown could have been prevented at much smaller cost, and to better effect, by renegotiating predatory mortgages with the aid of the federal government.

I have no particular thoughts at the moment about these other bailouts. I did want to point out that federal bailouts of private entities and other levels of government go back to 1970.

http://www.propublica.org/special/government-bailouts

***************************************************************

Silence is consent.

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Tuesday, March 31, 2009 9:49 AM

RIVERDANCER

Quote:
Originally posted by Geezer:
The money GM got was a loan, and you can bet there were strings attached, the biggest string being that it should be repaid.

So... you mean... if they weren't making money... were, in fact, still going down the crapper... and hence not able to repay the loan or even make a start at repaying the loan... and wanting still more money... that attached string... might... give the loaning entity a little bit of ground for complaint? Is this what you might be saying? I am wide-eyed with shock and innocence at the very idea.

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Tuesday, March 31, 2009 11:59 AM

Quote:
I suppose giving them money was the first bad precedent. Stealing it back is the second.

Hell Anthony, I am right at the point where I almost wanna say just nationalise the bastards.

If we're gonna drop that much money on it, might as well fucking buy it outright and let us OWN it.

Then when we get crummy overpriced cars we can at least wrangle a tax deduction out of it since we're technically buying from a state-owned company, and once they're out of the picture and no longer using massive political largess to raise the barriers to entry like they did to Tucker back in 1948, given they'd be run with the usual government "efficiency" - the rise of actual competition is all but assured.

All that said, I was actually quite serious about my other suggestion too - were I a primary stockholder or board member, and found that the guy I paid an eight digit salary to run the company and keep it profitable just all but broke me, and did so in a way that he was gonna walk away with more money than his actions left me, I most certainly *WOULD* be engaging some less than savory professional services regarding that.

It is a bit ironic though, that the GM shareholders are getting a taste of what every homeowner nationwide is currently feeling, and you don't see THEM gettin a bailout, only the folks who screwed em.

I ain't too fond of lynch mobs, or rioting mobs of any kind cause they tend to be stupid and burn down the grocery store instead of city hall (and yanno, I've NEVER understood the impetuos behind that?) and target all the wrong people...

But specifically engaging retributive strikes against the individuals most responsible when they hide behind laws they more or less bought to protect themselves while thumbing their nose at us ?

Oh hell yes.

Who was it that said cannon are the final argument of kings ?
Well, I think we need to apply a certain level of that to the final argument of the people being someone having "an accident".

It would most certainly reduce much of the more overt corruption in our system.

-Frem

It cannot be said enough, those who do not learn from history, are doomed to endlessly repeat it

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Tuesday, March 31, 2009 1:00 PM

If cannon are the final argument of kings, I'd have to say the guillotine is the final argument of the people.

I know Frem knows this already.

Sometimes justice announces its arrival with a hearty Kah-THUNK!

I think that's how he put it.

Or, put another way...

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Tuesday, March 31, 2009 2:58 PM

How's this for a bailout agreement.

You keep the money.

We keep your head.

Sounds fair to me!

-Frem

It cannot be said enough, those who do not learn from history, are doomed to endlessly repeat it

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Wednesday, April 1, 2009 1:57 AM

Keep the Shiny side up

Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko:
Yes, the kill-'em-all mentality should ONLY be applied to Muslims...

[/snark]

I see you're letting your preconceptions and stereotypes outrun reality again.

"Keep the Shiny side up"

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Wednesday, April 1, 2009 3:51 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Geezer:

I see you're letting your preconceptions and stereotypes outrun reality again.

Right back atchya, sporto!

Or did you NOT write this in the opening of this thread?

Quote:
I find the concept that the PRESIDENT can fire an employee of a private business, coupled with the Administration's demonstrated will to punish anyone they think is making too much money, troubling.

So the President is going around "firing" (your word, not mine) people from their jobs for "making too much money"?

Or were you letting your preconceptions and stereotypes outrun reality yet again?

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Wednesday, April 1, 2009 4:43 AM

Freedom is Important because People are Important

Quote:
Originally posted by Fremdfirma:
How's this for a bailout agreement.

You keep the money.

We keep your head.

Sounds fair to me!

-Frem

It cannot be said enough, those who do not learn from history, are doomed to endlessly repeat it

Hello,

I hate being put in the position of the Scarlet Pimpernel. But once the blade starts falling, it is generally indiscriminate.

--Anthony

"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner

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Wednesday, April 1, 2009 5:05 AM

PIZMOBEACH

... fully loaded, safety off...

Quote:
Originally posted by Geezer:

Not that Mr. Waggoner has been doing a stellar job, but I find the concept that the PRESIDENT can fire an employee of a private business, coupled with the Administration's demonstrated will to punish anyone they think is making too much money, troubling. It seems a violation of the basic American principle that you should be able to work where you can and earn what you can. At this point no one will mind, because it's just "rich" folk having their rights tampered with...

"the Administration's demonstrated will to punish anyone they think is making too much money..."

For one, it's not "anyone THEY think is making too much money." I think this is more the admin responding to what the American people have been crying out for. The admin's knowledge on the bonuses contradicts that they have it in for the wealthy, rather they are trying to show their understanding of what Joe public is feeling. And that's just good PR.

I find it ironical that Joe Public is outraged since it's their gluttonous behavior that is responsible for some of these excesses. They wish they were getting 23 million dollar pink slips.

"It seems a violation of the basic American principle that you should be able to work where you can and earn what you can."

That's a fundamental tenant of the American dream innit? BUT, it's also a fundamental human behavior that if you make that kinda dough (and it gets out or you flaunt it) people are going to want to see you fail big time.

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Wednesday, April 1, 2009 5:24 AM

Freedom is Important because People are Important

Hello,

Nobody cries for the witches during a witch hunt, because nobody likes a warty witch. But when someone points at YOU and calls you witch, you might feel differently.

There's more to bonuses and 'fat cat' luxurious business retreats than meets the eye sometimes.

Where I work, the most efficient workers are nominated to attend a yearly retreat in some exotic locale, like a trip to Vegas or a nice Cruise ship to nowhere, or Hawaii.

It's important to recognize that even in a business that is losing money, there are individuals who do their jobs VERY well, and if you don't reward such individuals via incentives, they tend to slow down or disappear.

This is possibly doubly important in a poor economy, because you may not be able to promote a good employee or give substantial raises, but the cost of a business retreat is comparatively small in the long run.

Unfortunately, due to public disapproval, there are amazing employees where I work who are getting zilch for their efforts. People who do the work of 2 or 3 average employees are being thanked with a big "Sorry, it's bad PR to send people on 'fat cat' retreats in this environment. Please keep being a stellar employee anyway, even with no tangible reward."

I've yet to see a witch hunt where only the witches burn. But by all means, enjoy the bonfire.

--Anthony

"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner

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Wednesday, April 1, 2009 6:32 AM

Quote:
But once the blade starts falling, it is generally indiscriminate.

This is very true Anthony, as I am all too painfully aware, but that blade has ALREADY been deliberately aimed at, and hit me, via a tax jump on a product I want totalling not only over 100% in increase, but that increase itself being damn near 150% of the cost of the PRODUCT.

And then I get to watch shit like this after having been deliberately and maliciously singled out ?

Which leads into your next post...

Quote:
Nobody cries for the witches during a witch hunt, because nobody likes a warty witch. But when someone points at YOU and calls you witch, you might feel differently.

When you've been on the receiving end of that for various reasons as long as I have, you just stop caring, and if the mob wants to torch someone else, well, about the only thing YOU feel is relief.

Remember, they fired a warning shot into MY little boat first, so if the fuckin pirahna pack wants to sate their hunger on a fatter, juicier target instead of chewin on me and mine for once, AND a target that's in part responsible for our current economic disaster, whereas ME and my personal life are NOT...

How the bloody hell does anyone expect me to have a goddamn iota of sympathy for them, I ask you ?

Quote:
I've yet to see a witch hunt where only the witches burn. But by all means, enjoy the bonfire.

No shit, but I happen to be a little too damn busy nursing my own scorch marks to give a shit about someone else who has more reason to catch as few themselves.

If they really wanted to burn the responsible parties they'd torch themselves, wouldn't they ?

-Frem

It cannot be said enough, those who do not learn from history, are doomed to endlessly repeat it

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Wednesday, April 1, 2009 7:01 AM

Freedom is Important because People are Important

Hello,

Frem, I can’t remember ever seeing you contradict yourself. You are about the least hypocritical person I’ve had the pleasure of dealing with on these forums, right up there with the much maligned Rue (who seems to avoid self-contradiction via exhaustive research on the subject matter.)

But I will admit it did bother me to see you complain about the tobacco tax on the other thread, lamenting that no one seemed to care because it didn’t affect them.

And then to see you in another thread advocating doing the same to someone else because it had been done to you.

Now, I’d say the very finest idea you’ve had so far is to purchase patents from ailing businesses and place them in the public domain. I think the world would be a better place if there was no monopoly on the Shipstone.

--Anthony

"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner

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Wednesday, April 1, 2009 10:57 AM