Rules of attraction by chrisisall

Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko:
At what point did they look at a guy and a girl standing next to each other and say, "I want THAT one!"?

At 11 when my hormones kicked in.

The laughing Chrisisall

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Thursday, April 23, 2009 4:59 AM

There's some psychological perspective that human beings demonstrate something like five different genders, according to a combination of actual physical characteristics and gender role behaviour.

Expanding on what Agent Rouka said, asking "why are women attracted to men" may also have some insight on why men might be attracted to men. Personally, I think defining heterosexual attraction from a embryological development perspective suggests a mechanism for at least homosexuality.

I have no idea how to explain bisexuality or gender neutrality from a biological standpoint, though. I'm sure the basis is there, but what it might be is obscure.

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Thursday, April 23, 2009 5:15 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by AgentRouka:

I doubt it's the difference exactly that turns you on, it's the shapes, smells, sounds, textures and behaviors that just so happen to be entirely different from you. Otherwise you would be attracted to anything that is different from you, but you're not.

That's an interesting point. Although I have gravitated towards non-white women predominately (I'm white myself), but yeah, I see what you're saying; I'm not attracted to dudes that are very different in appearance to me...

Quote:
You're attracted to adult female human beings. (I guess!)

Uhhh, yes.

Quote:
A lesbian would be attracted to to woman for similar reasons, simply because of shape, smell, sound, texture and behavior. Because to them and their brain and hormones, these particular things trigger the reaction of "Awesome!"

Funny story, I was with my girlfriend at her theatre class in college, and she was bending over to pick up a script as her lesbian friend walked over to me and said "What an ass...", and I looked at her, smiled & said, "Yeah..."

Quote:

Same thing with gay men. They're attracted to certain things about men not because of one particular condition (like difference) but because of a combination of triggers that they are wired to adore.

Maybe that helps?

Somewhat, yeah. Thanks.

The laughing Chrisisall

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Thursday, April 23, 2009 5:19 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Bytemite:
There's some psychological perspective that human beings demonstrate something like five different genders,

Let's keep the discussion on THIS planet, okay B?

The laughing Chrisisall

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Thursday, April 23, 2009 5:24 AM

...I'm on this planet...

Lesbian, Bisexual, Gay, and Transgendered. LBGT. Add heterosexuals and there you go, 5.

Or is that six, splitting heterosexual into straight male and straight female? Or is bisexuality more like a combination of two existing gender roles than a new one?

And hell, those don't even describe ME.

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Thursday, April 23, 2009 5:25 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Bytemite:
...I'm on this planet...

Sorry, it was an easy joke.

The laughing Chrisisall

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Thursday, April 23, 2009 5:30 AM

THATWEIRDGIRL

It's not a gender thing for me but a human thing. In general I find the human body to be a wondrous and exquisite creation. Soft skin, subtle smells, pink undertones, silky hair, etc. The attraction comes in the individual person. Do they have engaging eyes? Is their smile infectious? When they tell a joke or story do I just exist in the moment? Is their presence enough to make me dumb with awe? Do I find myself wanting to be around them for no other reason than because?

In celebrity terms: Scarlett Johannson has a beautiful female form but I find her utterly bland. Her eyes don't excite me. Her smile does not draw me. Gina Torres also has an incredible female form. Her eyes can heat up the room. Her smile makes me believe there is true beauty in the world. That's me. That's not not you.

*I use females in my example in hopes of relating better to the male perspective.

---
Sometimes I lie awake at night, and I ask, "Where have I gone wrong?" Then a voice says to me, "This is going to take more than one night."
-- Charlie Brown
www.thatcostumegirl.com
www.thatweirdgirl.com

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Thursday, April 23, 2009 5:36 AM

NEWOLDBROWNCOAT

John Lennon sang it best:

"whatever gets you thru the night, is all right, it's all right,/
whatever gets you thru yer life, is all right, is all right."

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Thursday, April 23, 2009 5:39 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by thatweirdgirl:

*I use females in my example in hopes of relating better to the male perspective.

I could stand to hear some more...

Seriously, the difference to me is, I see Bruce Lee's butt and I think, whoah, I wanna have a butt like that; I see Salma Hayek's butt, and I think, whoah, I wanna TOUCH that butt. In both instances there is solid appreciation, but what separates the two reactions? Simple hormones? Societal norms?

The laughing Chrisisall

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Thursday, April 23, 2009 5:45 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Bytemite:

Lesbian, Gay,

Aren't they the same thing, just gender specified for no apparent reason?

The laughing Chrisisall

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Thursday, April 23, 2009 5:46 AM

It's okay, I'm not mad. The other orientations get a lot more attention, and have a lot more people. I should be used to it by now. And at least people don't think I'm evil, grotesque, or want to kill me. That'd be awful to have to experience that.

Anyway, that's probably well out of range of the scope of your thread. How about the nature versus nurture debate? That's an important factor in this topic.

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Thursday, April 23, 2009 5:47 AM

THATWEIRDGIRL

Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
Seriously, the difference to me is, I see Bruce Lee's butt and I think, whoah, I wanna have a butt like that; I see Salma Hayek's butt, and I think, whoah, I wanna TOUCH that butt. In both instances there is solid appreciation, but what separates the two reactions? Simple hormones? Societal norms

That's a great way to think of it. I'd grab either! Though he is a little too firm and perfect for my taste. But I'd grab it just the same.

***edited to add: If he were alive. I'm not grabbing a zombie butt no matter who it is.

---
Sometimes I lie awake at night, and I ask, "Where have I gone wrong?" Then a voice says to me, "This is going to take more than one night."
-- Charlie Brown
www.thatcostumegirl.com
www.thatweirdgirl.com

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Thursday, April 23, 2009 5:50 AM

I think they're specified by physical characteristics because lesbianism is something different in a behavioural sense from gay.

Two gay guys don't ACT like two lesbians, both in the sense of the relationship and how they interface with the outside world.

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Thursday, April 23, 2009 6:12 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Bytemite:

Two gay guys don't ACT like two lesbians, both in the sense of the relationship and how they interface with the outside world.

Thanks, I suspected it was something like that, but you put words to it.

The laughing Chrisisall

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Thursday, April 23, 2009 6:13 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by thatweirdgirl:

***edited to add: If he were alive. I'm not grabbing a zombie butt no matter who it is.

I hear once you go zombie, ya never go back!

The laughing Chrisisall

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Thursday, April 23, 2009 6:33 AM

Yeah, but they only want you for your mind.

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Thursday, April 23, 2009 6:51 AM

You were busy trying to get yourself lit on fire. It happens.

Quote:
Originally posted by Bytemite:
...I'm on this planet...

Lesbian, Bisexual, Gay, and Transgendered. LBGT. Add heterosexuals and there you go, 5.

Or is that six, splitting heterosexual into straight male and straight female? Or is bisexuality more like a combination of two existing gender roles than a new one?

Wait, so you're saying that sexual orientation influences or is tied to gender roles, and that therefore each orientation category could be a different gender, as well? Because that doesn't make any sense to me.

Also, you missed a couple - asexual and intersex. Would that make 7 gender categories, then, in your view?

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Thursday, April 23, 2009 7:22 AM

Yeah, I guess it would be. I think most of the people who decided on the 5-gender categories haven't ever heard of... Can I say nonsexual? I hate the term asexual for personal reasons.

I forgot about intersex, for some reason I kind of lumped them under bisexual and transgendered... But it is different.

Obviously there's nuances in each gender role, like whether a person acts more expressive ("feminine" though associating expressiveness with femininity is misleading) or instrumental ("masculine," again misleading). And some people are more demure at one time, and more forward at others, depending on the social situation and how they might be expected to act: all their different reactions could fit into VARIOUS gender roles.

But if you're going for the really broad stroke, the category system above just uses physical form and what they're attracted to so as to define, well, what the person in question is.

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Thursday, April 23, 2009 7:24 AM

SERGEANTX

I think sexual attraction is a good deal more flexible than most people recognize. I'm sure certain tendencies are 'hardcoded', but so much of sexuality has to do with emotional associations. They're very deep emotional associations to be sure, but not entirely fixed. My own preferences have changed considerably over the years and I suspect I could enjoy sex with most any physical "configuration" if the emotional conditions were right.

SergeantX

"Dream a little dream or you can live a little dream. I'd rather live it, cause dreamers always chase but never get it." Aesop Rock

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Thursday, April 23, 2009 7:48 AM

THATWEIRDGIRL

I know I could.

---
Sometimes I lie awake at night, and I ask, "Where have I gone wrong?" Then a voice says to me, "This is going to take more than one night."
-- Charlie Brown
www.thatcostumegirl.com
www.thatweirdgirl.com

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Thursday, April 23, 2009 8:11 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by yinyang:

Also, you missed a couple - asexual and intersex. Would that make 7 gender categories, then, in your view?

I think of it as one category only: Who You Are Or Aren't Doing At The Moment.

The laughing Chrisisall

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Thursday, April 23, 2009 8:12 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by thatweirdgirl:
I know I could.

I'll be in my bunk.

The laughing Chrisisall

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Thursday, April 23, 2009 8:19 AM

PIZMOBEACH

... fully loaded, safety off...

Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
Quote:
Originally posted by thatweirdgirl:
I know I could.

I'll be in my bunk.

... with Sargeant X...

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Thursday, April 23, 2009 8:21 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by pizmobeach:

... with Sargeant X...

I'm not his type.

The laughing Chrisisall

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Thursday, April 23, 2009 8:56 AM

You were busy trying to get yourself lit on fire. It happens.

Quote:
Originally posted by Bytemite:
Yeah, I guess it would be. I think most of the people who decided on the 5-gender categories haven't ever heard of... Can I say nonsexual? I hate the term asexual for personal reasons.

I think they also forgot about transgendered people's orientations, because they treat transgendered as a category distinct from the rest, but there are trans lesbians, gay men, bisexuals, nonsexuals, pansexuals, whatever. In any event, a system that equates sexual orientation with gender roles, or posits 5 genders seems unnecessarily complicated and silly to me.

Anyway, back to the main topic - I'm with SergeantX; I think sexual orientation is pretty fluid. Of course, that could just be me generalizing my own inclinations onto others.

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Thursday, April 23, 2009 9:03 AM

More complicated, maybe.

More honest, also maybe.

Gender has never meant JUST whether someone has girl parts or boy parts. There's a lot wrapped up in a gender and what it means, what society expects, and what they specifically are.

Sure, these are only labels. But imagine if we only had the he/she pronouns for people to choose from and describe themselves. That might work for the two-spirits in their culture, but it'd make things a bit more tough in mainstream American to figure out who's who. Being able to categorize orientation and gender role is important and necessary, especially how some of these groups get hated on so much. Who do you identify with, if you don't know who you are? Who'll help you if the mobs really make it hurt?

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Thursday, April 23, 2009 9:11 AM

You were busy trying to get yourself lit on fire. It happens.

Well, I'm not denying that. But, if we're going to get complicated, I think it's more useful to talk about gender performance, rather than all these different distinct categories that are tied to sexual orientation.

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Thursday, April 23, 2009 9:17 AM

Hmm? Gender Performance? Not familiar with that.

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Thursday, April 23, 2009 9:35 AM

You were busy trying to get yourself lit on fire. It happens.

It's a concept set forward by Judith Butler, I believe, although I haven't read any of her works yet so this is what I've gleaned from others. I understand gender performance to be about how the ways in which we act, dress, talk, etc. that transmit femininity (traditional or otherwise), masculinity (again, traditional or otherwise), androgyny, etc. If I wear a dress one day and jeans and a baggy t-shirt the next, those are two different performances of my gender.

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Thursday, April 23, 2009 9:38 AM

...Isn't that kind of what I was saying about nuances?

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Thursday, April 23, 2009 9:40 AM

You were busy trying to get yourself lit on fire. It happens.

Yeah, I guess. But I was arguing against the idea of having lesbian, gay, bisexual, transgendered, hetero, etc. be their own gender categories. Sorry for the confusion.

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Thursday, April 23, 2009 9:55 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by yinyang:
I think it's more useful to talk about gender performance

In Junior High School I was rather slender, in some peeps eyes almost girlishly so, and spoke quietly. One bully picked on me, calling me faggot & such, and attacked me on the street when we got off the bus, so I beat him kinda senseless (I had discovered Bruce Lee by then)- was I giving a poor gender performance?

The laughing Chrisisall

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Thursday, April 23, 2009 9:57 AM

America loves a winner!

Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:

I even kissed one of my male friends on the mouth at a party once

Saw that comin'.

NOTIFY: N | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Thursday, April 23, 2009 9:59 AM

But aren't they? It's not JUST whether someone is acting "feminine" or "masculine" at a certain point in time, or what their chromosomes or outward appearance says they are, it's not JUST whether they like males or females or both or intersex folks or none.

It's all of those things, and all of those things make combinations that are different. I mean, you stopped me at seven, and personally, I agree that any more could easily get out of hand. But as it works IRL, people need the distinctions.

When a lesbian goes out looking for a date, it matters to her whether her date is (I'm sorry if these terms are offensive, they're what's on wikipedia) butch or femme. And it's something that stays consistent, that says something about her role in a potential relationship. That means to me that's part of her gender role.

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Thursday, April 23, 2009 10:01 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:

Saw that comin'.

LOL, was wondern' which one of you guys would be first to make use of that.

The secure in hisself Chrisisall

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Thursday, April 23, 2009 10:03 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:
Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:

I even kissed one of my male friends on the mouth at a party once

Saw that comin'.

So? I kissed one of my girl friends on the mouth once too, even slipped her tongue, just to weird her out. And laughed maniacally about it afterward, because her stunned reaction was priceless.

It doesn't mean anything.

It's not like Bugs Bunny is gay just because he likes to mess with Elmer Fudd or Yosemite Sam's heads.

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Thursday, April 23, 2009 10:04 AM

America loves a winner!

Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:

Saw that comin'.

LOL, was wondern' which one of you guys would be first to make use of that.
l

Hey, it was a hangin' curve, just sittin' right there.

NOTIFY: N | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Thursday, April 23, 2009 10:08 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Bytemite:

It's not like Bugs Bunny is gay just because he likes to mess with Elmer Fudd or Yosemite Sam's heads.

Bugs was secure in his sexuality.

The laughing Chrisisall

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Thursday, April 23, 2009 10:09 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Bytemite:

I kissed one of my girl friends on the mouth once too, even slipped her tongue

Bunk-time, once more...

The laughing Chrisisall

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Thursday, April 23, 2009 10:11 AM

You were busy trying to get yourself lit on fire. It happens.

Quote:
Originally posted by Bytemite:
But aren't they? It's not JUST whether someone is acting "feminine" or "masculine" at a certain point in time, or what their chromosomes or outward appearance says they are, it's not JUST whether they like males or females or both or intersex folks or none.

It's all of those things, and all of those things make combinations that are different. I mean, you stopped me at seven, and personally, I agree that any more could easily get out of hand. But as it works IRL, people need the distinctions.

When a lesbian goes out looking for a date, it matters to her whether her date is (I'm sorry if these terms are offensive, they're what's on wikipedia) butch or femme. And it's something that stays consistent, that says something about her role in a potential relationship. That means to me that's part of her gender role.

But does her lesbianism define her gender role? That's my problem. Partly it's that the terms are imprecise in my mind - lesbian, gay, bisexual, nonsexual, heterosexual, refer to sexual orientation. And, partly it's just that, again, I don't think breaking gender up into all these distinct, discrete categories is useful. Because even within them there's so much variation - lipstick lesbians vs. butch lesbians, macho gays vs. "feminine" gays (not a term I'd use normally, but I don't know of another term). Basically, sexual orientation =! gender.

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Thursday, April 23, 2009 10:19 AM

America loves a winner!

Byte,

I was thinking just recently of how might we react to alien life, if we ever made contact ( I'm with the SETI crowd, that life is out there, but yet to be discovered )

Clearly, if we encounter alien life, by what ever means, it'll be of an intelligent variety. ( Save any solid evidence of microbes found on Mars )

How would we address our new found celestial neighbors ? Referring to them as 'it' would seem rude and impersonal. Our alien friends would be every bit as intelligent as ourselves, and likely 1000's of years more advanced ( civilized ? ). But what of their gender ? Would they have any ? 2? Might there be 3 genders ?

Stuff one thinks about after back to back nights of minimal sleep.

NOTIFY: N | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Thursday, April 23, 2009 10:22 AM

America loves a winner!

Quote:
Originally posted by Bytemite:

So? I kissed one of my girl friends on the mouth once too, even slipped her tongue.

Did ya right a song about it ? Oh, that's been done already.

Curious ^ 5 !

NOTIFY: N | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Thursday, April 23, 2009 10:39 AM

The reason I'm including the sexual orientation is because of the developmental mechanism that sexual orientation tied to gender combinations suggests.

See, in the simplest world, evolutionary sense, you have four genders. You have the straight males and females that propagate the species. You have the people born not male or female and/or both because of embryo development. And you have the people who take on the altruistic baby sitter role and don't have children of their own.

Add 10,000 years of human development, and some of those clearly defined wires start to get crossed. You get some males that have attraction settings like a straight female, and females with the straight male setting. You get single gender people who have the attraction settings of someone with two genders (maybe?). And on top of all that, you drop a big heaping of personality and personal reaction to social norms.

All of it originally genetically coded for in the species we differentiated from (not to mention the influences of the developmental hormone bath embryos are submerged in), but time gave it the opportunity to manifest.

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Thursday, April 23, 2009 10:41 AM

AURaptor: I actually thought a little bit about that too. :)

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Thursday, April 23, 2009 10:49 AM

B, you make it sound so complicated.
How about: "That person's HOT, lemme see if I can get some."
Then: "That 'some' was nice, and this person's cool, lemme see if we can make it last."
?

The laughing Chrisisall

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Thursday, April 23, 2009 10:59 AM

Uhh... Sure, whatever works for you.

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Thursday, April 23, 2009 11:03 AM