Wall Street: who the frak cares? by SignyM

I could fill a computer screen with a post that would demonstrate how an "imploded" market would ruin us all, invested or not.

Take my word that the market is a GOOD thing. Do not focus upon the momentary movements, but rather the nature of the environment itself.

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Thursday, April 30, 2009 10:04 AM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Would be interested. When you have the time. Please, and THANKS!

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We should have strapped him into a glider, filled it nose heavy w/ explosives, and dropped his Allah lovin' ass into a large, empty field. After which, release wild boars into the area so they could make good use of his remains. Now THAT's justice.- rappy

Yeah, that's what Sheikh Issa said. Seems you both have a lot in common.- signy

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Thursday, April 30, 2009 10:49 AM

KIRKULES

The stock market is the most efficient mechanism for pricing assets ever devised by mankind. No matter whether it's tangible assets or intellectual property the only way to find the fair value is to put it up for bid in a market place.

You tend to focus on the investment/speculation side of the market which can cause volatility and lead to excesses. I prefer to focus on the positive aspects of the market as a mechanism for companies to raise capital. There is no better method to get people to invest in good ideas than the stock market. Part of what makes people willing to invest is the liquidity that speculation provides. Speculators, Shorting stock, buying Long, or using Options make it possible for an investor to quickly get in and out of the market. Just try and dump a pile of gold in a falling gold market and you will see what I mean. By the time you find a buyer the price will be far below the point you desided to sell. Part of what makes people willing to invest is the assurance that the can take their gains or losses on demand.

The most important thing the stock market does in my opinion is allow the fast movement of capital into small companies with good ideas. This allows them to take advantage of the "Economics of Scale" and quickly spread new products World wide. The technological revolution we've seen over the last 30 Years would not have been possible without the Stock Market.

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Thursday, April 30, 2009 12:35 PM

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)

Quote:
The technological revolution we've seen over the last 30 Years would not have been possible without the Stock Market.

Of course, it could also be said that the economic collapse of the last 30 months would not have been possible without the stock market either... So it's not ALL good.

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Friday, May 1, 2009 1:46 AM

PIZMOBEACH

... fully loaded, safety off...

Quote:
Originally posted by bluesuncompanyman:
I could fill a computer screen with a post that would demonstrate how an "imploded" market would ruin us all, invested or not.

That is the whole fraking problem.

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Friday, May 1, 2009 2:01 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!

Who the frak cares ?

I care. Many folks with retirement investments care. That group includes teachers, union members, fire and police employees, and a long list of others, not just fat cat salaried employees, riding in limousines and having 1 or more vacation homes.

Is this thread suppose to be a joke?

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Friday, May 1, 2009 4:47 AM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

'Course not a joke.

But, since you mention retirement... I've lived long enough to remember several stock market explosions and implosions. It goes up 50%.... it goes down 50%... And that's why I don't have my retirement money in the stock market to the extent I can avoid it. IMHO nobody should. Furthermore... common wisdom says that if you're within 5-7 years of retirement you SHOULDN'T be in the stock market, because if it tanks... like it just did... you won't have time to make it up. The stock market is too unstable... you can't count on it being there when you need it.

I've done much better moving my investments between categories: bonds to real estate to currency and gold etc. And at least I don't have any illusions that I'm doing anything MORE than gambling! It's speculation- just like the stock market- and I KNOW its speculation. But if you read all of the "investment" papers the only thing you hear about is equities. That's why I'm glad the stock market tanked. Peeps need to be slapped upside the head with reality from time to time to break thru the propaganda that the stock market is somehow different. It ain't.

AFA the stock market being an efficient way to raise money... that doesn't make sense. BEFORE companies come out with IPOs they've percolated for years.... usually on venture capital or as limited partnerships. Usually what happens with IPOs is that the stock gets inflated waaaaay beyond any connection with reality, and then crashes to reality. I DO have to say that Wall Sreet- like any other form of specualtion- is very good about raising funny money. Which is why that money disappears so quickly too. In the meantime, the company's capital is hostage to all kinds of outside forces: interest rates, bubbles in other investments, currency fluctuations etc. A lot of private companies do very well... they don't need the stock market. I don't think anybody does.

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We should have strapped him into a glider, filled it nose heavy w/ explosives, and dropped his Allah lovin' ass into a large, empty field. After which, release wild boars into the area so they could make good use of his remains. Now THAT's justice.- rappy

Yeah, that's what Sheikh Issa said. Seems you both have a lot in common.- signy

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Friday, May 1, 2009 5:40 AM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

BSCM. et al.. would appreciate your insight when you have the time.

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We should have strapped him into a glider, filled it nose heavy w/ explosives, and dropped his Allah lovin' ass into a large, empty field. After which, release wild boars into the area so they could make good use of his remains. Now THAT's justice.- rappy

Yeah, that's what Sheikh Issa said. Seems you both have a lot in common.- signy

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Friday, May 1, 2009 6:33 AM

I'm following threads today but not posting due to it being a Friday and I'm conducting business. If the subject was Astronomy I could dump a wagonload of knowledge into the thread while still working. Free Market econ and Stock Market analysis is a little more cerebral and I'd have to approach it more like a college paper...which takes time. Time I just don't have each moment my phone rings.

I'll try to place some thoughts on screen over the weekend.

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Friday, May 1, 2009 7:13 AM

SERGEANTX

Quote:
Originally posted by Kirkules:
The stock market is the most efficient mechanism for pricing assets ever devised by mankind. No matter whether it's tangible assets or intellectual property the only way to find the fair value is to put it up for bid in a market place.

You tend to focus on the investment/speculation side of the market which can cause volatility and lead to excesses. I prefer to focus on the positive aspects of the market as a mechanism for companies to raise capital. There is no better method to get people to invest in good ideas than the stock market. Part of what makes people willing to invest is the liquidity that speculation provides. Speculators, Shorting stock, buying Long, or using Options make it possible for an investor to quickly get in and out of the market. Just try and dump a pile of gold in a falling gold market and you will see what I mean. By the time you find a buyer the price will be far below the point you desided to sell. Part of what makes people willing to invest is the assurance that the can take their gains or losses on demand.

The most important thing the stock market does in my opinion is allow the fast movement of capital into small companies with good ideas. This allows them to take advantage of the "Economics of Scale" and quickly spread new products World wide. The technological revolution we've seen over the last 30 Years would not have been possible without the Stock Market.

Excellent post. But while I totally agree, I'm also happy to see the market tanking. Or, well, maybe not "happy", but I think it needs to happen and will be good for us in the long run.

The thing is, as you point out, the market performs very important functions for us economically. So, to my way of thinking, only smart, well-qualified people should be involved. The line of reasoning telling us that, since the market is a good thing, everyone should be involved is idiotic. One of the first things you learn about the lead up to the stock market crash of '29 is that too many people were playing. The apocryphal story of cab drivers leveraged up to their eyeballs in speculation isn't that far removed from where we went in the last twenty years or so.

Speculation is not the same thing as gambling. The key to speculating successfully is having a good understanding of how the economy works, good judgment, and good information about the target of your speculation. It's the process of gathering that information and applying that judgment that makes the market the valuable tool that it is. When it works right, society gets what it wants and needs in very efficient fashion. When it doesn't, things go haywire.

We don't want everyone playing the market. We want people who do it poorly to lose. If you see the market as a blind gamble, then you're not really fulfilling the service to society that is the point of the market in the first place. Since most people don't even realize that it is a service, they shouldn't be involved. If they are, they ought to lose their asses. That's why I see it as dangerous when try to artificially pump up the market to make sure people don't lose.

SergeantX

"Dream a little dream or you can live a little dream. I'd rather live it, cause dreamers always chase but never get it." Aesop Rock

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Friday, May 1, 2009 7:39 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Kirkules:
The stock market is the most efficient mechanism for pricing assets ever devised by mankind. No matter whether it's tangible assets or intellectual property the only way to find the fair value is to put it up for bid in a market place.

I focus on the positive aspects of the market as a mechanism for companies to raise capital.

Part of what makes people willing to invest is the liquidity that speculation provides.

Indeed an excellent post, but I don't think Signym will quite understand it.

One must not confuse market "Investing" with market "Trading". When you see Jim Cramer hopping around throwing bulls and bears at his camera and smashing things (Great inclusion in the movie Ironman btw..freaking brilliant placement that was) he's demonstrating the extreme of the "Trader". I've read his book "Confessions of a Street Addict" and in it he confesses that the world of trading can be a slimy place. Hedge Funds line up to kill other hedge funds on a regular basis. Full service brokers will place orders from large clients then run outside and blab the trades into pay phones (office lines are monitored. In the 80's it was pay phones..today they just do it in restrooms with cells) to certain fund managers that bribe them who will then make choices to push markets up and down for selfish reasons....all at the gain/loss of small time players like the folks on main street.

But this only matters if you are a TRADER.

I don't give a crud what the Dow does on a daily basis. It only matters if you are TRADING THE DOW. Why would anyone do such a thing?

The market is one of the coolest, most brilliant things I've had the fortune to sit and think about. Since 1792 when the 1st traders organized under the buttonwood tree at 68 Wall Street, our nation has had the blessing of possessing the smartest vehicle to promote liquidity and access capital. This has generated the foundation upon which america's prosperity grew throughout the 20th century. It's why america remains the focus of the world's attention. While our markets remain free, we will always have "HOPE" for prosperity.

Signym: Go to your local bookstore tonight and buy a copy of Atlas Shrugged.

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Friday, May 1, 2009 7:50 AM

Quote:

Speculation is not the same thing as gambling. The key to speculating successfully is having a good understanding of how the economy works, good judgment, and good information about the target of your speculation.

No offense, Sarge, and not to be a dick, but isn't that pretty much what every gambler says about their "system"?

And how is it that huge Wall Street investment firms, who are supposed to have a better understanding of these things than ANYBODY, still managed to so utterly and completely tank?

Because sometimes, as a gambler, even the best "system" falls victim to the casino's pot odds...

Mike

Build a man a fire and he'll be warm for a day...
Set a man on fire and he'll be warm for the rest of his life.

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Friday, May 1, 2009 8:10 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko:
Isn't that pretty much what every gambler says about their "system"?

No.

Because gambling, by nature, has no real "known" information. 1 trial of spinning a roulette wheel is not dependent upon any previous trials. There are only 2 games in a modern casino that bridge the gap away from a true gamble: Poker because it isn't about cards, but people and Sports Betting, which is about accessing known information. Blackjack used to be accessable through card counting but it is not possible anymore due to modern countermeasures.

The Market is a world wherin thousands of entities reside. With enough analysis of individual fundementals of companies, a speculator can make an informed choice. If you make 10 educated picks, 7 should be good ones. Over time this is how speculators make money. I myself am not a spec player but a real investor. When I buy I hold and take dividends. And let me tell you just how awsome dividends are!...Gotta love that mailbox money!

Dividends are just like welfare..you sit at home, do nothing, and get paid. But the source of that payment isn't a woefully indebted government that can't even afford your payment, but rather a profitable private enterprise that employs people and promotes prosperity.

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Friday, May 1, 2009 9:50 AM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Quote:
Signym: Go to your local bookstore tonight and buy a copy of Atlas Shrugged.

I read that about 40 years ago. I thought it was a big piece of internally inconsistent crap, with more than a dash of fascism thrown in. But if you really want to learn about economic philosophies, read The Wordly Philosophers by Robert Heilbroner.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Worldly_Philosophers

TABLE OF CONTENTS
Introduction
The Economic Revolution
The Wonderful World of Adam Smith
The Gloomy Presentiments of Parson Malthus and David Ricardo
The Dreams of the Utopian Socialists
The Inexorable System of Karl Marx
The Victorian World and the Underworld of Economics
The Savage Society of Thorstein Veblen
The Heresies of John Maynard Keynes
The Contradictions of Joseph Schumpeter
The End of the Worldly Philosophy?

To balance that out, try Man Against Myth by Barrows Dunham.

Quote:
Dividends are just like welfare..you sit at home, do nothing, and get paid. But the source of that payment isn't a woefully indebted government that can't even afford your payment, but rather a profitable private enterprise that employs people and promotes unemployment.

Getting back to speculation for a monment: If you're going to speculate (which I do) you'd best do it over a broad range of categories. And the most successful investors or speculators tend to take the macroeconomic view.

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We should have strapped him into a glider, filled it nose heavy w/ explosives, and dropped his Allah lovin' ass into a large, empty field. After which, release wild boars into the area so they could make good use of his remains. Now THAT's justice.- rappy

Yeah, that's what Sheikh Issa said. Seems you both have a lot in common.- signy

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Friday, May 1, 2009 10:51 AM

Signy, for as mature as you seem to be, it astonishes me you've been dubbed the "queen of generalizations". It's certainly not the thread's topic, but it came to my mind when you wrote that you read Atlas Shrugged "over 40 years ago". I have a 19 year old brother-in-law who speaks in broad generalizations about his politics...and I smile to him while chalking his opinions up to his inexperience and thinking whistfully about the days in college when I did the same things myself.

As to changing my words to read "Profitable private enterprise that employs people and promotes unemployment" I have no real idea to what you'd be driving at. But if you're trying to say that business by it's very nature creates dystopia, then you and I are about as opposed on the subject of economic freedom as possible.

However, since you are now the 3rd person to bring up The Worldly Philosophers to me in these last 2 years, I will have to seek it out. I cannot agree with or rebuke a thing if I cannot speak to it

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Friday, May 1, 2009 10:58 AM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Quote:
But if you're trying to say that business by it's very nature creates dystopia, then you and I are about as opposed on the subject of economic freedom as possible.

You're very perceptive then! Because you've gotten to the heart of my opinion on the topic!

Quote:
However, since you are now the 3rd person to bring up The Worldly Philosophers to me in these last 2 years, I will have to find it.

What's say you read that book and I'll re-read Atlas Shrugged, and then we can compare notes? Time and distance make fools of us all... a re-read might be worth my while.

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We should have strapped him into a glider, filled it nose heavy w/ explosives, and dropped his Allah lovin' ass into a large, empty field. After which, release wild boars into the area so they could make good use of his remains. Now THAT's justice.- rappy

Yeah, that's what Sheikh Issa said. Seems you both have a lot in common.- signy

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Friday, May 1, 2009 11:40 AM

ELVISCHRIST

Quote:
Blackjack used to be accessable through card counting but it is not possible anymore due to modern countermeasures.

While I agree with you on poker being more about the skill than the cards, there IS an element of chance to it. Not much, but it's there. It's why some of the best players in the world are eliminated every year on the first day of the World Series of Poker.

Also, if you're not winning at blackjack, you're at the wrong table. Counting cards is still done, and it's still pretty damned easy, to be honest. Just make sure you're at a one-deck table. Last time I went through Vegas, I limited myself to $100 to "gamble" with on Blackjack. I left with $2100 in my pocket.

Don't tell me that my ship is coming in...
Time's running out the door you're running in.

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Friday, May 1, 2009 11:58 AM

SERGEANTX

Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko:
Quote:

Speculation is not the same thing as gambling. The key to speculating successfully is having a good understanding of how the economy works, good judgment, and good information about the target of your speculation.

No offense, Sarge, and not to be a dick, but isn't that pretty much what every gambler says about their "system"?

Sure, but that's not what makes it different. It's different from gambling because in placing their "bets", speculators are indirectly making the calls for what kinds of economic activities go forward, and which are curtailed. All this becomes readily apparent when you look at the difficulty of running a centrally managed, communist-style economy. Someone has to decide where to apply a nation's labor and resources. In free market economies, those calls are made in aggregate by the decisions of investors and speculators.

Quote:
And how is it that huge Wall Street investment firms, who are supposed to have a better understanding of these things than ANYBODY, still managed to so utterly and completely tank?

Because they suck. Maybe, if you'll forgive the ideological shot, because they assumed the government was going to do whatever it took to keep things humming along.

SergeantX

"Dream a little dream or you can live a little dream. I'd rather live it, cause dreamers always chase but never get it." Aesop Rock

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Friday, May 1, 2009 12:49 PM

Quote:

Quote:

And how is it that huge Wall Street investment firms, who are supposed to have a better understanding of these things than ANYBODY, still managed to so utterly and completely tank?

Because they suck. Maybe, if you'll forgive the ideological shot, because they assumed the government was going to do whatever it took to keep things humming along.

I'll gladly forgive that, since I don't find it to be ideological or partisan at all; after all, BOTH parties have given hundred of billions to those firms now, in an effort to keep things humming along.

Mike

Build a man a fire and he'll be warm for a day...
Set a man on fire and he'll be warm for the rest of his life.

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Friday, May 1, 2009 1:01 PM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

"Maybe ... because they assumed the government was going to do whatever it took to keep things humming along."

You're basing one assumption on another. As an argument, it's not very convincing.

HOWEVER - whereas I see GWB as making frantic trillion-dollar giveaways to try to hold off the crash until after he was out of office to insure his 'legacy' - I see Obama as essentially ideologically hand-in-glove with specific major industries: the finance industry, Wall Street, and the healthcare industry. He doesn't wish to bypass them, or reform them, or rein them in, or eliminate them. He wants their support (for what purpose remains to be seen), and so he seems to be most interested in currying their favor, with billions in tax dollars.

It's interesting to note his hierarchy - the auto industry is definitely below the finance industry.

***************************************************************

Silence is consent.

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Monday, May 4, 2009 4:23 AM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

So, any reasons why the stock market is necessary, or even preferable?

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We should have strapped him into a glider, filled it nose heavy w/ explosives, and dropped his Allah lovin' ass into a large, empty field. After which, release wild boars into the area so they could make good use of his remains. Now THAT's justice.- rappy

Yeah, that's what Sheikh Issa said. Seems you both have a lot in common.- signy

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Monday, May 4, 2009 7:06 AM

JONGSSTRAW

The market is too big a gamble for the little guy. Market makers set the bid/ask to guarantee that you start in the hole. Then a plethora of things come along to affect the stock price that have nothing to do with the actual company's performance...

Daily World Current Events
OPEC Announcements
Sector Reports
Triple Witching
Labor Report
Short Selling
Options
Analyst Reports
Co. Quarterly Report
etc
etc

So there you are with your shares, thinking you bought stock in a "good" company. It starts going down for no apparent reason, except that it is vulnerable to all of the above, and more. If a small investor can pick the right stock, and also time it right on the buy & sell, you may make a profit, but it 'aint easy. Then of course, you get taxed on that profit that you risked your own capital on. If hedge funds or short sellers are playing your stock, you'll pray for a day you can just break even. The mental anguish, and stress involved with losing money makes the Market a bad place to be for most. Stick with a Bank CD; only about 2-2.5% now, but it's safe. Rates will go up in the future, and you will not have lost one cent.

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Tuesday, May 5, 2009 11:37 PM

JEWELSTAITEFAN

Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko:
Quote:
The technological revolution we've seen over the last 30 Years would not have been possible without the Stock Market.

Of course, it could also be said that the economic collapse of the last 30 months would not have been possible without the stock market either... So it's not ALL good.

You could say that, but as usual you would be wrong. The "collapse" could not have happened without Obaminations's ACORN, and pressuring of Fannie Mae and Fannie Mac.

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Tuesday, May 5, 2009 11:43 PM

JEWELSTAITEFAN

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
So, the Dow is up. Or its down. Or... what the hell. Who the frak cares?

Most people make most of their money WORKING and stocks are form of gambling billed as investment. For most peeps the fate of Wall Street is about as relevant as the rate of slot winnings in Las Vegas. And the stock market seems to lead to really BAD, short-term (quarterly) corporate decisions. I wish it would implode and cease to be factor.

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We should have strapped him into a glider, filled it nose heavy w/ explosives, and dropped his Allah lovin' ass into a large, empty field. After which, release wild boars into the area so they could make good use of his remains. Now THAT's justice.- rappy

Yeah, that's what Sheikh Issa said. Seems you both have a lot in common.- signy

Amazing concept, or your total lack of understanding.

Since Mar 9, the S&P Index funds are up 35%, International Stock funds are up 38%, and Small Cap funds are up 44%. But somehow, you know people who can MULTIPLY their worth by 1.44 in 7 weeks just by going to work?? REALLY? Tell us all how.
Yes, I go to work each day. Yes, I have gained more in my retirement portfolio in the last 7 weeks than I have contributed in the past 18 months.

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Wednesday, May 6, 2009 1:56 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by jewelstaitefan:
Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko:
Quote:
The technological revolution we've seen over the last 30 Years would not have been possible without the Stock Market.

Of course, it could also be said that the economic collapse of the last 30 months would not have been possible without the stock market either... So it's not ALL good.

You could say that, but as usual you would be wrong. The "collapse" could not have happened without Obaminations's ACORN, and pressuring of Fannie Mae and Fannie Mac.

Ah, yes - Rappy's same tired old "Chris Dodd and Barney Frank are the most powerful men in the universe!" argument - only this time you've added ACORN into the mix.

Put the sock back in the drawer already.

Mike

Build a man a fire and he'll be warm for a day...
Set a man on fire and he'll be warm for the rest of his life.

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Wednesday, May 6, 2009 1:57 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by jewelstaitefan:
Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
So, the Dow is up. Or its down. Or... what the hell. Who the frak cares?

Most people make most of their money WORKING and stocks are form of gambling billed as investment. For most peeps the fate of Wall Street is about as relevant as the rate of slot winnings in Las Vegas. And the stock market seems to lead to really BAD, short-term (quarterly) corporate decisions. I wish it would implode and cease to be factor.

----------------------
We should have strapped him into a glider, filled it nose heavy w/ explosives, and dropped his Allah lovin' ass into a large, empty field. After which, release wild boars into the area so they could make good use of his remains. Now THAT's justice.- rappy

Yeah, that's what Sheikh Issa said. Seems you both have a lot in common.- signy

Amazing concept, or your total lack of understanding.

Since Mar 9, the S&P Index funds are up 35%, International Stock funds are up 38%, and Small Cap funds are up 44%. But somehow, you know people who can MULTIPLY their worth by 1.44 in 7 weeks just by going to work?? REALLY? Tell us all how.
Yes, I go to work each day. Yes, I have gained more in my retirement portfolio in the last 7 weeks than I have contributed in the past 18 months.

I'm amazed that ACORN would let you do that...

Mike

Build a man a fire and he'll be warm for a day...
Set a man on fire and he'll be warm for the rest of his life.

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Wednesday, May 6, 2009 4:09 AM