U.S. Sales tax may be on the way, The rate? Possibly as high as 25% by badkarma00

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)

Quote:
This will wreck us for good, if the rate is accurate at all.

Huh. I would've thought we were stronger than that. This is the thing that will finally wreck this country for good, eh? Funny... the Europeans seem able to somehow continue to survive under the onerous burden - and they've got $5-a-gallon gas to go along with it!

I wouldn't really mind a VAT if it (a) were reasonable, and (b) replaced state sales taxes and state and federal income taxes. But it won't, because once they've gotten their hand in your pocket, no one EVER takes it out voluntarily...

Mike

Build a man a fire and he'll be warm for a day...
Set a man on fire and he'll be warm for the rest of his life.

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Wednesday, May 27, 2009 1:23 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko:
Quote:
This will wreck us for good, if the rate is accurate at all.

Huh. I would've thought we were stronger than that. This is the thing that will finally wreck this country for good, eh? Funny... the Europeans seem able to somehow continue to survive under the onerous burden - and they've got $5-a-gallon gas to go along with it!

I wouldn't really mind a VAT if it (a) were reasonable, and (b) replaced state sales taxes and state and federal income taxes. But it won't, because once they've gotten their hand in your pocket, no one EVER takes it out voluntarily...

Mike

Build a man a fire and he'll be warm for a day...
Set a man on fire and he'll be warm for the rest of his life.

----------------

That was my point, kwicko. If it was the only tax, then maybe we could accept it. But they aren't talking about recinding any of the other taxes, save perhaps cutting the income tax in places.

But, a family of five with a yearly income of $30,000 will pay the same VAT as a family of five with a 120,000 income.

As a Republican, I'm all for everyone paying their fair share, but that's too much. Hopefully, if they decide to enact it, the tax won't be added to groceries, OTC meds, or childrens clothes and shoes.

That still wouldn't make it fair, but it might make it manageable.

Bad_karma
Great and Exalted Grand Pooba, International Brotherhood of Moonshiners, Rednecks, and Good Old Boys.

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Wednesday, May 27, 2009 1:29 PM

By the way, Kwick, you do realize you just used 'reasonable' to describe a government action, right? I mean, you didn't mean it, right? lol

Bad_karma
Great and Exalted Grand Pooba, International Brotherhood of Moonshiners, Rednecks, and Good Old Boys.

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Wednesday, May 27, 2009 3:16 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by badkarma00:
By the way, Kwick, you do realize you just used 'reasonable' to describe a government action, right? I mean, you didn't mean it, right? lol

Well, you'll notice I used the word "if" as a qualifier with that "reasonable", too... I mean, I might be nuts, but I'm not CRAZY!

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Wednesday, May 27, 2009 3:22 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko:
Quote:
Originally posted by badkarma00:
By the way, Kwick, you do realize you just used 'reasonable' to describe a government action, right? I mean, you didn't mean it, right? lol

Well, you'll notice I used the word "if" as a qualifier with that "reasonable", too... I mean, I might be nuts, but I'm not CRAZY!

-------------------

ROFLMFAO

Bad_karma
Great and Exalted Grand Pooba, International Brotherhood of Moonshiners, Rednecks, and Good Old Boys.

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Wednesday, May 27, 2009 4:28 PM

I say "bring it". A thriving black market will be good for this country.

SergeantX

"It's cold and it's a broken hallelujah"

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Wednesday, May 27, 2009 4:33 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by SergeantX:
I say "bring it". A thriving black market will be good for this country.

SergeantX

"It's cold and it's a broken hallelujah"

---------------

Wont be much good to folks that's already stretched to thin as it is. Folks with kids to look after.

Bad_karma
Great and Exalted Grand Pooba, International Brotherhood of Moonshiners, Rednecks, and Good Old Boys.

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Wednesday, May 27, 2009 5:01 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by SergeantX:
I say "bring it". A thriving black market will be good for this country.

SergeantX

"It's cold and it's a broken hallelujah"

Same as it ever was...

Mike

Build a man a fire and he'll be warm for a day...
Set a man on fire and he'll be warm for the rest of his life.

"You're a idiot." -AuRaptor, RWED, May 27, 2009.

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Wednesday, May 27, 2009 8:53 PM

FREMDFIRMA

Quote:
I say "bring it". A thriving black market will be good for this country.

Will be ?

I'd say more, but I think not, for the moment.

-F

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Wednesday, May 27, 2009 11:21 PM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!

I prefer the FAIR TAX , and do away w/ the income tax, personally.

The T.Rex they call JANE!

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Wednesday, May 27, 2009 11:54 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:
I prefer the FAIR TAX , and do away w/ the income tax, personally.

The T.Rex they call JANE!

----------------------

I don't know exactly what you mean by Fair Tax. I think I've seen it somewhere, but I've been out of things for a bit.

Personally, I prefer a flat rate income tax, with no exemptions whatever, and no one below, say $10,000 above the pverty level pays anything. It's not quite fair, I guess, but those who are at or near poverty level will have it a little easier.

By eliminating all exemptions, we also eliminate the need for so much IRS involvement, saving taxpayer money.

But since this makes sense, it's unlikely that the government will ever adopt such a thing, lol.

Bad_karma
Great and Exalted Grand Pooba, International Brotherhood of Moonshiners, Rednecks, and Good Old Boys.

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Thursday, May 28, 2009 1:01 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by badkarma00:
I don't know exactly what you mean by Fair Tax. I think I've seen it somewhere, but I've been out of things for a bit.

The "Fair Tax" is a system that pushes the tax burden to lower income people, which rich people consider fair.

Quote:
Originally posted by badkarma00:
Personally, I prefer a flat rate income tax, with no exemptions whatever, and no one below, say $10,000 above the pverty level pays anything. It's not quite fair, I guess, but those who are at or near poverty level will have it a little easier.

Isn't that an exemption?

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Thursday, May 28, 2009 1:31 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by citizen:
Quote:
Originally posted by badkarma00:
I don't know exactly what you mean by Fair Tax. I think I've seen it somewhere, but I've been out of things for a bit.

The "Fair Tax" is a system that pushes the tax burden to lower income people, which rich people consider fair.

Quote:
Originally posted by badkarma00:
Personally, I prefer a flat rate income tax, with no exemptions whatever, and no one below, say $10,000 above the pverty level pays anything. It's not quite fair, I guess, but those who are at or near poverty level will have it a little easier.

Isn't that an exemption?

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No, not used like that. Exemptions are all the shit that rich people get to deduct from their taxes so they wind up paying less than some of us po' folks, lol. Real Estate, investments, all that crap. There's a blue million loop holes in the tax code for people who can afford to take advantage of them.

Those are the 'exemptions' I'm talking about. Exempting someone whose already on the poverty level from paying the flat rate income tax isn't quite the same thing, as I see it.

They'll still be paying taxes, whether it's the VAT or sales tax that all locales have, or fees for vehicle registration, or what have you.

That's what I was talking about.

But, like I said, it makes sense, so the proabability that we'll ever have something like that is very unlikely, lol.

Bad_karma
Great and Exalted Grand Pooba, International Brotherhood of Moonshiners, Rednecks, and Good Old Boys.

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Thursday, May 28, 2009 3:00 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Fremdfirma:
Quote:
I say "bring it". A thriving black market will be good for this country.

Will be ?

I'd say more, but I think not, for the moment.

-F

Well, "thriving" is a relative term. If we see a 25% national sales tax the underground economy will become the free market.

SergeantX

"It's cold and it's a broken hallelujah"

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Thursday, May 28, 2009 3:32 AM

HERO

Quote:
Originally posted by badkarma00:
This would make a $100 dollar grocery bill about $134 dollars. Let's hear it for HObamaman!

No silly. He's a Democrat and he promised NOT to raise taxes on the poor and middle class.

And if there's anything we can rely on from the Democrats its keeping campaign promises and not raising taxes. That and their high moral standards and lack of corruption.

H

"Hero. I have come to respect you"- Chrisisall, 2009.

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Thursday, May 28, 2009 3:48 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Hero:
Quote:
Originally posted by badkarma00:
This would make a $100 dollar grocery bill about $134 dollars. Let's hear it for HObamaman!

No silly. He's a Democrat and he promised NOT to raise taxes on the poor and middle class.

And if there's anything we can rely on from the Democrats its keeping campaign promises and not raising taxes. That and their high moral standards and lack of corruption.

H

"Hero. I have come to respect you"- Chrisisall, 2009.

Y'know, if he REALLY wanted to rub it in, he should've said "Read my lips: NO NEW TAXES!" ...and then, of course, signed one of the largest tax increases in history... ;)

Bush did SUCH a wonderful job of keeping his campaign promises, didn't he? "I'm a uniter, not a divider." And there was hardly a whisper of any corruption from Republicans in the last eight years, was there? I mean, aside from Mark Foley, Larry Craig, Ted Haggard, Ted Stevens, Sarah Palin, Iraq-gate, Torture-gate, Blackwater-gate, Haliburton-gate, Katrina-gate, Shooting-your-friend-in-the-face-gate, and a host of others.

Yeah, if there's one thing that the Republicans are known for, it's for not fucking things up monumentally at every opportunity!

Mike

Build a man a fire and he'll be warm for a day...
Set a man on fire and he'll be warm for the rest of his life.

"You're a idiot." -AuRaptor, RWED, May 27, 2009.

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Thursday, May 28, 2009 4:15 AM

CANTTAKESKY

Quote:
Originally posted by SergeantX:
Well, "thriving" is a relative term. If we see a 25% national sales tax the underground economy will become the free market.

Yep. I've seen it happen in every country I've lived where taxes are crazy (as in people can no longer afford to feed or clothe their kids if they paid them).

I've noticed a surge here in the US too. Businesses used to do everything by the book. Nowadays, it is not uncommon to find someone who will offer a small discount in services or goods if you paid cash. You can just imagine why.

That is why the government likes to regulate cash. I imagine that those regulations are going to become more stringent as the underground economy grows.

My husband got stopped before boarding an international flight by a federal agent of some sort, asking each passenger how much cash they were carrying with them out of the country. That used to never happen. Now, well....

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Thursday, May 28, 2009 4:31 AM

Yup. The Fair Tax would be the excuse they've been looking for to crack down on cash, eventually outlawing it altogether. At that point, credit card companies will have inserted themselves as permanent middlemen in every economic transaction. It's a "win/win" scenario. The government gets more reliable taxing power (lots more power in general, for that matter) and the credit card companies will have a stranglehold on our economy.

At least they'll be clarity.

SergeantX

"It's cold and it's a broken hallelujah"

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Thursday, May 28, 2009 4:39 AM

BLUESUNCOMPANYMAN

Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:
I prefer the FAIR TAX , and do away w/ the income tax, personally.

Hear, Hear.
Now you're sounding like a libertarian.

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Thursday, May 28, 2009 4:42 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by bluesuncompanyman:
Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:
I prefer the FAIR TAX , and do away w/ the income tax, personally.
Hear, Hear.
Now you're sounding like a libertarian.

???

I don't know what the Libertarian Party has to say about the Fair Tax, or a national sales tax, but I think it would be as least as bad as the national income tax (likely much worse).

Of course, the mostly likely outcome is that we'll get both. Huzzah!

SergeantX

"It's a cold and it's a broken hallelujah"

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Thursday, May 28, 2009 6:44 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by badkarma00:
No, not used like that. Exemptions are all the shit that rich people get to deduct from their taxes so they wind up paying less than some of us po' folks, lol. Real Estate, investments, all that crap. There's a blue million loop holes in the tax code for people who can afford to take advantage of them.

Those are the 'exemptions' I'm talking about. Exempting someone whose already on the poverty level from paying the flat rate income tax isn't quite the same thing, as I see it.

Ok, I get it. But isn't that just a less graduated version of progressive taxation with a personal allowance?

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Thursday, May 28, 2009 8:57 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by citizen:
Quote:
Originally posted by badkarma00:
No, not used like that. Exemptions are all the shit that rich people get to deduct from their taxes so they wind up paying less than some of us po' folks, lol. Real Estate, investments, all that crap. There's a blue million loop holes in the tax code for people who can afford to take advantage of them.

Those are the 'exemptions' I'm talking about. Exempting someone whose already on the poverty level from paying the flat rate income tax isn't quite the same thing, as I see it.

Ok, I get it. But isn't that just a less graduated version of progressive taxation with a personal allowance?

---------------

Well, I don't think so, if I have my facts straight on the progressive tax. At a flat rate of say, 9%, everyone simply pays a straight 9% in income tax.

I guess, thought, since the more you make, the more that 9% would add up to, maybe it is at similar to the progressive tax. But with the progressive tax rate, if I have it right, (which I may not,) the more you make, the higher the tax rate becomes.

With the flat tax, I think ( as in theorize, lol) that everyone pays at least some taxes, or 'does their part' so to speak, but the burden is fairly mild, compared to now.

Bear in mind that I'm not an accountant, lol. It just seems like a common sense approach. I know there has to be some taxes. Government has some functions that need to be done, regardless of what some folks at either extreme end of the spectrum seem to think, and that means we have to pay at least some taxes in order to support those functions.

Anyway, it's just an idea. And I'll admit that it's not my idea. It's been floating around for years in one form or another. But, I do think it's a good idea. At least worth a solid look, even it doesn't end up working out.

Bad_karma
Great and Exalted Grand Pooba, International Brotherhood of Moonshiners, Rednecks, and Good Old Boys.

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Thursday, May 28, 2009 9:34 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by badkarma00:
Well, I don't think so, if I have my facts straight on the progressive tax. At a flat rate of say, 9%, everyone simply pays a straight 9% in income tax.

Well I was commenting on the fact it's not actually a flat tax, it's graduated, albeit from 0% to whatever%.

Anyway, I don't accept that a flat tax is 'fair'. I see the argument for it's being fair, but it would only seem to appear so if certain points are ignored. It would seem that 10% to some may be an unnoticeable value, while 10% to others may be the difference between paying rent and living on the street.

What I mean is that I believe tax should be paid on disposable earnings, not total earnings. I think no one should be in the position of choosing to commit tax fraud and eat, or pay the government and starve. Since lower income people will have a smaller percentage of their earnings as disposable, it goes to say that if we only tax their disposable earnings, the percent of tax to their total earnings will be lower than someone on a greater salary.

To illustrate, if 10% of your earnings are disposable, a 9% flat tax will take 90% of your disposable earnings. If however 50% of your earnings are disposable, a 9% tax rate will only take 18% of your disposable earnings. It's the same overall percentage of earnings, but it has a much greater impact on one person over the other.

That the basis of a progressive tax methodology. It's not about punishing the rich, it's about recognising that a percentage of income that may be insignificant to one person, may be crippling to someone on a lower income. It also about recognising one other thing, high earners tend to be utilising and benefiting from the nations infrastructure to a greater degree, so why should they not make a greater contribution to it's upkeep?

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Thursday, May 28, 2009 10:18 AM

Of course, we also need to do away with corporate personhood. Or we need to make corporations pay taxes at the exact same rate that an individual person would pay on the same income levels.

Mike

Build a man a fire and he'll be warm for a day...
Set a man on fire and he'll be warm for the rest of his life.

"You're a idiot." -AuRaptor, RWED, May 27, 2009.

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Thursday, May 28, 2009 10:24 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko:
Of course, we also need to do away with corporate personhood. Or we need to make corporations pay taxes at the exact same rate that an individual person would pay on the same income levels.

No, because private enterprise is like god, and must have all the advantages and none of the disadvantages of personhood. Plus the government should protect ONLY their interests.

YOU CLOD!

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Thursday, May 28, 2009 11:30 AM

What do you mean it's *like* God?

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Thursday, May 28, 2009 2:39 PM

BIGDAMNNOBODY

Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko:
Of course, we also need to do away with corporate personhood. Or we need to make corporations pay taxes at the exact same rate that an individual person would pay on the same income levels.

Just curious, how many people do you employ? How many people's livelihoods depend on the money you pay them?

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Thursday, May 28, 2009 4:01 PM