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Originally posted by AgentRouka:

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Originally posted by kpo:

Okay forget about 'rights' - unfortunate choice of wording. I merely meant to point out that harshness of punishment should be factored into the moral calculation - the question is more complex than 'which is worth more, the life of the mother or the foetus?' since the life of the mother is not typically at risk.

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But that's my point exactly.

It doesn't matter whether there is physical risk for the woman. And it's not a question of worth. Both are of equal worth.

But you can take two worthy individuals and very fairly sentence one to death if the only way it can survive is to harvest another person's body against their will.

It's a conflict of interest that the fetus cannot win unless you artificially increase its status and worth over that of the mother, by eliminating her right to say no to being a host and thus strip her of her right to physical self-determination. Hardly fair and hardly consistent with human rights.

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Originally posted by kpo:

Oh that's all you're arguing then? Yeah sure, you had me with your first post and the torture analogy. You swayed me there, and I said something at the time. SargeX also had a good way of describing things.

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I've mainly been debating the personal ethics of the issue, thinking how a mother might weigh the decision.

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Originally posted by Kwicko:
I've taken great pains to STOP myself from procreating, in fact.

Mike

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Originally posted by citizen:

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Originally posted by yinyang:

I'm yinyang, and I support abortion. Nice to meet you.

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Isuspect you don't understand what I said

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Originally posted by yinyang:
Or maybe I understand it perfectly well.

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Originally posted by yinyang:
Although it might help if you elaborated on what you meant.

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Originally posted by yinyang:
Because I find few abortions to be tragic, and in fact think that they can often be good things; and rather than just wanting them to remain legal, I would like there to be even greater access to abortion for those that would like them.

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Originally posted by Jongsstraw:

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Originally posted by Kwicko:
I've taken great pains to STOP myself from procreating, in fact.

Mike

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Thank God for small favors.

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Originally posted by Kwicko:

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Originally posted by Jongsstraw:

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Originally posted by Kwicko:
I've taken great pains to STOP myself from procreating, in fact.

Mike

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Thank God for small favors.

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You "god" had nothing to do with it. You may as well thank Santa Claus or the Easter Bunny.

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Originally posted by yinyang:
Citizen: I will admit that my initial remark was quite flip, and so I very well could have misunderstood you, especially as the way you constructed your sentence seemed similar to the way moderates are likely to argue that no one likes abortions, but people should have the right to get them anyway.

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"Let's have an abortion!" Cynthia declared excitedly as she entered the house with an armload of synthogroceries. "Wouldn't that be neat? Doesn't that turn you on?"
...
"it's the in thing now, to have an abortion."

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Originally posted by Jongsstraw:

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Originally posted by Kwicko:

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Originally posted by Jongsstraw:

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Originally posted by Kwicko:
I've taken great pains to STOP myself from procreating, in fact.

Mike

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Thank God for small favors.

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You "god" had nothing to do with it. You may as well thank Santa Claus or the Easter Bunny.

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My God is the same God as George Washington's, John Adams', Jefferson's, and Lincoln's God. Pity you're a godless, souless, secular humanist who thinks his own ego is the center of the universe.

But besides that, my little 5-word post above was just meant as as a harmless rib at ya, considering as you say we shared some common ground recently. What happenned to your sense of humor?

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Originally posted by Kwicko:
Originally posted by Jongsstraw:
Thank God for small favors.

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Yeah, that's really funny. Oh, hey - I hope your wife and kids all die, ha-ha.

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Male dogs sometimes hump anything that moves - or even lifeless objects. Etc. Suffice to say there are plenty of examples of species that have sex for fun.

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Originally posted by Jongsstraw:
Are you totally fucked Kwikkie? I wrote "Thank God for small favors"...and you fucking go off on me? Go fuck yourself you pathetic asshole.


And Citizen...is it your mission here to fuck with everyone? I have avoided all your nasty shit here for the last several days, but you just can't control yourself now, can you. Take your crooked yellow Limey teeth and bite yourself hard.

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Originally posted by citizen:

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Originally posted by yinyang:
Citizen: I will admit that my initial remark was quite flip, and so I very well could have misunderstood you, especially as the way you constructed your sentence seemed similar to the way moderates are likely to argue that no one likes abortions, but people should have the right to get them anyway.

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Does anyone like abortions? When I like something, I enjoy it and aim to get it as often as is within reason. I aim to set up situations where I can partake in said activity. I like Ice Cream, so I occasionally make sure I go to the shops, and buy it. Sometimes I even go just to get ice cream. Eating Ice Cream isn't the best of a number of options for me, it's something I do when I don't have to, or even when it's not just the best choice of options, because I like it.

Liking abortion to me sounds rather like a woman who says to herself "you know, I really like abortions, I'm going to get pregnant so I can have one". Like the laughable caricature paraded by the Far Right, or Philip K Dick in his short story "The Pre-persons" for that matter:

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"Let's have an abortion!" Cynthia declared excitedly as she entered the house with an armload of synthogroceries. "Wouldn't that be neat? Doesn't that turn you on?"
...
"it's the in thing now, to have an abortion."

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I don't believe there is such a person outside the fevered imagination of the extremists. If you're such a person, then I stand corrected, but until stated otherwise I refuse to accept it.

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Originally posted by kpo:
You can support abortion as the best of two bad options, and you don't have to like it. I don't think yinyang or anyone here is talking about supporting abortions for the perverse pleasure of it.

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Originally posted by kpo:
Do you accept it as a preferred choice of birth control though citizen?

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Originally posted by AgentRouka:

You mean a woman who is already a mother of living children?

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Originally posted by kpo:
Do you accept it as a preferred choice of birth control though citizen?
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No.

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are you sure that the dog is acting this way for 'the fun of it'

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Originally posted by Jongsstraw:

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Originally posted by Kwicko:
Originally posted by Jongsstraw:
Thank God for small favors.

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Yeah, that's really funny. Oh, hey - I hope your wife and kids all die, ha-ha.

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Are you totally fucked Kwikkie? I wrote "Thank God for small favors"...and you fucking go off on me? Go fuck yourself you pathetic asshole.


And Citizen...is it your mission here to fuck with everyone? I have avoided all your nasty shit here for the last several days, but you just can't control yourself now, can you. Take your crooked yellow Limey teeth and bite yourself hard.

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Originally posted by kpo:
All right, eating is a good example - you have the urge, and then it's rewarding when you satisfy it.

It's the same thing with relieving yourself in the bathroom, or scratching an itch, but, human orgasms are a little bit more than this...

Can you say the same for other animals?

Heads should roll

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Are you totally fucked Kwikkie? I wrote "Thank God for small favors"

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Originally posted by kpo:
So would you make moral judgments on a woman who does so?

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Originally posted by Kwicko:
You never bothered to ask, you just decided to be a dick about it. I responded in kind. Sorry, but it touched a nerve.

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Originally posted by kpo:
I was asking a question, and inviting people to think. You guys can be pretty rigid sometimes.

I can go away and do some research and present my case, and then we can contest the whole issue from entrenched positions - or we could share info and opinions, and learn from each other.

Heads should roll

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Originally posted by kpo:

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Are you totally fucked Kwikkie? I wrote "Thank God for small favors"

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It was a good line Jong, but not appropriate to somebody you don't already have that kind of rapport with, I would say.

Heads should roll

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Originally posted by rue:
"It's the same thing with relieving yourself in the bathroom, or scratching an itch, but, human orgasms are a little bit more than this...

Can you say the same for other animals?"

Human orgasms more than eating ? How so ?


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Silence is consent.

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Originally posted by rue:
OH !

I, uhhh ... ... have no comment at the moment.

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Silence is consent.

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Originally posted by Kwicko:

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Originally posted by kpo:

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Are you totally fucked Kwikkie? I wrote "Thank God for small favors"

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It was a good line Jong, but not appropriate to somebody you don't already have that kind of rapport with, I would say.

Heads should roll

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Yeah, and he and I *DEFINITELY* don't have that kind of rapport, to put it mildly.

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Originally posted by Jongsstraw:

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Originally posted by Kwicko:

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Originally posted by kpo:

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Are you totally fucked Kwikkie? I wrote "Thank God for small favors"

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It was a good line Jong, but not appropriate to somebody you don't already have that kind of rapport with, I would say.

Heads should roll

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Yeah, and he and I *DEFINITELY* don't have that kind of rapport, to put it mildly.

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Right, that's what made it totally appropriate. I excersized great restaint with just a 5-word jab. Whatevers haoli.

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Originally posted by Kwicko:

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Originally posted by kpo:
I was asking a question, and inviting people to think. You guys can be pretty rigid sometimes.

I can go away and do some research and present my case, and then we can contest the whole issue from entrenched positions - or we could share info and opinions, and learn from each other.

Heads should roll

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Well, granted, and it DID make me think - hence the question I asked you, in an effort to make YOU think about it.

Mike

Build a man a fire and he'll be warm for a day...
Set a man on fire and he'll be warm for the rest of his life.

"You're a idiot." -AuRaptor, RWED, May 27, 2009.

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Originally posted by rue:
"he has never advocated violence against Tiller"

Go look up the thread - 'the demonization of the opposition'. Simply portraying people in sub-human terms makes it easy to not see them as people. It IS the first step to political violence against others - as anyone who has followed the Serbs and the Hutus will tell you.

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Or, you can go put on your blinkers, plug your ears, and hum loudly.

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Originally posted by SignyM:
Bill O'Reilly encourages and incites violence.

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