REAL WORLD EVENT DISCUSSIONS

No such thing as 'Rest In Peace'

POSTED BY: CHRISISALL
UPDATED: Monday, June 29, 2009 13:37
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VIEWED: 3120
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Saturday, June 27, 2009 9:40 AM

CHRISISALL


So, you make it through this life, and then what? You rest in peace? What peace? If you're lucky, you go to Heaven where you have to listen to f*cking angel music & s*it, or God droning on an on (and on) about how righteous he is, or if you go to Hell you basically bake & regenerate so you can bake again endlessly, or if you're Buddhist you come back as a tree so you can be cut down, or a homeless peep if you were a Wall Street banker or s*it, or if you believe in some other dopey religion you go to the Hell Of Being Skinned Alive or s*it...

I mean, it never ends, does it?
Frak.


The laughing Chrisisall

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Saturday, June 27, 2009 10:07 AM

OPPYH


Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
So, you make it through this life, and then what? You rest in peace? What peace? If you're lucky, you go to Heaven where you have to listen to f*cking angel music & s*it, or God droning on an on (and on) about how righteous he is, or if you go to Hell you basically bake & regenerate so you can bake again endlessly, or if you're Buddhist you come back as a tree so you can be cut down, or a homeless peep if you were a Wall Street banker or s*it, or if you believe in some other dopey religion you go to the Hell Of Being Skinned Alive or s*it...

Why so bitter?

I've done a ton of research into it. Life after death DOES exist. It may be a different realm for your spirit, but when you die, it happens whether you'd like it to or not. Our minds can't in their physical state comprehend this, but as we cross over to the spirit realm, you will.

Heaven is a place of eternal love, peace, and happiness. No war, bickering, or hate.
How in the world would that be a bad thing? Do you believe Chrisisall?


Scariest book I've ever read:23 minutes in Hell
http://www.sherryshriner.com/revelations.htm


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Saturday, June 27, 2009 10:31 AM

HKCAVALIER


Well, some things are true Chris. Seems a good, oh, 99% of your emotions, your "unrest," arise from the interface between spirit and matter (so when the psychologists say all your neuroses can be traced back to "fear of death," they're not entirely wrong).

So when ya die, you let go of the vast majority of your troubles and therefore, "rest in peace."

You know this to be true.

Think of dying as a kind of waking, a break from all the chaos of life-on-earth. An opportunity to take stock before you take the blue pill and plunge back in.

Funny thing is, we keep comin' back, now, don't we? Must be something in the water.

HKCavalier

Hey, hey, hey, don't be mean. We don't have to be mean, because, remember, no matter where you go, there you are.

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Saturday, June 27, 2009 10:34 AM

ECGORDON

There's no place I can be since I found Serenity.


Quote:
Originally posted by OPPYH:
I've done a ton of research into it. Life after death DOES exist.

Pray tell, enlighten us if you can, oh Grasshopper!

Or rather don't bother, since what you will say is only what you believe, not what you know, as if anyone can know.



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Saturday, June 27, 2009 11:46 AM

OPPYH


Quote:
Originally posted by ecgordon:

Pray tell, enlighten us if you can, oh Grasshopper!

Or rather don't bother, since what you will say is only what you believe, not what you know, as if anyone can know.


Ok, faith is a tricky thing. In my opinion, there is an afterlife. Sorry to have offended you.

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Saturday, June 27, 2009 12:17 PM

CHRISISALL


Quote:
Originally posted by HKCavalier:
You know this to be true.

Think of dying as a kind of waking, a break from all the chaos of life-on-earth. An opportunity to take stock before you take the blue pill and plunge back in.
LOL, funny you should put it in quite that way, HK. I couldn't have said it better, and it happens to be precisely what I personally hold to be true.
Quote:
Funny thing is, we keep comin' back, now, don't we?
[David Lo Pan voice]
Like fools!
[/David Lo Pan voice]


The laughing Chrisisall

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Saturday, June 27, 2009 12:23 PM

CHRISISALL


Quote:
Originally posted by OPPYH:
Why so bitter?
Not a bit of it.
Just bein' my old provocative self is all.
Quote:


Heaven is a place of eternal love, peace, and happiness. No war, bickering, or hate.
How in the world would that be a bad thing?
I look to bored by many more of your sermons before you slip.
Quote:
Do you believe Chrisisall?
In Buddah? Yep.
Jesus Christ? He was definitely cool.
A dear & fluffy Lord? That's a long wait for a train don't come. Lessin' you realize that the 'Verse is all one.



The laughing Chrisisall

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Saturday, June 27, 2009 12:30 PM

CHRISISALL


Quote:
Originally posted by OPPYH:
I've done a ton of research into it. Life after death DOES exist.
The movie "Legend Of Hell House" may be of some interest to ya, then.
It was to me.


The laughing Chrisisall

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Saturday, June 27, 2009 12:43 PM

GRIPPER


Hey,even though I am no where even CLOSE to being a good Catholic( think of me as steadily falling!);I DO believe that quite a few of the major religions get at least some of it right-we most likely DO go on after shuffling off of tis mortal coil....
It would be kind of cool to see if one of the "also rans" nail it m,though-picture some fusion of the Rastafarians,Norse,Sikhs and Hasdic Jews for a "next chapter-next verse"...you think they'd allow Bob Marley and Jimi Hendrix to be part of Valhalla's house band????Maybe throw in Ashton from the Stooges&Mia Zapata from the Gits...
I DO cocur with an earlier posters not being down with the whole "blessedly bored "thing;but maybe your perspective changes as your existence does.
Another one of those isues for th eholy men to debate....

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Saturday, June 27, 2009 1:23 PM

CHRISISALL


You know what sticks in MY craw? That "original sin" BS. We all carry it?
Any book says a baby is a sinner is patent crap in MY book.
And that book says a child dies as a baby goes straight to Heaven? That could be interpreted to say the best thing you can do for a baby is kill it; it doesn't have to live on this dirty mortal coil, and it goes to the sweet spot immediately.
What kind of nonsense is that?

Original sin. Huh. Original nonsense is what it is.
Tell ya what- I'll take a time machine, go back and smack that effin' apple outta Eve's mouth, that'll mess up things for the Military Industrial Complex, eh?

And F*CK Beelzebub. He's a punk. OOoooooh, gonna torture me in Hell, is he? With no BODY??? Gonna make me THINK I have nerve endings to fry? I'm his worst f*cking nightmare, I am. Or at least a potential irritant.

Did I offend anyone yet?

Wanna make fun of Buddha & see how upset I DON'T become?

I'm just a fly in the ointment, a monkey in the wrench, and for your information, God thinks I am very funny.


The laughing Chrisisall

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Saturday, June 27, 2009 1:53 PM

PIZMOBEACH

... fully loaded, safety off...


Quote:
Originally posted by OPPYH:
I've done a ton of research into it. Life after death DOES exist. It may be a different realm for your spirit, but when you die, it happens whether you'd like it to or not. Our minds can't in their physical state comprehend this, but as we cross over to the spirit realm, you will.

Heaven is a place of eternal love, peace, and happiness. No war, bickering, or hate.
How in the world would that be a bad thing?


Sounds like what they tell suicide bombers.

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Saturday, June 27, 2009 2:24 PM

CHRISISALL


Quote:
Originally posted by pizmobeach:
Quote:
Originally posted by OPPYH:

Heaven is a place of eternal love, peace, and happiness. No war, bickering, or hate.
How in the world would that be a bad thing?


Sounds like what they tell suicide bombers.
I think suicide bombers get the whole "endless virgins" thing attached to it.
But why would they fall for it anyway? Who needs sex without a body? Freakin' morons.


The culturally insensitive Chrisisall

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Saturday, June 27, 2009 2:46 PM

HKCAVALIER


Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
Tell ya what- I'll take a time machine, go back and smack that effin' apple outta Eve's mouth, that'll mess up things for the Military Industrial Complex, eh?
Philip Pullman wrote a series of books on this very subject. If you haven't read His Dark Materials yet, you would LUH-UH-OVE it!

HKCavalier

Hey, hey, hey, don't be mean. We don't have to be mean, because, remember, no matter where you go, there you are.

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Saturday, June 27, 2009 3:09 PM

CHRISISALL


Thanks HK!


The laughing Chrisisall

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Saturday, June 27, 2009 4:35 PM

GEEZER

Keep the Shiny side up


Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
I mean, it never ends, does it?


Absent proof (and I mean real proof, not some mumbo-jumbo faith-based stuff) the odds are that it does just end.

Comforting, isn't it?

"Keep the Shiny side up"

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Saturday, June 27, 2009 4:43 PM

CHRISISALL


Quote:
Originally posted by Geezer:
Absent proof (and I mean real proof, not some mumbo-jumbo faith-based stuff) the odds are that it does just end.

Comforting, isn't it?

Sorry Geeze, I once had a past life flash of being a lowly Chinese foot soldier, towing a battering ram in the rain wearing muddy boots full of holes- I firmly believe that the circle is endless- nothingness would be entirely too easy.


The laughing Chrisisall

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Saturday, June 27, 2009 11:42 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


I suppose we could always think of RIP as "Recycling In Progress". 'Cause that's what I'M gonna do when I'm dead: push up daisies. Possibly toadstools. Or maybe feed some wild boars, as rappy suggested.

----------------------
We should have strapped him into a glider, filled it nose heavy w/ explosives, and dropped his Allah lovin' ass into a large, empty field. After which, release wild boars into the area so they could make good use of his remains. Now THAT's justice.- rappy

Yeah, that's what Sheikh Issa said. Seems you both have a lot in common.- signy

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Sunday, June 28, 2009 2:38 AM

FREMDFIRMA


Erm, unfortunately imma not be around so much as Project Sonata has rumbled into motion, but here's a good mental mangle on the way out for the nonce...

What if the afterlife you wind up in, is the one most suited to your lifestyle and conduct regardless of what your actual beliefs ARE, and even whether you have any or not ?

That'd be damn funny to think about.

Especially when some really racist Astaru I know make it to Valhalla and immediately get capped via driveby courtesy of the Curtiss Bay Posse.

I'd pay good money to see that.

-F

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Sunday, June 28, 2009 5:14 AM

CHRISISALL


Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
I suppose we could always think of RIP as "Recycling In Progress".
That's classic.



The laughing Chrisisall

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Sunday, June 28, 2009 5:23 AM

OPPYH


Quote:
Originally posted by pizmobeach:
Quote:
Originally posted by OPPYH:
I've done a ton of research into it. Life after death DOES exist. It may be a different realm for your spirit, but when you die, it happens whether you'd like it to or not. Our minds can't in their physical state comprehend this, but as we cross over to the spirit realm, you will.

Heaven is a place of eternal love, peace, and happiness. No war, bickering, or hate.
How in the world would that be a bad thing?


Sounds like what they tell suicide bombers.
Yeah, right. Before attacking what I believe, why don't you tell me what you believe. Keep the snide comments to yourself.

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Sunday, June 28, 2009 5:24 AM

OPPYH


Quote:
Originally posted by Geezer:
Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
I mean, it never ends, does it?


Absent proof (and I mean real proof, not some mumbo-jumbo faith-based stuff) the odds are that it does just end.

Comforting, isn't it?



Well, if that's the case then it would be just like going to sleep forever. We wouldn't know at any rate, so it wouldn't be a big deal.

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Sunday, June 28, 2009 5:31 AM

OPPYH


Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
Quote:
Originally posted by OPPYH:
Why so bitter?
Not a bit of it.
Just bein' my old provocative self is all.
Quote:


Heaven is a place of eternal love, peace, and happiness. No war, bickering, or hate.
How in the world would that be a bad thing?
I look to bored my many more of your sermons before you slip.
Quote:
Do you believe Chrisisall?
In Buddah? Yep.
Jesus Christ? He was definitely cool.
A dear & fluffy Lord? That's a long wait for a train don't come. Lessin' you realize that the 'Verse is all one.



So you're certainly a spiritual person.

Like it's already been said, religion is a tricky thing. Everyone thinks THEIR religion is the RIGHT religion. Never thought that way myself. If you have faith in your religion, or beliefs then that's what you will be rewarded with in the afterlife.

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Sunday, June 28, 2009 5:35 AM

CHRISISALL


Quote:
Originally posted by OPPYH:

Well, if that's the case then it would be just like going to sleep forever.
Nope. That would be like having to pay no taxes- it could never happen.
The fact that we exist now means at some point we make a choice, and that suggests a cycle, with a kind of endlessness to it.
Nothing that was ever something disappears- it's the law of conservation of energy if ya wanna get technical.


The laughing Chrisisall

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Sunday, June 28, 2009 5:43 AM

CRUITHNE3753


Born. Live. Die. If you're lucky, you get to pass on a few chromosomes. End of.

_____
CLICHED MEME IS CLICHED

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Sunday, June 28, 2009 5:51 AM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
Quote:
Originally posted by OPPYH:

Well, if that's the case then it would be just like going to sleep forever.
Nope. That would be like having to pay no taxes- it could never happen.
The fact that we exist now means at some point we make a choice, and that suggests a cycle, with a kind of endlessness to it.
Nothing that was ever something disappears- it's the law of conservation of energy if ya wanna get technical.


The laughing Chrisisall


There's something to that. Energy doesn't dissipate, it just changes form, and all that jazz. I find it unlikely that your energy will retain enough coherence to be aware of itself, or its past forms, but I'm not saying it's impossible. Hell, I have a recurring dream of drowning as a child, after falling off a ferry on the way from Mackinac Island in the 1920s, so what do I know?

I'm comforted by the fact that my energy will continue to be a force in the universe long after I'm gone. In my more spiritual moments, I delude myself that I'll have some consciousness of it, but my rational mind disagrees. But even if I'm never able to park myself above a spiral galaxy for a few million years to watch it move and evolve, I can still dream about it...

Mike

Build a man a fire and he'll be warm for a day...
Set a man on fire and he'll be warm for the rest of his life.


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Sunday, June 28, 2009 5:51 AM

CHRISISALL


Quote:
Originally posted by OPPYH:
Everyone thinks THEIR religion is the RIGHT religion.
I believe my religion to be right*.




*All beliefs subject to change without notice.


The laughing Chrisisall

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Sunday, June 28, 2009 6:36 AM

CHRISISALL


Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko:

I find it unlikely that your energy will retain enough coherence to be aware of itself
Think of it as your "soul" being like a handful of water snatched from a stream, then poured back in. Can you ever snatch that same handful back out? Unlikely. But you may get bits of it again, enough to experience flashes of past existences.


The laughing Chrisisall

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Sunday, June 28, 2009 6:55 AM

CHRISISALL


Quote:
Originally posted by Cruithne3753:
Born. Live. Die. If you're lucky, you get to pass on a few chromosomes. End of.


Predictably concrete.

You're goin' to a Chinese Hell (Chinese got a lot of Hells).



The laughing Chrisisall

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Sunday, June 28, 2009 7:39 AM

RIPWASH


If I know Chris . . . and I think I have an inkling for how his mind works here and there . . . this thread was started with a desire for mental fisticuffs.

I agree with Oppyh. This is all subjective depending on your own core personal and religious beliefs. On one side of the spectrum there are folks like Kwicko and Signym who have no belief in any religion and therefore think that the end is more or less the end. Period. End of discussion. On the other end, folk like myself believe in a God of the universe, that he sent Jesus to die for our sins and if we put our trust and faith in him we will have eternal life. And as such that "rest in peace" does mean a peace that goes beyond human understanding. There's no telling what we might do in Heaven for all eternity. I'd like to think of it as going to concerts and listening to fantastic music, seeing wonderous works of art, having in-depth discussions on every subject imaginable, seeing some simply amazing sports games. It goes on and on. And the peace is that you're safe, among loved ones and people who genuinely care about each other and worshiping the One who made it all possible. We might not be so bored listening to God talk about himself and what his plans were/are/will be.

But that's just me.

*********************************************

"It's okay! I'm a leaf on the wind!!!"
"What does that mean?!?!?!"

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Sunday, June 28, 2009 7:49 AM

CHRISISALL


Quote:
Originally posted by RIPWash:
a God of the universe, that he sent Jesus to die for our sins
I don't mean to offend (okay, so maybe I do ), but that is the most convoluted plot device ever. He creates everything, then allows sin into the mix, then creates & transports a sperm into Mary, has the son, & then makes sure he's crucified for the sins of man THAT HE SET UP IN THE FIRST PLACE!?!?!?!?!?!
In the cosmic publishing house, that submission would go right into the "reject" pile.


The laughing Chrisisall

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Sunday, June 28, 2009 7:56 AM

CHRISISALL


Quote:
Originally posted by OPPYH:
If you have faith in your religion, or beliefs then that's what you will be rewarded with in the afterlife.
So, there IS hope of a re-ward?


The Jayne-like Chrisisall

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Sunday, June 28, 2009 9:15 AM

HKCAVALIER


Quote:
Originally posted by RIPWash:
There's no telling what we might do in Heaven for all eternity. I'd like to think of it as going to concerts and listening to fantastic music, seeing wonderous works of art, having in-depth discussions on every subject imaginable, seeing some simply amazing sports games. It goes on and on.
Hey RIPWash, y'know, since we're here, I'd like to ask you a serious question. The thing that gets me about your scenario is that you live maybe--MAYBE--90 some odd years (if you're very lucky) and whatever the heck you managed to figure out in your "hour upon the stage," determines how you will spend the REST OF ETERNITY.

Does that seem right to you?

Seems a little like getting a pop quiz on the first day of your freshman year that determines your graduate school grade and pay rate for the rest of your dang life--only, it's much worse than that, because "the rest of your life" is standing in for the unfathomable infinitude of eternity here. If life could be figured out in 90 years, don't you think that after all the human race's time on the planet (still less than a blink of an eye when compared to eternity) we as a species would be a little farther along?

Or do you think it's all as simple as "believeth on Him and ye shall be saved?" Everything else: sex, war, art, love, human trafficking, suicide bombers, child rearing, physiology, rape and incest all fall in line when you give it over to Jesus? I seriously don't mean to be insulting, but I kinda find the "christian answer" to be insulting in itself, simplistic and intrinsically evasive.

One thing I have learned, that I'm pretty dang sure of, is that living one's life according to a mechanism of punishment and reward, having any truck at all with these pernicious illusions past the age of 10, keeps us childish, keeps us dependent, keeps us enslaved, our minds closed to what life truly has to offer. I'm not here, and I'm pretty sure neither are you, to follow some rule book and get a gold star at the end of my days for being a good boy.

I mean, the very first chapter of your own Holy Bible shows that being good and following the rules is NOT what human life was ever going to be about. Trying to recapture that prelapsarian paradise through good deeds and happy thoughts seems to be nothing more than a retreat from reality, a retreat from the present, a retreat from history itself--a sort of "nya-nya-nya-I CAN'T HEAR YOU" on a cosmic scale.

Sorry if I burden you with my frustration, but my frustration is central to my question. Why in the world would a God set up His cosmos to so deeply frustrate those of us who think deeply and seek meaning?

HKCavalier

Hey, hey, hey, don't be mean. We don't have to be mean, because, remember, no matter where you go, there you are.

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Sunday, June 28, 2009 9:15 AM

ECGORDON

There's no place I can be since I found Serenity.


Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
Quote:
Originally posted by RIPWash:
a God of the universe, that he sent Jesus to die for our sins
I don't mean to offend (okay, so maybe I do ), but that is the most convoluted plot device ever. He creates everything, then allows sin into the mix, then creates & transports a sperm into Mary, has the son, & then makes sure he's crucified for the sins of man THAT HE SET UP IN THE FIRST PLACE!?!?!?!?!?!
In the cosmic publishing house, that submission would go right into the "reject" pile.


The laughing Chrisisall

I think Lazarus Long said it best:

"One man's theology is another man's belly laugh."

and:

"Men rarely (if ever) manage to dream up a god superior to themselves. Most gods have the manners and morals of a spoiled child."

as well as:

"There is no conclusive evidence of life after death. But there is no evidence of any sort against it. Soon enough you will know. So why fret about it?"



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Sunday, June 28, 2009 9:33 AM

LEOPARDFLAN


Agreed.

I also agree with the 'law of conservation applies to souls as well' theory (I think Chrisisall said it, though I'm not 100% sure about that)

(yes I do read these threads all the way- nice to see this one's still short enough not to have done a complete U-turn on the topic)

Just the two cents from an infrequent lurker, since personally I'm kinda fascinated by discussions on theology such as this and thought I'd contribute

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Sunday, June 28, 2009 11:01 AM

CHRISISALL


Quote:
Originally posted by HKCavalier:
Why in the world would a God set up His cosmos to so deeply frustrate those of us who think deeply and seek meaning?

Ummm... 'cause he has anger management issues...?




The laughing Chrisisall

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Sunday, June 28, 2009 11:07 AM

PIZMOBEACH

... fully loaded, safety off...


Quote:
Originally posted by OPPYH:
Yeah, right. Before attacking what I believe, why don't you tell me what you believe.


Sorry - the parallel just struck me and I thought there was something valuable in pointing out the similarity.

If you get a chance to read any Bedouin stories, or fables from the dessert - the Middle Eastern Dessert - you will see the same story telling themes and story mechanics that you find in our modern Bible. They are full of the same sense of larger than life characters and fantastical nature.

It's hard not to see the bible after that as a kind of Aesop's Fables of the Dessert - no disrespect, it just has a whole new feel to it.

Scifi movie music + Firefly dialogue clips, 24 hours a day - http://www.scifiradio.com Now available on your iPhone


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Sunday, June 28, 2009 11:45 AM

ECGORDON

There's no place I can be since I found Serenity.


Quote:
Originally posted by OPPYH:
Before attacking what I believe, why don't you tell me what you believe. Keep the snide comments to yourself.

Why is it necessary that we believe anything, especially when there will never be any proof? A belief in something doesn't make it truth. I can make it through life without a belief in an afterlife, or in anything else. If there is any purpose to life it has to be to question what that purpose is, but to expect definitive answers is to be naive.



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Sunday, June 28, 2009 2:54 PM

CHRISISALL


Quote:
Originally posted by ecgordon:

Why is it necessary that we believe anything

Ummm.. 'cause Book said we should?



The laughing Chrisisall

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Sunday, June 28, 2009 6:04 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:
I'm not here, and I'm pretty sure neither are you, to follow some rule book and get a gold star at the end of my days for being a good boy.


Sounds like you aim to misbehave...


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Sunday, June 28, 2009 6:14 PM

CHRISISALL


Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko:
Sounds like you aim to misbehave...


Misbehavin' can reserve a place for you in a special Hell...

where you get to watch Serenity for all eternity in a theatre where EVERYBODY talks during the film.




The laughing Chrisisall

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Sunday, June 28, 2009 6:54 PM

6IXSTRINGJACK


Quote:
Originally posted by ecgordon:
Quote:
Originally posted by OPPYH:
I've done a ton of research into it. Life after death DOES exist.

Pray tell, enlighten us if you can, oh Grasshopper!

Or rather don't bother, since what you will say is only what you believe, not what you know, as if anyone can know.




We don't know anything of the afterlife, and Science is not in the business of pursuing such answers.

So the question is, do we base our life on faith that there is something better when we leave, or do we base the way we live our lives thinking that there is nothing after death?

It's an answer that everyone must find for themselves, and if there is only one true answer to that question after we die..... prolly 99% of us got it wrong and we'll be Hell-kabobs in the aferlife.

My god is better than your good nyah!

"A government is a body of people, usually notably ungoverned." http://www.myspace.com/6ixstringjack

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Sunday, June 28, 2009 7:36 PM

CHRISISALL


Quote:
Originally posted by 6ixStringJack:
My god is better than your good
My good is better than your god, bitch.


The laughing Chrisisall

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Monday, June 29, 2009 1:57 AM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:
My god is better than your good nyah!


Wrong.

My karma ran over your dogma.

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Monday, June 29, 2009 2:45 AM

RIPWASH


Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
Quote:
Originally posted by RIPWash:
a God of the universe, that he sent Jesus to die for our sins
I don't mean to offend (okay, so maybe I do ), but that is the most convoluted plot device ever. He creates everything, then allows sin into the mix, then creates & transports a sperm into Mary, has the son, & then makes sure he's crucified for the sins of man THAT HE SET UP IN THE FIRST PLACE!?!?!?!?!?!
In the cosmic publishing house, that submission would go right into the "reject" pile.


The laughing Chrisisall


I expected nothing less from you, Chris.

There's all the stuff about free will that I left out of my scenario. And beleive me, I do NOT understand it all, don't claim to be an expert or a pastor or Biblical scholar by any stretch of the imagination. You can look at it like this: God allowed sin into the world in order to allow us to make a choice. Either accept him or accept sin. Think about it. You're a mad scientist and you create a clone, but you don't give that clone any capability of free thought. You only allow it to dote on you, worship you and only you, and love you with reckless abandon. That just might seem kind of boring. At least to me. But to create it with the ability to think for itself, make it's own decisions and do things for it so that it DECIDES to love you. THAT makes it a little more worth-while. IMHO.

Add to that plot device that even though people DON'T chose him right away, he provides them with a way to eventually come back to him. And that way is gut-wrenching in human terms. Why? Because he loves us despite it all. Much in the same way that you love your own son and would do anything for him. You may not like WHAT he does sometimes, but you still love him. You want to teach him painful lessons sometimes, but you still love him. He may make some bad decisions in the future, but you'll want to forgive him and provide any means necessary to come back to you . . . because you love him. And that, IMHO, is pretty amazing.

*********************************************

"It's okay! I'm a leaf on the wind!!!"
"What does that mean?!?!?!"

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Monday, June 29, 2009 3:29 AM

RIPWASH


Quote:
Originally posted by HKCavalier:
Hey RIPWash, y'know, since we're here, I'd like to ask you a serious question. The thing that gets me about your scenario is that you live maybe--MAYBE--90 some odd years (if you're very lucky) and whatever the heck you managed to figure out in your "hour upon the stage," determines how you will spend the REST OF ETERNITY.

Does that seem right to you?

Seems a little like getting a pop quiz on the first day of your freshman year that determines your graduate school grade and pay rate for the rest of your dang life--only, it's much worse than that, because "the rest of your life" is standing in for the unfathomable infinitude of eternity here. If life could be figured out in 90 years, don't you think that after all the human race's time on the planet (still less than a blink of an eye when compared to eternity) we as a species would be a little farther along?


To me it's more like making a decision AFTER you've been through graduate school and have been presented with a bunch of information upon which you then have to make a decision.

Now, I'm not saying that what I beleive makes perfect sense, because it doesn't. But that's where faith comes in. Because I don't know everything and I don't pretend to know what God is thinking or what his plans are. I have a faith that what I beleive is true. You can look at it this way. Everytime you sit in chair do you investigate it thoroughly? Do you inspect the screws, the joints, the welds, the cushion? All in order to ensure the fact that the chair will support you when you sit down? And if not, why? Because you have a faith that this chair was built to do what all chairs are supposed to do. Granted that's a simplistic way to explain it, but it gets the point across . . . hopefully.

Quote:
Or do you think it's all as simple as "believeth on Him and ye shall be saved?" Everything else: sex, war, art, love, human trafficking, suicide bombers, child rearing, physiology, rape and incest all fall in line when you give it over to Jesus? I seriously don't mean to be insulting, but I kinda find the "christian answer" to be insulting in itself, simplistic and intrinsically evasive.
No offense taken, HK. And I'm hesitant to answer in fear that I may give the "Christian answer" that you so despise. I certainly don't mean to offend anyone here either and I definately don't want the expressing of my views or opinions here taken as my forcing them on you or anyone else.

That being said, lemme try in my humble way to explain what I mean. The believing in him and being saved is basically all it sounds like it is and is basically that simple. The fact that "sin" continues in the world around you, doesn't make your salvation any less real. They won't fall in line just because YOU make a personal decision. All the other people in those scenarios have to make the same decision you make in order for that to happen. It's a decision YOU have to make and have faith in no matter what goes on in the world around you. Because God didn't promise you'll be happy everything will be sunshine and lollipops while you're still here on earth. Things may get tough, but it's how you deal with those times that reflects those inner beliefs. Does that make sense?

Quote:
One thing I have learned, that I'm pretty dang sure of, is that living one's life according to a mechanism of punishment and reward, having any truck at all with these pernicious illusions past the age of 10, keeps us childish, keeps us dependent, keeps us enslaved, our minds closed to what life truly has to offer. I'm not here, and I'm pretty sure neither are you, to follow some rule book and get a gold star at the end of my days for being a good boy.
I don't look at it as a life of how you described it. I'm to do my best to do what God tells me to do in the Bible, but He also understands that I'm not perfect and never will be. So it's not so much, "DO THIS OR ELSE!" It's more, "Please do your best to follow these rules. It won't be easy and I understand that. I'll give you a guide and it's up to you to follow or not. But I may give you little nudges here and there to set you on the right path again. And those nudges may not seem comfortable to you at the time." Like I said to Chris above. He may "punish" or teach us a lesson, but don't parents also do that to their kids? Aren't we also given rules and regulations to live by here on earth imposed by human authorities? Don't you already live your life to "do good" in order to earn some type of merit (i.e. a paycheck, a diploma, etc.)?

Quote:
I mean, the very first chapter of your own Holy Bible shows that being good and following the rules is NOT what human life was ever going to be about. Trying to recapture that prelapsarian paradise through good deeds and happy thoughts seems to be nothing more than a retreat from reality, a retreat from the present, a retreat from history itself--a sort of "nya-nya-nya-I CAN'T HEAR YOU" on a cosmic scale.
I don't think that Christianity is an attempt to regain Eden, if that is, indeed, what you're trying to say. What it is, IMHO, is an attempt to glorify God and we do that by being good to others and doing our best to present Him to others. It's not "I'd better do good deeds in order to look good in God's eyes" because, quite frankly, He can see right through that hypocrisy. We (Christians) need to do good deeds BECAUSE we love Him.

Quote:
Sorry if I burden you with my frustration, but my frustration is central to my question. Why in the world would a God set up His cosmos to so deeply frustrate those of us who think deeply and seek meaning?
No apologies needed, though I feel I need to apologize in return if I seem flippant or giving stock "Christian" answers. That's not my intent.

What you're saying here is something that may require another stock "Christian" answer. And that is . . . Faith. There will be a lot of things in this world that may not make sense at all. I have a good Christian friend who is very analytical and scientific in his thinking and reasoning and he does struggle with a great many things about his faith sometimes. But it all comes down to the "fact" that he knows in his heart that what the Bible says is true and he has a faith that God is all-knowing, all-powerful and has plans that we can not even begin to comprehend and that perhaps it's not really our place to ask why certain things are the way they are.

I wish I could do more to help you understand. I feel like it's not coming across clearly. But since you mentioned Genesis, I would like to invite you and others to take a look at this website www.answersingenesis.org as that may be able to answer some questions you have. I'm no scholar on the subject, but these folks are

Again, no offense is intended by my posts, folks, so please don't take it as such. But hey . . . Chris started this controversial thread anyway . . . !!! He had to know this kind of thing was comin'.

*********************************************

"It's okay! I'm a leaf on the wind!!!"
"What does that mean?!?!?!"

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Monday, June 29, 2009 5:03 AM

CHRISISALL


Quote:
Originally posted by RIPWash:
Again, no offense is intended by my posts, folks, so please don't take it as such. But hey . . . Chris started this controversial thread anyway . . . !!! He had to know this kind of thing was comin'.

Oh, man, go ahead & offend away!

Truth is, on this particular subject, I can't BE offended. Someone could say to me, " There is no form of reincarnation, and Buddha was just some lazy fat guy, and you're an idiot if you believe that s**t", and I wouldn't care too much, except that it might be a fun insult exchange opportunity.


The laughing Chrisisall

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Monday, June 29, 2009 5:18 AM

CHRISISALL


Quote:
Originally posted by RIPWash:
God allowed sin into the world in order to allow us to make a choice.
That makes him kind of a tease, don't it?
Quote:
Think about it. You're a mad scientist and you create a clone, but you don't give that clone any capability of free thought. You only allow it to dote on you, worship you and only you, and love you with reckless abandon.
Are you likening God to a mad scientist? Watch it, buddy.
Quote:


You want to teach him painful lessons sometimes, but you still love him. He may make some bad decisions in the future, but you'll want to forgive him and provide any means necessary to come back to you . . . because you love him. And that, IMHO, is pretty amazing.

If I could give my Son enlightenment far in excess of what little I have, I would. And I'm no God.


The laughing Chrisisall

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Monday, June 29, 2009 5:21 AM

RIPWASH


I'm reminded of a quote from a scene near the ending of "Blast from the Past."
"Why? I don't understand."
"And I'm asking you to trust me. Without understanding why."
"Well, in that case, of course."

*********************************************

"It's okay! I'm a leaf on the wind!!!"
"What does that mean?!?!?!"

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Monday, June 29, 2009 5:32 AM

RIPWASH


Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
If I could give my Son enlightenment far in excess of what little I have, I would. And I'm no God.


But if God were to do that, it might be a little like downloading all the information from a supercomputer at NASA into a single Atari 800.

A) The two systems just don't mesh
B) If you COULD get it to work, the Atari 800 would more than likely explode

*********************************************

"It's okay! I'm a leaf on the wind!!!"
"What does that mean?!?!?!"

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Monday, June 29, 2009 5:40 AM

CHRISISALL


Quote:
Originally posted by RIPWash:
[
But if God were to do that, it might be a little like downloading all the information from a supercomputer at NASA into a single Atari 800.

Come now, God can do ANYTHING. He could give us all upgrades.

In fact, God KNOWS everything, so the game of who gets the most souls with Satan must be spoiled.


The laughing Chrisisall

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