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Originally posted by chrisisall:
The Flying Spaghetti Monster is here with us now.

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Originally posted by antimason:
you mock us, for believing in an intelligent designer.. so where did we come from?

primates? and what did they evolve from? show me a fossil of its evolutionary predecessor..

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Originally posted by Kwicko:

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Originally posted by antimason:
you mock us, for believing in an intelligent designer.. so where did we come from?

primates? and what did they evolve from? show me a fossil of its evolutionary predecessor..

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Now show me a fossil of your "intelligent designer".

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Originally posted by antimason:
its quite a concept, that the undirected, chaotic EXPLOSION of the big bang, could create the incomprehensible ORDER and design of the universe. kind of like expecting the nuke dropped on hiroshima to result in a much more improved and ordered landscape

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"I consider that our present sufferings are not worth comparing with the glory that will be revealed in us. The creation waits in eager expectation for the sons of God to be revealed. For the creation was subjected to frustration, not by its own choice, but by the will of the one who subjected it, in hope that the creation itself will be liberated from its bondage to decay and brought into the glorious freedom of the children of God.
We know that the whole creation has been groaning as in the pains of childbirth right up to the present time. Not only so, but we ourselves, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait eagerly for our adoption as sons, the redemption of our bodies. Romans 8:18-23 "

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Originally posted by antimason:
its quite a concept, that the undirected, chaotic EXPLOSION of the big bang, could create the incomprehensible ORDER and design of the universe.

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Originally posted by SergeantX:

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Originally posted by antimason:
its quite a concept, that the undirected, chaotic EXPLOSION of the big bang, could create the incomprehensible ORDER and design of the universe.

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Tell me about it. When you first see it, when you begin to understand how it could actually happen - it's friggin' amazing! Sublimely beautiful to boot.

SergeantX

"It's a cold and it's a broken hallelujah"

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Originally posted by Bytemite:
I like quantum mechanics, because it makes singularities impossible.

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Originally posted by Kwicko:
Now show me a fossil of your "intelligent designer". Heck, show me a fossil of your baby Jesus!

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Originally posted by piratenews:
The correct way to pray: "[Insert deity name], please teach me how to solve [insert problem here]." Not "gimme gimme gimme".

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Originally posted by Bytemite:
I'm willing to concede that however the universe may have started, it's a heckuva neat place.

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Originally posted by Hero:

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Originally posted by Kwicko:
Now show me a fossil of your "intelligent designer". Heck, show me a fossil of your baby Jesus!

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Can't...they're both still alive.

(Laughs cause Kwicko's going to hell...in a handbasket made of dinosaur bones.)

H

"Hero. I have come to respect you"- Chrisisall, 2009.

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Originally posted by citizen:

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Originally posted by Bytemite:
I like quantum mechanics, because it makes singularities impossible.

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I don't think it does. And if it did that would be fairly compelling evidence that QM is wrong.

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Originally posted by Bytemite:
The information of the particle is lost, of course, you don't get whole atoms, but rather protons, neutrons, electrons, or antiprotons, antineutrons, and positrons. And you often get emissions in matter/anti-matter virtual pairs that quickly annihilate each other.

A blackhole is supposed to be a singularity, and yet, if there is uncertainty whether the infinite amount of mass that's in that infinitely small space is IN that infinitely small space, then it's not quite a singularity, is it?

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Originally posted by antimason:
its quite a concept, that the undirected, chaotic EXPLOSION of the big bang, could create the incomprehensible ORDER and design of the universe.

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kind of like expecting the nuke dropped on hiroshima to result in a much more improved and ordered landscape

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Originally posted by citizen:
You seem to be missing a vital point. The level of uncertainty is based on the Particles wavelength, which diminishes with mass. Black Holes are governed by Quantum Mechanical effects at the Singularity (at least in theory, it's not like anyone has gone into one to check), but they also have rather a lot of mass.

The Wavelength of an electron is barely longer than it's circumference, which is why they tend to act more like particles than waves most of the time. A Black Hole has infinite mass, therefore an infinitely short wavelength, so the level of uncertainty is lower. In fact it's probably more likely that your body will Quantum tunnel through a brick wall than a Black Hole will Quantum Tunnel to a new state.

The equation to find a particles wavelength is De Broglie's wavelength:
λ = h/m*u

Where:
λ is the Wavelength
h is Plancks constant
m is the particles mass
and u is the particles speed

The result of dividing any number by infinity should be self evident.

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And the fact remains, if you fuzz the dimensions of a point in three-dimensional space, it's no longer a point. You can still have a very high near infinite density, but a black hole doesn't have to have a singularity to define it so long as it's gravitational pull is still strong enough to prevent light from escaping.

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Singularities signify a breakdown in general relativity, and are best addressed by quantum mechanics, where it is suggested that the singularities are not, in fact, singularities.

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Originally posted by antimason:
its quite a concept, that the undirected, chaotic EXPLOSION of the big bang, could create the incomprehensible ORDER and design of the universe.

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Originally posted by Kwicko:
That's very typical of ideology, and the complete antithesis of scientific inquiry.

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Originally posted by Kwicko:
Thing is, I don't see ANY "order" or "design" to the universe. The universe has about as much order and design as a cloud has a face. If you're looking to see it as ordered, you'll no doubt find it so, simply by ignoring any data that don't fit your preconceived conclusion. That's very typical of ideology, and the complete antithesis of scientific inquiry.

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Originally posted by Kwicko:
Thing is, I don't see ANY "order" or "design" to the universe.

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Originally posted by citizen:
The lie is comparing the order of London streets to those of a planned city.

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You're misinterpreting what's meant about not being sure of it's location. A particle has a specific location, we just don't know where that is, so we think of it as a 'probability cloud'.

But nevertheless, a singularities mass is infinite, that means that it doesn't form a probability cloud because it's wave length is infinitely small. So it does exist within a finite point.

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Originally posted by Hero:

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Originally posted by Kwicko:
Thing is, I don't see ANY "order" or "design" to the universe.

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Ignore the platypus and you'll see it all make sense for you.

"...egg-laying, venomous, duck-billed, beaver-tailed, otter-footed mammal"
H

"Hero. I have come to respect you"- Chrisisall, 2009.

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Originally posted by citizen:

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Originally posted by Kwicko:
Thing is, I don't see ANY "order" or "design" to the universe. The universe has about as much order and design as a cloud has a face. If you're looking to see it as ordered, you'll no doubt find it so, simply by ignoring any data that don't fit your preconceived conclusion. That's very typical of ideology, and the complete antithesis of scientific inquiry.

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There's order in the universe, the same as there's order in the arrangements of London Streets. The lie is comparing the order of London streets to those of a planned city. That is the order of things disparately finding equilibrium, and someone actually artificially creating it.

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Originally posted by Bytemite:
A singularity's DENSITY is infinite, not it's mass. It's not the mass part of the situation you're proposing that's causing the singularity, it's the VOLUME. A point has no volume. A point is a singularity.

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Originally posted by Bytemite:
If mass inside of a point is not in fact within the point because of quantum mechanical processes...

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Originally posted by Bytemite:
And I still think you're misinterpretting that equation of yours. The particles in question in the blackhole are not the sum mass of the black hole, but in this case would be whatever particles are emitted.

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Originally posted by Bytemite:
No one knows whether particles in a black hole have a wavelength, but the emitted ones do.

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Originally posted by Bytemite:
Yes, and I just said no one knows whether particles in a BLACK HOLE have a wave length... Which you have been arguing that they don't.

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Originally posted by Bytemite:
I'm arguing that they do. Like I edited up above... If you plug a non-infinite number into the mass for that equation of yours, even if it's a BIG number like 3 solar masses (depending on HOW that equation is used, I don't have the context here), then the number is not zero. Only an infinite mass would make for zero wavelength.

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Originally posted by Bytemite:
Actually, I got this from Stephen Hawkings... He makes a similar argument in regards to the Big Bang in The Universe in a Nutshell, which is why I brought this up... And why I was rambling with giddy abandon about "expansion and collapse" earlier in the thread.

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Yang-Mills theory is an extension of Maxwell theory that describes interactions in two other forces called the weak and strong nuclear forces. However, ground state fluctuations have a much more serious effect in a quantum theory of gravity. Again, each wavelength would have a ground state energy. Since there is no limit to how short the wavelengths of the Maxwell field can be, there are an infinite number of different wavelengths in any region of spacetime and an infinite amount of ground state energy. Because energy density is, like matter, a source of gravity, this infinite energy density ought to mean there is enough gravitational attraction in the universe to curl spacetime into a single point, which obviously hasn’t happened.
~The Universe in a Nutshell, page 46.

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