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Originally posted by Kwicko:
I *DO* say it mockingly, much as you treat thousands of dead in Iraq as a laughing matter.

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Originally posted by BigDamnNobody:

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Originally posted by Kwicko:
I *DO* say it mockingly, much as you treat thousands of dead in Iraq as a laughing matter.

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Dorothy, Tin-man, and the lion called, they want their strawman back.

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Originally posted by antimason:
the free market didnt create those loop-holes, government regulation did. and i suppose you blame capitalism on the economies failings?

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Originally posted by RIPWash:
But what you're telling me is that: your son never, ever threw a tantrum; never took a toy from another child that wasn't his during playtime; never NOT wanted to share his toys with someone else, never lied, etc.

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Originally posted by ElvisChrist:

It was DE-regulation created those loop-holes.

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Originally posted by BigDamnNobody:

Dorothy, Tin-man, and the lion called, they want

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Of course he's had his moody moments, but then I guess you argument could logically be extended to chimps that take stuff from each other or fight, or lion cubs that bite their moms- must be that original sin taking hold there too, eh?
When oh when will you drop all that God s**t, and accept the Flying Spaghetti Monster as your one & only true master???

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Originally posted by chrisisall:

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Originally posted by RIPWash:
But what you're telling me is that: your son never, ever threw a tantrum; never took a toy from another child that wasn't his during playtime; never NOT wanted to share his toys with someone else, never lied, etc.

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Of course he's had his moody moments, but then I guess you argument could logically be extended to chimps that take stuff from each other or fight, or lion cubs that bite their moms- must be that original sin taking hold there too, eh?
When oh when will you drop all that God s**t, and accept the Flying Spaghetti Monster as your one & only true master???


The laughing Chrisisall[/QUOTE

Have YOU been touched by his noodly appendage?

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Originally posted by RIPWash:
And FSM will only gain my respect when he sends his one and only begotten Lasagna to die on my plate for all mankind. Gosh. Brush up on your Pasta Verse will ya?

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Originally posted by ElvisChrist:
Saviory and sacrilicious.

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Originally posted by RIPWash:

Well, yah! Monkeys are pure evil. Didn't you know that?

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Originally posted by RIPWash:

Stupid Neanderthals....

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Originally posted by RIPWash:
VICTORY!!!!

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“The A.M.A. does not believe that creating a public health insurance option for non-disabled individuals under age 65 is the best way to expand health insurance coverage and lower costs. The introduction of a new public plan threatens to restrict patient choice by driving out private insurers, which currently provide coverage for nearly 70 percent of Americans.”

If private insurers are pushed out of the market, the group said, “the corresponding surge in public plan participation would likely lead to an explosion of costs that would need to be absorbed by taxpayers.”

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Originally posted by antimason:
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/06/11/us/politics/11health.html?_r=1

just another side note on Obamacare, the American Medical Association came out against it, saying

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“The A.M.A. does not believe that creating a public health insurance option for non-disabled individuals under age 65 is the best way to expand health insurance coverage and lower costs. The introduction of a new public plan threatens to restrict patient choice by driving out private insurers, which currently provide coverage for nearly 70 percent of Americans.”

If private insurers are pushed out of the market, the group said, “the corresponding surge in public plan participation would likely lead to an explosion of costs that would need to be absorbed by taxpayers.”

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but then, what would they know

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posted by Chrisisall-

LOL. Okay, but that still doesn't address my point- is every negative impulse demonstrated by a sentient creature the result of original sin, or is that behaviour somehow "different" when manifested by man?

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Originally posted by Kwicko:

What WOULD they know? You DO know that the AMA is just a lobbying group, right? They're nothing more than a special interest group, with their own agenda to push - and that agenda can be summed up in three words: Money, money, MONEY!

The AMA represents something less than 20% of doctors, by the way. And large portions of their "funding" actually come from the big pharmaceutical companies, who also have a vested (monied) interest in keeping their golden goose laying eggs.

Didn't the AMA used to tout the health benefits of cigarettes, while they were being backed with funding from big tobacco? What would they know, indeed...

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Originally posted by Kwicko:
What WOULD they know? You DO know that the AMA is just a lobbying group, right? They're nothing more than a special interest group, with their own agenda to push - and that agenda can be summed up in three words: Money, money, MONEY

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And large portions of their "funding" actually come from the big pharmaceutical companies, who also have a vested (monied) interest in keeping their golden goose laying eggs.

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regardlless, its common knowledge that a public option will squeeze out private insurers, no one involved in the debate is disputing that

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so who funds the public option? the taxpayer.

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think about it.. right now, an individual chooses his insurer, and pays for it out of his own pocket.

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under your proposal, the individual(taxpayer) is forced to pay a tax on a public option, REGARDLESS of whether he already has an existing private plan! its ridiculous!

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and how will we fund it? revenue to the GOVT is contracting, because we're already overtaxed and falling deeper by the day into depression. so what.. we'll just let the printing presses run constantly to compensate for a lack of funding? then, not only will we be over taxed, we'll create even more inflation.

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and look it up, there are 20-30 million illegals already in this country, without the incentive of so-called "free" healthcare. is that somehow a joke to you? do you deny that we will subsidize the healthcare of non tax paying illegals?

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do you know why the greatest doctors and surgeons in the world come here?

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because they can make A PROFIT! do you understand what will happen when you take away their incentive to excel? we'll get marginalized and compromised healthcare

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oh no! the evil boogey man, big-pharma! where would medicine be, without the advancement of American pharma. discovery?

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but then, a consistent liberal WOULD want to revert us back to the 19th century. thats the energy policy, why not our healthcare policies as well

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I already pay tons of money in taxes and fees for things I don't use. I pay property tax to fund the schools, and I have no kids. I pay taxes to fund the police and fire departments, when I have never had need to call them. A big chunk of my tax dollars goes to fund a military I have no use for. I have to do this REGARDLESS of whether I need them or not. Frankly, I'd rather pay tax money to go to health care, because the odds are incredibly high that one day I *WILL* actually need a doctor.

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Taxes for schools - I got kids so I don't mind payin', but still it's in EVERYONES best interest that kids in their communities get a good education. Dontchathink?

Taxes for police and fire dept. - I kinda agree with you here, but it's almost like insurance. Right? You sure as heck HOPE you don't need either one, but by golly you're sure gonna want one when somebody is holding up a bank you may be in or if your house catches fire. Sure would be a b**ch if your house did catch fire and the fire department had to tell you, "Sorry mister, but you don't fund us. We're not gonna put out the fire that's engulfing your house."

Taxes for military - same thing, really. You sure hope you don't need 'em to defend your country, but if you ever do, they'll be there. Heck they may have been doing things covertly that you're not even aware of that saved your butt (or mine) once or twice.

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Originally posted by Kwicko:
Why is healthcare different than education, fire protection, or national defense? Do you not agree that disease can spread like fire? Do you not agree that an unhealthy nation is one that finds itself weaker?

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Originally posted by Kwicko:


The ONLY people "involved in the debate" who are making that ridiculous claim are you and the big insurance executives.

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Originally posted by Kwicko:
That's me trying to make a point, and doing so "in the voice of" those who decry universal healthcare. "Why should *I* pay so someone ELSE can have healthcare?" It's me asking, why should *I* pay for someone else's kids to go to school? Why should *I* pay for someone who's too stupid to not smoke in bed? Why should *I* pay for someone who didn't learn how to defend themselves?

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The answer, of course, is the same one that applies to why there should be universal healthcare: it makes us ALL safer.

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Universal public education makes us all smarter than if we had no such thing. Hell, if anything I want public education EXPANDED, and I'd be happy to pay more taxes to fund it.

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I'm still a bit of a starry-eyed optimist, and I still believe that there's nothing this nation can't do if we as a people put our minds to it. And that includes providing for our own health, in the same way we provide for our safety and protection in other areas.

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Originally posted by Kwicko:

The idea is that, if you're sick, you go to a doctor, and it's covered. Seems simple, but so many can't seem to grasp the concept, or are dead-set on lying about the intent (I'm lookin' at you, Anti).

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By the way, AntiMason:

Will you do away with MediCare and MedicAid? Will you do away with ALL social welfare programs, including farm subsidies and corporate tax breaks? They're all ways of using our tax dollars to do things we might not necessarily support, after all.

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Will you do away with public education? I know you say you want a taxpayer-paid voucher to send your kids to private school; I say if you have the power of your convictions (Less taxes! More private enterprise! More profit for corporations!), man up and send your kids to private school on your own damn dime.

Don't use MY tax money to pay for it, since you don't want YOUR tax money to pay for healthcare for others.

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Hey, it wasn't ME who had the kids; it was you. Take responsibility for them. If you can't afford to pay for their schooling, maybe you should have thought about that before you bred.

That's how you come across when you talk about healthcare. Is that how you intend to sound?

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you are kidding right? we throw hundreds of billions of dollars at the public school system, only to get ever more increasingly stupid and dumbed down kids. maybe instead, we should expand competition, so future generations have a chance at independant and critical thought

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Originally posted by Kwicko:


You're contradicting yourself, and frankly you're starting to look desperate.

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retaining your right to choose a private insurer

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Originally posted by antimason:
even indexed for inflation, the quality of life has diminished rapidly.. and in my estimation, big government is almost solely to blame.

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Originally posted by chrisisall:
I hereby nominate Antimason for the position of Angry Monkey!

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Originally posted by Kwicko:

You're contradicting yourself, and frankly you're starting to look desperate. Just above you were arguing that the best doctors and medical students want to come HERE to the U.S. because our system is so good. So somehow, while we're able to turn out the best doctors in the world (arguably), it's not by dint of anything to do with education. Must be something in the water, huh?

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As for all the "liberals" spending like crazy, I can only assume you're talking about rabid spend-crazy liberals like George W. Bush - who more than doubled the national debt, ran us over $1 trillion into NEW deficit spending on his way out the door in his last few months in office -

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and Ronald W. Reagan, who again more than doubled our national debt and lived for deficit spending. Each of these men spent far more than anyone before them; first Reagan, and then Dubya, who felt he had to more than double Reagan's ruinous spending in order to secure his place in history.

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Are these the liberals you're speaking of? The "small government fiscal conservatives" you model yourself after?

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President Reagan [was] defeated by Congress eight times on legislation he vetoed. These measures became law after Mr. Reagan vetoed them and Congress overrode him:

An act amending the manufacturing clause of the copyright law, vetoed July 8, 1982.

A $14.2 billion supplemental appropriation for the fiscal year ended Sept. 30, 1982, vetoed Aug. 28, 1982.

An act authorizing the Secretary of the Interior to convey, without consideration, lands in Lane County, Ore., vetoed Oct. 19, 1983.

An act authorizing a continuing program of research on water resources, vetoed Feb. 21, 1984.

An act amending the Public Health Service Act to revise and extend that law to the National Institutes of Health and National Research Institutes, vetoed Nov. 8, 1985.

An act providing economic sanctions against the Government of South Africa, vetoed Sept. 26, 1986.

The Water Quality Act of 1987, a $20 billion antipollution measure, vetoed Jan. 30, 1987.

And the Federal Aid Highway Act of 1987, vetoed March 27, 1987.

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the colleges havent become publicly funded yet

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but more important is spending.. Bush increased the Federal budget by a massive 700 billion.. so Obama comes in, and adds an additional 1 trillion! and Obama has already increased wellfare spending nearly 7X. the Republicans, to their credit, voted along party lines against this massive stimulus bill, and the Democrats budget.. so this new spending cannot be blamed on Bush alone

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...the current democrat majority hasnt exactly been frugal, despite all the crying about Bushs spending. that seems a bit hypocritical to me

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Kwicko- Actually, an awful lot of it CAN be blamed on Bush. Many of us were saying FOR YEARS that you can't cut taxes, massively increase spending, THEN launch TWO WARS, and never expect to have the bills come due.

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Let's look at it another way. Let's look at unemployment. Today it hit 9.4%. That's high. That's bad. The last time unemployment was this high was 26 years ago. In 1983. More than two years into the right-wing demigod Reagan's first term.

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To many, Reagan will be glorified for getting us out of the mess that Carter and Ford got us into - but even painted in the best possible light, it took him quite a huge amount of money and well over two years to do it. Thanks for giving Obama the benefit of the doubt, and all of five months to dig us out of the bottomless pit that Bush left us in...

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Originally posted by antimason:
its ok for Obama to rack up an enormous deficit to "spend us out" of this depression, but when Reagan did it, oh.. now thats fiscally irresponsible. am i right?

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Originally posted by Kwicko:
Why do you think I keep poking him?!

Dance, Monkey! DANCE!

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Originally posted by BigDamnKnobBuddy:

Just pull the strings and make him dance.

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Ah yes, the epitome of reasoned debate.

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Originally posted by Kwicko:
Right back atchya, Knob-Buddy.

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Originally posted by BigDamnNobody:

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Originally posted by Kwicko:
Right back atchya, Knob-Buddy.

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How old are you?

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Originally posted by Kwicko:

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Originally posted by BigDamnNobody:

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Originally posted by Kwicko:
Right back atchya, Knob-Buddy.

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How old are you?

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Ah, yes. The epitome of reasoned debate.

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Originally posted by BigDamnNobody:

Ah yes, the epitome of

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Originally posted by chrisisall:

Be quiet.

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Originally posted by Kwicko:
By the way, thank you SO MUCH for raising the level of debate around here.

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Originally posted by BigDamnNobody:

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Originally posted by Kwicko:
By the way, thank you SO MUCH for raising the level of debate around here.

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I do what I can.

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