not PN-- Mass. cops arrest ( black) Harvard professor in his own house by NewOldBrownCoat

Quote:
Originally posted by Hero:

When he stepped outside

Uh, when he was tricked outside so the arrest could stick.

Thirty seconds of not taking it personally by the officer, and this is not a story.

The laughing Chrisisall

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Friday, July 24, 2009 6:48 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by AnthonyT:

This is about respect and responsibility between civilian authorities and civilians. That is where the dialogue should be centered. Not on color or race.

Thank you for the ultimate post in this matter, Anthony!

The laughing Chrisisall

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Friday, July 24, 2009 6:51 AM

Simply put.

Pair of assholes having a disagreement.

One of those assholes happened to be in his official job capacity at the time, one did not.

Then misused his official status to add weight to his end of the disagreement, which puts him clearly in the wrong, nuff said.

When you pin on that badge, you no longer GET the "having a bad day" excuse, because your responsibility SHOULD (although we all know it doesn't, and that's the problem!) elevate in direct proportion to your authority over a situation, and to act irresponsibly in such a fashion at any OTHER job would get you fired.

Believe me, I've taken more worse crap in my time, and I would lay good odds that having worked security/nightwatchman himself, Anthony has done so as well - long as the homeowner did not actively lay hands upon him, the cop in question should be standing in the unemployment line.

Period.

-F

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Friday, July 24, 2009 7:35 AM

BIGDAMNNOBODY

Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
Thank you for the ultimate post in this matter, Anthony!

Yeah, because he was the first person in this thread to mention something along those lines.
Biped.

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Friday, July 24, 2009 10:01 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by BigDamnNobody:

Biped.

Say that to my face, then ask yourself: "Do I feel lucky...?"

The laughing Chrisisall

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Friday, July 24, 2009 10:33 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
When he stepped outside

Uh, when he was tricked outside so the arrest could stick.

SO the officer tricked him...him being a highly educated Harvard professor.

Its the oldest trick in the book. "Follow me outside and continue you highly inappropriate and turbulent behaivor." Works every time.

H

"Hero. I have come to respect you"- Chrisisall, 2009.

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Friday, July 24, 2009 11:21 AM

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

Gates had the right not only to demand police ID but to be shown it. And once he produced his own ID, the patrolman should have said 'sorry sir, my mistake, have a nice day' and be gone, as the public SERVANT he is. That's what SHOULD have happened.

That's what WOULD have happened had Gates been white.

***************************************************************

But I understand that 'Hero' thinks it's OK for police to harass, intimidate, belittle, trick, punch, taser or otherwise goad innocent people into doing something - ANYthing - or even provide physical evidence themselves where none exists - as a pretext for an arrest.

All in the name of upholding the 'law', eh 'Hero' ?

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Friday, July 24, 2009 12:00 PM

WHOZIT

Barack Obama: Race baiting poverty pimp.

Now Barry is calling the the Cop to tell him how great he is, his whores in the press are asking him tuff question now........COOL!

Barry IS the stupid one, soon I will laff at your pain!

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Friday, July 24, 2009 12:48 PM

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

If 'Barry' is the stupid one, what does that make you - the black hole of any intelligence that comes near ? Or just a hole ?

***************************************************************

Silence is consent.

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Friday, July 24, 2009 1:05 PM

Quote:
That's what WOULD have happened had Gates been white.

I ain't sure that's as true as people think.

When an authoritarian asshole high on his own debateable authority gets a bee in his bonnet, I don't think the color of his victim matters very much.

-F

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Friday, July 24, 2009 1:58 PM

BIGDAMNNOBODY

Quote:
Originally posted by rue:
That's what WOULD have happened had Gates been white.

Why is it that the very people who cry the loudest about racism are the one's continuing to fan the non-existent flames?
I understand Sharpton's angle, without it he would be out of the spotlight. But what does a 50 year old polish woman get out of it?

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Friday, July 24, 2009 2:00 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Fremdfirma:

When an authoritarian asshole high on his own debateable authority gets a bee in his bonnet, I don't think the color of his victim matters very much.

Gorram straight.

The laughing Chrisisall

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Friday, July 24, 2009 3:58 PM

Freedom is Important because People are Important

Hello,

Rue, I think the situation would indeed have been different had the aggrieved in this case been white. The primary difference is that the matter would not have received this level of national attention, from the President to the Press.

The problem of this situation is that three people exercised their rights to make bad decisions. Had anyone involved given any thought to the consequences of their actions, I like to think they would have acted differently.

I say three people, because President Obama also made a very bad decision when he commented on the event. I'll explain more on this later.

First, the homeowner should have given more thought to his situation. It is plainly and obviously unnusual for the owner of a home to be breaking into his home. It does happen, but it is an event that we would HOPE would attract the attention of neighbors and other passerby who have a concern for the well being of their comminity. Obviously the neighbors would have an idea about who lived in the home, but just as obviously they could not clearly identify the person attempting to break into the property. It is good and right, at least in our timid society, that the neighbors called for a police investigation of the matter. Had someone in fact been trying to break into his home, the professor would be quite glad for the police investigation. He would want unknown parties inside his home after a report of a break in to be interrogated about their identities. He would want all of this, IF his home had been broken into.

It was doubtless troublesome and perhaps embarrassing for a policeman to investigate the non-incident. However, a thoughtful and intelligent man like the good professor should have been able to appreciate that the police officer was doing his duty, and was there in fact to help the unknown owner of the property (house.) It was good and right for the officer to ask, "Who are you," and to request more than just a say-so about the person's identity. These things all make perfect sense in the context of an investigation about a break-in. However, either because of social programming about race issues, or because he was having a bad day, the professor did not act in a thoughtful manner. He behaved belligerantly. I consider it to have been fully within his rights to behave badly, but I stress that just because you CAN do a thing does not mean you SHOULD do that thing.

The officer, meanwhile, transformed himself from a heroic figure to a bit of a villain. He was doubtless indignant and upset that the person who should have been most grateful for his visit was in fact angry with him and generally uncooperative. For most of humanity employed in a customer service capacity (which is what I maintain 75% of Police work amounts to) we simply grin and bear the insults of our customers, de-escalate the situation to the best of our ability, and try to carry out our work. The officer was able, ultimately, to determine that there was no break in. He could identify the owner, and verify that the owner was not in danger. At this point, the wise thing to do would have been to remove himself from the scene. The home owner may have been behaving badly, but since that behavior was linked directly to the presence of the officer and a perceived insult, going away was in fact the best way to defuse the proverbial bomb. Mission accomplished, go on about the days work. However, there was a law which allowed the officer to arrest the home owner. The law was doubtless not designed to punish homeowners frustrated with police visitations. However, because the officer COULD retaliate against the poor behavior by arresting the homeowner, he chose to do so for the immediate gratification provided. This was not a benefit to the community, nor ultimately a benefit even to the arresting officer. We have another example of why just because you CAN do a thing, does not mean you SHOULD do that thing.

Finally, we have President Obama. He spent a large amount of time producing press for his Health Care Bill. Then, when asked a question on a sensitive unrelated issue, he decided to make a comment. No matter what Obama's actual information was, or what his feelings were, it was a bad idea to respond to that question. It may have given him personal gratification to express kneejerk, socially programmed responses to situations involving persons of different races. However, even if there HAD been racial profiling and injustice, this was not the moment to comment on it. He could have as easily defused the question with, "I intend to speak on that subject once I have all the facts of the case." Instead, he opined, and in so doing, he transformed the next day's headlines. He converted press about Health Care to press about Race Relations. This was, in fact, stupid. Or at least thoughtless. He has every right to express his opinion, but just because he COULD do it, does not mean he SHOULD do it.

As things stand now, we have three losers who could have been three winners. The professor could have been thoughtful and kind about police attention to protect his property. The police officer could have performed his duties without incident, and spared himself national scrutiny and controversy. The president could have had the news center on his Health Care rather than his opinions on race.

Instead, everyone loses. Maybe. The professor may still be able to convert this incident into popularity and revenue in the form of class lectures, articles, books, and even movies about race relations in America.

For my own part, I shake my head at all of them. I expect college professors to be thoughtful. I expect Police Officers to be responsible. I expect Presidents to be Intelligent.

I saw none of this.

--Anthony

"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner

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Friday, July 24, 2009 5:05 PM

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

"When an authoritarian asshole high on his own debateable authority gets a bee in his bonnet, I don't think the color of his victim matters very much."

If the man had been white but POOR he most definitely would have been hassled. But a RICH WHITE MAN IN A WELL TO DO NEIGHBORHOOD ? Think about it --- carefully. A RICH WHITE MAN having a bad day and then having to break into his own house. Sorry sir, my mistake. Have a nice day. He would be considered an asshole. An itch. A spoiled rich prick. But a person one should show respect to nevertheless. And the officer would probably have had a few choice descriptions to regale his co-workers with at the end of the day.

Yes, race still makes a difference.

***************************************************************

Silence is consent.

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Friday, July 24, 2009 5:16 PM

Freedom is Important because People are Important

Rue,

A rich anyone might have been treated better, had they been identifiable as being rich. I trust that if somehow the professor had been wearing the badge 'rich professor, nationally renowned' around his neck when the officer first spied him, the result would not have been the same.

And yet an unidentified white man who was belligerent and uncooperative, in a home where a white man was reported to be breaking in... I suspect he would be treated badly by a prideful authoritarian figure.

Anyone lacking the 'I am important' proverbial badge would have fared similarly, I think.

There are race problems in the US. They happen every day.

I don't think this was one of them.

--Anthony

"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner

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Friday, July 24, 2009 5:19 PM

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

An unidentified WELL DRESSED white man who THEN presents ID showing that he is indeed the owner and resident of the house - sorry sir, my mistake. You are obviously not the burglar that was reported.

Once Gates was ID'd as the owner, it should have ended there.

It WOULD have ended there if he had been white. The money factor of the white guy would have been the big stop sign - in the way that it wasn't for a rich BLACK man.

***************************************************************

Silence is consent.

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Friday, July 24, 2009 5:25 PM

Freedom is Important because People are Important

A friend suggested I clarify something.

I am sure that had the officer been able to identify the person at the door instantly, there would have been no altercation. This was the meaning of my 'rich man badge' comment.

The altercation occurred, and THEN the identity came to the fore. By this time the authoritarian pride was wounded and events had begun their slide downhill.

I maintain that any thoughtfulness or responsibility shown at this point could have de-escalated things. Neither party showed such, and so the arrest became a natural consequence of two people behaving badly.

But do you honestly think if the professor had been recognized (or politely identified himself with evidence) in minute one of this situation, that he would have been an arrest simply because he was black?

No, he was arrested because he behaved badly, and the officer was appalled that the homeowner had failed to 'respect his authority.' Not because he was black. But because he was a citizen, and the officer was a law man.

--Anthony

"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner

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Friday, July 24, 2009 5:27 PM

Freedom is Important because People are Important

Quote:
Originally posted by rue:
An unidentified WELL DRESSED white man who THEN presents ID showing that he is indeed the owner and resident of the house - sorry sir, my mistake. You are obviously not the burglar that was reported.

Once Gates was ID'd as the owner, it should have ended there.

It WOULD have ended there if he had been white. The money factor of the white guy would have been the big stop sign - in the way that it wasn't for a rich BLACK man.

***************************************************************

Silence is consent.

Rue,

We are in agreement that it should have ended there. In fact, it never should have started.

The professor should have thoughtfully assisted in the investigation.

The police officer should not have allowed his wounded pride to guide him.

But there is no evidence here for race being a factor. Believing that race is a factor is a result of social programming about race relations, and not the actual facts of this case and these people.

--Anthony

"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner

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Friday, July 24, 2009 5:28 PM

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

If Gates had been white - a badly behaved but well dressed, wealthy, middle-aged and ultimately properly identified home owner - the officer would have climbed down.

Yes, he might have broken a few of his own teeth biting back his words. But he would have done it.

***************************************************************

Silence is consent.

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Friday, July 24, 2009 5:35 PM

Freedom is Important because People are Important

Hello,

I don't think that much can be assumed here. There is no evidence to support the leap that the officer was racist. There may be social programming that tells us we should assume that much, but it is up to the facts to illuminate our philosophy, not our philosophy to illuminate the facts.

--Anthony

"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner

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Friday, July 24, 2009 5:42 PM

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

I've literally had police overlook me - their eyes just passed over me as if I wasn't here - when they looking for a no-description perpetrator. (In one case it really was me - I accidentally set off a security alarm by banging on the side of a Quonset hut. So though I was quite literally the ONLY person there, they drove right by.) Being white - and female - got me off the hook on more than one occasion. It has to do with unconscious associations which exist despite our conscious efforts to be unbiased. This is well documented by repeated studies over many years and many populations. (Blink: The Power of Thinking Without Thinking)

Put yourself in the shoes of a police officer. MOST of the time the people they hassle (whether rightly or wrongly) can do jack about it. But policing is highly political work. You have to know who you can safely piss off and who you cannot. Rich, well-dressed, middle-aged white homeowner - NOT in the 'you can jerk them around at will' category.

***************************************************************

Silence is consent.

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Friday, July 24, 2009 5:50 PM

Freedom is Important because People are Important

Rue,

Are you not also making unconscious (or perhaps even conscious) assumptions? You are assuming this particular officer conforms to a broad stereotype that you hold in your head.

I'm doing the same thing, by the way. Based on my own experiences within the police department and subject to its abuse from without. I have been treated in varied ways that have had nothing to do with my unidentifiable race. What I have universally detected is that a failure to respect authority will cause an officer to start to look for ways to punish you for your disrespect.

This is neither right nor proper, and I abhor any law that is so nebulous as to outlaw 'disruptive public behavior' or 'indecency.' These broad tools are precisely the ones most misused by prideful authoritarian figures, in my opinion.

But what do we actually know about the people in this case? You could accuse me of making assumptions based on my own social programming or individual experiences or biases. But you can't possibly fail to see that the same possibility exists with your racist assumptions.

Any such assumption may itself be your 'blink' subconscious programming.

--Anthony

"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner

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Friday, July 24, 2009 5:55 PM

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

80% of white people have strong negative associations with blacks. Even people who consider themselves unbiased. Even people who are TRYING to make the test come out right. Even people who take the test multiple times in order to try to get enough practice to 'trick' it.

If I am making an assumption, it is a well-documented, well-studied, well-supported one - and one so prevalent I would feel comfortable putting money on it.

While I may ILLUSTRATE the situation with my own experience, my basis is indeed the statistics.

***************************************************************

Silence is consent.

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Friday, July 24, 2009 6:09 PM

Freedom is Important because People are Important

Rue,

I suppose if that's true, I could go around declaring random white people to be racists and be accurate 80% of the time.

And yet doing so wouldn't make me right even one time.

--Anthony

"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner

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Friday, July 24, 2009 6:36 PM

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)

Quote:

For my own part, I shake my head at all of them. I expect college professors to be thoughtful. I expect Police Officers to be responsible. I expect Presidents to be Intelligent.

Your expectations have no basis in recent reality.

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Saturday, July 25, 2009 4:40 AM

Quote:
just because you CAN do a thing does not mean you SHOULD do that thing.

I actually have that exact phrase on a brass plaque in my office - one gifted to me many years ago for an act that was equal parts blind courage, and downright stupidity.

Quote:
I abhor any law that is so nebulous as to outlaw 'disruptive public behavior' or 'indecency.'

I lost it somewhere over the years, but I had framed the citation I received for "Public Lewdness", back in Baltimore when I was 22.

Made the mistake of singing a VERY racy ballad during a pub crawl as we were waltzing past a parked police cruiser with a paid of apparently bored cops within - who felt the need to cite me for *something* (along with some pretty disparaging remarks about my singing talent, or the lack thereof..) and spent almost an hour trying to find something, so yeah, laws like that serve a less than noble purpose.

Given WHAT they cited me for, however, I just paid the damn thing and carried it as a badge of honor - really, how many folk do you know who've been cited for THAT one ?!

-F

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Saturday, July 25, 2009 1:28 PM

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

"I suppose if that's true, I could go around declaring random white people to be racists and be accurate 80% of the time.

And yet doing so wouldn't make me right even one time."

And yet, given the nature of the cop's reaction - I suspect it was true of him in particular. And that I am right.

***************************************************************

Having cited the hypothetical
- imagine everything exactly the same: middle aged-male, well-dressed, homeowner and resident of record, WEALTHY in a WEALTHY neighborhood and OBVIOUSLY not a burglar, but with the man being white - I believe YOU can forsee a different outcome.
Having cited personal example
- where cops DID act out of unconscious bias
Having cited statistics
- strong racial bias is prevalent

I think I have made a much better case than you.

It does not PROVE the cop was biased. But you at the same time can't prove he wasn't. And my information stacks up better than yours in support of my conclusion.

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Saturday, July 25, 2009 1:58 PM

Asking someone to prove a negative isn't exactly an honest method of debating them.

Just sayin,

-F

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Saturday, July 25, 2009 2:00 PM

Anthony was right: it was a lose lose lose.

The laughing Chrisisall

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Saturday, July 25, 2009 2:01 PM

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

Then he can do what scientists do - disprove the null. He has options. But nowhere in this thread do I find anyone saying anything other than "my opinion is ...", and no one is extending their thoughts.

***************************************************************

Silence is consent.

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Monday, July 27, 2009 2:27 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by rue:
That's what WOULD have happened had Gates been white.

White folks are arrested for Disorderly Conduct just the same as this man.

The issue is not that Mr. Gates was black...its that the officer was white. Mr. Gates, the media, and the President showed a signifigant level of racism against the officer. They all jumped to the conclusion that a white officer was incapable of acting in a proper manner with a black man. If the officer had been black...this would never have gotten the President's attention. That was racist.

Maybe they needed a wise latina woman to mediate...

Quote:

But I understand that 'Hero' thinks it's OK for police to harass, intimidate, belittle, trick, punch, taser or otherwise goad innocent people into doing something - ANYthing - or even provide physical evidence themselves where none exists - as a pretext for an arrest.

All in the name of upholding the 'law', eh 'Hero' ?

I note for the record that neither Mr. Gates nor the President has accused the officer in this case of harassment, intmmidation, belittlement, or trickery. Nor was Mr. Gates punched or tasered. The officer did decide to leave Mr. Gates house and informed him that if he wanted to discuss the matter further he would have to come outside. Once outside nobody forced Mr. Gates to continue his turbulent behaivor...in public at which point he was no longer "innocent".

Mr. Gates pushed this incident to his arrest. He was out of control, refused to calm down, and needed to be taken into custody.

H

"Hero. I have come to respect you"- Chrisisall, 2009.

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Monday, July 27, 2009 2:35 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Fremdfirma:
I lost it somewhere over the years, but I had framed the citation I received for "Public Lewdness", back in Baltimore when I was 22.
...
how many folk do you know who've been cited for THAT one ?!

Well...there you and a bunch of sex offenders. But keep right on carrying it.

Just remember to register if you move to Ohio.

H

"Hero. I have come to respect you"- Chrisisall, 2009.

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Monday, July 27, 2009 5:54 AM

Hey, now I was wearing pants.

They wanted to arrest someone for swinging low, that woulda been MadOx, who was wearing his kilt regimental - and if my singing offended them so, they shoulda been damn glad we made him leave the pipes home!

-F

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Monday, July 27, 2009 11:37 AM

CANTTAKESKY

Quote:
Originally posted by AnthonyT:
This is about respect and responsibility between civilian authorities and civilians. That is where the dialogue should be centered. Not on color or race.

Yet another articulate and hit-the-nail-on-the-head summary from our dear AnthonyT.

You da man. Thank you.

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Tuesday, July 28, 2009 2:23 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by AnthonyT:
There is no evidence to support the leap that the officer was racist.

No. But race is an issue. The evidence is that Mr. Gates and President Obama are racist.

This is not a case of 'driving while black'...its a case of 'policing while white'. Racial profiling pure and simple...less by Mr. Gates, much, much more so by the President.

H

"Hero. I have come to respect you"- Chrisisall, 2009.

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Tuesday, July 28, 2009 6:05 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Hero:

Mr. Gates pushed this incident to his arrest. He was out of control, refused to calm down, and needed to be taken into custody.

"Hero. I have come to respect you"- Chrisisall, 2009.

"Hero. I have come to lose some respect you"- Chrisisall, 2009.

Yeah, he NEEDED to be taken into custody. Taxpayer money well spent. In fact, he should have been taken into custody just for having the ABILITY to make a ruckus, y'know, preemptively. Just AIMING to misbehave should be enough of a charge.
We need tighter societal restraints to maintain order.

Heil Hero.

The laughing Chrisisall

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Tuesday, July 28, 2009 6:37 AM

NEWOLDBROWNCOAT

Quote:
Originally posted by Hero:

Mr. Gates pushed this incident to his arrest. He was out of control, refused to calm down, and needed to be taken into custody.

Some years ago out here in LA the neo-Nazi who was then running the LAPD went to the City Council with a reccommendation for the Board of Education that the high school curriculum adopt a teaching unit on How To Be Arrested. Purpose was to teach kids how to be cooperative and properly submissive to police authority, how to make it easier for the cops to haul folks away, to make sure the cops could comply with minimal Constitutional requirements as easily as possible. I'm sure the Gestapo would have approved. Once it hit the papers, it was quickly rejected byt the City Council.

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Tuesday, July 28, 2009 7:00 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by NewOldBrownCoat:
a teaching unit on How To Be Arrested. Purpose was to teach kids how to be cooperative and properly submissive to police authority

That sounds "Hero approved."

The laughing Chrisisall

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Tuesday, July 28, 2009 7:38 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
Quote:
Originally posted by NewOldBrownCoat:
a teaching unit on How To Be Arrested. Purpose was to teach kids how to be cooperative and properly submissive to police authority

That sounds "Hero approved."

The laughing Chrisisall

I'm sure BDN would approve as well.

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Wednesday, July 29, 2009 2:24 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
Quote:
Originally posted by NewOldBrownCoat:
a teaching unit on How To Be Arrested. Purpose was to teach kids how to be cooperative and properly submissive to police authority

That sounds "Hero approved."

Some things need to be taught. A lot of people could use a class on How Not To Be Arrested. But assuming you fail that, then you would need a class on How To Be Arrested...or at least a chapter on How To Avoid A Resisting Charge.

H

"Hero. I have come to respect you"- Chrisisall, 2009.

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Wednesday, July 29, 2009 2:27 AM

PARTICIPANT

Holocaust with the Levees

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Wednesday, July 29, 2009 2:34 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
Yeah, he NEEDED to be taken into custody. Taxpayer money well spent. In fact, he should have been taken into custody just for having the ABILITY to make a ruckus, y'know, preemptively. Just AIMING to misbehave should be enough of a charge.
We need tighter societal restraints to maintain order.

Your being silly.

Your saying that because I advocate arresting people for Disorderly Conduct, that I advocate arresting anyone for anything. I disagree.

Disorderly Conduct is a broad charge and covers a lot of things...but those things it covers are specifically defined. I've seen it cover everything from a loud stereo to a bar fight.

I note for the record that (in Ohio) you CAN NOT be arrested for engaging in turbulant behaivor that harrasses, alarms, incites, or annoys the public. You can ONLY be cited for it...a minor misdemeanor. You can ONLY be arrested for it if you persist after being asked to stop.

I see no harm in the Officer asking Mr. Gates to calm down and then arresting him when he refused to calm down and was now creating a public scene. Gates should have known better...after all, he's a Harvard professor.

I wonder if he would have allowed such a disturbence in his classroom...likely had someone been so disruptive, Mr. Gates would have called the police and the person, had he persisted, would have been arrested with Mr. Gates' approval.

H

"Hero. I have come to respect you"- Chrisisall, 2009.

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Wednesday, July 29, 2009 2:39 AM

PARTICIPANT

Leeve Holocaust

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Wednesday, July 29, 2009 6:12 AM

Political analyst Lawrence O'Donnell refutes the idea that Gates "needed to be arrested" in Time Magazine:

Quote:
Viewpoint: The Stupidity of the Gates Arrest
By Lawrence O'Donnell Jr. Saturday, Jul. 25, 2009
Harvard scholar Henry Louis Gates Jr. was arrested for disorderly conduct while trying to force open the front door of his home on July 16, 2009

Here is what the absurdist, typically stilted language of Sergeant James Crowley's report on the arrest of Harvard professor Henry Louis Gates Jr. really means:

Gates: You're not the boss of me!
Crowley: I am the boss of you.
Gates: You are not the boss of me!
Crowley: I'll show you. You're under arrest.

There is no crime described in Crowley's official version of the way Gates behaved. Crowley says explicitly that he arrested Gates for yelling. Nothing else, not a single threatening movement, just yelling. On the steps of his own home. Yelling is not a crime. Yelling does not meet the definition of disorderly conduct in Massachusetts. Not a single shouted word or action that Crowley has attributed to Gates amounts to disorderly conduct. That is why the charges had to be dropped.
(Read "Gates' Disorderly Conduct: The Police's Judgment Call.")

In classically phony police talk, Crowley refers to "[Gates'] continued tumultuous behavior." When cops write that way, you know they have nothing. What is tumultuous behavior? Here's what it isn't: brandishing a knife in a threatening manner, punching and kicking, clenching a fist in a threatening manner, throwing a wrench or, in the Gates house, maybe a book. If the subject does any of those things, cops always write it out with precision. When they've got nothing, they use phrases that mean nothing. Phrases like tumultuous behavior.

Unless you confess to a crime or threaten to commit a crime, there is nothing you can say to a cop that makes it legal for him to arrest you. You can tell him he is stupid, you can tell him he is ugly, you can call him racist, you can say anything you might feel like saying about his mother. He has taken an oath to listen to all of that and ignore it. That is the real teachable moment here: cops are paid to be professionals, but even the best of them are human and can make stupid mistakes.

We have an uncomfortable choice with Sergeant Crowley. Either he didn't know what disorderly conduct is or he decided to show Gates who's boss the only way he knew how — by whipping out his handcuffs and abusing his power to arrest. Police make the latter choice in this country every day, knowing the charges are going to have to be dropped.
(See TIME's 10 Questions for Henry Louis Gates Jr.)

We all know it happens. That's why so much of the commentary about this case is obsessed with exactly who said what to whom in the Gates home that day. Most white, and some black, TV talking heads obviously believe that Gates was stupid if he actually exercised his constitutional right to say anything he felt like saying to a cop. Because they know it is not terribly difficult to provoke U.S. police to violate their oaths and the law and arrest people for no legal reason.

The President was right when he called the arrest stupid. It doesn't mean Crowley is stupid. It means that, in that moment, he made a stupid choice. Barack Obama has made some stupid choices on occasion too. We all do. Everyone who is defending Crowley's arrest, including his union, needs to reread his report. There is a crime described in there. In fact, Crowley's report is a written confession of the crime of false arrest.

Lawrence O'Donnell Jr. is an MSNBC political analyst and the author of Deadly Force: The True Story of How a Badge Can Become a License to Kill.

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Wednesday, July 29, 2009 6:16 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Hero:

I wonder if he would have allowed such a disturbence in his classroom...likely had someone been so disruptive, Mr. Gates would have called the police and the person, had he persisted, would have been arrested with Mr. Gates' approval.

I wonder if you'd fee the same way if said disturbance was occurring in the student's own home.

According to his own report, Crowley maintains that Gates was "yelling". According to Massachusetts law (per the O'Donnell article cited above), "yelling" isn't a legal cause for arrest for disorderly conduct.

Quote:
Gates should have known better...after all, he's a Harvard professor.

And Crowley should have known better - after all, he's a trained (allegedly) police officer!

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Wednesday, July 29, 2009 7:11 AM

NEWOLDBROWNCOAT

Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko:

And Crowley should have known better - after all, he's a trained (allegedly) police officer!

He's also a sergeant- which means he's got seniority and experience. He's also been the training officer for their racial sensitivity seminars. If he could lose it so badly so easily, what does that say about the junior cops he's trained?
" Black folks, best y'all stay away from Cambridge-- like for the next 20 years."

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Wednesday, July 29, 2009 7:13 AM

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

"White folks are arrested for Disorderly Conduct just the same as this man."

Yes - usually in bars. Not in their own homes. Not for simply speaking more loudly than usual.

'Hero' - you got nothing. This man did NOTHING that he should have been arrested for. NOTHING.

So what WAS the issue ? He wasn't a burglar (with luggage). He didn't commit a felony or misdemeanor. He did NOTHING wrong.

What could the issue possibly have been, then ? Middle-aged, well-dressed, educated, wealthy homeowner in a wealthy neighborhood in his own home. It's right on the edge of my mind. What could POSSIBLY have been the problem ?

***************************************************************

Silence is consent.

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Wednesday, July 29, 2009 7:37 AM

NEWOLDBROWNCOAT

another couple of items-- I saw a piece, I think it was on Time.com, but I can't find the reference. The gist of it was that shouting at a police officer, saying something critical or even offensive to, at, or about a police officer, was specifically exempt from the laws regarding creating a disturbance, etc. Notion being that folks upset with the government are specifically going to take it out on the cops, possibly even unfairly, and are going to be upset and loud. Cop trying to suppress that behavior is gonna end up looking bad, and making the government look bad, in fact is going to suppress, and oppress, freedom of speech, in the very moment when freedom of speech, the right to criticize government, and to petition for redress is most needed.

Cops are supposed to be trained to deal with that, ignore it. Ain't no law requiring how a free citizen of this freedom loving country is supposed to act, short of committing assault, in a politically charged situation.

I can think of plenty of places both world wide and in America historically, where folks legitimately expressing their disapproval, have been arrested, gassed, beaten shot, for no more serious crime.

Come to think of it, I'm also surprised that this cop didn't claim to be in fear of his life. Cops use that one all the time, even when confronted by 90 lb old women armed with screwdrivers, guys with wallets or cell phones that the officer thought was a gun, by a " suspect" making a sudden, suspicious move. THIS GUY HAD A CANE! HE COULDA HIT SOMEBODY WITH IT! HE COULDA CAUSED THE CROWD OF SEVEN BYSTANDERS TO RIOT AND ASSAULT THE COP! 'Course that situation normally causes somebody to get killed, usually not the cop.

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Wednesday, July 29, 2009 7:53 AM