Thank you, Barney Frank! by Kwicko

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Why I think a lot of people really ARE racist is that fact that the Republicna right can get so many people riled up over phantasms, shadows. "Birthers", Obama with a Hitler mustache and "Hitler medicine"... this is just a cover for their true feelings.

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Friday, August 21, 2009 3:04 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
Why I think a lot of people really ARE racist is that fact that the Republicna right can get so many people riled up over phantasms, shadows. "Birthers", Obama with a Hitler mustache and "Hitler medicine"... this is just a cover for their true feelings.

Leftists weren't motivated by Bush43=fascists! for the past eight years ?

What's happening to Obama44 is simply the other side of an ugly coin that was pointed at Bush43 .

The same movement that many on the left paint as racist actually increased aid to Africa and had more minorities in government power positions than even America's "First Black President" Bill Clinton .

As a person who's spent near thirty years observing the "two solitudes" I can honestly say that racism is as prevalent on the left as it is on the right .

It's just masked under a type condescension that seems to afflict leftist elitists .

My take anyways .

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Friday, August 21, 2009 3:13 PM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Quote:
Leftists weren't motivated by Bush43=fascists! for the past eight years ?...As a person who's spent near thirty years observing the "two solitudes"

The difference? Bush really was trending towards fascism. If you're such a consistent obsever of the politcal scene, surely I don't need to remind you of warrantless wiretapping, manipulation of terror threat levels, secret assassination programs, politcal firings of State Attorneys, torture, elimination of habeas corpus, signing statements, unnecessary invasions, and all the other crap that Bush43 escalated to levels not seen since Nixon? (And maybe not even then??)

There are PLENTY of things to accuse Obama about... unnecessarily hemorrhaging money to the financial sector, continuing the fine tradition of "signing statments", covering the telcom's *ss, proposing indefinite preventive detention (some Bush was doing already)... But getting in a froth about this birth certificate issue???????

THAT'S what racists veer towards when they can't grab ahold of anything substantive in their paradigms.

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Friday, August 21, 2009 3:18 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
Quote:
Leftists weren't motivated by Bush43=fascists! for the past eight years ?
The difference? Bush really was trending towards fascism. If you're such a consistent obsever of the American politcal scene, surely I don't need to remind you of warrantless wiretapping, manipulation of terror threat levels, secret assassination programs, politcal firings of State Attorneys, torture, elimination of habeas corpus, signing statements and all the other crap that Bush43 escalated to levels not seen since Nixon? (And maybe not even then??)

There are PLENTY of things to accuse Obama about... hemorrhaging money to the financila sector, continuing the fine tradition of "signing statments", covering the telcom's *ss, proposing indefinite preventive detention (some Bush was doing already)... But getting in a froth about this birth certificate issue???????

THAT'S what racists veer towards when they can't grab ahold of anything substantive in their paradigms.

And yet nearly all of Bush43's ( troubling "security measures" for sure ) have not , nor will be dismantled .

Politicians are almost uniformly reluctant to cede power no matter whence it came and no matter what they said prior to gaining power .

That's why the US system is separated into three powerful structures .

It's a hard machine to break .

It is your strength .

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Friday, August 21, 2009 3:24 PM

Am I wrong in thinking that a man who's greatest accomplishment was to ( ghost? ) write two books about himself might just not meet the criteria needed for running the most powerful office in the world ?

I'm no fan of Bush43 and am marginally more impressed with Ms Clinton .

I am not impressed by any measure by Obama44 other than his ability to read a teleprompter in a mesmerizing cadence .

I think that if he only waited four - eight years he just might have achieved the POTUS with a better grounding and as such might have been a far better leader .

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Friday, August 21, 2009 3:25 PM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Quote:
And yet nearly all of Bush43's ( troubling "security measures" for sure ) have not , nor will be dismantled

And THAT is exactly what I criticize Obama for. But what about the peeps who really ARE in a froth about nothing? What's their "agenda"?

Simple- they don't have one. They will pick on anything and everything... that Michelle Obama wore shorts or that Barack "hasn't" produced his birth certificate or that there will be "death panels". WTF???? Gasping at straws, really. And why??? Because they cannot speak out loud what's really on their minds.

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Friday, August 21, 2009 3:42 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
Quote:
And yet nearly all of Bush43's ( troubling "security measures" for sure ) have not , nor will be dismantled
And THAT is exactly what I criticize Obama for. But what about the peeps who really ARE in a froth about nothing? What's their "agenda"?

Simple- they don't have one. They will pick on anything and everything... that Michelle Obama wore shorts or that Barack "hasn't" produced his birth certificate or that there will be "death panels". WTF???? Gasping at straws, really. And why??? Because they cannot speak out loud what's really on their minds.

Hey , at no point have I not thought a lot of the sound and fury propagated by political pundits are nothing more than that .

It's just that no matter how unhinged ( or hinged if you will ) the ultimate debate stopper is to simply bring the race card into play .

And that card is played by the left far more often than the right .

It gets in the way of serious debate .

( as does the silly birth certificate , "sekrit Muslim" crap propagated by some far out righties )

For instance - many of my Canadian peers are happy that a black man has achieved POTUS stauts .

"Why?" I ask .

"Because America is such a racist country." is the standard refrain .

Racist ?

As in institutional ?

Show me a country where blacks ( and other minorities ) are able to flourish as well as they do in the USA .

Does anyone really believe Obama44 would have achieved his incredible life back in Kenya ?

Not saying it doesn't exist ( I'm not a tard no matter what impression I may be making here ) because it does .

Up here too .

But not to the extent that it is given .

( edited for a speelin' error )

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Friday, August 21, 2009 3:48 PM

...The difference? Bush really was trending towards fascism

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Friday, August 21, 2009 3:56 PM

HKCAVALIER

Quote:
Originally posted by AdmiralDigby:
...a man who's greatest accomplishment was to ( ghost? ) write two books about himself...

Your bias is showing with this groundless smear.

HKCavalier

Hey, hey, hey, don't be mean. We don't have to be mean, because, remember, no matter where you go, there you are.

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Friday, August 21, 2009 3:58 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by HKCavalier:
Quote:
Originally posted by AdmiralDigby:
...a man who's greatest accomplishment was to ( ghost? ) write two books about himself...
Your bias is showing with this groundless smear.

HKCavalier

Hey, hey, hey, don't be mean. We don't have to be mean, because, remember, no matter where you go, there you are.

How is it groundless ?

He wrote *two* books about himself before he was forty-five .

Seriously .

And an edit - "smear" ?

pointing out that Obama has two books about himself is a smear ?

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Friday, August 21, 2009 4:20 PM

BYTEMITE

So? Christopher Paolini wrote two best-selling thousand page books before he was NINETEEN.

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Friday, August 21, 2009 4:37 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Bytemite:
So? Christopher Paolini wrote two best-selling thousand page books before he was NINETEEN.

About himself ?

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Friday, August 21, 2009 5:35 PM

BYTEMITE

No, but if that's what the issue here is, you don't have to be 45 or older to have an interesting book-worthy life.

I mean, Helen Keller turned blind and deaf when she was nineteen months old. And there still seems to be a lot of confusion among some people about where Barack Obama was even born. Perhaps writing two books may have been intended to shed some insight on that very matter.

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Friday, August 21, 2009 5:46 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Bytemite:
No, but if that's what the issue here is, you don't have to be 45 or older to have an interesting book-worthy life.

I mean, Helen Keller turned blind and deaf when she was nineteen months old. And there still seems to be a lot of confusion among some people about where Barack Obama was even born. Perhaps writing two books may have been intended to shed some insight on that very matter.

Perhaps .

Perhaps it was more to do with branding a nascent politician .

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Friday, August 21, 2009 5:49 PM

DREAMTROVE

Anyone bring popcorn?

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Friday, August 21, 2009 5:55 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by dreamtrove:
Anyone bring popcorn?

I have beer .

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Friday, August 21, 2009 6:29 PM

DREAMTROVE

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Friday, August 21, 2009 6:56 PM

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Friday, August 21, 2009 7:16 PM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Quote:
And that card is played by the left far more often than the right . It gets in the way of serious debate .

Bull. The RIGHT gets in the way of serious debate. You don't know me, but I'm HAPPY to discuss issues of substance, as are most of the left-wingers here. But what does the right-wing bring to the table? Obama is a Muslim. Obama wa born in Kenya. Obama wore "mom" pants. Michelle wore shorts. Michelle showed her arms. They picked the wrong kind of dog. Obama's healthcare plan has death panels.

I mean, really. When does the silly stuff end?

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Friday, August 21, 2009 7:26 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
Quote:
And that card is played by the left far more often than the right . It gets in the way of serious debate .
Bull. The RIGHT gets in the way of serious debate. You don't know me, but I'm HAPPY to discuss issues of substance, as are most of the left-wingers here. But what does the right-wing bring to the table? Obama is a Muslim. Obama wa born in Kenya. Obama wore "mom" pants. Michelle wore shorts. Michelle showed her arms. They picked the wrong kind of dog. Obama's healthcare plan has death panels.

I mean, really. When does the silly stuff end?

And , what ?

Did I not point that out ?

Ferris ?
Anyone ?

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Friday, August 21, 2009 7:41 PM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

No, what you said was that the race card gets in the way of serious debate. But how can one have a debate of any sort... serious or otherwise... when the opposing side brings gafla to the table?

This is not a case of both sides being equally at fault.

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Friday, August 21, 2009 8:23 PM

HKCAVALIER

Quote:
Originally posted by AdmiralDigby:
Quote:
Originally posted by HKCavalier:
Quote:
Originally posted by AdmiralDigby:
...a man who's greatest accomplishment was to ( ghost? ) write two books about himself...
Your bias is showing with this groundless smear.

How is it groundless ?

He wrote *two* books about himself before he was forty-five .

Seriously .

And an edit - "smear" ?

pointing out that Obama has two books about himself is a smear ?

Are you trolling? Are you a sock-puppet? Hard to imagine having any kind of conversation with you if you are truly this obtuse.

Obviously I was referring to your "ghost?" parenthetical. There is absolutely no evidence for that contention. It's part of the "I just don't trust the guy" meme, perpetuated by racist nationalists and parroted by the likes of you.

HKCavalier

Hey, hey, hey, don't be mean. We don't have to be mean, because, remember, no matter where you go, there you are.

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Friday, August 21, 2009 8:34 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
No, what you said was that the race card gets in the way of serious debate. But how can one have a debate of any sort... serious or otherwise... when the opposing side brings gafla to the table?

This is not a case of both sides being equally at fault.

What ?

"gafla" ?

WTF ?

Seriously .

Have you not witnessed the previous eight years ?

Crazy-ass fascist predictions were floated by the anti-Bush43 crowd with no corroboration or actual proof .

And yet the minute someone questions the new kid they're smeared as being racist ?

"Un-Patriotic = Racist"

Both are dishonest .

Am I clear ?

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Saturday, August 22, 2009 2:40 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
I mean, really. When does the silly stuff end?

Would you like me to dig up some old threads regarding the former President? How about the "Russia is really big" thread? How about the numerous threads started over grammatical errors? Remember the thread that was started to bash Bush regarding his wearing of a countries local garb? Ever see the picture of Bush fishin'? How about the one of him flippin' the bird? How much traction did the left get with that picture of Bush holding the foreign dignitaries hand? Where were you to decry this silly stuff back then?

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Saturday, August 22, 2009 3:55 AM

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)

Quote:

I just think the man is grossly inexperienced for the most important job in the world .

Not unlike the last guy .

What kind of on-the-job training do you recommend for "most important job in the world"? How does one get the experience for that? Is there a "second-most important job in the world" that you get promoted from? How'd that work out for Ford? How'd it work out for HW Bush? Or Gore, for that matter?

Mike

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Saturday, August 22, 2009 4:07 AM

Quote:
It's just masked under a type condescension that seems to afflict leftist elitists .

So you're whining about being lumped in with a particular group because you're a conservative, and you say it's being done to you because the left are all condescending elitists? What an awesome argument.

While you may not see them as racists, we've got racists aplenty right here on this board. We have people who constantly refer to Obama as "SCAMBO" (a play on "Sambo") or "Obama-dongo", post up video of Zulus charging the (all white) British army in response to why they feel the need to be armed at town hall meetings (you know, because "the natives" just might overrun them if they don't have all their guns with them)...

Yeah, I don't know WHERE anyone might get the idea that there are racists on the right.

If you don't want to be associated with them, distance yourself from them and tell them in no uncertain terms that they're idiots and aren't helping. Otherwise, you're seen as giving tacit approval to their views. Why, it's *almost* as if you're approving of fascism and palling around with domestic terrorists!

Mike

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Saturday, August 22, 2009 4:44 AM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Quote:
What ? "gafla" ? WTF ? Seriously.

I assume you know what gafla means? It's a term from DUNE, which says (in one word) distractions that leaders throw to the population to keep them from looking at the important issues.

Quote:
Have you not witnessed the previous eight years ? Crazy-ass fascist predictions were floated by the anti-Bush43 crowd with no corroboration or actual proof.

First of all, I'm not recalling any crazy-ass "predictions". What I do recall is a lot of gasping reaction to what Bush had already DONE. So if you can enlighten me by telling me SPECIFICALLY which "predictions" you're talking about, I'll be happy to respond.

AFA the reactions to what Bush had already DONE, much of it was solidly attested to by witnesses- even those within his administration. I'm not going to go through the list which I already provided, but I'll betcha dollars to donuts that as the secrets dribble out from the Bush admin it will look worse and worse.... not better and better. So WTF??? back atcha.

Quote:
And yet the minute someone questions the new kid they're smeared as being racist ? "Un-Patriotic = Racist" Both are dishonest.

I have NO PROBLEMS with people "questioning" the new kid. I go to a site pretty much every day which does. They question him about everything: The bailout and TARP, indefinite detention, international trade, his coziness with Goldman Sachs, his commitment to universal health care... Your attempt to frame the debate to say that anyone who "questions" the President is accused of as being "racist" is rhetorically dishonest.

A word of caution, Admiral: We're not rhetorical newbies around here. At a glance I found three major dishonest statements of yours in this thread and you've only been called on two. So let me go back and refresh your memory:

Quote:
Am I wrong in thinking that a man who's greatest accomplishment was to ( ghost? ) write two books about himself might just not meet the criteria needed for running the most powerful office in the world ?-ADM
Your bias is showing with this groundless smear.-HKCavalier
How is it groundless ? He wrote *two* books about himself before he was forty-five .-ADM

You didn't criticize Obama for writing two books about himself. You criticized him for that being his GREATEST ACCOMPLISHMENT. I see that "reframing" is your stock in trade, and I'm calling you on it. Honesty would be appreciated. Weasel-wording? Not so much.

Now HERE is an argument which is not only honest, it's on-point!

Quote:
Would you like me to dig up some old threads regarding the former President? How about the "Russia is really big" thread? How about the numerous threads started over grammatical errors? Remember the thread that was started to bash Bush regarding his wearing of a countries local garb? Ever see the picture of Bush fishin'? How about the one of him flippin' the bird? How much traction did the left get with that picture of Bush holding the foreign dignitaries hand? Where were you to decry this silly stuff back then?

Yep, ya got me. SOME of it was groundless. (Some not so much. Many of the pictures of Bush holding hands with the Saudi Prince were posted IN RESPONSE TO Obama's bow. So one silliness was responded to by another. FU on that.) However, in defense of the anti-Bushies, our criticism were not JUST about silly stuff. Most of it was pretty damn serious. Treasonous, in fact. Nobody wants to see Bush tried for wearing silly clothes, but many of us would like to see him tried for treason.

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Saturday, August 22, 2009 6:19 AM

FREMDFIRMA

Quote:
Crazy-ass fascist predictions were floated by the anti-Bush43 crowd with no corroboration or actual proof.

Issat so ?

Mind you, I'd say personally I nailed about 85-90% of em, often with proof in hand, and now that all this shit is finally coming out it's not so damn crazy any more is it now ?

Especially since I nailed all the big ones dead-bang square, chapter and verse, all the way down the line - so if you wanna dance this number, best do it with someone who didn't have the playlist in hand before the curtain even came up.

-F

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Saturday, August 22, 2009 6:25 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Fremdfirma:
Mind you, I'd say personally I nailed about 85-90% of em, often with proof in hand, and now that all this shit is finally coming out it's not so damn crazy any more is it now ?

How about a little refresher.

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Saturday, August 22, 2009 7:56 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...

I'm almost hesitant to enter this thread, given Digby's feelings about me, but what the hell, here it may be safe.

I came in this morning to find Bytemite's reasonable response to Digby's

Quote:
Some people who dislike Obama's policies aren't racists. In fact most are not racists .

But that's a lie you can't let go of. So , as you've said elsewhere about lies and the repeating of , keep it up.

I know it's a long ways back, but it's to and about me, so I'm responding. Thanx for clarifying, Byte:

Quote:
She said "a lot of them." Not all. She also pointed out some who are not racist, and later she realized her mistake, corrected herself, and said that some of THOSE are not ignorant.

Someone isn't lying if they believe what they're saying, and honestly, what she said really was not that offensive (or even wrong, because racists do exist in this country, and I imagine that they might take issue with Barack Obama being president). Nor was it personal to you.

Looks like another misunderstanding to me.

but no, it's no misunderstanding. It's a familiar tactic reflecting his feelings about me. I'm used to it.

What's neat, tho' is that I got left behind and this became a DEBATE, not ganging-up personal attack. I do love this place. And I do love to see how Digby is responding to it SOMEWHAT more as I know he's capable of, i.e., not just name-calling but actual debate. He IS smart, and is capable of holding his own with you guys; I hope the more you encourage him in that direction, the more he responds in kind. Opinionated, yes, and wrong a lot (in my opinion), yes, but capable of engaging, I believe.

That aside, as for the debate since it left there:

Sygnym

Quote:
Why I think a lot of people really ARE racist is that fact that the Republicna right can get so many people riled up over phantasms, shadows. "Birthers", Obama with a Hitler mustache and "Hitler medicine"... this is just a cover for their true feelings.

Excellent. You made the point for me. It's not, to me, that idiotic stuff is hurled at POTUS(es) every time by the other side, but that the things people have swallowed whole have been so extreme ad have appealed to the VISCERAL nature of people this time, not as much the POLITICAL nature, that indicates they're playing into something "else", as well as the fact that they're so enthusiastically embraced.

Dig:

Quote:
What's happening to Obama44 is simply the other side of an ugly coin that was pointed at Bush43 .

The same movement that many on the left paint as racist actually increased aid to Africa and had more minorities in government power positions than even America's "First Black President" Bill Clinton .

As a person who's spent near thirty years observing the "two solitudes" I can honestly say that racism is as prevalent on the left as it is on the right . It's just masked under a type condescension that seems to afflict leftist elitists.

Yes, the right has done the things you mentioned, tho' I wouldn't contrast them with the left, as I think it can be said of both sides, but of course, there are good intentions on both sides through history. And yes, there's racism on both sides, in all societies, but what's happening now seems to me a more blatant appeal to the inherent racism in this country. For one thing, all the polls and facts show the biggest atni-Obama mentality is in the South by FAR, a part of our country so connected to racism that it must make those who AREN'T down there squirm sometimes. If one breaks Obama's approval rating, and about anything else having to do with him, into areas of the country, the numbers change dramatically.

There certainly is condescension masking reverse-racism (as bad as racism in some ways) on the left, but in my opinion, the results of overt racism are more prevalent on the right and more destructive by far. I'll take good-faith efforts, despite containing condescension, over overt hatred any day. And you might want to drop the "leftist elitists" thing--just a suggestion--but I don't think it'll work here; I don't think most of the lefties here are "elitists", nor will it get the visceral reaction you seek.

Sygnym:

Quote:
But getting in a froth about this birth certificate issue???????

THAT'S what racists veer towards when they can't grab ahold of anything substantive in their paradigms.

I don't think it's so much that such is what racists veer toward as it's a better tool to utilize in frothing up racists, as it's more instinctive and as such more effective in playing to the (not even necessarily conscious) bigots' emotions. As such, while there is plenty of substantive things to bring up about Obama, I definitely agree, appealing to the idea of him not being an authentic President "gets 'em" on a gut level and incites emotions better.

Dig:

Quote:
And yet nearly all of Bush43's ( troubling "security measures" for sure ) have not , nor will be dismantled .

Politicians are almost uniformly reluctant to cede power no matter whence it came and no matter what they said prior to gaining power .

As to what will or will not be dismantled, time will tell. As to politicians being willing to cede anything which increases your power, absofrigginlootely! The measure of Obama will be what, if any, of Bush's power-grabbing measures will be dismantled by the END of Obama's Presidency, not within the first eight months when he's got so many other things that are more pressing to deal with. Just how I see it.

Quote:
It's just that no matter how unhinged ( or hinged if you will ) the ultimate debate stopper is to simply bring the race card into play .

And that card is played by the left far more often than the right .

It gets in the way of serious debate .

Definitely gets in the way of serious debate; so does the race card being USED. How can one debate something which obscures facts by appealing to the gut? One can't, which is why calling it race (when it actually IS) is the only response.

Sotomayor's nomination was battled by use of the race card, so MANY examples have been pointed out it's pretty impossible to ignore. Again; useful tools to fire up the base. How exactly does one argue with someone saying "if only" she'd voted like the other Puerto Rican...(and then leaving it hanging), except by recognizing that even saying such a thing is an indication of racism?

How does one argue with people saying Obama's not an American (ergo not legally President) because his proof of birth is REJECTED, no matter what facts are presented, except by recognizing it's a race-based conspiracy theory which some people will never recognize as such, despite facts?

How does one argue with someone saying Obama's a Nazi other than telling them trying to talk to them is like trying to talk to the dining room table?

Not recognizing bigotry when it's obvious bigotry is like

(HOW I wish emoticons had been available elsewhere, especially THAT one!

). Where it's used by the left to cry "race!" when the argument ISN'T about race, I decry it too...but I think far too much of the arguments about Obama ARE race based, the Republicans know how to play to subconscious fears and hatred and are doing it quite well.

I'm so glad to see the following:

Cavalier:

Quote:
Obviously I was referring to your "ghost?" parenthetical. There is absolutely no evidence for that contention. It's part of the "I just don't trust the guy" meme, perpetuated by racist nationalists and parroted by the likes of you.

Signym:

Quote:
Your attempt to frame the debate to say that anyone who "questions" the President is accused of as being "racist" is rhetorically dishonest.

A word of caution, Admiral: We're not rhetorical newbies around here.

You didn't criticize Obama for writing two books about himself. You criticized him for that being his GREATEST ACCOMPLISHMENT. I see that "reframing" is your stock in trade, and I'm calling you on it. Honesty would be appreciated. Weasel-wording? Not so much.

That's wonderful. Digby, it's different over here. You can have GREAT debates, but you need to appeal to your intellectual side; the tricks that work elsewhere will most likely be rejected here. There is potential for GREAT interaction here, and I KNOW you have it in you, just use the tricks over there and your brain over here. JUST suggesting; I think you could contribute a lot, and I think might just find you enjoy it a lot, too.

Okay, back on topic: There were lots and lots of stupid things the left called Bush; ditto Obama and the right. People can be very stupid, and when they hate someone or something, they pull out any and all stops they can think of to diss them. There is a lot to find fault with in Obama, and I'm right there finding fault with the best of them.

BUT, I agree wholeheartedly with Frem and others; a lot of the things Bush had thrown at him ARE now coming out and being proven valid...virtually every day. My hub and I, too, saw a lot of them as they happened, but nobody was listening and the totalitarian hold the Bush administration had on this country made it virtually impossible for even those in government to stand up and shout "NO!" People want to hang onto their jobs, and look to their futures; any dissent in the Dumbya years got quashed and killed a lot of careers. But it was obvious to many.

For years in this household we ignored the little colored "threat" thing. We usually turned to one another and said "Fruit Loops!" when we heard it. That came from a story about a guy who was eating his cereal one day when the "Threat Level" indicator was pushed up. Startled him so much he banged his spoon and Fruit Loops flew up to the ceiling. It was SO obviously a fear-manipulation tactic, it only worked on those whose fears were bigger than their ability to think for themselves.

Keith Olbermann (yes, I know, "bathtub boy" over there) just did a rerun of his chronological listing of various "threats", how they were used to counter Abu Grabe, various investigations--essentially ANY negative publicity about anything Bush, as well as to manipulate the Dems campaign.

The minute the Patriot Act came up, we knew what it was really for: increase and consolidation of power. The wiretapping thing was obvious immediately, the claims it wouldn't be used on "regular Americans" not believed for a minute by those aware of what was happening.

Waterboarding, indefinite detention; it was all so obviously a government running roughshod over its people, it would have been amusing but sad to watch happening in a third-world dictatorship; here it was terrifying, and we were helpless to stop it. We demonstrated, we did what we could (for us, writing our representatives was a waste of time, as they were already doing what they could). We could only hope it would come out in the end, and it has and it is. Unfortunately, I don't think anything will ever come of it.

But to dismiss all the stuff hurled at Bush as equivalent to what's being hurled at Obama is just plain blind. Many of the things Bush did are now being proven true; time will tell about Obama, but certainly not his birth certificate, Nazism or the other absurdities. These things aren't rooted in actual dangers, but in visceral appeals to the worst inside the humans they're inciting.

I know this is terribly long; I love that people write long here and present their arguments, and I'm catching up to more than a day's worth of posts; that's my story and I'm sticking to it!

Good luck, Digby; I'd love to see you here presenting your case in a viable, debatable method...I believe in your potential.
________________________
Together we are greater than the sum of our parts

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Saturday, August 22, 2009 8:26 AM

Quote:

It gets in the way of serious debate .

( as does the silly birth certificate , "sekrit Muslim" crap propagated by some far out righties )

*SOME*? In places, including ENTIRE STATES here in America, it's not SOME "far out righties", it's actually THE VAST MAJORITY of them. North Carolina, for instance. A poll week before last asked self-identified registered Republicans if they believe Obama as an American citizen. A whopping SEVENTY-TWO PERCENT answered "No" or "Don't know". That's not "SOME" righties. That's a scary amount of them.

Of course, it should also be noted that 12% of them didn't think Hawaii was a state...

Those "some far out righties" you mentioned include people like Sarah Palin, Tom Delay, Chuck Grassley, Newt Gingrich, Rush Limbaugh (a confirmed longtime drug addict), Glenn Beck (whose mother and brother committed suicide just to get the hell away from him), and countless others. All of them have jumped on either the "birther" train or the "death panels" train, or BOTH, and they're all equally bonkers. Are those the people you really want running the United States? Hell, are these even the people you want arguing your case or framing the "debate"?

Mike

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Saturday, August 22, 2009 8:32 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by AdmiralDigby:

He wrote *two* books about himself before he was forty-five .

Seriously .

I think you're jealous, because from what I've seen lately, most "conservatives" in this country look down on you if you've READ two books before you're forty-five. According to them, it makes you one o' them "leftist elites" they like to bag on so much.

Ruh-roh - Looks like Rudy Giuliani wrote a book about himself. Guess that disqualifies him from running.

John McCain has written FIVE books about himself. So are you mad that Obama has written so many books about himself, or so few?

Quote:
Perhaps it was more to do with branding a nascent politician .

So is it your contention that we should disqualify anyone from the Presidency who's ever written a book? Certainly after the last eight years, we should disqualify anyone who's never read one...

Mike

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Saturday, August 22, 2009 8:41 AM

Quote:

Would you like me to dig up some old threads regarding the former President? How about the "Russia is really big" thread?

Oh, could you? Be a dear and please go dig those up.

Mike

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Saturday, August 22, 2009 8:48 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by BigDamnNobody:
Quote:
Originally posted by Fremdfirma:
Mind you, I'd say personally I nailed about 85-90% of em, often with proof in hand, and now that all this shit is finally coming out it's not so damn crazy any more is it now ?

How about a little refresher.

Sure. It's all right there at the bottom of the RWED thread page, under a link that says "Read threads that have been archived."

Go see what you can find while you're looking up "Bush is silly" threads. Run, boy - FETCH!

Who knows? Maybe you'll run across a "real" Obama birth certificate from Kenya. Or Canada. Or Australia. Or Zaire. Or Nigeria. Or Indonesia.

Mike

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Saturday, August 22, 2009 8:54 AM

Now, as for the REAL stuff Obama has really blown it on, where do I start?

Wire taps, indefinite detention, Gitmo, still being in Iraq, still being in Afghanistan, now targeting people in Pakistan, not addressing the problems on our own borders, not being more forceful in his dealings with healthcare reform (seriously, we don't NEED any Republican support for this; fuck "bipartisanship".)

Seriously. Give me a worthy opponent in 2012, and my vote's up for grabs. And when I say "worthy", I don't mean John McCain or Dick Cheney or Sarah "I Quit!" Palin. Give me somebody REAL. Give me an actual fiscal conservative, not just someone who says he is and then more than doubles the debt and takes us from a budget surplus to the largest deficits ever seen by any nation on Earth.

Who else have you got?

Mike

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Saturday, August 22, 2009 9:02 AM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important

"However, in defense of the anti-Bushies, our criticism were not JUST about silly stuff. Most of it was pretty damn serious. Treasonous, in fact. Nobody wants to see Bush tried for wearing silly clothes, but many of us would like to see him tried for treason."

Hello,

I'd like to chime in here somewhat in Signy's favor. I'm not quite convinced about the treason aspect of Bush's crimes. It may be so.

But I am convinced that the man tore civil liberties to shreds, endorsed torture (a rose by any other name), and spied on Americans.

I am mad at Obama, because he voted or elected not to pursue these crimes.

But you better believe I'm mad at Bush first, for perpetrating them originally.

I don't like arguments where someone points out something Obama has done wrong, and then it is defended by saying, "But look at what Bush did!" As though that absolves the guy of guilt, just because there may have been a bigger jackass preceding him. As though it was a defense in court to say, "Hey, sure, I murdered five people, but that guy murdered ten!" Bull.

However, I share the frustration of Obama defenders on one point. How is it possible for some people to point and jeer and clamor at this president, while they not only remained silent on the previous president- but actively endorsed his B.S.?!

People don't become right or wrong depending on their political affiliation. They become right and wrong because of the things they do and the things they fail to do. There's only one team here, and it ain't blue or red. We should all collectively get our mad on each and every time some jackass does something stupid. Getting mad only when the jackass is sporting an unfavorable team jersey is foolish.

--Anthony

"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner

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Saturday, August 22, 2009 9:10 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko:
Sure. It's all right there at the bottom of the RWED thread page, under a link that says "Read threads that have been archived."

Go see what you can find while you're looking up "Bush is silly" threads. Run, boy - FETCH!

Gee, Frem, how about you find what I was asking about and I will respond in turn. How does that sound, Frem?

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Saturday, August 22, 2009 9:14 AM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Quote:
How does that sound, Frem?

It sounds like pearls before swine, BDN. If you can't remember what Frem (and I, Rue, HK, Gino, Succotash, and others) have been pointing at for the last- oh five-six years- what should make me think you're gonna bother to think about it THIS time? Not bloody likely.

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Saturday, August 22, 2009 9:40 AM

DREAMTROVE

Quote:
Now, as for the REAL stuff Obama has really blown it on, where do I start?

Wire taps, indefinite detention, Gitmo, still being in Iraq, still being in Afghanistan, now targeting people in Pakistan, not addressing the problems on our own borders, not being more forceful in his dealings with healthcare reform (seriously, we don't NEED any Republican support for this; fuck "bipartisanship".)

Seriously. Give me a worthy opponent in 2012, and my vote's up for grabs. And when I say "worthy", I don't mean John McCain or Dick Cheney or Sarah "I Quit!" Palin. Give me somebody REAL. Give me an actual fiscal conservative, not just someone who says he is and then more than doubles the debt and takes us from a budget surplus to the largest deficits ever seen by any nation on Earth.

Who else have you got?

Mike

Interesting.

Okay, McCain was always a fraud moderate, I always kinda knew, but didn't admit it to myself. Palin is mad hot, and lower class, if she had more time she could have learned to act more candidate like, she's actually far more moderate than her campaign persona.

She would have been so good but they fucked it up (there's a serious problem with any hot chick though: Female jealousy, I think we saw a lot of it in '08.) As for quitting, she was forced to by the GOP who wanted rid of it.

Okay, the republican party sucks, but so does the democratic party. So, alas, do the third parties. The only party I respect at the moment is the tories.

But that said:

Mike

Okay, give me what you want in a candidate. You made a lot of points against the current administration. I personally have nothing against Obama himself, except that he pals around with terrorists (In this case, I'm referring to the Clintons and the movers and shakers in the democratic party, Harry Reid, Nancy Pelosi, all the reasons he's still at war.) Also, I am going to make a prediction: By 2012, Obama's socialism is going to crash the economy. (correction: further crash the economy.) As people say about Hoover and FDR: yes, sure, the economy was headed down because of the Coolidge credit economy over-inflating things, and sure, to some extend it's a set up. The question is, yes, but by how much?

But you make a lot of good points. I don't personally care about the borders and I don't think Obama himself actually has a healthcare plan, and the democrats' plans are all over the map. Sure, some of them are well intentioned, but the more powerful ones will be those with a strong special interest behind them, and I see this coming down to a battle between the insurance companies and the drug companies, and I think they'll end up splitting the kitty on it. Personally, I think this should be done a state level. I mean healthcare, not letting the fatcats split the kitty. Is that a mixed metaphor?

But I'm with you on the foreign policy and fiscal policy issues, I think we could see less globalism, more civil liberties, and more conservationism. I think we need to create someone, but give me your specs. I mean, you're more or less a democrat, give me a platform that you'd vote for. Passed has proven that Governors have more chance than anyone from congress, so we can start soon, creating an opposition candidate.

I think that my create-a-republican plan would have to include a special portion of the budget I call "corporate candy" This is a jar of money. We dish into it, and toss piles to wall street, directly, and try to hit as many people as possible. The plan will be way cheaper than bailouts, military spending, welfare, public works, it will just be outright theft. That will get us our support. We might as well do it in contracts (I came up with a plan a while ago I called "rebuild america" where you give out cost plus contracts to any corporation that would actually do things like rehabilitate the inner cities, etc.) A straight handout would be relatively cheap. That, and free Jesus with every purchase, and I think you could win a GOP primary.

But I want to hear, so fire away, conservative platform you'd actually vote for...

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Saturday, August 22, 2009 9:41 AM

Signy,
You already agreed with me that there was a lot of silliness directed at Bush. Why go back on that now?

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Saturday, August 22, 2009 9:56 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko:
Quote:

I just think the man is grossly inexperienced for the most important job in the world .

Not unlike the last guy .

What kind of on-the-job training do you recommend for "most important job in the world"? How does one get the experience for that? Is there a "second-most important job in the world" that you get promoted from? How'd that work out for Ford? How'd it work out for HW Bush? Or Gore, for that matter?

Mike

Experience is just that , experience .

Your guy is inexperienced .

Not saying he's not going to do a good job .
I hope he does .
What's good for the USA is generally good for the world .

( as opposed to China or Russia or any other big dog )

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Saturday, August 22, 2009 10:02 AM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Quote:
Signy,You already agreed with me that there was a lot of silliness directed at Bush. Why go back on that now?

BDN, you were challenging Frem to refresh your memory on the SERIOUS criticisms about Bush. Do I, Frem, Kwicko, Rue, DT, HK, Gino, Succotash etc need to go back and cover all that old ground again?

WMD: Bush lied.
Linking Saddam to 9-11.
Torture: Approved at the very top.
Refusal to honor FOIA.
Signing statements.
Warrantless wiretapping.
Extraordinary rendition.
Elimination of habeas corpus.
Driving the economy into the ground.
Feeding the rich, starving the poor.
A totally unnecessary invasion.
A totally bobbled response to Katrina?

Do I need to remind you that the Likud policy paper "A Clean Break", which details an Iraqi invasion, was written by Rumsfeld's appointees?
http://www.iasps.org/strat1.htm

That The (so-called} Patriot Act was written BEFORE 9-11?

That Cheney was deeply involved in cherry-picking the "evidence" to invade Iraq? That the Energy Commission (which he chaired) is widely reputed to have worked on a detailed map of Iraq?

That Cheney's and Rove's fingerprints were all over the political firing of State Attorneys?

****As time goes on, more and more will be coming out about the Bush admin misdeeds. It will look worse and worse, not better and better. Yes, that's a prediction. Please don't make me dig this up in five years to remind you. Just tuck this on wherever you keep important memories, and remind YOURSELF that someone got it right. Not you. And you might want to look into your assumptions and figure out how you got so blindsided. *********

BUT WAIT...!

THERE'S MORE!

But I'm not gonna go over it with you anymore. You have some brains. Use them.

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Saturday, August 22, 2009 10:08 AM

Quote:

pointing out that Obama has two books about himself is a smear ?

You're quick to draw that racist card aren't you ?
Obama's race is irrelevant .
( well , to me it is - obviously you have a different vantage point )

I've spent the last eight years bashing Bush43 ( and the Bush-bots , though probably not as gleefully as some would like ) the way things are now with Obama44's acolytes I suspect I'll be bashing them and him for at least the next four years .

I'm not big on socialism ( and I'm Canadian so go figure ) and I'm not big on throwing money at a problem .

Obama strikes me as the sort of politician who feels that money and government can solve all problems .

I think that they just cause new ones .
( without actually fixing the initial conundrum(s) )

So dismiss me as racist , obtuse and sock-puppetty all you like .

Underestimation of opposing views is the weak link in many a liberal's play book .

( the same as many a conservative will assume a moral superiority over his opposite number )

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Saturday, August 22, 2009 10:14 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko:
Quote:
It's just masked under a type condescension that seems to afflict leftist elitists .

So you're whining about being lumped in with a particular group because you're a conservative, and you say it's being done to you because the left are all condescending elitists? What an awesome argument.

While you may not see them as racists, we've got racists aplenty right here on this board. We have people who constantly refer to Obama as "SCAMBO" (a play on "Sambo") or "Obama-dongo", post up video of Zulus charging the (all white) British army in response to why they feel the need to be armed at town hall meetings (you know, because "the natives" just might overrun them if they don't have all their guns with them)...

Yeah, I don't know WHERE anyone might get the idea that there are racists on the right.

If you don't want to be associated with them, distance yourself from them and tell them in no uncertain terms that they're idiots and aren't helping. Otherwise, you're seen as giving tacit approval to their views. Why, it's *almost* as if you're approving of fascism and palling around with domestic terrorists!

Mike

I have posted in about four threads so far , so sorry if I haven't been able to meet any of your resident racists .

And William Ayers was indeed a domestic terrorist . That's not racist or bias . It's a fact .
The Weathermen were terrorists just like the FLQ were terrorists .

The same as Paul Rose up here .
Any politician who allies/consorts with Paul rose is collaborating with a domestic terrorist .
And as such would never , ever gain my support or approval .

( Google Paul Rose and the FLQ to reference what I mean )

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_Rose_%28political_figure%29

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Saturday, August 22, 2009 10:35 AM

WHOZIT

Thank you Barney Frank? Why, he's scum. Are you libs proud to have Frank in your fold? You can have that FAGGOT! Yes I yelled FAGGOT! You libs can keep Frank and all the wierd dirtbags he brings with him......he's all your's.

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Saturday, August 22, 2009 11:17 AM