REAL WORLD EVENT DISCUSSIONS

Tea Party 9/12

POSTED BY: WULFENSTAR
UPDATED: Friday, September 18, 2009 12:33
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Sunday, September 13, 2009 6:41 AM

WULFENSTAR

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg


What do you guys think? Does this momentum have legs? Can it be used to finally bring our government back down to the small, responsible thing it was supposed to be?

In other words: Can this movement generate the momentum to bring our government back in-line with the Constitution?




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Sunday, September 13, 2009 7:13 AM

BYTEMITE


No. It's being controlled by the Republican party, and contaminated with messages that only ultimately hurt the end cause.

I had hopes when I first heard about the movement, but looking back on it, even at the "grass roots" stage the Republican party was very much involved, and organized the first few rallies.

Anyone who thinks that this will lead to revolution and real change in government is fooling themselves. Even if shots are fired, nothing will change, and all the tea party folk look right now to the rest of the nation like the right wing throwing temper tantrums. They have no credibility, no persuasive ability. It's still half of the country against the other, and believing that they can influence change THROUGH TPTB. Why has there been no crackdown on these people? Because they aren't a threat, they are firmly in hand.

For real change, it would have to be followers of both parties to stop following, stop listening, and begin demanding. It would have to be based around a message that reaches out across party lines. It's not happening with the tea party movement.

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Sunday, September 13, 2009 7:51 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Byte's right on. It's a put-up job, just like the disrupters of the tea parties. It's not going anywhere--haven't checked the news yet today, but from what I see on line, they got about 50,000 people (not that many, considering what they claimed to expect), and those they do get are either idjits who swallowed the propaganda hook, line and sinker, some people with legitimate complaints, and/or lobbyist-hired ringers.
Quote:

The event, scheduled intentionally on Sept. 12 to coincide with the anniversary of the day following the Sept. 11 terrorist attacks, was conceived largely by Fox News' Glenn Beck. Beck, the McCarthyite Fox News talk show host who has lost dozens of advertisers for calling Obama a "racist," is a relentless promoter of his 9/12 Project. However, most of the day-to-day organizing has been orchestrated by a now familiar set of lobbyists and Republican operatives who have helped plan anti-Obama "grassroots" tea party events since February. In addition, a set of far-right groups are supporting the event, bringing along self-described "American mob members" to join in on the Obama-bashing.

The top sponsors are the right-wing think tank National Taxpayers Union. Another top sponsor, Tea Party Patriots, is an astroturf website run by FreedomWorks staffers who have rebuffed members objecting to the march's logo. Our Country Deserves Better -- a Republican PAC that has compared Obama to Hitler -- operates the Tea Party Express, a bus tour arriving in DC for the 9/12 march. Other sponsors include the Heartland Institute and the Competitive Enterprise Institute, corporate front groups that claim smoking is good for you and global warming doesn't exist. Both organizations have received millions of dollars from Philip Morris, ExxonMobil and Koch Industries, the largest privately-held company in the United States. The American Conservative Union, another sponsor, is run by David Keene, a lobbyist for a firm that represents private health care companies, including the insurer HealthFirst. Many of these groups -- each of which paid up to $10,000 to FreedomWorks to participate as sponsors -- were pivotal in providing assistance to attendees of rowdy town halls in August and anti-Obama tea party protests. Part of their strategy was encouraging anger and intimidation against lawmakers supporting health care and clean energy reform was part of the strategy.

http://pr.thinkprogress.org/2009/09/pr20090911/index.html

It's a put-up job started by Glen Beck. Need I say more? Freedomworks is behind it; quote Wikipedia:
Quote:

FreedomWorks Foundation, a conservative organization led by former House Majority Leader Dick Armey, organized several groups from across the country for what they billed as a "March on Washington."

FreedomWorks funders have included MetLife, Philip Morris and foundations controlled by the conservative Scaife family, according to tax filings and other records. FreedomWorks is closely tied to its founder, corporate lobbyist and former Republican Congressman Dick Armey, whose former lobbying firm DLA Piper that he resigned in August 2009, represents Bristol Myers Squibb, among other pharmaceutical companies.

In 2008, FreedomWorks was behind the creation of a fake grassroots web site called Angryrenter.com. AngryRenter.com looks a bit like a digital ransom note, with irregular fonts, exclamation points and big red arrows -- all emphasizing prudent renters' outrage over a proposed government bailout for irresponsible homeowners. Though it purports to be a spontaneous uprising, AngryRenter.com is actually a product of an inside-the-Beltway conservative advocacy organization led by Dick Armey, the former House majority leader, and publishing magnate Steve Forbes, a fellow Republican. It's a fake grass-roots effort -- what politicos call an AstroTurf campaign -- that provides a window into the sleight-of-hand ways of Washington.

In December 2004, FreedomWorks employee Sandra Jacques was introduced at a White House economic conference as a "single mom" from Iowa who supported the Bush administration's Social Security privatization plan. According to White House budget director, Jacques was was an example of how Bush promotes his agenda with testimonials from "regular folks." As the New York Times pointed out, however, "Ms. Jaques is not any random single mother. She is the Iowa state director of a conservative advocacy group." [5]

The Times also noted that Jacques "spent much of the past two years as a spokeswoman in Iowa for a group called For Our Grandchildren, which is mounting a nationwide campaign for private savings accounts."

on CNBC in December 2004, Armey "spoke glowingly of 'Rx Outreach,' a national mail order program for low-income people that had just been launched by Express Scripts Inc., a pharmacy benefit management firm based in Maryland Heights, Mo." At the time, FreedomWorks "had been working with Express Scripts' public relations firm, and a week later issued a news release praising Rx Outreach.

"Critics say the arrangement could call into question FreedomWorks' tax-exempt status because it appears that the group was a 'mouthpiece' for hire," wrote the St. Louis Post-Dispatch. Bill Allison of the Center for Public Integrity said, "It's rare to see someone pushing a company this directly. It does look like it's more of a commercial for this company than a discussion of policy."



You wanna join these guys? Go right ahead; but don't believe their propaganda, what you're buying ain't "grass roots" and what you're buying into is lobbyists and organizations whose objective is to keep you DOWN, not give you "freedom"! Yeah, I'm harsh; but the idiocy I see all around me is destroying the Republican Party and they're stupid enough to go along with it; as little viable as our two-party system is, we need at LEAST two parties!

________________________
Together we are greater than the sum of our parts

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Sunday, September 13, 2009 7:57 AM

FREMDFIRMA



Ah, so that would explain why certain sites are currently under DDoS attack by IPs belonging to *.gov and *.mil

Yah, just like the MPO, and Carnegies corporate sponsored "Unions" - what better way to not only control your opposition, but actively sabotage it than running their support organization.

The MPO was supposedly a network (and I think the MPN is what it's called now) for military pagans to protect and assert their rights - and it was not only mandatory pay for play, they always seemed to be handing out contradictory advice which would land you in the brig and/or violated the UCMJ.

And then they fumbled the ball, once... just once, and the newsletters origin was tracked back to a branch of counterintelligence.

They've done naught but change their name, cause they're still using the same graphics, meh.

And the captain they sent to shut me up about it back then made the mistake of confronting me on the live pistol range, complete with some very aggressive conduct right up till it got through his thick west pointy head that I *WAS* at the time holding a loaded M1911 - he oughta be thankful the RO tossed him out before that went places.

It's actually EASY to catch out most false front and honeypot organizations - just track the MONEY.

-F

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Sunday, September 13, 2009 8:01 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Dontcha know Wulf that faux populism is a tool of fascism, and one if its defining characteristics? That's bc this faux populism depends on/ appeals to anti-intellectuals and know-nothing RWA followers who are easily manipulated by TPTB to mindlessly run off a cliff. It's ALL about "the authority" taking control.


Your best defense?

THINK, man! Stop REACTING. Think for all you're worth, and then some! Ask yourself "Who stands to gain? Who stands to lose" and, most importantly... Which one am I really? Not who you aspire to be, or who you identify with, or some ego-driven self image, but your REAL place in this gorram hellhole. Start by following the money. It will open your eyes wide.

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Sunday, September 13, 2009 4:52 PM

WULFENSTAR

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg


Maybe you guys are right. These "Tea-Parties" are nothing more than a bunch of propagandized racists, getting out and spewing idiocy.

I want to hope for more that that.

I want to hope that all Americans, after years of b.s. and lies, of Patriot Acts, and forced insurance... have finally said, enough.

I want to hope that Americans are waking up, and realizing what we should ALL be standing for.

I want to hope that, no matter the source of your anger... based in war, healthcare, racism, socialism, 2a, ect ect... that people are finally saying enough is enough.

That people are saying we want our country back. We want our freedom back. We are tired of all government in our faces, and on our backs.

We want to be free again.

But, I could be wrong.


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Monday, September 14, 2009 3:18 AM

HERO


Quote:

Originally posted by Wulfenstar:
What do you guys think?


I was sadly disappointed by the lack of tea.

H

"Hero. I have come to respect you"- Chrisisall, 2009.

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Monday, September 14, 2009 3:28 AM

FREMDFIRMA


Without a doubt, some of em are, Wulf - it's just that they've no idea who's really at the rudder of the boat they jumped on.

Just cause there's a lot of astroturfing doesn't mean there isn't real grass in there, but the problem is that the bastards are in charge of the purse strings, which puts them in control.

That said, occasionally it *IS* possible to steal a march on them by subverting their agenda once you have enough cards in YOUR deck to make a play.

Case in point: The local business owners who put me up for city council, knowing the remainder of the members were gonna jump ship as soon as I started tearing into them - and their whole intent was to get themselves on the city council via a bypass of the elections process cause they were just as corrupt - they *expected* me to throw in the towel and drop the ramp for them to climb into power, in part because they bought into the same propaganda* about Anarchists most folk do and didn't quite understand what they were dealing with, which got them caught out flatfooted when I dropped the ramp to power ON them and bullied, cajoled and wheedled qualified folk who had no ambition into the job right overtop the bastards.

They're STILL pissed about that, since it made them look like the corrupt assholes they were, and I'll note the towns water main is now being replaced as we speak, which in combination with actually getting the main drag repaved for the bid I set initially, puts the capper on it as a complete irrevocable and undeniable "win" for the local population - I was betting that the economic crunch would eventually start hitting contractors enough that they'd stop holding out for ridiculous amounts of graft, and damn me I was right, although I'd rather have not been.
(would have preferred economic recovery, yanno?)

Think about it this way Wulf - once they let you ride the tiger, once they hand you the reins...
Who the hell is gonna make you give it back ?


I doubt folk will coordinate well enough to take the movement away from the corpies, but surely it's worth a try.

-Frem

*PS - Remember, the folks who told you all the "evils" of Anarchism are ALSO the same folk who sold you your perceptions of Hippies - why would that be any more valid now that you've begun to realize how fulla shit the source was ?

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Monday, September 14, 2009 6:49 AM

WULFENSTAR

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg


Y'know... saying that those who are upset are being pulled by the strings is silly.

Yeah, the political parties on both sides have jumped on the bandwagons of both, and even used their influence to fuel them...(No blood for Oil, anyone?)

But that doesn't mean that the anger, the rage, the desire for change and hope for tomorrow is any less real.

Yeah, this go around, its folks like Hannity and Limbaugh stirring the pot....last time it was the libs.

Doesn't change the fact that people want an end to the governments overreaching "authority". Just that the ones helping to drive it have changed.


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Monday, September 14, 2009 7:03 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


What you're not "grokking", Wulf, is that the vast majority of Americans are NOT sick of what you enumerate...it's just that the minority are more vocal, more willing to stand up and carry Obama-is-a-Nazi posters and carry their guns to political events, more fired up by believing they're part of some kind of "movement". It doesn't seem that way if you listen to Faux Noise, but that's 'cuz they EARN THEIR LIVING pandering to the fruitcases on the right, so they talk like there's a huge national movement to stop the government.

But it's THIS government...they were quite happy to laud the last one and make it sound like the vast majority of Americans were in FAVOR of what they were doing...and that what they were doing was minimizing government, making us a saner, healthier society. Meanwhile, that administration was busy racking up the biggest deficit in history, increasing government hugely, and spending money like water to stroke "nationalism" and take us into an absurd war.

They were so right that Obama won by a landslide, so now they want an end to the governments overreaching "authority", and they make it sound like they have most of the country behind them.

They don't. Pure and simple. By far, most Americans just want to go about their lives and deal with their personal challenges, and don't give a damn what the government does as long as it doesn't come to their attention or someone fires them up to think they're righteous. It's human nature.

You are among a group of thinking people who decry many things about our government, some who are anarchists, one Taoist (that I know of), people who CARE. The vast majority don't--some of them are fired up to protest, some of THOSE actually know what they're protesting and why, but most of them are just fired up, their hate, racism and fear pandered to by the people who know how to pander and manipulate best.

Don't let this place fool you...most Americans will go right on as they have once the furor dies down, not even voting in a decent percentage. It's a flash in the pan instigated to keep things the way they ARE, nothing more.

________________________
Together we are greater than the sum of our parts

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Monday, September 14, 2009 7:08 AM

WULFENSTAR

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg


Never argued that what those previously in "power" did was right.

However.

I will say this. Both political parties, the lefts before, and the right now... have been able to tap into how the American people are feeling, and in most cases try and exploit it.

I don't think this is going to go away.

And, Im glad for that.


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Monday, September 14, 2009 7:27 AM

FREMDFIRMA


Quote:

able to tap into how the American people are feeling, and in most cases try and exploit it.

Not even limited to those.

For all that Forquet is one of the most devastating pieces of hardware I've ever laid hands one, the real truth is that I've done far, FAR more damage to the powers that be with a less obviously threatening weapon.


-F

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Monday, September 14, 2009 7:51 AM

BYTEMITE


Wulf: Hannity and Limbaugh don't stir the pot, I can promise you that. Do you remember a couple weeks ago when the guns started showing up at town halls and the radioheads all said a big "Oops"? Hannity started trying to calm people down with a "violence is not the answer" lecture and Glen Beck has a particularly annoying and hilarious message about how "turning the other cheek" will ultimately get these protesters what they want. Really? REALLY?

Yep, sounds for SURE like they actually want to change the system, and that they're not just ranting irresponsibly about mostly fabricated and taken out of context bullcrap for ratings, with volatile results...

Since they started on that, have you noticed a slight drop off in either the amount of armed protesters at the town halls, as well as a lack of coverage? I don't want anyone to shoot anyone at these townhall meetings, not even Obama (ultimately, I think that a violent revolution might actually be counterproductive to change, as revolutions tend to get grabbed and controlled by various interests), but I think that this backpedaling is about as transparent as it gets.

Frem: Wow, you succeeded on getting the road paved for the bid you wanted? Doesn't that mean you have a 100% success rate for the town projects you implemented while you were in office?

Better be careful, regardless of economic troubles, that kind of well-budgeted job performance tends to get people re-elected. :)

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Monday, September 14, 2009 8:04 AM

WULFENSTAR

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg


My wife has said that words are meaningless...(granted shes always yelling at me about something, and I don't pay much attention to her... so she might have a point... heheheh)

But, I would rather it came down to a gentle, non-violent, restructuring of the government (to a more Constitutional, non-intrusive way) than some Rambo style purging.

However, whatever gets the job done.

And to those who think that the status quo is fine..

"Nuts"

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Monday, September 14, 2009 8:26 AM

FREMDFIRMA


Quote:

Originally posted by Bytemite:
Frem: Wow, you succeeded on getting the road paved for the bid you wanted? Doesn't that mean you have a 100% success rate for the town projects you implemented while you were in office?

Better be careful, regardless of economic troubles, that kind of well-budgeted job performance tends to get people re-elected. :)


Yes, the main drag AND the water main.

Although some asswipe didn't secure the salt stock I had laid in for them and some other township who didn't wanna get reamed at scalper prices made off with a bunch of it, pffttt - who else would want it, who else would NEED it ?

As for re-election, given the manner of my resignation, I kinda doubt it - they were honestly considering civil commitment for psychological evaluation at the end of that till they realized I was maliciously yanking their chain dangerously hard.

They're happy enough that it all got done, but the idea of me moving back there gives them the screaming willies, bigtime.

The cruelest thing you can do to anyone, is find out what they really desire in their hearts the most...
AND THEN GIVE IT TO EM, GOOD AND HARD!

-Frem

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Monday, September 14, 2009 9:58 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Quote:

have been able to tap into how the American people are feeling, and in most cases try and exploit it.
I maintain that what is happening now is tapping into the WORST of the American psyche and manipulating/stoking it to act in ways that are truly UNAmerican in the extreme.

When did you see the left get people riled up to the point of talking secession; when did the left ever attack a Republican administration so CONSISTENTLY, daily, overtly and viciously as what is happening now?

Don't tell me about demonstrators on the left--they existed, yes, but they got clamped down on for wearing anti-Bush BUTTONS and t-shirts; nobody's clamping down on the guys wearing guns to presidential events.

What demonstrations there were didn't begin to compare to what's happening now, and this is manipulating the fear and hatred of small-minded and in many cases ignorant people to fight FOR big business' interests, FOR Big Pharm, FOR insurance companies, FOR continuation of the status quo. Does that truly make sense to you???

It's not about big government or the actions of the current administration, in large part. It's about the path to anarchy (the worst kind of anarchy, not the real thing), about "anything to further our agenda"; it's about riling people up with blatant lies to get them to bring down an administration without offering any kind of alternative. That's not healthy for any country; you better hope for ALL our sakes that it's not going to last or accelerate!

________________________
Together we are greater than the sum of our parts

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Monday, September 14, 2009 10:02 AM

WULFENSTAR

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg


As an answer:


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Monday, September 14, 2009 10:04 AM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!


For all that Forquet is one of the most devastating pieces of hardware I've ever laid hands one, the real truth is that I've done far, FAR more damage to the powers that be with a less obviously threatening weapon.


Do you throw this thing ... or what ?

***************************************************************

Silence is consent.

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Monday, September 14, 2009 10:06 AM

WULFENSTAR

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg



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Monday, September 14, 2009 10:09 AM

WULFENSTAR

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg



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Monday, September 14, 2009 10:22 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Oh, gee whiz! Only watched the first bit of the first one because it was obvious, and by the way, he lied through his teeth several times--either thru ignorance or deliberately--you've given us a perfect example of what I've just been saying: They're pandering to the fruitcakes, the ultra-right-wing nutbags, and here's one of them now to prove my point!

This guy is promoting scecessionism, so I can only assume he's ignorant of the realities of it, or so blinded by his own stupidity (as opposed to ignorance) that he gets a kick out of standing in front of a camera with a mask on his face blathering idiocy nobody will take the time to listen to. Oh, but wait a minute, I assume you DID, or you wouldn't have posted them...? Wow.

So you've got no meaningful retort, just videos of exactly the wing-nuts inspired to give vent to their wing-nuttery? Hooo-kay.

________________________
Together we are greater than the sum of our parts

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Monday, September 14, 2009 11:13 AM

WULFENSTAR

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg


Imagine this happening in D.C.



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Monday, September 14, 2009 11:19 AM

WULFENSTAR

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg


"This guy is promoting scecessionism"

WHERE?

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Monday, September 14, 2009 11:23 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


That's no tribute, it's a bad desecration of "V"--my all-time favorite movie. He wasn't advocating an uprising of the populace, he was advocating a PEACEFUL PROTEST by them; he was willing to do the dirty work and pay the price himself. And to make ANY comparison between the current government and that of V is pathetic, truly pathetic.

Y'know, Wulf, sometimes I understand why people feel about you the way they do. It's like you're two people--one reasoned individual who is able to ask good questions and make good points, one radical, out-there nutbag incapable of debate of any form. Weird...

Now I have to go rewatch V and get the bad taste out of my mouth...

________________________
Together we are greater than the sum of our parts

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Monday, September 14, 2009 11:26 AM

WULFENSTAR

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg


Just call me Dr Jekyll.

and as to my Hyde... well, he is that which is necessary to protect that which I hold dear.

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Monday, September 14, 2009 11:30 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Quote:

WHERE?
The first one. He is advocating state's rights, but at the same time armed revolt. I'm assuming attaining those state's rights via armed revolt means he doesn't want to be part of the union.

Mostly it's just verbiage we've heard so many times before advocating anti-government sentiment/actions/etc. I've got better uses for my time than to listen to someone rant on u-tube.

________________________
Together we are greater than the sum of our parts

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Monday, September 14, 2009 11:36 AM

WULFENSTAR

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg


Yeah, u-tube is full of shit.

But sometimes, its actually a good way for people from all over the country to make their voices heard.

ETA: Besides wernt you supposed to be watching V?

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Monday, September 14, 2009 11:38 AM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


And in the manner of Wulfie's typical "revolutionary", this guy also is far too much a coward to stand behind the conviction of his words.

I swear, sometimes I think Wulfie's just a government plant, here to try to drum up recruits for his phony revolution, trying to run some kind of goddamn sting operation on us. Problem is, he's so fucking amateur at it that nobody around here would buy into his bullshit. The same way Frem winds up the might-whitey-righties to throw themselves off a cliff and cripple their own movement with their inadvertent self-immolation, Wulf is trying to gather others to his own brand of armed resistance. Thing is, he's trying to recruit from people who really aren't interested in armed revolution, because while they don't TRUST their government, they also aren't willing to go down shooting and thereby make the government the hero of the day. Koresh tried it; didn't work out great for him or his followers. They could've actually achieved something, but instead they decided to open fire, at which point nothing they had to say was going to penetrate the mainstream media.

Wulf: the Hippies faced down lots of armed resistance, and except for one instance at Kent State University in Ohio, it was the Hippies who won, while hardly firing a shot. Actually, the hippies won that skirmish, too, but at too high a cost. Still, it was the armed forces that came out looking like monsters for opening up on a group of clearly unarmed students bent on inflicting peace and love on their fellow man. Go for your armed revolution. Those fail all the damn time. But an unarmed popular resistance is ALWAYS the way to go. Civil disobedience has worked every time. The only thing I don't get is why the Palestinians don't just lay down arms and refuse to comply with the Israelis. Don't shoot, don't fight back, just meet at the border crossings and sit down and refuse to cooperate. The Israelis will then have but two options: Talk to the Palestinians and work with them in a cooperative effort to actually move forward, or open fire, which will instantly turn the world to the Palestinian side of the argument.

Your days of armed revolution are long past. Even when it works and topples a regime, can you honestly say that what comes after has proven to be BETTER, at least in the recent past? Ask the French how their little revolution worked out. It always seems like a good idea, but then you've got a cadre in power who are clearly willing to kill to get that power - and why should they stop now that they've actually GOT the power? That's the part you tend to overlook: the "...and THEN what happens?" part of the equation.

You'd be better served by showing up at Obama's rallies and just turning your back on the man, refusing to speak or cooperate, than you would by trying to shout him down or intimidate others by strapping on your big gun to show what a bad-ass you are. The latter has been done to death, and it never had anything but a deleterious effect. The former hasn't been tried, and being that it's something NEW, it just might get the media's attention. "Why are you turning your back on these people, your representatives, your senators, your President?" "Because they refuse to listen to The People, and as such, we have nothing left to say to them, and will let our votes do the talking."

Try it. Worst case, it has no effect. But your armed revolution is guaranteed to have the OPPOSITE effect of what you're hoping for. You're actually thinking that if one guy stands up and starts shooting, the rest of the crowd will holler "WOLVERINES!" and jump in with him in support of him. It ain't that way. If I were carrying at a rally and some numbnut started shooting, I'd take aim for HIM and stop that shit right quick. And guess who'd be hailed as the hero of the day? Not the dead guy.

To paraphrase Josey Wales (a fictional character, mind you), everybody's got to have something to live for, but dying ain't much of a living, boy.

Mike

Old friend charity
Cruel twisted smile
And the smile signals emptiness
For me
Starless and Bible black

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Monday, September 14, 2009 11:40 AM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

Originally posted by Niki2:
That's no tribute, it's a bad desecration of "V"--my all-time favorite movie. He wasn't advocating an uprising of the populace, he was advocating a PEACEFUL PROTEST by them; he was willing to do the dirty work and pay the price himself. And to make ANY comparison between the current government and that of V is pathetic, truly pathetic.

Y'know, Wulf, sometimes I understand why people feel about you the way they do. It's like you're two people--one reasoned individual who is able to ask good questions and make good points, one radical, out-there nutbag incapable of debate of any form. Weird...

Now I have to go rewatch V and get the bad taste out of my mouth...

________________________
Together we are greater than the sum of our parts



Yes, Evie... Now you understand...

(Sorry, Niks. Couldn't resist.)

Mike

Old friend charity
Cruel twisted smile
And the smile signals emptiness
For me
Starless and Bible black

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Monday, September 14, 2009 11:47 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


No, you're right, today he's being an ass. It's like some days he takes his pills and others he doesn't...is that it? To respond to elsewhere--I'm not much aware of his racism, as I don't read a lot of threads whose titles I'm wary of, and NONE that are initially posted by PN, and sometimes I don't get far into a thread before I decide it's not worth it.

So I guess the only interaction I've had with Wulf has been in the threads where he's made sense, on the days he's made sense? 'Cuz today he's just wasting space on my screen and behaving ridiculously. 'Sides, I have a REAL sore spot for people who fuck with V for their own agenda when they don't "grok" it one whit. Grrr...argh!

Been here waaaay too long today anyway, time to find that damned self-control button and pull myself away (kicking and screaming no doubt). Maybe tomorrow will bring more interesting things here...and who knows, maybe Wulf will make sense tomorrow?

________________________
Together we are greater than the sum of our parts

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Tuesday, September 15, 2009 4:37 AM

WULFENSTAR

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg


Lol.

Sorry if the V reference upset you.

But it IS apropos when one talks about a tyrannical government. And yes, I believe our government has been sliding into tyranny for a looong time.


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Tuesday, September 15, 2009 5:49 AM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!


But you only got upset when it looked like medical care was going to go to 'them'. THEN it became intolerable tyranny.

***************************************************************

Silence is consent.

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Tuesday, September 15, 2009 6:06 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Good gawd man, I'm beginning to lose all hope for you! If you truly, honestly believe we are headed for some kind of V dictatorship or something, there is no hope whatsoever, you are a lost cause and seriously in need of...something!

It's not going to happen, dear. Bush/Cheney was about as close as we'll EVER get--the pendulum invariably swings back, it always has and always will. America has many flaws, Americans as well and our government even more...but we're not that stupid, nor will there ever be enough sheep among us to allow it to happen. Don't tell me "it's happened to other countries", because we're not other countries...I don't believe it could happen here any more than Australia or Canada--we're young countries, without hundreds of years of conquest and oppression behind us, and we're too individualistic for me to ever believe a Hitler is possible here.

Bush/Cheney is as close as we've EVER come, and despite Cheney's dream of a "permanent Republican majority", look how that ended up? And always will. If you truly believe V is on the horizon for us...well, why bother? I'll leave you to your dreams of apocalypse...

________________________
Together we are greater than the sum of our parts

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Tuesday, September 15, 2009 6:39 AM

BYTEMITE


Actually, in a recent thread, Wulf said he liked the health care plan except for the mandate part of it. I'm pretty much right there with him.

I think the tyranny of the government has always been here, but I think a lot of this recent outcry is the belief that Democrats are tyrants, but not Republicans. Only way I can reconcile the lack of outcry about big government during the Bush years. Seem to recall there was some during the Clinton years...? The last fiscal conservative I know of who ran for office was Goldwater.

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Tuesday, September 15, 2009 6:45 AM

BYTEMITE


EDIT: whoa, that was weird. Board glitch.

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Tuesday, September 15, 2009 6:46 AM

BYTEMITE


Quote:

Good gawd man, I'm beginning to lose all hope for you! If you truly, honestly believe we are headed for some kind of V dictatorship or something, there is no hope whatsoever, you are a lost cause and seriously in need of...something!

It's not going to happen, dear. Bush/Cheney was about as close as we'll EVER get--the pendulum invariably swings back, it always has and always will. America has many flaws, Americans as well and our government even more...but we're not that stupid, nor will there ever be enough sheep among us to allow it to happen. Don't tell me "it's happened to other countries", because we're not other countries...I don't believe it could happen here any more than Australia or Canada--we're young countries, without hundreds of years of conquest and oppression behind us, and we're too individualistic for me to ever believe a Hitler is possible here.

Bush/Cheney is as close as we've EVER come, and despite Cheney's dream of a "permanent Republican majority", look how that ended up? And always will. If you truly believe V is on the horizon for us...well, why bother? I'll leave you to your dreams of apocalypse...



Well, nice to know I'm doomed.

Niki... What does the "pendulum" "swing back" to? You think that Bush and Cheney were the worst our nation could get, then HOW COME we haven't repealed the Patriot Act, or wiretapping, or come out with a strong position against waterboarding and torture? Obama came out against it, but I've read testimony on torture from members of his administration that sound like Dick Cheney prepped them! I see hints in Senate Bills about training programs for the CIA and FBI named after Senators who have come out IN FAVOUR of waterboarding and torture!

How have we gotten better, and why do you think that changing hands between Democrats and Republicans halts the slow march to complete autocracy, if the wrongs of the past administrations remain for future administrations to build on?

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Tuesday, September 15, 2009 6:52 AM

WULFENSTAR

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg


The problem is, you have to understand that ANY overreaching government is on its way to tyranny.

I think that the federal government should only have 4 roles: 1. To help regulate business (in order to prevent Enron type deals, and to make sure workers are treated fairly) 2. To insure the health and well being of the environment. 3. To protect our borders from unlawful entry, and or attack. 4. In cases of natural disasters, to provide assistance.

The local governments, on a state level have several jobs to do. 1. Provide the highest standard of education possible to all state citizens. 2. Keep the roads in up keep 3. SOME police. But they will be used ONLY for emergencies. Not as revenue generators.

The government, both local and federal should NOT be allowed, however to 1. Spy on an American citizen. In any way at all. 2. Create laws which are unenforceable, or are only used to generate revenue. 3. Impinge on a persons right to do whatever they want with their own body. 4. Regulate any tool useful in self-defense. 5. Be allowed to tax a citizen more than 10 percent of their pay. 6. Force mandatory anything (drug tests, healthcare ect) on the citizens. 7. Use citizen taxes to pay for any bailouts of any companies. 8. Create any law which regulates the use of lethal force in defense of ones self or property. 9. Send troops to war without a declaration OF war.

All I can think of of the top of my head.

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Tuesday, September 15, 2009 7:36 AM

WULFENSTAR

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg


BTW, Kwick...

Awesome "Wolverines!" reference... :)

lol




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Tuesday, September 15, 2009 8:29 AM

WULFENSTAR

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg


Jeeze... did I kill discussion?

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Tuesday, September 15, 2009 8:36 AM

PIZMOBEACH

... fully loaded, safety off...


Quote:

Originally posted by Wulfenstar:




where have I seen that same kind of imagery? Hmmm...



It's universal: young men want to be revolutionaries and blow shit up - how do you make them think their way out of giving into such a strong impulse?
Any thoughts on why nature works like that? The seem equally convinced that destroying it to the ground and starting over is for the better.

Scifi movie music + Firefly dialogue clips, 24 hours a day - http://www.scifiradio.com Now available on your iPhone


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Tuesday, September 15, 2009 8:39 AM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!


"... except for the mandate part ..."

And that is ... ?

If you are talking about "mandatory" (different from mandate) then I am ALMOST there with you.

I don't think we should be required to pay premiums to a for-profit company. If you are talking about the public option, I disagree.

While I would much rather have a single-payer plan (like Canada and the rest of the developed - and sane - world) the fact is that people who have no health insurance at all will end up being paid for by the government - that's you and me. If they are going to be using government resources, it makes sense to 1) have them pay a premium and 2) get them regular care so that they don't end up in the ER at much greater expense.

This is not my preferred solution. But out of the options being considered, it is the only realistic way to get the 51 million USers without health insurance some form of regular medical care.

Unless you are with SergeantX in which he says - everyone pays for themselves and if your don't have it - too bad for you.


***************************************************************

Don't die with a lot of fuss.

Just die.

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Tuesday, September 15, 2009 8:46 AM

WULFENSTAR

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg


Rue...

"This is not my preferred solution. But out of the options being considered, it is the only realistic way to get the 51 million USers without health insurance some form of regular medical care."

The number keeps going up or down, depending on who and what, political party, is saying them.


"Don't die with a lot of fuss.

Just die."

Wow. JUST from discussions, talks, back and forth over the internet (of all places)... you have become "radical"?

And yet, you would give ME shit about making a stand?

"Unless you are with SergeantX in which he says - everyone pays for themselves and if your don't have it - too bad for you."

Ive already said my piece on that in other threads. I think there needs to be insurance reforms, (i.e. some REAL regulation on it) not healthcare reform.




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Tuesday, September 15, 2009 9:04 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Quote:

Wow. JUST from discussions, talks, back and forth over the internet (of all places)... you have become "radical"?
Wulf, I've known Rue for a long time. Rue is a radical in ways you may never understand.

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Tuesday, September 15, 2009 9:04 AM

BYTEMITE


Quote:

Originally posted by rue:
"... except for the mandate part ..."

And that is ... ?

If you are talking about "mandatory" (different from mandate) then I am ALMOST there with you. I don't think we should be required to pay premiums to a for-profit company.



That's the one.

Quote:

While I would much rather have a single-payer plan (like Canada and the rest of the developed - and sane - world) the fact is that people who have no health insurance at all will end up being paid for by the government - that's you and me. If they are going to be using government resources, it makes sense to 1) have them pay a premium and 2) get them regular care so that they don't end up in the ER at much greater expense.

This is not my preferred solution. But out of the options being considered, it is the only realistic way to get the 51 million USers without health insurance some form of regular medical care.



I understand the poor without health insurance is a big cost in the medical community, that the poor work the most dangerous jobs and have the most exposure to illness, but are they really the biggest monetary sink? It seems like there are so many other sources of waste in the medical system, it seems like the money from cutting the other stuff, like this health care bill might propose, should be able to cover people who don't have insurance.

And regardless of these "exemptions" for the truly poor... How is mandatory insurance, punishable by law if you don't have it, going to solve this problem? Am I gonna see homeless guys filling out exemption forms on the street corner now? What if you don't qualify for exemption, but after a few years of inflation, you can't afford health insurance? What then?

I don't like the... mandatory mandate whatever healthcare. Smells like a scam to me. And if the public option fails, well, guess who's left, and who we are now LEGALLY OBLIGATED to buy insurance from?

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Tuesday, September 15, 2009 9:05 AM

WULFENSTAR

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg


Lol

Thats the problem. I DO understand them.


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Tuesday, September 15, 2009 9:13 AM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!


"The number keeps going up or down ..."
And once again --- you are wrong. Over the last decade, it has gone consistently UP. Take a look at the chart - p 20
http://www.census.gov/prod/2008pubs/p60-235.pdf

"... depending on who and what, political party, is saying them."
That is according to the CENSUS BUREAU - not a political party - doofus.

"you have become 'radical'?"
I am paraphrasing SergeantX's position. It is not mine. I suspect you couldn't tell what I think by the fact that I referred to single payer-systems as 'sane'.

"I think there needs to be insurance reforms ..."
Despite the fact that insurance companies have failed over, and over, and over to meet the needs of people (though they ARE good at making a profit, so that makes them good ! <<< note: sarcasm) you expect them to somehow be motivated by laws to do better - rather than be motivated to create and find loopholes. You know what they say about insanity - right ?

But I agree with what SignyM pointed out - the insurance companies can't have it two ways, and neither can you. The government cannot be both so incompetent that it will never be able to provide for people, AND at the same time an unfair competitor to private insurance.


***************************************************************

Silence is consent.

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Tuesday, September 15, 2009 9:37 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Quote:

But I agree with what SignyM pointed out - the insurance companies can't have it two ways, and neither can you. The government cannot be both so incompetent that it will never be able to provide for people, AND at the same time an unfair competitor to private insurance.

Right on.

________________________
Together we are greater than the sum of our parts

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Tuesday, September 15, 2009 9:43 AM

WULFENSTAR

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg


Either way, the government has no business in forcing me into some kind of insurance.


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Tuesday, September 15, 2009 10:02 AM

BLUESUNCOMPANYMAN


Quote:

Originally posted by SignyM:
Rue is a radical in ways you may never understand.

To me, the only thing radical about Rue is a zeal for coat-tailing posters like you or Kwick. I've never read much orginal content in her posts, but she represents herself as a rather good follower by repeating and supporting those she agrees with.

Radicals aren't followers, but every radical movement needs them. How far would Lenin have gotten 1917 had he not controlled a few thousand Rues to drag shopkeepers out of their businesses in Moscow and impail them on pitchforks?

Oh and BTW, I have a copy of The Worldly Philosophers coming to me soon. In these past 2 years you have led me to the conclusion that I cannot rebuke collectivists without at least attempting to understand them.







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Tuesday, September 15, 2009 10:06 AM

BYTEMITE


Oh, I'm not worried about the public option driving the insurance companies out of business. On the contrary, I'm pretty sure they'll be able to break the public option with the help of their government buddies, and then what?

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