Help me - I'm confused by racial labels by pizmobeach

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg

Ok... Im not being racist in answering this, but this the true answer...

If you are bi-racial, you are considered whatever the lowest blood is in your veins.

Black/white= black

White/hispanic= hispanic

Asian/black= black

Asian/white= Eurasian.

Ok, everyone don't jump on me for this but this is the truth

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Monday, September 21, 2009 3:29 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)

What the fuck is "lowest blood"?

Where do you even come up with this shit, and how is it you DON'T think you're going to get called on it for handing out utter and complete crap like your "lowest blood" theory?

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Monday, September 21, 2009 3:31 PM

... fully loaded, safety off...

Quote:
Originally posted by Wulfenstar:
Ok... Im not being racist in answering this, but this the true answer...

If you are bi-racial, you are considered whatever the lowest blood is in your veins.

Black/white= black

White/hispanic= hispanic

Asian/black= black

Asian/white= Eurasian.

Ok, everyone don't jump on me for this but this is the truth

Typical empty response - if you want to antagonize libs get a better riff, this one's old.

Wait - olive branch - do you mean "least" and not "lowest?" Pls help my liberal bleeding heart want to feel good about you Woof...

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Monday, September 21, 2009 3:51 PM

FREMDFIRMA

I don't think he's *agreeing* with it, just pointing out how a lot of our social consciousness works whether we like it or not.

I don't subscribe to it, nor may you - but a lot of folks do, and yes, it's asinine.

To this day when I write a report I wince at the need to describe people by race, and a large part of me wants to write "Young male, shade sixty, 5'8" 140lbs..." instead - but no one would know WTF I was talkin about it, sadly.

-F

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Monday, September 21, 2009 4:05 PM

KWICKO

Sorry, Frem, but I've gotta call BS on this one.

Wulf uses terms like "lowest blood" and says "this the true answer" - which to me sounds exactly like the stuff the neo-Nazi assholes spew.

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Monday, September 21, 2009 4:17 PM

... fully loaded, safety off...

Quote:
Originally posted by Fremdfirma:
I don't think he's *agreeing* with it, just pointing out how a lot of our social consciousness works whether we like it or not.

I don't subscribe to it, nor may you - but a lot of folks do, and yes, it's asinine.

To this day when I write a report I wince at the need to describe people by race, and a large part of me wants to write "Young male, shade sixty, 5'8" 140lbs..." instead - but no one would know WTF I was talkin about it, sadly.

-F

I can't tell if he's being genuine, or a contrarian or just enjoying the attention. I think you are generous about Wulf's intentions, and maybe even naive (if that's possible). But you have your own reasons. He's just *young* in my book, and that's no problem, just the way it is.
For the sake of perspective, I try to make it a habit of thinking of things 25 years ahead looking back. As in, what do we think of the 80's now? In 25 years are we going to be thinking the same way about race? And I do not have any naive notions about what it may be - probably no different. But it may be that we are honest about the make up - someone who is Fiddy Fiddy is every bit as much correct to call themselves White as they do to have the MSM call them Black.
No way we'll never be color blind, but losing negative associations because of color? Why not?

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Monday, September 21, 2009 4:25 PM

HKCAVALIER

Wull, Wulf's not far from the racist truth of these things as I've come to know 'em. Folks of one race often see anyone with mixed blood as being properly a member of the other race, they don't trust them, ostracize them as "half-casts."

So racist whites see anyone who's half black as black. This goes back to the old days of anti-miscegenation laws in this country that stated that anyone 1/8 African or more by blood was legally black. I've seen black people turn around and ostracize their half-white children as not "really" black, not trustworthy by virtue of their genetic make-up. Native Americans I've seen can also be strongly prejudiced against half-white/half native children. Interesting that whites ostracize children with what they consider "inferior" blood and some other races ostracize half-white children as being tainted with the blood of the oppressor.

So, yeah, it's an uneasy form of de facto submission to some pretty archaic and discredited values that Obama be considered "black" in casual conversation in this country. I think he can say that though, because it is his "blackness" that is at issue so much of the time after all. His whiteness, not so much. And interestingly, it's been black friends of mine who have been most likely to emphasise that Obama is not black. We have a window on the trials and tribulations of being mixed-race in America in the person of our President. Also, he allies himself with black culture, speaks as a member of that community more so than as a member of any particular white community in this country. In an ideal world mixed-race children would absolutely have the right to define themselves, ally themselves with the heritage of their choosing.

"White" is such a strange "ethnicity" in this country. As the presumptive most representative "race" of American, it so often seems to be presented as an absence of ethnicity, or some kind of raceless race. Identifiable white American culture, country music for instance, tends to be roundly despised by anyone in this country who wishes to be considered sophisticated or even, in some arenas, intelligent. Is this white self-hatred? In such a climate of white denial, it seems the mixed-race child might gravitate to his or her non-white heritage.

Add to this confusion the brutal history of so-called white pride movements and you get some pretty effed up ideas about race, identity and culture.

HKCavalier

Hey, hey, hey, don't be mean. We don't have to be mean, because, remember, no matter where you go, there you are.

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Monday, September 21, 2009 4:58 PM

Sometimes you own the libs. Sometimes, the libs own you.

Quote:
Originally posted by Wulfenstar:
Ok... Im not being racist in answering this, but this the true answer...

If you are bi-racial, you are considered whatever the lowest blood is in your veins.

Black/white= black

White/hispanic= hispanic

Asian/black= black

Asian/white= Eurasian.

Ok, everyone don't jump on me for this but this is the truth

Uh-huh... Well using terms like 'lowest blood' is pretty much the definition of racism.

I don't whether you really want people to jump on you or not - either way you're coming across as an idiot. This is a difficult subject - too difficult for you. Know your limitations, keep out of this whole subject. My advice. Or expect to get 'jumped on'/shot down like an idiot.

Heads should roll

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Monday, September 21, 2009 5:21 PM

... fully loaded, safety off...

Quote:
Originally posted by HKCavalier:

"White" is such a strange "ethnicity" in this country. As the presumptive most representative "race" of American, it so often seems to be presented as an absence of ethnicity, or some kind of raceless race. Identifiable white American culture, country music for instance, tends to be roundly despised by anyone in this country who wishes to be considered sophisticated or even, in some arenas, intelligent. Is this white self-hatred? In such a climate of white denial, it seems the mixed-race child might gravitate to his or her non-white heritage.

"Raceless race." Damn it if you don't write like DT sometimes... and I mean that in a good/funny/ironic way.

White self-hate? No, at least not for me. The "white group" is so large there are so many reasons and other hate triggers that I really don't think skin color is the reason. That could just be city/country prejudice.

My white friends and I have this joke amongst ourselves: "Damn! We are so tired of white people! We KNOW all about white people. We know what they are going to say and do so how about some people of color?"

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Monday, September 21, 2009 5:29 PM

Sometimes you own the libs. Sometimes, the libs own you.

To answer the main question of this thread, my view would be that the label white or black for a half black/half white person is simply determined by what distinguishes them most from society at large. Of course you can refer to them as half-white, but if you want to be lazy and describe things with just one word (which is how words are invented and gain popular use) you would plump for 'black' over 'white' - to be forced to call someone like obama 'white' in a predominantly white society, would be an unnatural, bland and *undescriptive* description I think.

For some wider perspective, I have a half black/half white friend who travelled to Uganda several years ago, and was surrounded with excited calls in the streets from the natives about his presence, that of a 'Muzungu' - 'white foreigner'.

Heads should roll

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Monday, September 21, 2009 5:32 PM

DREAMTROVE

Quote:
Wulf babbled:
Ok... Im not being racist in answering this, but this the true answer...
If you are bi-racial, you are considered whatever the lowest blood is in your veins.
Black/white= black
White/hispanic= hispanic
Asian/black= black
Asian/white= Eurasian.
Ok, everyone don't jump on me for this but this is the truth

Okay, I'm second to say WTF is lowest blood? I think Mike said it first. That was my first thought as well.

Having studied genetics, I know that there is a form of genetic dominance due to the number of copies of particular genes you have. This is not Mendelian genetics. It's simply if you have something that has 8z genes, and something that has 0z, and you cross them and get 'z' 100% of the time, you have probalby 4z. Next generation you'll have 2z, and then 1z, but after that you start to get a mix of "no z" again. Given that, I think I can repair Wulf's list with science.

1. First, you left out a race of 1.5 billion people: South Asians.

Genetic dominance, yes, belongs to black ethnic groups, particularly west african. Genetic dominance is a decent part of why subsaharan africa is black, ditto for inner city america.

2. Black is a nonsense definition. You mean to say a member of Niger-Congo, Nilo-Saharan, or indigenous populations, at least three unrelated races.

3. Any hybrid is 100% of both, since they carry the full genome of both: Obama is 100% east african, and 100% northern european. He's Luo-Germanic, and you don't say that about a lot of people (maybe no one else?) Obama might be an ethnic group of 1. His kids have 1 west african genome (probably 20% european, per african american standard), and 1 Luo-Germanic gene mix.

The proper dominance chart would look something like this:

Okay,

Niger-Congo, black
East Asian (There are different subgroups here)
South Asian
Arabs
Nilo-Saharan, black
Indigenous African
European (There are different subgroups here)

The asian and european genetic derivations aren't nearly as different as the african, the african derivations are more different from one another than are to the rest of the world combined. Barack and Michelle are closer related to Wulf than they are to each other.

I omitted hispanic since they are a eurasian mix, some are strictly asian, genetically, others strictly european genetically, it's a culture, not a race.

I threw in arabs at the last minute, but I think they're pretty low on the genetic dominance order.

I'm sorry if I reversed your order, but that's genetic reality. If any race is "lower" it would be lower in genetic dominance, which would definitely place european last.

As for when that dominant race disappears from the genome, it's whenever the number of genesets that make up the racial characteristic set approaches zero.

For instance, many people would consider Phoebe Cates to be "white" and not "asian" indicating that 1/4 asian is white. Mariah Carey and Paula Abdul are generally considered "white" being 1/8 black.

This was the reason for the 1/8 rule for slaves. It was set specifically for one person: Sally Hemmings. Genetic evidence in the trial showed that in fact Sally hemmings was no part black, and that Thomas Jefferson was an Iranian. However, Hemmings children were sold as slaves along with Jefferson's black slaves, as a result, their children were black. As such, they would be allowed to intermingle only with the other black slave populations, resulting in Jefferson's descendents being black.

This was easy to trace because Jefferson was just about the only genetic Iranian around. The reason for the rule was that prior to 1776, Irish slavery was legal. To keep Miss Hemmings, Jefferson needed to redefine her as black, and created a document to do so. His figuring was that no one would be able to tell 1/8 black from white, and in fact the only descriptions of Sally Hemmings at the time identify her as Irish, which we now know.

Still, 1/4 black would be identifiably black, I think there are a fair number of stars, particularly girls, who fall here, and are more easily picked out as black than Ms. Cates is as Chinese, though I don't know if this would be true of east african children.

Here's the daughter of Iman and Bowie, I'm guessing, if she were to marry a white man, people would identify the children as white.

I wasn't sure where to put Arabs on the scale. Bin Laden is clearly part east african, but I don't know what %. It's clear that most people identify him as Arab.

I do know that in Africa, a west african-east african mix is almost always identified as west african, signaling the dominance there, but again, I don't know to what degree.

All of this is a rough science, there's so much dispersion between groups and variations within a group, and mixing is a fairly random process, but this is a general genetic probability map, with some possible errors.

Oh, the short answer to your question would be:
The dominant phenotypes they present

Phenotypically, I'd say Obama looks very east African and not very Anglo-Saxon. Michelle and the kids look west african to me.

Other minority groups:
Native americans are asian
Aboriginies are African Aboriginal
Central asians are asian/caucasian
Austronesians are Asian/Aboriginal

Edit: I'm not here to support the thesis, just trying to add a little science to explain why people make judgments like "Halle Berry is black."

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Monday, September 21, 2009 5:57 PM

FREMDFIRMA

Just sayin, pointin out folk DO it - ain't the same as agreein with it.

And yeah, Wulf does strike me as tryin to rise above it, which encourages me to offer a hand to help lift, instead of slap him upside the head.

I mean, really - if that's your fashion of tryin to educate someone to a better way, small wonder it ain't goin so well.

I might bonk him on the head here and there myself, but you *might* try pointing it out without the flame and then having the patience to bite your tongue for a lil bit BEFORE resorting to the flames.

Try Reason First.

-F

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Monday, September 21, 2009 7:42 PM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important

Hello,

I think rather than yelling at Wulf, one might observe that his statement is racist precisely because it is this kind of racist thinking that causes race to be perceived as it is.

It's instructive, and I think he meant it to be so.

--Anthony

"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner

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Tuesday, September 22, 2009 3:01 AM

HERO

Quote:
Originally posted by Wulfenstar:
Asian/black= black

Asian/white= Eurasian.

No.

Asian/white= Eurasian.

Asian= YerAsian

Asian/Black= Tiger Woods

H

"Hero. I have come to respect you"- Chrisisall, 2009.

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Tuesday, September 22, 2009 3:47 AM

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg

Im not agreeing with it, but thats how its done.

You could always just say "mixed". Or American.

In Latin countries, there are different words for people of different skin shades. Since most people in these places run the gambit of really dark to really light, they have words describing their coloring. "Coffee" is a good example.

What is ALSO asinine, is trying to call somebody a ______ - American. (African-American, Chinese-American, ect) The only time you are that, is when you are in the middle of transferring your nationality.

It gets really interesting, I suppose, for people who have more than 2 races in their bloodline. Example: Your grandfather was chinese, your father is chinese/hispanic, and your mother is white... Chinese/Hispanic/White...

The whole thing is silly.

ETA: This whole thing also has its roots in the "1 drop" theory, from back in the slavery and colonization days. "If you have one drop of XYZ blood in you, then you are of that race." And yes, it was considered the "lower" blood.

Let me be clear here, Im not agreeing with it, just answering the damn question.

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Tuesday, September 22, 2009 3:55 AM

... fully loaded, safety off...

Quote:
Originally posted by Fremdfirma:
Just sayin, pointin out folk DO it - ain't the same as agreein with it.

And yeah, Wulf does strike me as tryin to rise above it, which encourages me to offer a hand to help lift, instead of slap him upside the head.

I mean, really - if that's your fashion of tryin to educate someone to a better way, small wonder it ain't goin so well.

I might bonk him on the head here and there myself, but you *might* try pointing it out without the flame and then having the patience to bite your tongue for a lil bit BEFORE resorting to the flames.

Try Reason First.

-F

Frem - I realized you were doing just that, pointing out the tendancy and not agreeing. I take from your posts that you are a very color blind person - it's about individual behaviour. "There's arseholes on every block."

Wulf? I mostly joke with him because it's up to him to make his own way. Lately though... some of the stuff he's posted... Seriously; guys in skull masks using "Tyranny" and "Freedom" without any substance just to justify their anger? It's pretty damn sad.
I think sometimes he just enjoys agitating for the sake of agitating. He is free to do that and I am free to criticize him for it.

Besides:

"You know the answer to raised voices, and threatening gestures?

YOUR raised voice, YOUR threatening gesture.

Someone pulls a knife on you, you pull YOUR knife.

Yeah, its ugly, its not pretty.

But you meet force with force.

"Thats the Chicago way" lol sorry...

But its still the truth."

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Tuesday, September 22, 2009 3:57 AM

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg

Ok, and I was just trying to answer the damn question.

You asked, so I answered.

I never said I agree with it, (I don't), but giving my opinion/answer.

ETA: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/One-drop_rule

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Tuesday, September 22, 2009 4:03 AM

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg

Also: A funny quote from the movie "Domino"
------------------------------------------------

Lateesha Rodriguez: Now, as a blactino woman, I believe we deserve our own race category to forge an identity, Jerry. That's how I feel.
Jerry Springer: Did you just say "blactino"?
Lateesha Rodriguez: Yes, I did. I'm a blactino-American.
Chinegro Woman: Wow. Uh, first of all... first of all, you don't even look latino. You look black. You're... You're black. Second of all, I'm of mixed race, and I've struggled my whole life as to whether I'm Chinese or whether I'm black.
Lateesha Rodriguez: Chinegro! What you are is chinegro!
Chinegro Woman: Chinegro?
Lateesha Rodriguez: Chinegro! There you go!
Chinegro Woman: Chinegro?
Lateesha Rodriguez: You are a chinegro!
Chinegro Woman: What the
[bleep]
Chinegro Woman: is chinegro?
Lateesha Rodriguez: That's what you are! Chinegro is you!
Chinegro Woman: That's some bulls...
[bleep]
Chinegro Woman: .
Jerry Springer: OK, as I understand it, you brought a mixed-race flow chart with you. Why don't we bring that out?
[Crowd shouting and booing]
Lateesha Rodriguez: [to a random heckler] How you doin', sugar? All right. I'm gonna call you later. Mwah. All right.
[Crowd laughs]
Lateesha Rodriguez: Take a look at this...
[she unveils the chart]
Lateesha Rodriguez: Blactino, blackasian, hispasian, OK? Now, for the Asian subcategories,
[to the Chinegro woman]
Lateesha Rodriguez: I got you, sister. We have chinegro right here. That's you. Chinegro.
Chinegro Woman: That's not a word! That's not a word!
Lateesha Rodriguez: Yes, it is, sister. We have koreagro. Japegro, OK?
[Crowd laughs]
Lateesha Rodriguez: Chispanic, koreaspanic, and last but not least, check this out, y'all... japanic.
[Crowd cheering]
Lateesha Rodriguez: That's how I flow with it!
Jerry Springer: Do you believe the government should recognise these racial subgroups?
Lateesha Rodriguez: Yes, Jerry, I do.

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Tuesday, September 22, 2009 4:09 AM

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg

So let me ask you guys... are you disagreeing with what I've said?

Or just because it was ME who said it?

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Tuesday, September 22, 2009 4:14 AM

... fully loaded, safety off...

Quote:
Originally posted by Wulfenstar:
Ok, and I was just trying to answer the damn question.

You asked, so I answered.

I never said I agree with it, (I don't), but giving my opinion/answer.

ETA: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/One-drop_rule

We cross posted so I missed you last post - happens.

You have a *history* and saying "lowest" was either carefully chosen to incite or kind of boneheaded. You ain't stupid so I went for the first one.

The whole thing is silly until I hear the MSM using the labels - a lot of people live by what they say.

Heh - that's funny bit. Add Blackenese to the list - I'm sure there are more.

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Tuesday, September 22, 2009 4:19 AM

Sometimes you own the libs. Sometimes, the libs own you.

Quote:
Let me be clear here, Im not agreeing with it, just answering the damn question.

OK, I'll retract my 'idiot' remarks then. My new advice - as someone who likes to dance so much in the zone between political corectness and racism, try to be clear from the start.

Heads should roll

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Tuesday, September 22, 2009 4:29 AM

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg

Btw,

I am of the opinion that so called "diversity" is more about divisiveness than respect. (I could go on a long rant about this, and why I believe liberals and Democrats are just as, if not more, racist than conservatives. But maybe later.)

So my question is:

Why do people feel the need to label someone as an African-American, or a Chinese-American? Instead of just American?

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Tuesday, September 22, 2009 4:29 AM

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg

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Tuesday, September 22, 2009 4:45 AM

Sometimes you own the libs. Sometimes, the libs own you.

Quote:
Why do people feel the need to label someone as an African-American, or a Chinese-American? Instead of just American?

Because it's descriptive - it says something about the person's heritage, and family history, possibly their culture, values, upbringing, their physical attributes etc. Once we've stopped discriminating based on these differences we can start celebrating the variety we have.

Colour-blind is bland, and not for me.

Heads should roll

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Tuesday, September 22, 2009 4:50 AM

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg

How is it descriptive if you've never been to China, or Africa? And the last time your family was in those areas was over 30 generations ago?

It doesn't make sense.

I think, the real truth, is it just sounds "better" to some people than saying white, black, asian ect.

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Tuesday, September 22, 2009 4:58 AM

NEWOLDBROWNCOAT

Quote:
Originally posted by Wulfenstar:

ETA: This whole thing also has its roots in the "1 drop" theory, from back in the slavery and colonization days. "If you have one drop of XYZ blood in you, then you are of that race." And yes, it was considered the "lower" blood.

Thanx for making the point I was going to make, but never got to.
This standard has been used at various times and places of discrimination.
" You got one drop, you're one of THEM."

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Tuesday, September 22, 2009 4:59 AM

Sometimes you own the libs. Sometimes, the libs own you.

Quote:
How is it descriptive if you've never been to China, or Africa? And the last time your family was in those areas was over 30 generations ago?

It doesn't make sense.

And American Irish - we should refer to them just as 'american' as well?

You're taking the colour out of things - a lot of people are proud of their heritage, and derive a sense of identity from it. Just be careful about denying them that - otherwise... I have no issue with people choosing to be colour-blind themselves.

Quote:
I think, the real truth, is it just sounds "better" to some people than saying white, black, asian ect.

Hmm, perhaps.

Heads should roll

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Tuesday, September 22, 2009 5:06 AM

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg

But if your "heritage" was some 10 generations ago, meaning that your family has been American for at least 100 years.... how does that make sense?

I just think its more about divisiveness than anything. A way of making yourself feel better about yourself.

A way of saying; Well at least I'm not THEM.

Its stupid. We should focus on the American culture, focus on being proud of THAT.

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Tuesday, September 22, 2009 5:13 AM

EDIT: Nevermind, I don't think this added much.

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Tuesday, September 22, 2009 5:16 AM

Sometimes you own the libs. Sometimes, the libs own you.

Quote:
But if your "heritage" was some 10 generations ago, meaning that your family has been American for at least 100 years.... how does that make sense?

I just think its more about divisiveness than anything. A way of making yourself feel better about yourself.

A way of saying; Well at least I'm not THEM.

Its stupid. We should focus on the American culture, focus on being proud of THAT.

Hmm, interesting. I'm sure you have a point, but also think you're taking some colour out of things. I'm glad that you maintain that American culture can be for all races though. Anyway, be back later.

Heads should roll

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Tuesday, September 22, 2009 5:23 AM

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg

Just as an observation, you keep saying things like "you're taking some colour out of things", and "being colour-blind is a little bland"....

So, besides the UK spelling of color, is there anything else to it?

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Tuesday, September 22, 2009 5:23 AM

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg

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Tuesday, September 22, 2009 6:00 AM

Um, yeah, culture is an important and vital part of most people's lives, and it tends to be tied to race. Some people even "adopt" a culture to fill this need. It's a cornerstone of a shared sense of community.

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Tuesday, September 22, 2009 6:31 AM

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg

Yes, but what culture?

Do you really think the Italians here (not all mind you, but some) who wear track suits, and 15 gold chains, have ANYTHING to do with the Italians in Italy?

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Tuesday, September 22, 2009 6:47 AM

Culture can become diluted, and may no longer resemble the culture of the mother country, but so long as culture continues to provide a formative influence on perception and lifestyle, it can still be considered a culture, yes. History, also, is a part of the culture of certain groups.

A similar question you might ask is how much in common does Kwanzaa or the practice of voodoo have to do with the original African influences? Perhaps not much, I'd have to research further, but the people who honour these practices still find it meaningful and a part of shared sense of community. It does not lessen their practices to be a derived form of an original so long as the cultural connection is still valued.

You also have to recognize that certain types of family structure are tied to cultural influence. For example, Latino/Chicano family structure, owing to the heavy influence of catholicism and the concept of patriarchs, tend to be multi-generational.

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Tuesday, September 22, 2009 6:50 AM

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg

Ok.

Let me ask a question then, without being snarky... How does celebrating our diversity, claiming we are African/Indian/German ect help this country?

How does being divided by ever smaller circles lead to a better society?

For me, Im an American first.

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Tuesday, September 22, 2009 7:23 AM

Are you, though? Do you identify with all other people who consider themselves American? What does being American mean? Do other people have a different definition of what being an American means?

Could it be that different cultures and lifestyles might lead to different interests, different skill emphasis, different perceptions and problem solving methods? That those assets might be more useful than homogeneity?

You just describe everyone as a nationality, and expect that there won't be conflict. This is true in America, where there is obviously still conflict between mainstream culture and cultures trying to resist assimilation, and this is true in the Middle East, where tribes that consider each other enemies have been thrown together and consider themselves a nation.

This isn't unity. It's playing factions off each other. Again and again, reinforce people trying to screw each other over.

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Tuesday, September 22, 2009 7:26 AM

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg

Yes, but when we are so divided as a people, both by design and by desire, we lose the strength of true unity.

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Tuesday, September 22, 2009 7:34 AM

There never was true unity. There never WILL be true unity.

I've seen what the visionaries want for "unity" and I want nothing to do with it.

Different cultures can cooperate to accomplish goals. But unity in the sense of a national government is only effective when everyone within it are the same culture. To group together many different cultures and then expect them to abandon their cultures for a mainstream is wrong, Wulf, it's forcing beliefs on people.

One powerful goal may inspire many different culture to work together, but eventually that "union" will fall prey to infighting. This is inevitable.

To bring an end to the corruption and power hierarchy and abuse that government and corporation represent, we will need to unite, you have no objections from me there. But I can only hope we can remain united long enough to accomplish the goal. I doubt we will.

And if we do, the very last thing I want to see is an implementation of the exact same garbage that laid the groundwork to get us into this mess in the first place.

The founding fathers were not our friends. They were rich aristocrats who thought that together they had the brains and smarts to affect region-wide and international policy. Because of their precedence and the system they constructed, who is in charge of this country? Why, rich aristocrats, or the puppets they let climb the ladder.

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Tuesday, September 22, 2009 7:38 AM

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg

I agree, actually.

But, I would settle for people to say,

"Yeah, Im Indian, Italian, ect... but Im happy and proud to be American. Dammit, we are free. And while Im might like my kimchi, my loyalties lie with the people of my homeland, America. Lets all work together to make it as free and as strong as possible"

Yeah. Im naive.

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Tuesday, September 22, 2009 7:44 AM

KWICKO

Quote:
Originally posted by Wulfenstar:
Yes, but what culture?

Do you really think the Italians here (not all mind you, but some) who wear track suits, and 15 gold chains, have ANYTHING to do with the Italians in Italy?

Okay, let's look at it another way:

Do you really think that Southern rednecks who fly Confederate flags have ANYTHING to do with the actual Confederate States of America?

If you're interested in uniting us as "Americans" first, shouldn't you also want to do away with useless crap like that, the holdovers from a war long ago fought and lost, and the losers who still cling to the flag of a defeated, traitorous nation?

As for your "lowest blood" garbage, you don't come across as someone who doesn't believe in that, especially when you preface your remarks by saying things like "this is THE TRUTH". You only backed away from it when people called you on it, then claiming NOT to believe it, after earlier claiming that it was the TRUE answer as to why these labels get used: because people get labelled by the - in YOUR words - "lowest blood" in their ancestry.

You'll do a lot better job of convincing us that you're not a racist, a skinhead, a neo-Nazi, or a white supremacist if you'd stop quoting from their playbooks.

Just sayin'.

Oh, and please remind me again - How does it "unite" us all as Americans to say things like "Black people just can not give gifts." You weren't referencing AMERICANS when you said that, just black people. How's that helping? In a world where YOU claim that actions mean more than words, what are YOU doing to stop racism? Because your WORDS are only exacerbating it.

Mike

Old friend charity
Cruel twisted smile
And the smile signals emptiness
For me
Starless and Bible black

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Tuesday, September 22, 2009 7:46 AM

Why do you emphasize this connection to a large nation of many cultures? Is it strength of numbers?

If so, what do you mean to accomplish with your strength of numbers? Intimidation of other similar patchwork nations? National defense/war?

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Tuesday, September 22, 2009 7:53 AM

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg

The "lowest blood" stuff was NOT my idea.

Thats just how its done, and I've said many times (now 5+ and counting)that I dont agree with it.

I was just answering a question.

And as for the rest, its called humor.

"You'll do a lot better job of convincing us that you're not a racist, a skinhead, a neo-Nazi, or a white supremacist if you'd stop quoting from their playbooks."

Lol Wow. A question was asked, and I answered. But thats playing from the neo-facist race book? Cause I called out the truth of things? Cause it doesnt sit to well with your pre-defined ideas of truth? I never claimed to be PC, and I never WILL be PC (PC being first used by the Nazis)

Jeeze....

Well, how about this then? Gun control is racist, in that it was originally designed to keep blacks from getting guns after the Civil War.

And it was drafted by Northerners.

Now, a show of hands...

Who here thinks Im a "skinhead, a neo-Nazi, or a white supremacist"...

Im actually curious.

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Tuesday, September 22, 2009 7:57 AM

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg

"Why do you emphasize this connection to a large nation of many cultures? Is it strength of numbers?

If so, what do you mean to accomplish with your strength of numbers? Intimidation of other similar patchwork nations? National defense/war?"

Because right now, there are hundreds, if not thousands of little mini-camps fighting each other.

And nothing gets better.

I've finally realized what some here have been saying. If we really want things to change for the better, we all have to pull TOGETHER.

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Tuesday, September 22, 2009 8:00 AM

DREAMTROVE

Wulf

1. No, it's not because you said it, people have a lot of patience with you because...

2. Frem is right. You're trying. Sometimes you're trying in the other sense ;)

3. My illustration of genetics is the real world dominance of "physicial" phenotypes. This *does* effect the way we perceive people. We judge people by their physical phenotype and classify them. There was an interesting article in this week's Newsweek suggesting that this is instinctive and not cultural.

4. If there are more copies of phenotypical genes then they will dominate.

5. Also, populations with larger genetic diversity are easier to tell apart (it's easier to tell one frenchmen from another than one serb from another, because there's a more diverse genepool) <-- this *also* effects the way we see people.

6. Africa has a more diverse gene pool than anywhere, but African-Americans overwhelmingly come from a much smaller portion of africa than European americans do from europe, this *also* effects the way we see people.

7. We learn our differentiations socially by the characteristics that we see around us. If there's a wide variation in hair and eye color, then we include that. I have friends who have identical twins that very only in nose and chin shape, subtle face curves. As a result, the non-twin sibs identify people primarily by subtle face curves.

8. In essence what I'm saying is there are real physical differences that we use to classify people, which is a mix of instinct and social.

Wulf,

9. Cultural diversity adds a lot to our country, just as it does to Europe: Many ways of doing things result in many divergent thought processes which lead to many different types of solutions to problems. We are better off for it.

10. The converse is not true: a so called multicultural melting pot would again become "one way of doing things" it would just be different from the previous way, but probably give no added benefit to a society.

Byte

1. Kwanza is a totally artificial creation of African Americans, but then again, so is Rap Music. This is African American culture, and has nothing to do with Africa, but is just as valid as any other constructed culture, like Israel, which I consider completely valid. You don't need a 5,000 year history to have a culture. Scientology is a valid religion, everything starts somewhere.

2. Voodoo is an actual african tradition, and dates back at least 5,000 years in West Africa. I find it very useful personally because I do a lot of research into herbal medicines, and Voodoo has saved my life, and could save thousands of others. I fully intend to become a voodoo witch doctor, I think this is a perfectly respectable occupation. This is not really comparable to Kwanza, because it's more than a cultural ritual, it's an actual science.

Everyone,

America should abandon uniform conformity. We are much better off with mexicans and chinese and africans, african americans, jews, catholics, the amish, etc. Variety is the spice of life.

To reiterate:

Many ways of doing things result in many divergent thought processes which lead to many different types of solutions to problems. We are better off for it.

We also benefit from cultural diversity itself. I like an indian restaurant. I like indian culture. I like having it here. I don't want McSomosa and Tandoori grilled mcChicken sandwich from a corner counter at walmart. I want to go to an indian restaurant, full on. I enjoy the food, and the experience.

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Tuesday, September 22, 2009 8:03 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...

Sorry, but I tho' I hate to, I agree with Wulf. I think it IS more the fact that he brought it up than that it's not true or is bullshit. I don't like the "lowest blood" remark, but that IS how it's perceived in America...the "other", the "stranger", whatever you want to call it, he's right. That may make it wrong, but that doesn't make it not exist.

You can be second or third generation of most of those things, and if your features aren't too representative of your "non-Caucasian" heritage, you can get called "White"--but if they show, some people will ask "where are you from" or "where are your parents from", and among (conscious or unconscious) true racists, that is what they'll see and make judgments on. That's just fact, and I don't see anything wrong with Wulf voicing it. Doesn't mean he BELIEVES it, it's just what he observes, and he's right.

I see further down both he and others said the same thing--I always come in late!

Lots of interesting questions here. I was going to mention that the attitude comes from decades ago, with Mulato and stuff, and that it's true in most societies, but I see that's been covered too. I know when Obama was campaigining, a lot of African Americans said he wasn't Black ENOUGH, and called him "Oreo" (black on the outside, white inside).

I think it's sad we still think this way, and hopefully someday we won't as much...as people's ethnicity gets diluted further and further by intermarriage, hopefully it'll be less so. But as to keeping a non-American heritage, I think it has its pros and cons. Here in CA, the keeping to heritage of Hispanics hinders their melding into the society, but at the same time, if people want to recognize/respect their heritage, I certainly have no right to argue with it. It can go too far, like the maintenance of Sharia law and so forth; I wish there were a middle ground between melding with the culture and maintaining one's heritage.

My mom was a French immigrant, but I don't identify at ALL with French culture. Interestingly, I DO have some genetic things in common with them, which surprised me as my mom was the only French person I knew and didn't pass on anything, but I have observed some things in me which were never taught (consciously or unconsciously, mom was a baby when she came over, and her mother was big on being a "true American").

The fact is, at this point in time people will be viewed as representative of their features; here in America, that means anything but "generic white" will be seen as something else. My friend Choey mentioned the same thing about the absurdity of Obama being considered "Black" when he's only half Black...it's just the way it is.

Personally, I think there's nothing wrong with color-blindness; if someone wants to bring up their heritage, I find it interesting, but it's not how I perceive them.

I disagree, however, that the racism is equal in both right and left wingers. The left may have difficulty dealing with it "correctly" but at least they TRY, while most of the strongly right-wing people are quite open about recognizing race, and often about putting it down (obviously or more subtly). The left hasn't got it perfect, yet, and there certainly are subconscious racist things going on, but on the WHOLE, the left makes more of an effort not to be negative about race.

AND, it's different in different areas. It's true that none of us are truly "American", because that delineation is different in different parts of the country. My brother-in-law and husband came from Idaho; out there it's Native Americans; the racism Curt had was very obvious. It shocked me, as here in CA we revere (in thought at least!) our Native Americans. In Florida, I imagine there's more prejudice against Cuban, etc., and here in CA, it's more against Hispanics, and more recently, Muslims as we have a large Muslim population.

There's a question for you: what is the racism where YOU live? What culture is it most obviously reflected by? I'll be the answers reflect as many different parts of America as there are people who come from them.

And I definitely disagree with calling Wulf names because he said what is true. I'm glad others recognized the truth of it...even if we don't agree with it, that doesn't make it not "so".

________________________
Together we are greater than the sum of our parts

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Tuesday, September 22, 2009 8:05 AM