Help me - I'm confused by racial labels by pizmobeach

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg

"Sorry, but I tho' I hate to, I agree with Wulf."

Jesus. Don't hate it too much.

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Tuesday, September 22, 2009 8:10 AM

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg

"Wulf

I think you went past a very important question: do you identify with ALL 'Americans' ?

Because if you don't, then you are asking people to do something which you yourself won't do."

Yeah I do. And I see where you are going with this...

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Tuesday, September 22, 2009 8:44 AM

BYTEMITE

Quote:
Because right now, there are hundreds, if not thousands of little mini-camps fighting each other.

The only way to stop the camps from fighting over what to do is to exterminate the differences. Otherwise there will always be disagreement.

Quote:
And nothing gets better.

It's not because of the existence of different groups that nothing gets better, or even the usual arguments that are involved with negotiation and progress, but because some people expertly know how to set those camps fighting at each other to a stalemate.

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I've finally realized what some here have been saying. If we really want things to change for the better, we all have to pull TOGETHER.

I can agree with that, but I don't think what you're suggesting is the way to do it. You say unite and you mean in EVERYTHING, under one common idea, put aside all differences and even reject all differences so that fighting stops.

It'll get your job done, but at what cost? What will you have set up in creating this system? People who are all alike are easily controllable and easy to manipulate.

Quote:
Of course, but identifying your national heritage as American should be a source of pride.

Why?

Why should I take more pride in being born within some artificial geo-political borders than I do in the culture and community I was raised in? Being "American" doesn't MEAN anything.

Quote:
Im tired of people thinking that America is this all you can eat buffet, where you come in load up and then bounce out. Or as a train way-station.

And btw, if its some much better in the old-country, whyd you come here?

Jobs. And you'll find that most people consider how they earn money with less affection than they do the family and the culture they may have left.

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Tuesday, September 22, 2009 8:54 AM

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg

In any case... has the question been answered?

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Tuesday, September 22, 2009 8:57 AM

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

"Yeah I do."

Actually, no you don't. There are many 'thems' you specifically do NOT identify with. There is YOU. And there is THEM.

I also find it ironic that you, who feel righteous in hating groups (groups BAAAAAD individuals GOOOOOD), now claim to not actually divide people into groups. BTW, that whole hating-groups-of-people-thaang is something we have all frequently see you do. YOU are the biggest flogger of group identity here.

It's even more delicious that you, who claim to hate groups, want us all to join one BIIIIIIG faceless group - americans.

You are seriously confused. One thought of yours can't help but run high speed head-on into another. And it all starts with the idea that 'they' were in total control of your life --- and theirs. That the only racism that exists is that 'they' think of themselves as black. If only 'they' wouldn't do that, then it would all disappear.

So, here's how I'm guessing it started. You didn't like being trapped in a bad place with an alcoholic mother (and, if I recall correctly, no father around). You didn't get along with the neighborhood kids either, 'cause you were a jerk. When you went crying to your mother, she - needing to blame someone who was not her - said 'you don't need them anyway, we're better than they are.' And you, needing to blame someone who was not either her or you, went along.

***************************************************************

Silence is consent.

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Tuesday, September 22, 2009 8:59 AM

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg

Frem... a little help here.

Rue is pushing it and Im about to get ghetto on her.

ETA: Ok, Im going to sign off for a bit.

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Tuesday, September 22, 2009 9:08 AM

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...

There's a difference between "America should abandon uniform conformity" and coming together on some important things while maintaining our individuality. We can conform to what's necessary for the best and still treasure our heritage.

Quote:
because some people expertly now how to set those camps fighting at each other to a stalemate

Bingo. It's not about differences--or wouldn't be as much--it's about people teaching and using differences. Parents teach children to be racist, because they fear the "different". Leaders use differences to bolster the "us v. them" mentality to attain their own agendas.

Quote:
Im tired of people thinking that America is this all you can eat buffet, where you come in load up and then bounce out. Or as a train way-station.

And btw, if its some much better in the old-country, whyd you come here?

That's a silly statement...the vast majority of people who come here have to deal with the problems of existence the same as the rest of us; the number who "load up and then bounce out" are the vast minority, and even fewer consider it a train way-station!

Of COURSE it wasn't better in the old country, that's why most people come here--for a chance at a better life. That doesn't mean they leave the heritage they loved and grew up in behind, nor should it.

I hate agreeing with you, Wulf, because I decry many, if not most, of what you say; your black-and-white world isn't something I admire; I'd respect you if you addressed reality with real, attainable objectives, not just "heroic", Hollywoodized rhetoric.

Prime example is stating you agree with ALL Americans. It's physically impossible. I've long held that America is too big to be one country for just that reason. It's good that it IS one country, because the opposing views allow us to moderate the most extreme ones, but it also makes it difficult because differing views can cancel each other out.

You can't agree with all Americans. Some Americans are proud of our country and see no need to change it. Some want revolution, some want anarchy. Some are racist and totally convinced of their beliefs; some want to do away with racism. Some believe in equality; some believe those who need help should just disappear. Some are rabid Republicans; some equally rabid Democrats. To say you agree with "all" Americans just simply isn't possible. That's a perfect example of why I hate to agree with you.

Byte:

Quote:
The only way to stop the camps from fighting over what to do is to exterminate the differences. Otherwise there will always be disagreement.

But it can never happen. Human nature makes THAT impossible, too. We can agree on some things, but there will always be differences. Just the attitude people have in a small, rural farming community toward those in a skyscraper-dominated, 40-hour work week and suit urban mentality, and vice versa, makes it impossible.

Quote:
It's not because of the existence of different groups that nothing gets better, or even the usual arguments that are involved with negotiation and progress, but because some people expertly now how to set those camps fighting at each other to a stalemate.

Right on. It used to be that our two houses in government had opposing views, but compromised and negotiated to the point where things got done--however slowly. Now the parties are so polarized that they cancel one another out, and "progress" falls by the wayside--at least progress that enhances the lives of the majorty of Americans.

Quote:
Why should I take more pride in being born within some artificial geo-political borders than I do in the culture and community I was raised in? Being "American" doesn't MEAN anything.

Yes, it does. It's not just a matter of geopolitical borders, it's about a society and how it works and what it reveres and so much more. It means we accept the things our nation does and gives us, and it means responsibility for how our nation behaves and whether we blindly accept it or not.

Jo came here without a thought for what she left behind, and never got past thinking I should go to England or some other country to be with her. I never could get across that it's important to me that I'm American, and I wouldn't abandon my nationality for her. Traveling (especially to Asia) and history have made me proud to be an American...that doesn't mean I'm also ashamed of things my country has done or that I won't try and affect what it does. That certainly doesn't mean that being American is THE most improtant thing, or even second, third or fourth down the list, just that it IS one of the things by which I identify myself.

________________________
Together we are greater than the sum of our parts

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Tuesday, September 22, 2009 9:16 AM

Sometimes you own the libs. Sometimes, the libs own you.

Quote:
Just as an observation, you keep saying things like "you're taking some colour out of things", and "being colour-blind is a little bland"....

So, besides the UK spelling of color, is there anything else to it?

Sure, I always mean something by what I say. Let me explain by way of an example:

If a friend came back from America talking about his new American girlfriend, I would like it for them to be descriptive. If the girl was a chinese american I would want him to say so - it would give me an immediate impression of what she looked like, and as well a general inkling of what might be her religion, politics, values, cullinary habits etc.(i'm not an expert on american society but I imagine their are ethnic trends). All these aspects are 'colour'.

If however my friend neglected to mention this exotic heritage, I would wonder at his blandness of taste.

Heads should roll

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Tuesday, September 22, 2009 9:18 AM

BYTEMITE

Quote:
it's about a society and how it works and what it reveres and so much more. It means we accept the things our nation does and gives us, and it means responsibility for how our nation behaves and whether we blindly accept it or not.

Replace society and nation with the word culture.

I already have a culture. I do not consider it inherently American. If my culture is not American, what is American?

I don't think there is an answer, any definition for what "Being American" is. Therefore, I think "being American doesn't mean anything."

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Tuesday, September 22, 2009 9:25 AM

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...

That's interesting. I see by "color" you mean "colorfulness" rather than "race". It's an interesting concept...would we rather get an immediate impression of someone (which, in truth, also is a prejudgment of them) than decide for ourselves if/when we meet them, or if/when the person goes on to describe the things you mentioned? I think I'd prefer the latter...descriptive or not, a statement of a person's heritage can lead to misunderstandings.

Yes, of course there are ethnic trends, and much more! Given how many there are in just a small country like England--which could fit inside a number of our states--it's a given. And those ethnic trends don't necessarily reflect anyone's "heritage" or race, either. Nope, I'm for getting to know the person by more detailed description of the PERSON, not the race, 'cuz I'd jump to conclusions otherwise and have prejudgments of who the person is, their values, religion, politics, etc.

For example, if someone described my favorite supervisor a while back as "Black", it would give a very wrong impression. She moved here from New York, and had very New York attitudes; she was buddhist, not Muslim; her culinary tastes were definitely Italian; her taste in art was very avant garde; her "culture" and manner of speech, body language and gestures were far more "white" than "black"...so just saying I had a "black girlfriend" would give all sorts of wrong impressions.

Nope, gotta reject that theory once I think it through.

________________________
Together we are greater than the sum of our parts

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Tuesday, September 22, 2009 9:28 AM

FREMDFIRMA

Quote:
I hate agreeing with you, Wulf, because I decry many, if not most, of what you say; your black-and-white world isn't something I admire; I'd respect you if you addressed reality with real, attainable objectives, not just "heroic", Hollywoodized rhetoric.

Well, that's where show-n-tell comes in, don't it ?

Instead of stomping on the dream, why not work together at accomplishing it, enlighten, educate ?
Hell, I'm not all *that* good at it, but at least I'll try, yanno, instead of backhanding someone for lacking, seems counterproductive to me.

I think the key to handling cultural diversity is indeed Nakama and Family of choice, and the key to expanding our personal care circles or monkeyspheres is rather than a single circle, a set of expanding rings.

Closest is of course your Nakama, your buddies, folk you'd trust with your woman, your beer, your money - then friends and neighbors, your neighborhood, and so on and so forth till you've got the whole world, although at less intensity.

I mean, I'll risk getting shot at for my Nakama - for someone up a creek in a country far away, not so much, but it don't stop me from sparing at least a LITTLE effort (remember the office supplies to RAWA) so much as I can accomplish without much risk or effort, and the halfass support of a lot of folk does add up over time.

Another concept I've been workin on for quite a while is temp-extension, the ability to temporarily yank someone into your monkeysphere for ten minutes, an hour, a day - however long it's needful to associate with them, and then let them drift on out of it at the end of that time.

Not quite convinced of it's benefit yet, but it does seem to be one manner of forcibly overriding an "other" reaction which drags down every social interaction with them and leads to misunderstanding and upset.

So far I've only had one or two (albeit quite memorable) folk who really didn't WANT to be in my monkeysphere, even for a second, but I couldn't tell ya the why - I did respect their will about it though.

"WE" can be the sum of infinite combinations, remember that.

Funny thing about violence in respect to activism, I'll share an actually uttered quote from my past with you, without context, and let you make of it what you will.

"Uh huh, you got six bullets, there's fourteen of us, perhaps you might consider negotiating instead ?"

-F

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Tuesday, September 22, 2009 9:36 AM

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

"For example, if someone described my favorite supervisor a while back as "Black", it would give a very wrong impression."

Here there are many immigrant families with US born children. To speak of even their children as 'Mexican-American", "Korean-American" etc is quite descriptive, b/c they were brought up straddling cultures, and at least SOME of their heritage is not 'American'.

OTOH, my neighbor, whose family lineage is 100% Filipino but whose upbringing is 100% American, is the quintessential 'Valley Girl'. So to call her Filipina would be very misleading.

***************************************************************

Silence is consent.

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Tuesday, September 22, 2009 9:36 AM

I take it from a brief skimming that none of you are African American or any minority group?

Racial labels are comprised of two components:

1. Self Identification

2. How society looks at you and judges you (prejudice)

1. I am Arab American by most definitions of the label, but I don't identify with Arabs. My family is from Syria originally, spoke Arabic originally, but now we have no connection to Arab culture. My family is also Jewish and though we are not religious Jews, I do identify with our culture and history, so I call myself Jewish American. So, that's self identification.

2. Here in Hawai'i, I'm a ha'ole. It literally means "a person who cannot chant their genealogy", but locals use it as a catch all for anyone with lighter skin color and non-Asian features. They don't differentiate between light skinned people. We are lumped together. Irish, Italian, Greek, Anglo, Swedes, Slavs, etc- any background that might have a cultural or racial separation on the mainland all are 'ha'ole', everyone else is either 'local' or 'Hawaiian' except the Portuguese. They've been here so long they are separate.

Another example of #2 is some of my Hawaiian friends went to university in California and Oregon. There, many of them were seen as Mexican by both people of color and whites. Latinos would come up to them and immediately speak Spanish to them and whites would sometimes ask them about Mexico or say disparaging things about Mexicans at them.

The third most disturbing aspect of #2 is racial profiling. Because of our name (Hajim), my family was harassed after 9/11. You ever been pulled into second or tertiary inspection by the TSA/DHS? For three years, every single flight we went on, we were searched. My kids too. Six flights a year. Six times to secondary. You ever had to watch a stranger take your little kids most treasured items and have to watch your kids cry while a bunch of strangers in uniform take apart their favorite stuffed animal? Try going through that kind of thing 20 times or more. Once we had our luggage pulled off the plane by these guys. Missed the flight. The reason? No reason given 'cept our Arab sounding name is kind of like some on the extended terrorism list.

Racial profiling is much worse for other people than we've ever experienced.

Hope this helps.

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Tuesday, September 22, 2009 9:39 AM

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

"I take it from a brief skimming that none of you are African American or any minority group?"

Well, there are 'visible minorities' and there are minorities who don't look different from most everyone else.

I take it you mean 'visible minority' ?

***************************************************************

BTW - I knew a guy from PR who, by anyone's visual standards, would have been considered 'black'. He had it all going on - kinky hair, broad nose, full lips etc. (ETA - Oh ! I forgot, dark skin, too.) But he was utterly offended if someone called him black. B/c by god, he was Hispanic !

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Tuesday, September 22, 2009 9:43 AM

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg

Been there done that... at least with the racial profiling on planes...

not to say it was the same thing, but...

Every time I flew, I would get pulled from the line. Im blonde, green eyed, 6"3, but you know.

Gotta keep up appearances.

"NO! We are NOT profiling at all! See?! We pulled this white, relatively large, male from the line!"

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Tuesday, September 22, 2009 10:14 AM

Quote:
I take it you mean 'visible minority' ?

Indeed.

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Tuesday, September 22, 2009 10:14 AM

Sometimes you own the libs. Sometimes, the libs own you.

Quote:
would we rather get an immediate impression of someone (which, in truth, also is a prejudgment of them)

Let me be clear - everything that I refer to as cultural 'colour' is no substitute for (or accurate indication of) quality of personality, intellect or appearance. There are beautiful, charming, intelligent women of all different ethnicities/cultures - and they all derive a certain flavour from their heritage, which may or may not get diluted over the generations... but still to me would be interesting, even in trace form.

Quote:
Nope, I'm for getting to know the person by more detailed description of the PERSON, not the race, 'cuz I'd jump to conclusions otherwise and have prejudgments of who the person is, their values, religion, politics, etc.

Up to you, but if you were one of my friends coming back with a pretty new latino/african/chinese/Irish american girlfriend, and you denied me any ethnic description on principle I would be disappointed and irked with you (as a friend).

Most of the time a person's race is an irrelevant detail (say for their job suitability or something), but sometimes it is an interesting 'colourful' detail.

Heads should roll

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Tuesday, September 22, 2009 10:16 AM

Sometimes you own the libs. Sometimes, the libs own you.

Quote:
OTOH, my neighbor, whose family lineage is 100% Filipino but whose upbringing is 100% American, is the quintessential 'Valley Girl'. So to call her Filipina would be very misleading.

Not physically.

Heads should roll

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Tuesday, September 22, 2009 10:17 AM

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg

We can stay here and fight amongst ourselves, or we can join together... and fight our way back to the light.

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Tuesday, September 22, 2009 10:22 AM

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg

Either we heal, as a team... or we die as individuals.

Damn... ain't that the truth.

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Tuesday, September 22, 2009 1:11 PM

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)

Quote:
Originally posted by Wulfenstar:
Either we heal, as a team... or we die as individuals.

Damn... ain't that the truth.

Everybody dies alone. - Mal Reynolds.

Mike

Old friend charity
Cruel twisted smile
And the smile signals emptiness
For me
Starless and Bible black

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Tuesday, September 22, 2009 1:16 PM

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

"We can stay here and fight amongst ourselves, or we can join together... and fight our way back to the light."

YOUR light ? What if most people don't agree with your light ?

***************************************************************

Silence is consent.

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Tuesday, September 22, 2009 5:34 PM

DREAMTROVE

Mangolo,

I agree racial profiling is terrible, and just institutionalized racism, there's really no too ways about it. I got harassed after 9/11 as well, fairly seriously, so I think that part of it was just an overdose of paranoia.

As for race, it's interesting you bring it up. I realized I had mental pictures of everyone here. I thought you and Niki were both black.

Wulf as well (okay, that was a joke.) I know what Wulf, Frem and Pirate look like, so I don't have to guess. It never occurred to me that Kathy or Sig might be non-white, but it does now... IIRC they live in a white minority area.

The internet is strangely anonymous that way.

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Tuesday, September 22, 2009 6:11 PM

My eye:

Where I live it is quite a beautiful blend. 30% Hawaiian or Part-Hawaiian, 15% Filipino, 15% Japanese, 15% European descent, and a bunch of other ethnicities.

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Tuesday, September 22, 2009 6:58 PM

FREMDFIRMA

Quote:
YOUR light ? What if most people don't agree with your light ?

Then you DISCUSS, you NEGOTIATE, something which, despite all his trashtalk, Wulf does in fact seem to making his best stab at - and gettin mucha nothin but sweat and regret back.

Yeah, telling someone to siddown and shut up when what they want in their hearts is to make the world a better place for everyone, even if they're going about it in a messed up kinda way - that's NOT a plan imma get on board with, and never will be.

Frankly, I find it offensive.

-F

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Tuesday, September 22, 2009 7:18 PM

DREAMTROVE

Mangolo

Thanks, now I can use your retina scan to steal your identity

Frem

I just give Wulf a rough time because I think he's race baiting to make himself the topic of conversation, sorta like Kanye West.

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Tuesday, September 22, 2009 7:18 PM

DREAMTROVE

Mangolo

Thanks, now I can use your retina scan to steal your identity

Frem

I just give Wulf a rough time because I think he's race baiting to make himself the topic of conversation, sorta like Kanye West.

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Tuesday, September 22, 2009 8:17 PM

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg

"I just give Wulf a rough time because I think he's race baiting to make himself the topic of conversation, sorta like Kanye West."

Ouch..

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Tuesday, September 22, 2009 10:12 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by dreamtrove:
Mangolo
Thanks, now I can use your retina scan to steal your identity

Mwahahaha. You only have my iris. You're going to have to go a lot deeper for the retina.

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Wednesday, September 23, 2009 2:19 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Wulfenstar:
"I just give Wulf a rough time because I think he's race baiting to make himself the topic of conversation, sorta like Kanye West."

Ouch..

Okay, that was actually funny.

Mike

Old friend charity
Cruel twisted smile
And the smile signals emptiness
For me
Starless and Bible black

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Wednesday, September 23, 2009 2:26 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Fremdfirma:
Quote:
YOUR light ? What if most people don't agree with your light ?

Then you DISCUSS, you NEGOTIATE, something which, despite all his trashtalk, Wulf does in fact seem to making his best stab at - and gettin mucha nothin but sweat and regret back.

Yeah, telling someone to siddown and shut up when what they want in their hearts is to make the world a better place for everyone, even if they're going about it in a messed up kinda way - that's NOT a plan imma get on board with, and never will be.

Frankly, I find it offensive.

-F

Then you're no doubt offended when Wulfie essentially tells Rue to siddown and shuddup, yes? Because like it or not, that's what he's been doing every time she asks the uncomfortable questions.

And I'm not against negotiating and discussing these things; first, though, I think the question needs to be asked and considered: "Why do you think that?"

I'd really like to be able to call Wulf a "former racist" one day, and I'm hoping he'll help that happen.

Mike

Old friend charity
Cruel twisted smile
And the smile signals emptiness
For me
Starless and Bible black

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Wednesday, September 23, 2009 2:57 AM

GRIZWALD

Quote:
Originally posted by pizmobeach:
Is Obama a "Black President?" "African American?" "White?"

Our President is whatever he chooses to identify himself. His self identity is more important than what the rest of us choose to call him.

I'd just call him Sir.

___________________________________________________
High Priestess of Pork and Ag-Related Activities of the MYTHICAL LAND OF IOWA

Click on my profile for my Annoyingly Long List of Firefly Links.

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Wednesday, September 23, 2009 3:03 AM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

WULF

Quote:
Why do people feel the need to label someone as an African-American, or a Chinese-American? Instead of just American?

Good question. No idea.

FREM

Quote:
Then you're no doubt offended when Wulfie essentially tells Rue to siddown and shuddup, yes? Because like it or not, that's what he's been doing every time she asks the uncomfortable questions.

Indeed. You have a BIG double standard, Frem. I know that you have a soft spot in your heart for Wulf. That's OK, but don't pretend to be fair about it.

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Wednesday, September 23, 2009 3:19 AM

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg

Then if you dont want freedom, you can choose to never leave your house.

Leave my freedoms alone.

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Wednesday, September 23, 2009 3:23 AM

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg

"I'd just call him Sir."

Actually, isn't the correct honorific, "Mr. President"?

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Wednesday, September 23, 2009 3:36 AM

GRIZWALD

That's probably quite correct.

___________________________________________________
High Priestess of Pork and Ag-Related Activities of the MYTHICAL LAND OF IOWA

Click on my profile for my Annoyingly Long List of Firefly Links.

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Wednesday, September 23, 2009 5:43 AM

PIZMOBEACH

... fully loaded, safety off...

Quote:
Originally posted by Grizwald:
Quote:
Originally posted by pizmobeach:
Is Obama a "Black President?" "African American?" "White?"

Our President is whatever he chooses to identify himself. His self identity is more important than what the rest of us choose to call him.

I'd just call him Sir.

Good point about how one identifies oneself - from what I've read that is a tough subject for those of mixed parents - who do I relate to? What's my culture?

In this case - our president - I do think it's important how the media labels him, especially given former president Carter's remarks and other opinions of the same.

Frem - I personally think that amongst his better posts Wulf just likes f*cking with liberals, likes to see them twist. I think their bleeding hearts offend him. Fine, have your sport, it's every bit as tiring as those that yell at him.

I do agree with his no-more-hyphens-Americans idea. I have always thought that hyphenated-American was odd (I'm Scotch-German-Irish-American - eh, wha?) and even slightly offensive, "you want to split from the rest of us - even though we're supposedly the land of immigrants, misfits and mutts??" But not having been in a minorities' shoes I gave up worrying about it - too much energy for something I'll never know or understand. I trust that it's sincere and that's enough.

But now? Now actually might be a good time for a silly broad nationalistic gesture, especially if it came from someone like BO - seems like he said that in his big debut speech many years ago...

"Now even as we speak, there are those who are preparing to divide us, the spin masters, the negative ad peddlers who embrace the politics of anything goes.

Well, I say to them tonight, there is not a liberal America and a conservative America — there is the United States of America. There is not a Black America and a White America and Latino America and Asian America — there’s the United States of America."

Scifi movie music + Firefly dialogue clips, 24 hours a day - http://www.scifiradio.com Now available on your iPhone

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Wednesday, September 23, 2009 5:53 AM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Quote:
Then if you dont want freedom, you can choose to never leave your house.

Thank you, massah! May I have another!?

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Wednesday, September 23, 2009 6:12 AM

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...

Wow, KPO, you would be "irked" with me if I said I had a boyfriend and when you met him he was other than Caucasian, because I hadn't mentioned it?

Hmmmm....verrrry interesting....

Ah, wait, there's more to it. You said the delineation was useful because of what it would give you "a general inkling of what might be her religion, politics, values, cullinary habits etc." Yet from what Rue said, describing her as Philippino ONLY tells you what she MIGHT look like (tho' if more than a couple of generations, maybe not even that...?), but nothing about the other things. Yet you focused on the physical characteristics.

I find that fascinating. How would you feel about a friend who told you they had a girlfriend in America, who told you all about their a general inkling of what might be her religion, politics, values, cullinary habits, etc., but didn't mention they were Philippino? Given Rue's example, it could be just the neighbor she's speaking of and none of those might give any indication of her race, yet when you met her in person, the first thing you'd notice (I'm assuming) would be her Philippino features. Would you still be "irked"? Just curious.

Mangolo, my since apologies on behalf of my country...or rather, those in my country who are ashamed of what happened. I know that's not all of us, even all of us here no doubt, but I abhorred it. Mob mentality; lowest possible denominator; and just plain letting fear get the better of one. We have a 7-11 run by a Muslim family where I used to buy my cigarettes. After I head about the various persecutions, next time I went in I asked if they were okay; they said their regular customers were all asking that and helping make sure nothing bad happened to them. I was proud to be a Marinite that day.

On the other hand, there was a restaurant I adored in town called Bamiyan (name of the place in Afghanistan where the huge statue of Buddha was carved into the mountain). It was the only place I could go to get Afghan food, and it disappeared. Dunno if it was harrassment or loss of business, but I sure miss it!

Quote:
Now actually might be a good time for a silly broad nationalistic gesture, especially if it came from someone like BO - seems like he said that in his big debut speech many years ago...

I think that's a waste of time. Would be a nice gesture, but would mean absolutely nothing to those who hate him, for whatever reason. I don't think we can appeal to ANY part of their nature to convince them to act differently. Gone too far. Can only hope time...but it's a faint hope, for me.

Dream: You thought I was Black??? Where'd you get that idea...makes me smile. And who is Kathy? Actually, dad had real olive skin which I inherited--I have to work HARD to sunburn, and tan if I look at the sun sideways. Real dark. I've sometimes been asked if I'm Hispanic. Given I can't even speak Spanish, it always made me smile. So who knows? Tho' I know my mom was a French immigrant, all I know about dad is he came from "Back East somewhere"...most likely New York. Maybe I've got something in my heritage...I'd like that.

________________________
Together we are greater than the sum of our parts

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Wednesday, September 23, 2009 7:37 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Wulfenstar:
"I'd just call him Sir."

Actually, isn't the correct honorific, "Mr. President"?

In general, yes. But there are times when a simple "Yes, sir" or "No, sir" will suffice, such as answering a short, direct question. But for the most part, it's better to err on the side of caution, and address the President as "Mister (or Madame, hopefully one day) President".

So on the day we finally DO get a woman President, what shall we address her as? "Madame President" seems a little too formal, and possibly even a little too... hookerish, if you'll forgive the association.

"Mizz President"? "Missus President"? "Miss President"?

Just wondering...

Mike

Old friend charity
Cruel twisted smile
And the smile signals emptiness
For me
Starless and Bible black

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Wednesday, September 23, 2009 7:44 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
WULF
Quote:
Why do people feel the need to label someone as an African-American, or a Chinese-American? Instead of just American?
Good question. No idea.

FREM
Quote:
Then you're no doubt offended when Wulfie essentially tells Rue to siddown and shuddup, yes? Because like it or not, that's what he's been doing every time she asks the uncomfortable questions.
Indeed. You have a BIG double standard, Frem. I know that you have a soft spot in your heart for Wulf. That's OK, but don't pretend to be fair about it.

Not exactly what I meant, but you get the general gist of it.

I'm probably harsher on Wulf than I need to be, but sometimes the stuff he utters just takes me aback, and leaves me going, "What the FUCK?!" And it brings out the worst in me.

But what I'm really trying to get at is to get Wulf asking HIMSELF "Why do I think that way? Where did I ever accept that as truth? Why haven't I questioned this?", instead of us having to ask.

If I'm hard on him, it's because I've seen a lot of that before - some of it in myself. And the only way I ever got past it was by questioning it - and the only way I ever learned to do that was by having someone ELSE question it first, and get me thinking about it.

Mike

Old friend charity
Cruel twisted smile
And the smile signals emptiness
For me
Starless and Bible black

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Wednesday, September 23, 2009 7:57 AM

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg

"Then if you dont want freedom, you can choose to never leave your house.

Thank you, massah! May I have another!? "

What? Its true. In the same way that, if you don't like whats on t.v., you can change the channel or turn it off.

So, you don't like people saying stuff you don't agree with, you don't have to listen. You don't agree with carrying firearms, you don't have to... or you don't even have to go outside.

Otherwise, you have no right to impinge on my freedoms as guaranteed by the Constitution.

Like I said, you can always stay indoors with the shades drawn.

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Wednesday, September 23, 2009 8:13 AM

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

My general observation:

I've seen people, when facing irrefutable facts, even people on this board NOT Wulf, spin stranger and more convoluted yarns to support their crazy notions. Of their own volition, they continued to walk further and further into insanity, no matter how many questions were posed, no matter how many observations were made, no matter how many facts were presented.

It seems to me there are powerful rewarding motivators at work that make people do this.

In time, those may be opposed by negative motivators (I can't go on like this, I'm going to lose something important to me with this) or even more powerful positive motivators (there is a much, much better way) - some kind of reason to change.

MOST people, when dealing with the negative effects of their personal history, recognize them as problems. They've gotten to the stage of negative or more powerful postive motivators. They try to solve them, mitigate them, or at least find ways to avoid them.

But to change, you have to first recognize those things as problems, you have to have motivation to change, and you have to have the resources to do it. Otherwise, it won't happen. And some people are stuck at the first step.

***************************************************************

Silence is consent.

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Wednesday, September 23, 2009 9:21 AM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

WULF-First of all, what makes you think I don't like freedom? It may not be the freedom YOU envision, but to me, it is.

Secondly:

Quote:
Like I said, you can always stay indoors with the shades drawn.

"Freedom?" Or staying indoors with the shades drawn...? Stupid options, badly stated. A false dilemma. It's not helpful.

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Wednesday, September 23, 2009 9:25 AM

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg

No, you would like to curtail freedoms for EVERYONE. "Sensible" is the new propaganda catch word for this nonsense lately.

I'M saying that YOU, singular, are free to NOT participate in a world, which is enjoying the rights given by the Constitution, if that is how you wish.

I m also saying that you DON'T have the right to curtail MY freedoms for YOUR comfort.

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Wednesday, September 23, 2009 9:28 AM

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...

Quote:
I've seen people, when facing irrefutable facts, even people on this board NOT Wulf, spin stranger and more convoluted yarns to support their crazy notions. Of their own volition, they continued to walk further and further into insanity, no matter how many questions were posed, no matter how many observations were made, no matter how many facts were presented.

Uh, Rue, remember a long thread we had going about authoritarians?

________________________
Together we are greater than the sum of our parts

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Wednesday, September 23, 2009 9:34 AM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

WUlf- later, 'gator.

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Wednesday, September 23, 2009 9:43 AM

Sometimes you own the libs. Sometimes, the libs own you.

Quote:
Wow, KPO, you would be "irked" with me if I said I had a boyfriend and when you met him he was other than Caucasian, because I hadn't mentioned it?

I'm less interested in boys.

Quote:
Ah, wait, there's more to it. You said the delineation was useful because of what it would give you "a general inkling of what might be her religion, politics, values, cullinary habits etc." Yet from what Rue said, describing her as Philippino ONLY tells you what she MIGHT look like (tho' if more than a couple of generations, maybe not even that...?), but nothing about the other things. Yet you focused on the physical characteristics.

That was the obvious exception to the rule... plus I was being a little bit flippant. I think there would be more exceptions.

Quote:
I find that fascinating. How would you feel about a friend who told you they had a girlfriend in America, who told you all about their a general inkling of what might be her religion, politics, values, cullinary habits, etc., but didn't mention they were Philippino? Given Rue's example, it could be just the neighbor she's speaking of and none of those might give any indication of her race, yet when you met her in person, the first thing you'd notice (I'm assuming) would be her Philippino features. Would you still be "irked"? Just curious.

It would be weird if a 100% Phillipino person's heritage had no influence on any of these mentioned habits/values, and weird if my friend neglected to mention that Phillipino influence - irksome if he did it 'on principle'.

Quote:
Actually, dad had real olive skin which I inherited--I have to work HARD to sunburn, and tan if I look at the sun sideways. Real dark. I've sometimes been asked if I'm Hispanic. Given I can't even speak Spanish, it always made me smile. So who knows? Tho' I know my mom was a French immigrant, all I know about dad is he came from "Back East somewhere"...most likely New York. Maybe I've got something in my heritage...I'd like that.

This is pretty much what I'm talking about.

Heads should roll

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Wednesday, September 23, 2009 9:57 AM

FREMDFIRMA

Ya'll need to have a firm look at your own actions and statements before calling double standard on me, I think.

All too many times, the guy says something debateable or potentially offensive, and just because you got personal issues, or whatever reason you have, you come down on him with a bang not so much for what he's sayin as much as cause it's HIM saying it - and when after biting his tongue through three and four of those before snarking back, do you really think imma call him up short for returning the favor, especially when I did not do so to YOU right off the top neither ?

And since y'all WANT to make an issue of it, I am perhaps not too keen on Rue's bitter little sit-down-shut-up-were-all-doomed-anyway attitude about things, I think it's counterproductive and ineffective to these discussions and wonder what issues behind it are having such an adverse affect on her personally cause despite our often bitter disagreements it strikes me as out of character for her, allright ?

There really isn't a way to handle an issue like this without offending anyone, Wulf is trying to sort though years of racial issues and intolerance, and find a way to cope - turn it around for a moment if you can and look at it from THAT end of the viewpoint - how DO you describe someone without offense, who decides what's offensive and what's not, WHY is this label "ok" and this one "racist" - questions which are not being asked as a form of race baiting, but rather as a form of "Well, ok, now what ?!" from someone who is actively TRYING to climb above their own racism and not being well understood about it cause they're not quite as articulate or confident with their own expression regarding the topic, and still struggling with internal habits which are makin it just that damn much harder when his efforts are met with misunderstanding and snark.
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ReformedButRejected

Again, PATIENCE - do you think folks overcome two decades of that kinda belief in two weeks, especially when often as not most of their family and associates still believe that way and constantly try to reinforce those beliefs ?

Hell, I *still* go round and round with my niece for using the N-word cause her mother and schoolmates do, which I find *profoundly* offensive to the point where even as hostile and profane as *I* am, that word will NOT come out of my mouth under ANY circumstances whatever.
(yeah yeah, stop laughing, I gotta draw the line somewhere)

Also remember it's not my way to shove someone down a path, just shine a light on it for em, and if they stumble here and there, wait till they ASK for help before stepping into it, it's my way, and y'all should know that by now.

-Frem

It cannot be said enough, those who do not learn from history, are doomed to endlessly repeat it

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Wednesday, September 23, 2009 12:36 PM