Pro-life? by Niki2

Pro-life is a religious position, a tenet of faith, doesn't really denote politics. True, I see the inconsistency when someone is pro-life and pro-death penalty, that doesn't make a lot of sense. (Yes, it's feasible under the logic that you are born perfect and then can become flawed) which might work under Christianity, doesn't work under Taoism.

I get the contradiction on healthcare, but this isn't about "should their be healthcare" it's about how it should be done. I'm having a lot of trouble getting cancer treatments now because of the bureaucracy. I think if it were a total free market system I wouldn't have that proble. I suspect that under a socialized system it would be worse. The numbers out there on the healthcare plan are pretty stark: The result would be just over 1/2 the dollar amount per patient than is being spent now, even after price controls. You can bet that under such a system the bureaucrats are going to turn into "denial of services" clinics, just like a lot of corporate law offices have turned into "denial of claims" depts.

(Officially, this office in a corpoaration is called "Dept. of claims acceptance," the running joke among lawyers is "Dept. of claims denial.")

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Tuesday, September 22, 2009 11:58 PM

The pro-life pro-death supporters are not interested in "perfection" but rather INNOCENCE. Born Innocent, the Innocent should not be murdered as the anti-life liberals desire. Once proven to be guilty of capital crimes, those who have made conscious decisions to avoid innocence have earned the Death Penalty. Not very contradictory at all.

Much less contradictory than the Murder-the-Innocent-at-Birth but Warehouse-and-Coddle-the-Evil-Murderers groups (aka liberals).

DT - hope you are doing well, is it soft-tissue? have you checked out Dr Gold and the American Cancer Institute?

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Wednesday, September 23, 2009 12:53 AM

Quote:
those who have made conscious decisions to avoid innocence have earned the Death Penalty.

That very specifically in my eyes includes you, sock puppet - I'd grind your living tissues under my bootsoles without a care in the world, and go have ice cream after, and you know why ?

Because anyone who sells their very personhood to an agenda without regard to who and what it destroys, is no longer a human being, and thus hath "avoided innocence" entire.

To me, you and your ilk are just the triggermen of tyranny, the living, breathing implements without which, it could not function.

And to be brutally honest, a concept you have no familiarity with when you're too much the coward to even use your own posting name since you've completely despoiled it and ruined any reputation it had beyond jackboot licking scum - you don't give a rats ass yourself, most "pro-lifers" only give a shit right up to the moment it pops out, getting off on forcing their will upon others to absolve the guilt of their own monstrous behavior, and ignorantly condemning innocent children to the hell of being unwelcome and unwanted in this world and society.

And that is a hell I know quite well, even intimately, you might say - which is why I despise them so - especially when their hypocrisy is revealed in all it's unholy and disgusting glory by their roadblocking actual education and access to birth control, all the while decrying the only option those kept ignorant and out of reach have left to them, a bitter act of malice and deliberate cruelty I won't even pretend is accidental.

Pro "life" my ass, you and your ilk don't even know the meaning of the word, and surely do not deserve to have it applied to you, for you are no more than an object and an obstacle, just a bit of debris I plan to kick out of the way as it hinders my path, and of no more value.

-Frem

It cannot be said enough, those who do not learn from history, are doomed to endlessly repeat it

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Wednesday, September 23, 2009 1:55 AM

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)

I'm not seeing a whole lot of full-term, nine-month abortions, so I don't really get your whole "murdered-at-birth" line of crapola, JSF.

And just to be clear, these people aren't "pro-life". They're "anti-choice"; they don't want YOU to have any choices in the matter. They want government completely out health care - except in this instance. They want to keep government completely out of your private life - except in this instance. They want to keep your privacy and your medical records completely private - except in this instance. They want to keep the government completely out of your "freedom" - except in this instance. And in this instance, they want COMPLETE government control of your life, because you obviously can't be trusted to know what's best for you.

I suppose I should feel some relief that at least JSF admits he's not against murder per se. By the way, you do realize that there are "christians" who don't consider even newborns to be truly innocent, right? They're born of sin, according to some, and the only way to NOT be born of sin and thus stained by sin is to not be born at all. So you could say that in a sense, abortion is "doing God's work".

Mike

Old friend charity
Cruel twisted smile
And the smile signals emptiness
For me
Starless and Bible black

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Wednesday, September 23, 2009 3:30 AM

WULFENSTAR

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg

Ok, this may be a silly question.... but its a phrase that gets tossed around quite a bit here..

Whats a "sock puppet"?

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Wednesday, September 23, 2009 7:29 AM

It's a term for someone's "alter ego", so to speak - say you want to pump up your position, make it look like you've got more support than you do; you invent a new online persona, who is really you, but claims to be someone else, and who supports your positions in every possible way.

It's also done by people who claim they'll never set foot in RWED again, but who just can't resist the temptation. I believe that's who Frem is referring to with JSF. And I think he's probably correct in that conclusion. :D

I've been accused of being Rue's sockpuppet. I'll take that as quite a compliment, since I consider her quite intelligent. She and I disagree quite vehemently on Second Amendment issues, though, so if one of us is the puppet of the other, we really suck at it...

Mike

Old friend charity
Cruel twisted smile
And the smile signals emptiness
For me
Starless and Bible black

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Wednesday, September 23, 2009 8:00 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...

Quote:
Much less contradictory than the Murder-the-Innocent-at-Birth but Warehouse-and-Coddle-the-Evil-Murderers groups (aka liberals).

Now THAT's slanted. And I do not accept the excuse you offer for pro-life, pro-death-penalty; I think it is a complete contradiction in terms and always will. Any pro-lifer who adopts a child that would have been aborted, I will respect. The rest: not so much.

There are so many flaws in the arguments it's pathetic, but neither side will ever convince the other so it's moot.

Quote:
who have made conscious decisions to avoid innocence have earned the Death Penalty

But most of them didn't make a "conscious decision". The majority either have mental illness, came from a situation where it was kill or be killed, were abused as children which warped their thinking, or any number of other things. To say they made a conscious decision is awfully easy for those of us middle-class, comfortable people; again, it's white and black, no greys allowed.

To decide a fetus is a "human being" at conception is equally black-and-white thinking. If so, then every time a woman menstruates or a man jacks off, they're destroying "potential" humans...it's an arbitrary delineation, and is equally stupid. To also say that a woman has to carry a fetus to term when she's been raped, been the victm of incest or it endangers HER life, is unconscionable in my opinion.

It's awfully easy to live in the black and white; it's much harder to search one's humanity to see the greys. Throwing around pejoratives like "anti-life liberals" and "Murder-the-Innocent-at-Birth but Warehouse-and-Coddle-the-Evil-Murderers groups (aka liberals)" is pathetic parroting of slogans that have no meaning. It costs more to put someone to death than it does to keep them in prison; how many people have repented in prison and gone on to do good works?

The right is sooo willing to excuse its transgressors--against the very things that make up its supposed strongest beliefs--yet unwilling to see the greys in human beings. It sickens me. In this I am with Frem; tho' I wouldn't hurt you, I decry your attitudes, as they have in large part caused many of the problems that exist today. To call yourselve "pro-life" is exactly as erroneous as Frem says; if you were truly "pro-life", you'd want to save ALL lives, not just make an issue out of the yet-unborn, AND you wouldn't tolerate fanatics who kill doctors.

Nope, "pro-life" is a catch phrase and totally fallacious. "Pro-agenda" is more like it.

I'm not for or against the death penalty; nor am I for or against abortion. I think there are greys in both areas and each case should be decided--carefully--on its merits. Yet right now I'm considered pretty heavily bleeding-heart liberal. So where does that put me in your black-and-white scale of things??

I'm also bisexual and buddhist, so I guess that alone would condemn me. There's only three words for those who live life in the black and white: Pathetic. Self-deluded. And dangerous.

________________________
Together we are greater than the sum of our parts

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Wednesday, September 23, 2009 8:08 AM

WULFENSTAR

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg

I'm Pro-Choice, and Pro Death Penalty.

Heres why:

Pro-Choice: A woman has the right to do with her body as she sees fit. Its also a moral decision that I have nothing to do with, nor does anyone else.

Although, on a personal level, I find it disgusting when some women use it as a form of birth-control... (5 abortions in 4 years? There is something wrong with you little girl... and almost a bit evil. Or at least, sociopathic.)

But again, its not my right to say one way or the other.

Pro Death Penalty: Why? Some people are evil. Some crimes are unforgivable. Some people are, because of their crimes, never to be trusted among humanity again. Get rid of them like you would any dangerous animal.

Just my 2 cents.

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Wednesday, September 23, 2009 8:20 AM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

I had a friend who would snicker about the anti-choice crowd: he would paraphrase their attitude as 'life is sacred - until it's born'.

***************************************************************

Silence is consent.

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Wednesday, September 23, 2009 9:11 AM

BLACKOUTNIGHTS

I believe abortion is wrong. But that's not the issue. The issue is whether I have the right to force that belief on someone else.

I don't believe I do.

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Wednesday, September 23, 2009 9:26 AM

WULFENSTAR

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg

"I believe abortion is wrong. But that's not the issue. The issue is whether I have the right to force that belief on someone else.

I don't believe I do."

Exactly.

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Wednesday, September 23, 2009 9:39 AM

MANGOLO

Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko:
They want government completely out health care - except in this instance. They want to keep government completely out of your private life - except in this instance. They want to keep your privacy and your medical records completely private - except in this instance. They want to keep the government completely out of your "freedom" - except in this instance. And in this instance, they want COMPLETE government control of your life, because you obviously can't be trusted to know what's best for you.

Love this rant. Could be used without alteration for the anti-Marriage Equality movement with the only change in the ending "And in this instance, they want COMPLETE government control who you choose to love for the rest of your life, because you obviously can't be trusted to know what's best for you."

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Wednesday, September 23, 2009 9:51 AM

Quote:

To decide a fetus is a "human being" at conception is equally black-and-white thinking. If so, then every time a woman menstruates or a man jacks off, they're destroying "potential" humans...

Ruh-roh - I think I'm in a heap-o-trouble; I'm a one-man Holocaust!

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Wednesday, September 23, 2009 10:07 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Mangolo:
Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko:
They want government completely out health care - except in this instance. They want to keep government completely out of your private life - except in this instance. They want to keep your privacy and your medical records completely private - except in this instance. They want to keep the government completely out of your "freedom" - except in this instance. And in this instance, they want COMPLETE government control of your life, because you obviously can't be trusted to know what's best for you.

Love this rant. Could be used without alteration for the anti-Marriage Equality movement with the only change in the ending "And in this instance, they want COMPLETE government control who you choose to love for the rest of your life, because you obviously can't be trusted to know what's best for you."

Thany ya kindly; I take that as a high compliment, and completely agree.

Oh, and there's a study and a poll now that back up that assertion, at least as far as same-sex marriage is concerned.

In Massachusetts, the divorce rate has fallen dramatically since they started allowing same-sex marriage. It's now the lowest divorce rate in the nation, and is as low as it's been since before WWII. (I want to say the divorce rate is down around 1.2% now, but I'll have to see if I can dig up that study to check those figures)

So much for the "It will destroy *normal* marriage!" argument...

And a new poll of Iowans asked them what personal impact that very conservative state's legalization of same-sex marriage has had on them (the residents polled). The answer? A resounding 92% of respondents said it has had no impact on them at all.

So it seems that where it's been tried, it's not been a catastrophe, but quite the opposite.

As far as I'm concerned, if you want to marry another consenting adult, have at it, and best of luck to you both. I figure in this crazy shit-hole of a world, if you can find someone to love who loves you back, it's a freaking miracle that should be grabbed for all it's worth and held onto for dear life.

Mike

Old friend charity
Cruel twisted smile
And the smile signals emptiness
For me
Starless and Bible black

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Wednesday, September 23, 2009 10:26 AM

*has a sudden urge to sing stuff from Monty Python*

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Wednesday, September 23, 2009 11:39 AM

"If a sperm is wasted
God gets quite irate!"

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Wednesday, September 23, 2009 11:53 AM

You and me both, Frem, must refrain.

Pro-life versus pro-choice... It's a toughie, and on any given day I could argue either side of the debate.

It's better to just side-stop the whole mud trap and try to discourage unwanted pregnancy from ever happening in the first place.

But there's some cases where absolutely an alternative has to be offered, like rape or if the pregnancy threatens the mother's health.

And of course, there will probably always be instances of accidental pregnancy. If a person has the means to support child care, you'd hope they would keep the kid, if they don't, you'd hope the adoption system worked and wasn't just a psychological disorder and trauma breeding ground. Aren't too many people who honestly wish they'd never been born, never had a chance at life.

Unfortunately, the adoption system ISN'T perfect.

Is a mother killing her newborn (or much earlier than that, a fetus) the same as an adult murderer killing someone, or the system choosing to kill an adult murderer? Perhaps the outcome of the situations are the same (death) but I think it can definitely be argued that the nuances are different.

I don't think one person or a society really has the right to decide who lives and dies. At the same time, a person has the right to the sovereignty of their organs. I think Agent Rouka put this argument very well once. If there is, say, a car accident that you are responsible for, should you be required to volunteer your organs, your body for the victim? Most people would do so because of that same responsibility. But to REQUIRE it? To force someone to donate their body or organs for someone else? That gets a little too ghoulish too contemplate.

Here's another example, one perhaps that conservatives might identify with. Say, for some reason, you're responsible for some guy losing his job. He has to go on some sort of welfare in order to survive, say he'll starve to death otherwise. That's YOUR money the guy is using. Should you be required to pay that money to help this guy? Say also he has to live in your house too. Should that be required?

It's uncomfortable to talk about, because someone who doesn't offer to share with this less fortunate person who can't care for themselves, who won't survive without the help, that is kind of a douchebag thing to do. But is that murder? Is it still the right of the responsible party to DECIDE whether to do a decent thing for someone else?

We can only hope that people will make morally correct decisions. In the meantime, the best we can do is to encourage people to avoid being in these tough situations, teach them ways HOW to avoid it, and offer some kind of support if they end up there anyway.

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Wednesday, September 23, 2009 1:01 PM

HKCAVALIER

Quote:
Originally posted by Bytemite:
Is a mother killing her newborn (or much earlier than that, a fetus) the same as an adult murderer killing someone, or the system choosing to kill an adult murderer? Perhaps the outcome of the situations are the same (death) but I think it can definitely be argued that the nuances are different.

The answer's obvious isn't it? Would you hire a woman who had an abortion over a man who killed someone while he was robbing a bank? Would it disturb you if the bank robbery murderer had never been caught and brought to justice? And what about the woman who had an abortion? Should we lock her up? Can any sane person see these options as remotely equal? "Nuance?" Really?

How 'bout this: would you hire a woman who had an abortion over a woman who deliberately drowned her baby in the kitchen sink?

Anyone can see that the bank robber and the mother who drowned her baby have serious gorram issues--issues that would likely negatively impact their participation in society. Just a bit. But the woman who had an abortion? What kind of threat is a woman who "may have a tendency to abort a fetus?" Having an abortion and ending a fully developed human being's life through deliberate malicious action ARE COMPLETELY UNRELATED phenomena. Oy!

HKCavalier

Hey, hey, hey, don't be mean. We don't have to be mean, because, remember, no matter where you go, there you are.

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Wednesday, September 23, 2009 1:07 PM

Nuance was perhaps an understatement.

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Wednesday, September 23, 2009 1:22 PM

JSF

I got kicked back to february. Our damn medical system is a menace, my public option is really an hmo.

Quote:
Whats a "sock puppet"?

This was funny. I hope there was an explanation, but a list would be more entertaining. I suspect Frem has one. I have some suspects.

Wulf,

I consistently oppose you

religious conviction of course. "Respect all living things and the course of nature." Not 100% faith-based here, but it's a better moral fallback than nothing. I only take exception when I can see the logic. Kill the foetus to save the mother, kill Cho to save his next victim. "Least death" is tricky though, you have to be right.

Mike

You're not Kathy, I'm sure of that. If you were anyone I'd say you were Frem, but I know this isn't true: Frem doesn't have time to get caught up in partisan battles and you do. I try not to, but sometimes... But I know for a fact that you're River 6213.

Quote:
'life is sacred - until it's born'.

Kathy, I agree these people are morons. I suspect their logic goes something like this:

Save the foetus! Save the foetus! Ah, here's the baby! Oh, wait, Not Jesus? Fuck it. Save the next foetus!

Quote:
Lurker

I believe abortion is wrong. But that's not the issue. The issue is whether I have the right to force that belief on someone else.

I don't believe I do.

I think that's an issue of legislation. Hopefully, there would be no govt. I'm hoping twitter will make govt. go away

Quote:

Love this rant.

Sorry, didn't read it. I read tweets

Quote:

To decide a fetus is a "human being" at conception is equally black-and-white thinking. If so, then every time a woman menstruates or a man jacks off, they're destroying "potential" humans...

This whole logic is so alien to me. What limits life is resources, not seeds. Thousands of seeds fall from each tree each year. But there's not room for 100,000% annual increase in the tree population.

I could go on, but I am ducking this argument.

Quote:

Frem:
*has a sudden urge to sing stuff from Monty Python*

Mike:
"If a sperm is wasted
God gets quite irate!"

Oops. On second thought, maybe Mike is Frem's sockpuppet.

Byte,

In addition to the moral issue there's the ZPG angle: Who is influencing the growth or lack there of in which population. This is where policy can be a special manipulative evil.

Quote:
HK
Would you hire a woman who had an abortion over a man who killed someone while he was robbing a bank?

Depends on their qualifications. I've hired both. I'm sure other people here have as well.

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Wednesday, September 23, 2009 1:54 PM

PIZMOBEACH

... fully loaded, safety off...

Abortion debate OR...

while not perfectly appropriate someone did mention Monty Python.

Is it me or do their sketches just get better and darker and better?
"Aaaaannnnd... frightening."

So much funny. I'm afraid I knew people who didn't get their humor at all, didn't get that they were damning health care with humor, thought they were just being smart asses...

Scifi movie music + Firefly dialogue clips, 24 hours a day - http://www.scifiradio.com Now available on your iPhone

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Wednesday, September 23, 2009 2:11 PM

TDBROWN

Quote:
Originally posted by BlackoutNights:

I believe abortion is wrong. But that's not the issue. The issue is whether I have the right to force that belief on someone else.

I don't believe I do.

I'm with you, BlackoutNights, as long as an informed choice has been made.

I know four people who have had abortions, and to be honest, only one is satisfied with the decision she made. The other three have come to regret and even mourn the decision they made. This is not my opinion; it's a fact.

"Might have been the losing side, still not convinced it was the wrong one." -Mal

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Wednesday, September 23, 2009 2:13 PM

Hehe, I bet I know who else DT suspects is Frem's sockpuppet. Not too many ways I can prove otherwise, though, we do agree on quite a number of things. It's almost not worth it for me to respond on the RWED, 'cause Frem's just going to come in better informed with links and references instead of my intuition and various if-then conclusions.

Quote:
Byte,

In addition to the moral issue there's the ZPG angle: Who is influencing the growth or lack there of in which population. This is where policy can be a special manipulative evil.

Well, I kind of consider that a moral issue in of itself. Abuse of power is kind of a no-no. But, it happens/ is happening.

Sorry about my previous post, it was not "tweet" sized.

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Wednesday, September 23, 2009 3:02 PM

Quote:

Sorry about my previous post, it was not "tweet" sized.

Nah, it was Byte-sized ;)

Ne'er accused you of being his sock puppet, just his groupie. Frem would never tip his hand that much. Though I do think you have a pretty deep understanding for 24, either wise past your years or a little number transposition

ZPG is pretty evil as an abuse of power, but that's another story

If Frem had a sock puppet, it would be evil. He would do something just to fuck with people, so would Mike. Most people who have sock puppets use them to say things that they don't want associated with their "character" but would say anyway; Frem and Mike would create enemies.

If Frem had a sock puppet it would be Geezer or someone, and I think if Mike had one, it would be Whozit. Mike had just that jackass quality where he wants to totally prank everyone and then pulls back into rational dialoge, but I can see him going all Dr. Jeckyl and Mr. Hyde on us.

I kinda regret not doing it. It would've been fun to fuck with people. I think it's too late for me to do it here, people know my speech patterns too well.

Sometimes sockpuppets totally spill their hand by using wordings unique to them, (as in the scene in Project X with matthew broderick) but even more discreetly, they sometimes reference things said before they joined. True, they could be long term lurkers or have read the archives (my total lack of a god, what a thought) But more likely if they refer to something said in '07 and their account dates to october '08, it's that they momentarily forgot when their sock puppet was created.

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Wednesday, September 23, 2009 3:40 PM

I've seen sockpuppets exposed other places on the web, some pretty spectacularly. Like, for example, on a forum for an MMORPG, there was someone who accused someone else of ripping them off during an item trade. There was a middle man involved with setting up the deal. Then the supposed thief ALSO showed up to defend himself with a pretty lame explanation about using his friend's computer or something.

One particularly cunning poster noticed during the middle man's efforts to calm the victim that there was an unusual similarity in both the middleman and the thief's posting styles: to emphasize words, they both tends to put *stars* around them.

Immediately the two tried defending themselves, then slipped up. One of them accidentally posted a response logged in as his alter-ego.

After a post where he realized and tried to make ANOTHER lame excuse, he figured out that the jig was up and confessed.

That's something to look for too. Emphasis.

Also, I don't think either Frem or Kwicko could QUITE bring themselves to imitate Whozits or Geezer. As I've observed, they practically need soap if the rare agreement does happen. But evil doppelgangers... I could see that. Someone with their views but more vicious.

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Wednesday, September 23, 2009 4:51 PM

I could probably make a jackass liberal sock puppet. People make dumb sockpuppets to support ridiculous arguments and the public falls in line like well, puppets. I'm pretty sure the anti-healthcare thing was started by pro-healthcare dems with sockpuppets and dumb reps fell in line behind it. My first tip off, the swastikas. Everyone knows godwin's law, in any demographic, there will be at least one person to point it out.

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Wednesday, September 23, 2009 5:56 PM

Oh man, that machiavellian, I ain't - if I even tried y'all would catch me out in a heartbeat cause my verbal style is just too cursed distinctive.
And has caught, historically, four imposters in the past ten years cause it's apparently nigh-impossible to duplicate.

Now madness-blinded wingnuts, sure, they'd fall for it, especially when I *can* switch genders on the fly, since my thought processes for whatever inexplicable reasons can work in both directions, and wingnuts are EASY bait for any female who shows the slightest bit of sympathy for them or their beliefs.

S'funny, I had to help a female gamer rebuild a voice distorter to wire into her mic so that she sounded male when she played Halo, in order to avoid the usual "issues" which crop up when a female gun-gamer appears on scene.

Men are fools, all and every, but damn I ain't never been THAT much of one.

-Frem

It cannot be said enough, those who do not learn from history, are doomed to endlessly repeat it

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Wednesday, September 23, 2009 7:02 PM

True, we've all been here too long. I have a short sock puppet list, but I don't usually communicate with them.

As a writer I could do a decent female character. It's something I worked very very hard at, because that's one thing that shoots you dead as a writer: Your men and women have to behave like men and women, and kids too, even the dog's gotta behave like a dog. But so many people, easily 99% who try can't do it. The opposite gender characters are either some ridiculous sexual fantasy or a total clone of the writer's gender, just with a different name.

But I agree, none of us could do it here.

Oh, and Frem, sometimes the stuff you post I have a lot of trouble parsing, but I want to, because I want to be able to organize. I've been an army of one so much of my life that when I run things that involve more than just me, it's pretty much an autocracy, and I am motivated to run something larger than I will be able to manage. At the moment this thing with "Clean Sweep" has me. I think it's that it's Gaza on my doorstep.

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Thursday, September 24, 2009 1:49 AM

Quote:

Mike

You're not Kathy, I'm sure of that. If you were anyone I'd say you were Frem, but I know this isn't true: Frem doesn't have time to get caught up in partisan battles and you do. I try not to, but sometimes... But I know for a fact that you're River 6213.

Thanks for that, DT - you made me laugh my morning coffee out my nose!

I'll state for the record that I'm absolutely *NOT* River6213, or any other kind of tributary, creek, stream, or wetland. I'm also not Frem, but a great many of his ideals are worthy of emulation.

A list could be fun and illuminating.

Mike

Old friend charity
Cruel twisted smile
And the smile signals emptiness
For me
Starless and Bible black

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Thursday, September 24, 2009 2:04 AM

Quote:

If Frem had a sock puppet it would be Geezer or someone, and I think if Mike had one, it would be Whozit. Mike had just that jackass quality where he wants to totally prank everyone and then pulls back into rational dialoge, but I can see him going all Dr. Jeckyl and Mr. Hyde on us.

I kinda regret not doing it. It would've been fun to fuck with people. I think it's too late for me to do it here, people know my speech patterns too well.

Christ, that WOULD be an awesome idea. There's been plenty enough speculation that KINGEicholz is a sockpuppet, but I have no idea who would have him as one.

Me? I don't have time for sockpuppets. This place takes up enough of my spare time as it is!

I've never really suspected Frem of having one, either - I just find him to be too damn direct. If he wants to say something, he's just going to say it, no pussy-footing around.

Mike

Old friend charity
Cruel twisted smile
And the smile signals emptiness
For me
Starless and Bible black

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Thursday, September 24, 2009 3:20 AM

Mike,

lol

You would need more to create a character, speech pattern, and knowledge base that a sockpuppet would have, and never slip up.

The archetype sockpuppet here is kaneman, and I think that's the simplest one, but it's not very useful. Kaneman just insulted people, and was always with the caps and obnoxious language, and I think we generally agreed that he *really* was River6213. But it's one of her less artful sockpuppets. I actually think she's good enough to be here right now and for us not to know it, but that it took a fair amount of practice.

Probably one mistake we made for doing it here was revealing too much of ourselves. If we were deliberately doing it, we could probably subdivide our experience and knowledgebase into separate personalities. I'm simultaneously a taoist herbalist tomato farmer historian who can write a mean hacker program. You and Frem could have similar lists that you've displayed here. If we were to raid some other forum, I could definitely divide myself into, say, a conservative rural farmer from kentucky, and a gamer geek from NY who can recite monty python, etc.

The more I think about this, the more it sounds like it would be fun to invade something like dailykos and fuck with people. Probably start with something smaller

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Thursday, September 24, 2009 7:41 AM

Quote:
You would need more to create a character, speech pattern, and knowledge base that a sockpuppet would have, and never slip up.

See, I could create the character, no doubt, and a knowledge base wouldn't be a problem - but staying AWAY from certain knowledge bases for me WOULD be a problem, because it just seeps in. And the language, vocabulary, and speech patterns would be pretty hard for me to step away from. It would definitely take more conscious energy than I'm willing to put into it. And the never slipping up part would be the killer - I log on without even looking at the screen, my ID and password are so intrinsic to me. Trying to remember to use different ones, and NEVER get it wrong, would be my downfall, I'm sure.

I like your idea of invading another place with an army of sockpuppets, though. I think I'll hit Fox, or some of the hard-right forums! :)

Mike

Old friend charity
Cruel twisted smile
And the smile signals emptiness
For me
Starless and Bible black

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Thursday, September 24, 2009 8:55 AM

Fox is a good call. We should conspire to attack something smaller though. Prepare for something like fox.

;) A little social experiment in fucking with people.

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Thursday, September 24, 2009 12:09 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko:
I've never really suspected Frem of having one, either - I just find him to be too damn direct. If he wants to say something, he's just going to say it, no pussy-footing around.

Ayeh, I have been called the verbal equivalent of a Komatsu D575A-3 a couple times, and it weren't meant as a compliment.

If yer gonna try this stunt though, stay away from my right wing lemming hordes, ok - cause fouling my efforts to march em off the cliff so they land on stuff needin broken anyway would seriously piss me off.

-F

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Thursday, September 24, 2009 12:34 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by dreamtrove:
Fox is a good call. We should conspire to attack something smaller though. Prepare for something like fox.

;) A little social experiment in fucking with people.

Color me paranoid, DT, but I'm not agreeing to ANY kind of attack on FauxNews or anywhere else. I'll not condone it, either. Which isn't to say I wouldn't giggle my freakin' ass off if someone else were to do so...

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Thursday, September 24, 2009 12:37 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Fremdfirma:
Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko:
I've never really suspected Frem of having one, either - I just find him to be too damn direct. If he wants to say something, he's just going to say it, no pussy-footing around.

Ayeh, I have been called the verbal equivalent of a Komatsu D575A-3 a couple times, and it weren't meant as a compliment.

Might not have been MEANT as a compliment, but I bet you took it as one, eh?

Quote:

If yer gonna try this stunt though, stay away from my right wing lemming hordes, ok - cause fouling my efforts to march em off the cliff so they land on stuff needin broken anyway would seriously piss me off.

-F

You've got a free-fire zone; I'll stay clear. Happy hunting!

Mike

Old friend charity
Cruel twisted smile
And the smile signals emptiness
For me
Starless and Bible black

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Thursday, September 24, 2009 4:59 PM

Mike

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Friday, September 25, 2009 1:50 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by dreamtrove:
Mike

Blame it on the times we live in. I choose my words carefully for a reason, and I'm not real big on condoning or agreeing to participate in anything that could even REMOTELY be viewed by law enforcement as any kind of terrorist enterprise.

Used to be that my trust was something that was almost automatic, there to be lost; nowadays, it has to be EARNED, and it doesn't come easy or unconditionally. Once you start having political discussions and taking stances that aren't "career-friendly", you're going to start running into people who will absolutely start angling to walk you into a wall or off a cliff.

Like I said, color me paranoid, but I've had some real-world experiences which leave me room to be. As Frem says, it's always about the shoes. ;)

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Monday, September 28, 2009 8:42 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Bytemite:
Hehe, I bet I know who else DT suspects is Frem's sockpuppet. Not too many ways I can prove otherwise, though, we do agree on quite a number of things. It's almost not worth it for me to respond on the RWED, 'cause Frem's just going to come in better informed with links and references instead of my intuition and various if-then conclusions.

Quote:
Byte,

In addition to the moral issue there's the ZPG angle: Who is influencing the growth or lack there of in which population. This is where policy can be a special manipulative evil.

Well, I kind of consider that a moral issue in of itself. Abuse of power is kind of a no-no. But, it happens/ is happening.

Sorry about my previous post, it was not "tweet" sized.

I never would have suspected you of being Frem.
I've heard that I am 4 or 5 other people, but can't bother to keep track of who they are. One of them I consider a compliment. Is kingelbert chrisisall?

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Monday, September 28, 2009 8:58 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by dreamtrove:
JSF

I got kicked back to february. Our damn medical system is a menace, my public option is really an hmo.

I don't understand. If you are not being unresponsive, please rephrase.

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Tuesday, September 29, 2009 4:05 AM

Don't know. Haven't seen Chrisisall, been wondering what he's been up to.

I have my suspicions that King is a sockpuppet, but whoever he really is, they know how to push me the wrong way. The behaviour combined with the knowing isn't enough for me to be able to laugh about the antics.

In the past, I was concerned that the fighting in King's threads, and his later spammed insults were likely to be driving people away from the board, so I spam retaliated.

He toned it down, so I mostly leave him alone now, but it would be nice to figure out who he really is and know for sure.

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Tuesday, September 29, 2009 10:27 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Bytemite:
Don't know. Haven't seen Chrisisall, been wondering what he's been up to.

I have my suspicions that King is a sockpuppet, but whoever he really is, they know how to push me the wrong way. The behaviour combined with the knowing isn't enough for me to be able to laugh about the antics.

In the past, I was concerned that the fighting in King's threads, and his later spammed insults were likely to be driving people away from the board, so I spam retaliated.

He toned it down, so I mostly leave him alone now, but it would be nice to figure out who he really is and know for sure.

Did you intend the other thread?

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Wednesday, September 30, 2009 5:18 AM