REAL WORLD EVENT DISCUSSIONS

Nuclear waste disposal

POSTED BY: BYTEMITE
UPDATED: Sunday, December 25, 2022 12:43
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Thursday, September 24, 2009 5:40 AM

BYTEMITE


Sorry, more news from Utah. Nuclear power is a good thing, but disposal is a problem that most people who want new reactors won't ever see.

Fact is, if we want to use nuclear power, we have to think of a better method. Reactors that reuse the waste are a good start, though no one's building them, or updating the current reactors. But we also need to be concerned about storage.

http://www.sltrib.com/news/ci_13403650

"Whereas Nevada has gambling and Wyoming has fossil fuels to prop up state government, Utah could have radioactive waste, argued Oren Nelson, a founder of Nelson Brothers Construction."

Yaaaaaay.


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Thursday, September 24, 2009 8:37 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Brrrr...yeah, I always cringe when I see the cute advertisements and remarks about nuclear power. If it's built/maintained by humans, don't trust it--and the last thing we need to trust is a form of power that creates poisons which last centuries!

Then there's China, etc., which is planning to build how many of the damned things? We well may not have to wait for global warming to get us...

________________________
Together we are greater than the sum of our parts

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Thursday, September 24, 2009 9:08 AM

OUT2THEBLACK


Quote:

Originally posted by Niki2:
If it's built/maintained by humans, don't trust it--and the last thing we need to trust is a form of power that creates poisons which last centuries!




Especially if the thing built by humans is 'government'...

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Thursday, September 24, 2009 9:08 AM

DREAMTROVE


"The economic logic behind dumping a load of toxic waste in the lowest wage country is impeccable ... Under-populated countries in Africa are vastly underpolluted." - Larry Summers, Chief economic advisor to President Obama.

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Thursday, September 24, 2009 9:32 AM

BYTEMITE


Plus, people seem to view Africa as a desert, which for some reason, hey, makes it okay, even if people live there.

We can't have some place being "underpolluted," heaven forbid.

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Thursday, September 24, 2009 9:33 AM

WULFENSTAR

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg


I think I've said this before... but the one thing that the American government should be allowed to do is regulate the pollution of the environment, within our own borders of course.....

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Thursday, September 24, 2009 9:38 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


No, Black, your comparison doesn't hold up. I was speaking of "things". Government isn't a "thing". Things need building materials, builders, maintenance, etc. Government changes who is building, maintaining, etc., constantly. And it has to be screwed up REAL bad to harm vast numbers of people for centuries to come.

A nuclear plant depends on the materials being strong and trustworthy, which means trusting the builders and those providing the materials and plans. It has to be maintained...and if even something SMALL goes wrong, the results can be disasterous.

I will grant you that there are similiarities, but what can happen when humans fail to build/maintain government takes a long time to do anything LIKE the kind of harm something wrong with a nuclear plant can do in a very short time.

DT, yes, that's one REAL big black mark against Obama, I wish we could do something about Summers!
Quote:

the one thing that the American government should be allowed to do is regulate the pollution of the environment
Uhh, Wulf, it does--or it's supposed to anyway!

________________________
Together we are greater than the sum of our parts

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Thursday, September 24, 2009 9:40 AM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!


I've always thought the best thing to do was to concentrate it and lift it off the face of the earth - send it off to space.

Of course, we COULD accidentally be sending it to someone's back yard. Man, what a NIMBY mess THAT would make.

***************************************************************

Silence is consent.

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Thursday, September 24, 2009 9:43 AM

WULFENSTAR

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg


We COULD figure out a way to produce energy WITHOUT destroying the environment...

Solar energy? Why not?

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Thursday, September 24, 2009 9:45 AM

BYTEMITE


The main problem is, there's not much that can be done at this point except to watch the fireworks. Energy Solutions, the name of the company importing all this nuclear waste, who paid off the Nuclear Regulatory Commission redefine low level nuclear waste... The deal's already been made, despite the Northwest compact against such an importation of nuclear waste, we're already accepting it at their storage site. Now ES is trying to get a deal to import FOREIGN waste as well.

So all this talk about making rules and restrictions now is just a little too late, the waste is already here, it's not going to be moved. Let's just hope we don't have the big earthquake we've been waiting for in the next million years, because that's going to trash their storage facilities.

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Thursday, September 24, 2009 9:48 AM

BYTEMITE


Heck yeah, Wulf, solar energy is really something I can get behind. I also think that every building really ought to be built to be self-sufficient and generate their own power.

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Thursday, September 24, 2009 9:48 AM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!


I'm not for nuclear power BTW - the biggest reason has to do with nuclear waste. We still haven't fixed up Love Canal, and those are just common, burn-able chemicals. How does anyone expect we'll be able to manage our nuclear mess for the next 24,100^7 years ?

***************************************************************

ETA: But seeing as we ALREADY have nuclear waste and it might be good to fix the problem ...

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Thursday, September 24, 2009 9:50 AM

WULFENSTAR

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg


So why hasnt anyone been able to harness the power of the sun?

Seriously.

We have an unlimited source of energy above our heads... but noone has tapped it.

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Thursday, September 24, 2009 9:58 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


I'm all for solar, wind and geothermal. Dunno if I'll live long enough for America to HAVE to move away from fossil fuels, and until it does, I doubt much will happen. Hydroelectric has played havoc with our rivers and deltas, and don't even TALK to me about "clean coal"!

Wulf, one word: Money. It's expensive to install, tho' hopefully that will come down in time. We've got a lot of solar around here, but this is CA, of course...places where it's overcast a lot, like North of us, or where you get heavy Winters, I dunno if it's as viable.

America HAS got one of the biggest--can't remember the term, "wind areas" if you will, in the world which could be exploited...again: money. And NIMBY, as they found out on the East Coast.

I'd love to see some real movement in my lifetime, but I'm not holding my breath.

________________________
Together we are greater than the sum of our parts

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Thursday, September 24, 2009 10:01 AM

WULFENSTAR

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg


See?

Thats part of my mulit-directional *point*.

Why arn't we demanding this? Solar energy would free us from a lot of bills.

Your house would just need solar power to run, and you could also power your car too...

See Tesla Motors...

www.teslamotors.com


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Thursday, September 24, 2009 11:00 AM

BYTEMITE


Quote:

ETA: But seeing as we ALREADY have nuclear waste and it might be good to fix the problem ...


I'd prefer if we recycled the waste. There are fission reactors that can reuse waste produced by the current power plants and generate MORE electricity. My understand of this process is that the by-products decay faster and don't produce Radon gas, so are less dangerous to store over time.

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Thursday, September 24, 2009 11:23 AM

CHRISISALL


Quote:

Originally posted by rue:
I've always thought the best thing to do was to concentrate it and lift it off the face of the earth - send it off to space.


In atomic-powered vehicles, of course.




The laughing Chrisisall

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Thursday, September 24, 2009 12:14 PM

DREAMTROVE


Kathy,

Chris is right. The fuel cost of doing that would be likely higher than the energy gained in the first place, better to just skip the whole thing.


Niki,

That's a good idea, but only up to certain levels of power consumption. It's hard to run a submarine or spaceship on it.


Byte,

Yeah, I think the breed reactor works for most high-energy needs, there's also a nuclear thermonic generator the soviets designed, a few other options. Rather than target "nuclear" which is a very 50s term, we should target the overall output of any energy system in terms of by products.

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Thursday, September 24, 2009 1:11 PM

PIRATENEWS

John Lee, conspiracy therapist at Hollywood award-winner History Channel-mocked SNL-spoofed PirateNew.org wooHOO!!!!!!


Here in Knoxville Tennessee, the federal government just BURNS millions of pounds of nuclear waste every year. The leftover nuke waste is converted into kitchen utinsels.

Because, you know, burning or washing with dishsoap deactivates the radiation. And your government loves you...

And our local nuke power plants require an adjacent hydroelectric power plant or coal power plant before the nuke plant can turn on or operate, but they're great for make nuke bomb ingredients. When the hydro plant burned down and could not be extinguished (!), Watts Bar nuke power plant was shut down for a year.

Knoxville is world HQ for the mafia/mafiya cartel for garbage, scrap metal, medical waste, nuke waste, stolen cars (also used for car bombs in Iraq), "depleted" uranium recycling (in bullets, bombs and tanks to kill US troops), the local "Green" Party, and the $3-billion "demolition" contract at World Trade Center "after" the terror bombings on 9/11/2001.

Even SMG and BTVS held their Hellmouth reunion in Knoxville...



Quote:

"At the end of April, the Department of Energy will stop receiving waste at its Oak Ridge incinerator and proceed with plans to shut down the one-of-a-kind facility. The incinerator has burned more than 33 million pounds of waste over the past two decades, specializing in the treatment of so-called mixed wastes that contain radioactive elements, polychlorinated biphenyls and other hazardous chemicals. DOE plans to operate the facility through Sept. 30 to burn the remaining waste, agency spokesman Walter Perry said. "At this time, approximately 1.7 million pounds of waste on the burn plan remain to be incinerated," Perry said. The incinerator was built and tested during the 1980s at a cost of $26 million. Full-scale operations began in 1991. Bechtel Jacobs Co., DOE's environmental manager in Oak Ridge, currently operates the incinerator and will conduct the closure operations."
-Knoxville News Sentinel, "DOE closing Oak Ridge incinerator, Remaining waste to be burned at unique OR facility before closure," April 20, 2009

"Oak Ridge currently stores more low-level nuclear waste than any other DOE site in the nation. Oak Ridge facilities have more than 47,000 cubic yards of low-level waste in storage - roughly a third of DOE's total inventory nationwide. 26,937 cubic yards at East Tennessee Technology Park (formerly known as the K-25 site). 11,435 cubic yards at Oak Ridge National Laboratory. 8,907 cubic yards at the Y-12 nuclear weapons plant. Many of the containers are stored outdoors, exposed to the elements."
—Frank Munger, editor, Knoxville News-Sentinel, "DOE on mission to cut costs, clean up low-level nuclear waste", March 4, 2002

"The Oak Ridge plant remains an integral cog in the U.S. nuclear defense, producing new parts for existing weapons and recycling old warheads from retired systems. Y-12, of course, is a symbolic location for protests because the plant produced the enriched uranium used in the A-bomb dropped on Hiroshima, Japan, Aug. 6, 1945. Y-12 also serves as the nation's principal repository for bomb-grade uranium."
—Frank Munger, editor, Knoxville News-Sentinel, "Y-12 a cool place for protesters on a budget ", February 6, 2002

"Oak Ridge National Laboratory is a world campus, and the terrorist attacks of Sept. 11 and security-related fallout from those tragedies will not change that. ORNL confirmed that about 1,500 foreign nationals from 69 countries - Argentina to Zaire - currently are visiting the Oak Ridge lab. Thom Mason, the director of the Spallation Neutron Source, the biggest U.S. science project under construction, is not an American citizen. "I only got my green card in July,'' Mason said. More than 100 foreign nationals are full-time members of the scientific staff, and those numbers, of course, do not reflect the number of foreign-born scientists and engineers who have become naturalized U.S. citizens over the years. Recent statistics compiled by the Oak Ridge Institute for Science and Education show that 40 percent of the graduate degrees in nuclear engineering at U.S. institutions were awarded to foreign nationals. Similar stats are found across the sciences and math and computing."
—Frank Munger, editor, Knoxville News-Sentinel, "Oak Ridge lab is truly a global community", October 10, 2001

KNOX COUNTY, TN
Ranking in USA 1996 (latest data available for 2001)

diesel particulate matter 1 2 top 95% (HIGHEST RATING)
acetaldehyde (poisonous byproduct in metabolism of alcohol beverages) top 90%
acrolein top 90%
acrylonitrile top 75%
arsenic compunds top 50%
benzene top 90%
beryllium compounds top 75% (Oak Ridge top 95%)
1,3 butadiene top top 95%
cadmium compounds top 50% (Oak Ridge top 95%)
carbon tetrachloride top 90%
chloroform top 90% (Loudon County top 95%)
chromium compounds top 75% (Oak Ridge top 90%)
coke oven emissions below 25% (all of TN)
1,3 dichloropropene top 90%
ethlylene dibromide top 75% (Loudon County top 90%)
ethylene dichlroride top top 50% (Oak Ridge top 95%)
ethylene oxide top 90%
formaldehyde top 90%
hexachlorobenzene 25% to 50%
hydrazine (rocket fuel) top 75% (Cocke County top 95%)
lead top 50% (Oak Ridge top 90%)
manganese compounds top 75% (Roane County top 90%)
mercury compounds top 75% (Oak Ridge top 95%)
methylene chloride (triggers false positive in BAC DWI testing) top 75% (Roane County top 90%)
nickel compounds top 75% (Oak Ridge top 90%)
perchloroethylene top 90%
polychlorinated biphenyle (PCB) bottom 25% (all TN)
polycylic organic matter (PCM) top 75%
7-PAH top 50%
propilene dichloride top 75% (Loudon County top 95%)
quinolene top 75%
1,1,2,2 tetrachloroethane top 75% (Loudon County top 95%)
tichloroethylene top 90% (Loudon County top 95%)
vinyl chloride top 90% (Loudon County top 95%)
The Municipal Waste Combustors account for over 61 percent of the total dioxin emissions and almost 19 percent of the national man-made emissions of mercury. Hospital/Medical Infectious Waste Incinerators account for 11 percent of the total dioxin emissions and 10 percent of the national man-made emissions of mercury.

LOCKHEED MARTIN ENERGY SYS. U.S. DOE Y-12 PLANT
OAK RIDGE, TN
manufacturer -- release to air (1996)
hydrochloric acid = 138,595 lbs/yr
sulphuric acid = 53,283 lbs/yr
methanol = 30,525 lbs/yr
mercury = 140 lbs/yr
lead = 4,923 lbs/yr

www.geocities.com/knoxville_tn_epa



Quote:

INDEPENDENT INVESTIGATION OF THE EAST TENNESSEE TECHNOLOGY PARK

Office of Environment, Safety and Health, U.S. Department of Energy (2000)

Pollution above toxic levels surrounding Oak Ridge Nuclear Laboratory (ETTP)

PDF Report (200 pages)
www.defendingscience.org/upload/Portsmouth_vol1.pdf
www.archive.org/details/IndependentInvestigationOfTheEastTennesseeTech
nologyPark


http://tis.eh.doe.gov/oversight/reports/gdps/0010ettp/0010ettp.html (reclassified Top Secret)

HTML Report (200 pages reclassified Top Secret)
http://tis.eh.doe.gov/oversight/reports/gdps/0010ettp/index.html

Highlights Verbatum from the declassified portion of the Report:

"Conservative estimates indicated that 35,000 pounds of uranium were released into the air from all sources. 4,300 pounds of uranium a month was unaccounted for or released to the environment. ETTP operates an incinerator which handles radioactive, hazardous and uranium-contaminated PCB wastes. ETTP generated transuranic elements (isotopes with atomic numbers greater than uranium) such as neptunium-237 and plutonium-239; fission products such as techneitum-99; PCBs; toxic metals; and volatile organic compunds such as trichloroethene (TCE) and present risk to the public. Some contaminants migrated outside the Plant boundary. Waste disposal practices included direct discharge of radioactive materials, toxics and caustics to holding ponds and storm drains, and incineration and burial. Reports reflected a number of spills of nitric and hydrochloric acids, in one case 200 gallons. Numerous large fires and explosions were reported. It is impossible to characterize exposure because of inadequate surveys and incomplete records. Records indicate that as contamination levels increased, exposure controls were reduced. Contamination above limits was commonly detected. Operations have released a variety of contaminants into the environment, such as burial of low-level and hazardous waste in landfills and dumping directly into the Clinch River. Large amounts of contaminated equipment and scrap material were sold at public auction. Tens of thousands of pounds of flourine and hydrogen flouride were emitted annually. The investigation team identified over 600 releases of uranium hexaflouride, and a large, visible cloud was released outside a building. Exposure to 'intense clouds' of uranium powder dusts was prevalent and resulted in intense beta radiation fields. Each month dozens or workers were identified as having exposures exceeding plant control guides. Extensive contamination was prevalent. Recordsindicate many air samples in excess of Plant Allowable Limits. Both chemical and radiological materials have routinely been discharged from the Plant, from both sanitary sewage and storm water systems and materials were directly discharged in Mitchell Branch and Poplar Creek. One million pounds of blowdown water was discharged a day. The hexavalent chromium concentration in Poplar Creek is equal to the level regulated by the site's permit. Contents of 500 uranium hexafloride and other gas cylinders were emptied into the unlined holding pond by shooting the cylinders with high-powered rifles, and this pond discharged into Poplar Creek. Records confirm that radiation exceeded drinking water standards. Over 80,000 drums of pond sludge with low concentrations of uranium were generated in 1988. Ventilation was modified to discharge mercury fumes above the roof. Elevated levels of mercury were found in urinalyses. Records refer to the recovery of tons of mercury. Traps would blow out spilling mercury on the floor. Air sampling in the 1990s identified mercury levels several times the Threshold Limit Value. Continual and volumnous process leaks (blowoffs) were vented to the atmosphere. 4,300 pounds of uranium hexaflouride were released per month. Losses were excessive. 10,000 union grievances were filed and management disputed grievances concerning safety in favor of economic considerations. Many storm drains were not moitored before 1992, and routine and accidental wastes have adversely impacted the environment and the aquatic habitat. Weaknesses in the sampling and monitoring of air pollutant emissions raise concerns regarding the accuracy of public dose and exposure calculations. Environmental radiological protection and surveillance are not compliant with DOE Order. Few records reflect involvement by the Atomic Energy Commission in investigations of serious events. Levels of airborne radioactivity were as high as 35,800 dpm/ft3, and far exceeded the PAL of 2 dpm/ft3. [That's radiation levels over 17,000 times the maximum limit.] Airborne radioactivity far in excess of normal background levels was measured off-site as far as five miles away. A number of criticality and sub-criticality accident experiments were performed and posed a severe radiation hazard. Bladder cancer rates were seven times higher than for the general population, and stomach ulcers were 6.5 times greater. Inhalation of airborn radiation can increase the risk of future cancer." [verbatum from the Report]

"A recent decision in a federal lawsuit will result in the continued recycling of thousands of tons of radioactive metal for use in household products. Because of a loophole in the Superfund cleanup law, a federal judge said she could not order the Department of Energy (DOE) to stop the practice by which nuclear materials are recycled and used in everyday consumer products. The nuclear industry, in cooperation with the federal government, has been attempting to "deregulate" radioactive metals from weapon facilities and decommissioned nuclear power plants since the 1970s. Public Citizen and other citizens' organizations have successfully prevented this practice prior to the ruling. In a June 29 decision, U.S. District Judge Gladys Kessler used strong language about the danger this recycling poses to the public, but said she could not order the DOE to write an Environmental Impact Statement (EIS), thanks to a Superfund loophole. The judge described as "startling and worrisome" the absence of opportunity for "public scrutiny or input on a matter of such grave importance ... the potential for environmental harm is great, especially given the unprecedented amount of hazardous materials which the Defendants seek to recycle." The result: 100,000 tons of radioactive metals to be sold as scrap metal for use in items ranging from frying pans to baby carriages, said Wenonah Hauter, director of Public Citizen's Critical Mass Energy Project."
-Citizen.org, "Ruling Allows Radioactive Metal in Household Products"



Kitchen Essentials
http://business.shop.ebay.com/Radiation-Testers-/58289/i.html?_mspp=&_
pcats=4676%2C92074%2C12576


"High-level nuclear waste will be hazardous for more than 200,000 years."
-Ralph Nader

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Thursday, September 24, 2009 4:27 PM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important


Quote:

Originally posted by Wulfenstar:
So why hasnt anyone been able to harness the power of the sun?

Seriously.

We have an unlimited source of energy above our heads... but noone has tapped it.



Hello Wulf,

You may be interested in a book by Heinlein called "Friday." The book is about a courier and her misadventures, but like all Heinlein novels, it touches on technology and society.

In the book, it is quite aptly pointed out by the author that there is no shortage of energy on the Earth (or outside of it.) The problem is storage. We still don't have a way to efficiently store energy. Else we could capture a few bolts of lightning and be good as gold.

The technology of energy storage is the primary one that needs to be pursued in order to make a cleaner world.

I am not exactly a fan of nuclear waste myself, but of all the polluting forms of energy generation, nuclear power is the least damaging to the environment.

Finally, I'd like to say (in response to a comment above) that a government is a thing just like anything humans have built or invented. I think it's healthy to view all human inventions with a skeptical eye. That doesn't mean we should abandon our inventions, but we should certainly monitor them closely and make improvements and deletions as needed.

--Anthony



"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner

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Thursday, September 24, 2009 5:01 PM

BYTEMITE


Hmm, I really think solar panels for everyone would be more than sufficient to meet most people's energy needs. We do have storage for this kind of thing, and we're always developing better capacitors.

Granted, there's always going to be problems with entropy, and you can never fully recover 100% of what you store, but you CAN design a house and a building to not only produce it's own energy, but annually tend to produce an excess. People then sell the extra energy back to the national grid.

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Thursday, September 24, 2009 5:04 PM

BYTEMITE


Holy crap, PN.

I hear horror stories about plenty of stuff, like gold mine smelting disperses tons of mercury into the air, pretty much gets everywhere. The percentages don't really mean much to me, not without the comparison, but the POUNDAGE being pumped into the air... I really don't have much room to complain, do I?

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Thursday, September 24, 2009 5:12 PM

DREAMTROVE


Nuclear power is capable of delivering very high potency over a short period of time in kinetic motion, something which I don't want to see an international ban on. Nuclear weapons are useless and destructive. Nuclear waste is toxic, esp. from "powder reactors" and fall out.

But the term "Nuclear" applies to a whole field of science, and we should be careful before banning fields of technology.

Here's some things that would be a good idea to agree to dismantle and keep out of circulation:

1. Nuclear material with the A-bomb level of critical mass.

2. Powder reactors, or any industrial process that produces high level toxic byproducts. (a lot of things produce technically toxic byproducts that are less toxic than clorox, good for propaganda, but not that dangerous.)

3. Newer technologies of mass destruction, such as the implosion device. Not a lot of light has been shed for reasons I don't understand on this recent russian invention, but it supposedly is so destructive that it makes atomic weapons obsolete.

I think the ways to do this are the same as international agreements are usually done, by mutual consent and pressure, not by some overarching authority. That authority would be corrupted and would give such weapons only to itself and ban them for everyone else.

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Sunday, December 25, 2022 12:43 PM

JAYNEZTOWN


Cops detail Sam Brinton's furtive airport behavior when they lifted a woman's suitcase

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-11533855/Cops-Sam-Brintons-fu
rtive-airport-behavior-lifted-womans-suitcase.html


old news item

Man caught driving stolen car filled with radioactive uranium, rattlesnake, whiskey, Guthrie police say

https://www.koco.com/article/man-caught-driving-stolen-car-filled-with
-radioactive-uranium-rattlesnake-whiskey-guthrie-police-say/28366458

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