If we spent some of the magical Bail-Out money feeding the hungry peeps of the planet, would making a better world buy us any street cred? by chrisisall

Would America still be "The Evil Infidels" & such?
Would not everyone love us? Would not oil prices come down?
Or is there some REASON to keep the third world in it's place? To keep black babies weak?

Take this where you will...

The laughing Chrisisall

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Wednesday, September 30, 2009 12:32 PM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

You SHOULD know better Chris,IsAll.

It's the 'given a man a fish and he'll survive for the night, and don't give a man a fish and social Darwinism will take it's course' saw conservatives keep harping on.

Why SHOULD you give poor people ANYTHING, after all ? It'll just make more of them, like vermin.

^
^
^
^
^
bitter sarcasm

***************************************************************

Silence is consent.

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Wednesday, September 30, 2009 12:40 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

No.

The money that we would give away was just robbed from poorer folks anyway. Maybe if we withdrew our troops from the 800 installations around the world, signed out of the WTO until it included and enforced worker protections and benefits for operating transparent democracies, stopped the IMF from enforcing the Chicago School of Economics, and brought capitalism to heel... then we might have some street cred.

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Wednesday, September 30, 2009 12:52 PM

Signy, were I unwed, I would take you in a manly fashion.

That's my way of saying you rock.

The laughing Chrisisall

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Wednesday, September 30, 2009 12:57 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by rue:
bitter sarcasm

Duely noted.

The laughing Chrisisall

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Wednesday, September 30, 2009 1:01 PM

the west would lose control, and we would have a much different world.

as Signy said, capitalism has to be brought to heel,

as does organized religion, power hungry leaders full of themselves, and anyone else who cannot respect the rights of people just to be left to be.

" I don't believe in hypothetical situations - it's kinda like lying to your brain "

" They don't hate America, they hate Americans " Homer Simpson

Lets party like its 1939

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Wednesday, September 30, 2009 1:14 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

CHRIS...

Oh... my!

*flutters*

How romantic!

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Wednesday, September 30, 2009 1:16 PM

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg

Heheheheh

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Wednesday, September 30, 2009 1:23 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Better 'n some gun nut jacking off with a firearm.

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Wednesday, September 30, 2009 1:35 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Wulfenstar:
Heheheheh

Wulf, I often stand up for you, dude. Now is not one of those times.
GFY. In a comfortable way, of course.

The laughing Chrisisall

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Wednesday, September 30, 2009 1:55 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Wulfenstar:

Heheheheh

you got me wrong Wulf

not a hippie, hippies wouldn't advocate violence.

that said, why do you think people all over the world hate and want Americans dead anyway.

you keep going the way you are, someones gonna burn your country down, and be justified in doing it... I'm only sad for the folk who don't get off using people and don't deserve it.

the rest... well

" I don't believe in hypothetical situations - it's kinda like lying to your brain "

" They don't hate America, they hate Americans " Homer Simpson

Lets party like its 1939

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Wednesday, September 30, 2009 2:01 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by GinoBiffaroni:
I'm only sad for the folk who don't get off using people and don't deserve it.

Thanks, Gino, but I don't want your sadness.

How about a little room in your home...?

The laughing Chrisisall

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Wednesday, September 30, 2009 2:36 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
Better 'n some gun nut jacking off with a firearm.

That visual is... disturbing. And powderburn-y.

The laughing Chrisisall

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Wednesday, September 30, 2009 2:50 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
Quote:
Originally posted by GinoBiffaroni:
I'm only sad for the folk who don't get off using people and don't deserve it.

Thanks, Gino, but I don't want your sadness.

How about a little room in your home...?

The laughing Chrisisall

strange enough I am finishing the basement as we speak... lol

" I don't believe in hypothetical situations - it's kinda like lying to your brain "

" They don't hate America, they hate Americans " Homer Simpson

Lets party like its 1939

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Wednesday, September 30, 2009 3:07 PM

FREMDFIRMA

Siggy stole a chunka my thunder here cause yeah, it is like a "tax refund" - kind of an insult to take from someone, gnaw the take down to the bone, and then act like throwing it back is some kinda benevolence when not takin from em in the first place woulda been the right thing to do.

But then, there's always a "right thing to do", and on a rare and priceless occasion, it's even legal.

Lemme share with you a quote from somewhere I don't remember that's stuck with me for decades.

"Though silver in your palm weighs light,
Compared to death by fire and sword,
Do not shy the hopeless fight,
Endeavour is it's own reward."

Doin right is kinda like that, it matters not if you are hated for it, bitterly cussed and snarked at for it, even hunted with intent on your destruction for it - It's STILL Right you understand ?

I've caught hell a time even from my own, vicious that I can be, for showing mercy to folks who 'deserved' not a drop of it, soley on seeing SOME spark of humanity within them, however faint.

Really, the folk I have pulled out of their own personal hells, do you think all of em have fond thoughts of me, especially given both my brutality, especially in the early days, and my honesty when they would have very much preferred otherwise ?

Consider how most folk feel about physical therapists (sadistic bastards, ha!) despite the obvious fact that they mean to, and often do, help people ?

So street cred or no cred, we still oughta do it.

-Frem

It cannot be said enough, those who do not learn from history, are doomed to endlessly repeat it

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Wednesday, September 30, 2009 3:23 PM

PIZMOBEACH

... fully loaded, safety off...

"If we spent some of the magical Bail-Out money feeding the hungry peeps of the planet, would making a better world buy us any street cred?"

Figures - you wanna BUY street cred... tsk tsk... money's always the answer with you Americans!

Scifi movie music + Firefly dialogue clips, 24 hours a day - http://www.scifiradio.com Now available on your iPhone

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Wednesday, September 30, 2009 3:28 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by pizmobeach:

Figures - you wanna BUY street cred... tsk tsk... money's always the answer with you Americans!

Eff U Pizmo, I was talkin' about doin' the RIGHT thing (see Frem's post above) because it's something that would REALLY make a better world.
Oh wait. You were being sarcastic- okay, I can get behind that.

The laughing Chrisisall

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Wednesday, September 30, 2009 3:33 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)

Chris, how are you and your ghost both signed in at the same time?

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Wednesday, September 30, 2009 4:37 PM

GEEZER

Keep the Shiny side up

If only it were that easy. In lots of the places the hungry peeps are, we'd have to also put in troops to make sure the magical Bail-Out money ended up feeding those hungry peeps instead of ending up in the Swiss bank accounts of various government officials of those countries. Putting troops in might get folks fed for a change, but they would then be deafened by the screams about American Imperialism, so it's looking kind'a no-win.

Some would also say that food aid is not the right approach, but that the agriculture sector of these countries full of hungry peeps should be developed so they don't have to rely on our aid. of course, the same problem with the government officials of those countries skimming the development money obtains.

That being said, the U.S. did provide 49% of world food donations in 2006, the last cite I could quickly find. http://www.un.org/apps/news/story.asp?NewsID=19253&Cr=China&Cr1=

More recently, the U.S. provided almost half the global contributions to the Word Food Programme for 2009. http://www.wfp.org/about/donors/wfp-donors/2009

Darn us for greedy capitalist pigs.

"Keep the Shiny side up"

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Wednesday, September 30, 2009 4:39 PM

DREAMTROVE

Teach a man to fish.

Money spend on gmo foods research and food irradiation and transportation, followed with restructuring third world agriculture to reduce vulnerability to political situations, weather, and be less environmentally destructive, and you solve the problem.

The fact of the matter is, most starving populations are not the "third world" but people who are under siege. It's our smarmy proxy armies that are creating the situation. Yes, we should, as a stop gap measure, but we must end those conflicts that are creating the shortage. Then, we must devote our energies to increasing the food output per acre.

For every human, there are three tons of termites. That's an entire earth's population of termites per human. What are they living on? Our excess food supply because of the inefficiency of our farming.

Or we could take the world population of mice, and divide them per human. Were you to get in an SUV with your portion of the world's mice, the entire vehicle would be filled with mice except for that filled by you. Why? Because mice are relatively efficient in their lifestyle, hunter gatherers though they are.

Biofuels need to be kicked in the but, along with anything else that's not wild and is wasting farmland, and we need real production. We're working well under 1% of capacity here. Irradiation is a good answer too: It's cheap, it's effective, and leaves no toxic side effects, unlike pesticides and preservatives. If these techniques could increase our food per acre 100 fold or more, they could do the same for Africa and Asia, and then they wouldn't need a hand out from the US.

No, I'm sorry, I can't care anymore about the US economy, that's like trying to bail out the Titanic. But I do know this:

If the US is the food supplier to Africa, that puts the US in the political position to tell Africa what to do for the rest of eternity. Think about it.

Teach a man to fish.

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Wednesday, September 30, 2009 4:46 PM

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg

Just as a quick question... and a reminder.

How many of our own people, (Americans) are going to bed hungry tonight?

Just out of curiosity... shouldnt we be taking care of our own FIRST before we try and save the rest?

You don't rush to put out a fire at your neighbors house, when your own is going up in flames.

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Wednesday, September 30, 2009 5:07 PM

FREMDFIRMA

You hunt, Wulf ?

I don't, but till I couldn't physically keep up no more I used to spot game and take bag limit with me, and you know what me and Mick T did with it, well, most of it ?

Fed the local poor, and be damned to the regs - thankfully the local game warden was cool with it though, that coulda been a problem.

Game overpopulation and hunger, solved, and in a way that I don't think would be offensive to you at all, now would it ?

Just some thoughts.

-F

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Wednesday, September 30, 2009 5:56 PM

Freedom is Important because People are Important

Please stop the aid?

http://www.spiegel.de/international/spiegel/0,1518,363663,00.html

Hello,

I could not help but feel that this interviewee made some poignant points.

--Anthony

"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner

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Wednesday, September 30, 2009 6:06 PM

DREAMTROVE

Frem,

Problem Crisis Solution or whatever you called it. Doesn't it occur as a classic globalist setup up?

Create a famine, then step in with food, be the savior, lifeline, and ultimate controller of policy.

People need food independence.

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Wednesday, September 30, 2009 6:23 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by AnthonyT:
Please stop the aid?

http://www.spiegel.de/international/spiegel/0,1518,363663,00.html

Hello,

I could not help but feel that this interviewee made some poignant points.

--Anthony

"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner

How aid is brought in is always a question,

I seen on TV a program to provide Mosquito Nets in Africa.

Instead of having nets made in here or Europe, the donors had the nets made in Kenya, then distributed across Africa using local freight, and sold at cost to vendors in the country's that needed them at cost, allowing that vendor to add a small profit margin ( part of the arrangement )

So the end result was affordable Mosquito nets in the marketplace, and employment for a bunch of people. The donors set it all up, got it running, and walked away giving the business over to the Kenyans working there.

Bit more of a result than just giving away Mosy nets

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Wednesday, September 30, 2009 6:35 PM

Freedom is Important because People are Important

Hello Gino,

That is a far better system. Head and shoulders better than what is usually done.

Of course, it does have one flaw. It puts a lot of people into a non-sustainable business.

Personally, I think a combination of cessation of aid, and extremely low-interest micro-loans to individuals and small businesses is the way to go.

That way the locals can decide what's in demand and go into business meeting that demand, rather than making a 'phantom product' that no one will be able to afford once the aid dies out.

--Anthony

"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner

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Wednesday, September 30, 2009 6:58 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by AnthonyT:
Hello Gino,

That is a far better system. Head and shoulders better than what is usually done.

Of course, it does have one flaw. It puts a lot of people into a non-sustainable business.

Personally, I think a combination of cessation of aid, and extremely low-interest micro-loans to individuals and small businesses is the way to go.

That way the locals can decide what's in demand and go into business meeting that demand, rather than making a 'phantom product' that no one will be able to afford once the aid dies out.

--Anthony

"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner

Mosquito nets are definitely NOT a phantom product in Africa

http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/story/CTVNews/20071219/malaria_n
ets_071219?s_name=&no_ads=

the trick is to shift from sending in mass produced ones, to ones of local manufacture.

Of course the cost of these cannot compete with mass production, so of course if enough nets are sent in as aid this won't work, on the other hand there has never been enough of this in Africa to protect ALL the population, so if the costs are kept affordable, someone will still buy them.

micro-loans are fine, if you can find people who have the background and talents to start up companys from scratch...

I suspect that is far less than what would be necessary in many areas.

" I don't believe in hypothetical situations - it's kinda like lying to your brain "

" They don't hate America, they hate Americans " Homer Simpson

Lets party like its 1939

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Wednesday, September 30, 2009 7:10 PM

PIRATECAT

Ok now I work 12 an half hour shifts with about 1 hour drive each way due to road construction. Sitting in a company suck meeting listening to the fast track to nowhere community tech flunkies known as Human Resources. On there weekends there out there with there company shirts painting crack houses and picken up needles. Hoo Ray for them. There not doing good but just making themselves feel good. Ok now when they lose paperwork they want me to stay over till they get in to fix there shit. Even though they only work 8 hour days with fridays half a day. Am I missing something. Charity begins at home. Ok first take care of your own people not everybody else. Don't worry about the poe black child worry about your own white chillden. Then go save the world. When people understand that the world is ancient and ruthless. Life is cheap over there. It's not that there backwards it's that were forward. America is a fragile experiment. I know Kansas can feed the world. But those people can't help themselves. I do not believe in the Peace Corp or Catholic Charities. Get rid of the dogma and tyrants then you can move forward. If starving with aids what are you doing trying to get laid and that is Africa.

"Battle of Serenity, Mal. Besides Zoe here, how many-" "I'm talkin at you! How many men in your platoon came out of their alive".

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Wednesday, September 30, 2009 7:13 PM

Freedom is Important because People are Important

Hello Gino,

By 'phantom product' I mean a product that the people can't buy without the carefully orchestrated assistance.

In other words, if you are selling anything at cost to anyone along the way, you are creating a phantom market. As soon as people can no longer get things 'at cost' then the profit margin either vaporizes or the prices are increased to put the product out of reach. The buyers of the inexpensive net can't afford the profitable net, and so the market dries up. Not because people don't want the product, but because people can no longer afford it.

If people could afford it, and were willing to pay for it, there would be no need to set up the aid to begin with.

An alternative might be providing the local manufacturers in Africa with the technology to produce these things much more cheaply than they can do it now. This accomplishes the same job as selling 'at cost' by reducing expenses, but creates a sustainable venture because everyone is making money and able to afford the end product.

--Anthony

"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner

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Wednesday, September 30, 2009 7:27 PM

SOCKPUPPET

Whole world hunger situation plain stinks dontcha think? Corporate greed makes bailouts so gets bailouts. Feed the poor with food Americans waste all the time. Heck, just make it shiny sugar for Haliburton, right? Find out who Barry's "handouts" go to and work them into the picture. Fuck politics. People need a food handout? Give them food.

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Wednesday, September 30, 2009 7:36 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by AnthonyT:
Hello Gino,

By 'phantom product' I mean a product that the people can't buy without the carefully orchestrated assistance.

In other words, if you are selling anything at cost to anyone along the way, you are creating a phantom market. As soon as people can no longer get things 'at cost' then the profit margin either vaporizes or the prices are increased to put the product out of reach. The buyers of the inexpensive net can't afford the profitable net, and so the market dries up. Not because people don't want the product, but because people can no longer afford it.

If people could afford it, and were willing to pay for it, there would be no need to set up the aid to begin with.

An alternative might be providing the local manufacturers in Africa with the technology to produce these things much more cheaply than they can do it now. This accomplishes the same job as selling 'at cost' by reducing expenses, but creates a sustainable venture because everyone is making money and able to afford the end product.

--Anthony

"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner

but this requires an infrastructure base ( power, sewer, etc), technical support ( which in most case they still need in bring in from abroad ) a larger capital investment...

the leap from pre industrial revolution to modern manufacturing is large, plus in the long run you would likely make alot more nets with alot less employees, thus ruining part of the scheme before you got off the ground.

plus mass produced nets are usually nylon, so you would either have to import nylon and eat the additional costs ( and no jobs to the local cotton industry ) or build a nylon industry as well...

you have to walk before you run, and the biggest part of the scheme is to generate local jobs with minimum investment, maximum entry level employees, etc, etc.

Even if you set it up so that the many charity efforts to provide nets buys into this system of distribution to keep the costs down, it would still be more productive than trying to hand a net to every person on the continent.

" I don't believe in hypothetical situations - it's kinda like lying to your brain "

" They don't hate America, they hate Americans " Homer Simpson

Lets party like its 1939

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Wednesday, September 30, 2009 7:42 PM

Freedom is Important because People are Important

Hello Gino,

No doubt at all that it's a better way. But it's just not sustainable in the absence of the aid.

Still, if I had to choose how to give my money away, I like it better than what usually goes on.

--Anthony

"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner

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Wednesday, September 30, 2009 7:54 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by AnthonyT:
Hello Gino,

No doubt at all that it's a better way. But it's just not sustainable in the absence of the aid.

Still, if I had to choose how to give my money away, I like it better than what usually goes on.

--Anthony

"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner

lol sorry to poke so many holes, probably has something to do with my job, Everytime I get into planning I get a little cynical trying to get ahead of the curve of problems.

Your article did illustrate the problems aid can cause, but lack of infrastructure, training, education, etc plus that most of Africas exports are raw unprocessed resources makes for an uphill battle to turn things around. No place for a middle class to develop.

South Africa has the best infrastructure, Kenya used to have the stability, resources everywhere, just sad.

Mind you besides the aid problem, all the dumping of toxic and radioactive waste from Europe to Africa is crazy.

Oh well, enough rambling tonight

" I don't believe in hypothetical situations - it's kinda like lying to your brain "

" They don't hate America, they hate Americans " Homer Simpson

Lets party like its 1939

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Wednesday, September 30, 2009 7:59 PM

Freedom is Important because People are Important

"but this requires an infrastructure base ( power, sewer, etc), technical support ( which in most case they still need in bring in from abroad ) a larger capital investment..."

Hello,

A second comment on this- This is the 'teaching people to fish' thing that folks often talk about. We did it in Japan, if I remember.

Picking one area and setting up all this infrastructure would create many more jobs than the singular mosquito net manufacturing component. I understand that aid to Africa is measurable in the Billions (with a B.)

We could pick a new country every year, probably based on merits of governance (minimum standards of human rights) and set up the infrastructure for dozens of new industries to join the 21st century.

Then people could build their own nets, and afford them, too. Aid to the area stops, but improved conditions live on.

--Anthony

"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner

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Wednesday, September 30, 2009 8:17 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by AnthonyT:
"but this requires an infrastructure base ( power, sewer, etc), technical support ( which in most case they still need in bring in from abroad ) a larger capital investment..."

Hello,

A second comment on this- This is the 'teaching people to fish' thing that folks often talk about. We did it in Japan, if I remember.

Picking one area and setting up all this infrastructure would create many more jobs than the singular mosquito net manufacturing component. I understand that aid to Africa is measurable in the Billions (with a B.)

We could pick a new country every year, probably based on merits of governance (minimum standards of human rights) and set up the infrastructure for dozens of new industries to join the 21st century.

Then people could build their own nets, and afford them, too. Aid to the area stops, but improved conditions live on.

--Anthony

"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner

In the case of Japan that infrastructure was REbuilt

remember all the warships, aircraft, etc they had for years before WW2.. factorys, even a nuclear program. Remember the war began when the US threatened to blockade them from their sources of raw resources in effect ruining their economy.

In addition the level of education and training of the Japanese people was equal to the challenge because it had been built up for decades before the war.

Your " merits of governance " comment, while well intended, opens things up for manipulation and abuse from the politicians who lie in wait to muck things like this up.

It would likely take ten years ( with alot of luck ) to set up something self sustaining from scratch.

" I don't believe in hypothetical situations - it's kinda like lying to your brain "

" They don't hate America, they hate Americans " Homer Simpson

Lets party like its 1939

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Thursday, October 1, 2009 1:14 AM

Freedom is Important because People are Important

Hello,

All right, Gino, you've got a deal.

In my lifetime, we could've set up 3 and a half self sustaining infrastructures in Africa.

Instead, we've got fekk all.

I know where I'd prefer to put my tax dollars.

--Anthony

"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner

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Thursday, October 1, 2009 2:29 AM

JONGSSTRAW

Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
Would America still be "The Evil Infidels" & such?
Would not everyone love us? Would not oil prices come down?
Or is there some REASON to keep the third world in it's place? To keep black babies weak?

Take this where you will...

The laughing Chrisisall

I think there's merit in what you ask here, but doesn't the USA already do that? Are we not the most charitable country on Earth? Do we not give away billions of tax dollars for foreign aid all over the world, year after year, decade after decade? Whenever there's a natural disaster in the world, who's the first on the scene with human and monetary aid...America, right? Even in countries we are at odds with, like when the USA sent aid to Iran a couple of years ago to help them recover from the Qom earthquake. Whether it's tsunami relief, or even religious-based Christian organizations all over the 3rd world, we are there, and we do more than all others combined. The poor in America do not pay income taxes, and can get Welfare or other Federal assistance when needed. Why is there this constant image portayed out there by some that America doesn't do enough? And if we did more, even a lot more, do you honestly think it would matter one hoot to the Islamic jihadist mullahs and their terrorist murderer followers out there? Would it matter another hoot to the Europeans? Their self-interest needs for oil, combined witht their look-down-their-nose attitude towards America, have seen them either allied with dictators and thugs, or as roadblocks to America's security goals. Maybe I'm tad jaded, but it seems to me we're damned if we do & damned if we don't.

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Thursday, October 1, 2009 2:38 AM

GEEZER

Keep the Shiny side up

Quote:
Originally posted by dreamtrove:
Money spend on gmo foods research and food irradiation and transportation, followed with restructuring third world agriculture to reduce vulnerability to political situations, weather, and be less environmentally destructive, and you solve the problem.

Hate to sound pessimistic, but you got several problems lurking just in this one sentence. There's lots of opposition in developed countries to GMO food and irradition, and it's likely that the same fears about it would spread to needy countries with even less supposed scientific education. The infrastructure for transportation in third world countries relies on their governments, which are usually interested in lining their own pockets rather than providing services to the people. These same governments like their people to be vulnerable to famine so they can use hunger as a political tool, distributing food to their supporters and letting the opposition starve, a la Zimbabwe, so reducing vulnerability isn't in their game plan.

Quote:
...but we must end those conflicts that are creating the shortage.

Not sure which "we" you mean. The U.S. can't do it without being called Imperialist, and probably isn't interested in putting any more "nation building" on the plate at this time anyway. The U.N. doesn't have the will. Regional groups generally want to keep the status quo.

Quote:
For every human, there are three tons of termites.

Some folk find termites tasty.

But, yeah, the problem isn't growing the food - there are grain surpluses in North America and Europe most years, and many of the starving countries could grow as much if allowed to develop their agriculture - but in causing the governments of the starving countries to get over their kleptocracies and tribal squabbles and allow change to happen. Absent strong external force, I don't see that happening.

"Keep the Shiny side up"

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Thursday, October 1, 2009 2:51 AM

DREAMTROVE

1. I disagree. Objection to these technologies in this country is a luxury. people worry about gay marriage more when no one is bombing them

2. Sure these conflicts are local, but they are being backed and supplied by first world powers with an agenda, usually to own the local mineral rights.

3. Govt. food distribution programs gain power because of the local lack of food. If an african community could sustain itself long term, ie while not damaging its environment, then it wouldn't need the govt. to give it food. This would help undermine the power of local corrupt regimes, and could be done without fighting those regimes.

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Thursday, October 1, 2009 3:20 AM

GEEZER

Keep the Shiny side up

Quote:
Originally posted by dreamtrove:
1. I disagree. Objection to these technologies in this country is a luxury. people worry about gay marriage more when no one is bombing them

There are hungry folks in parts of the EU, despite local surpluses, and the EU bans most GM food. The same EU politicians who did this would oppose distributing GM foods to the third world; both to be consistant with the EU ban and to avoid having to ban imports if the third world countries ever produced enough to export. If I were going to look for better crops for third world countries, I'd probably look at the hybrids developed over the last 30 years, which have a lot less opposition.

Quote:
2. Sure these conflicts are local, but they are being backed and supplied by first world powers with an agenda, usually to own the local mineral rights.

In some cases. In many, though, it's just the local governments, tribes, religions, etc.

Quote:
3. Govt. food distribution programs gain power because of the local lack of food. If an african community could sustain itself long term, ie while not damaging its environment, then it wouldn't need the govt. to give it food. This would help undermine the power of local corrupt regimes, and could be done without fighting those regimes.

But to set up sustainable farming in those regions, you need support. The support has to be funneled through the government, because the government says so. You try to go around the government, your organization gets kicked out of the country and your assets in-country go to - surprise - the government.

Consider Zimbabwe, formerly the "Breadbasket of Africa". They were feeding their people and exporting food. The government started seizing the large, efficient, farms and supposedly distributing them to the people. Of course, in this case 'the people' meant government officials. Madame Mugabe now owns six farms. Absent folks who knew how to farm, the agriculture industry failed in a big way and now several million Zimbabweans depend on foreign food donations which are largely distributed by Pres. Mugabe's political party.

"Keep the Shiny side up"

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Thursday, October 1, 2009 8:35 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Jongsstraw:
Maybe I'm tad jaded

I would accept that as an axiom.

Yeah, to some out there nothing we do or don't do matters regarding their hatred of us, but I expect they are in the minority.

The laughing Chrisisall

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Thursday, October 1, 2009 8:38 AM

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg

So lets do nothing.

Take the money we would have sent to these countries, and spend it on our own people....

WOW!

Instead of funding some warlord over there... we could fix a lot of stuff here!!

(Crickets chirping)

Yeah. Crazy idea.

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Thursday, October 1, 2009 8:53 AM

Freedom is Important because People are Important

Hello Wulf,

Actually, that is a valid and fair point of view. You won't find me chastising you for it.

--Anthony

"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner

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Thursday, October 1, 2009 8:57 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Wulfenstar:

Instead of funding some warlord over there... we could fix a lot of stuff here!!

(Crickets chirping)

Yeah. Crazy idea.

Silly silly British man. Without well-funded warloards, internationl conflict itself would be impossible.

The laughing Chrisisall

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Thursday, October 1, 2009 9:01 AM

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg

"Actually, that is a valid and fair point of view. You won't find me chastising you for it."

Too bad. I should have learned that "HOW you say things is as important as WHAT you say" before.

Could have made more headway here.

ETA: And you damn well know Im not British.

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Thursday, October 1, 2009 1:43 PM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

BTW Chris,IsAll

I just wanted to splain' a little. You may have noticed that the context of every defense of capitalism is: well, if they weren't motivated by starvation they wouldn't work (for us).

That's what it comes down to, sick as it is. Given that, why would ANYONE want to waste money on the poor ? It would cause the global economy to collapse. B/c while greed and the nostril-flaring spirit of COMpeTItion is sufficient motivation for the capitalist, only starvation is powerful enough for the worker. Take that away, and then where would we be ?

***************************************************************

Silence is consent.

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Thursday, October 1, 2009 2:27 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Wulfenstar:
So lets do nothing.

Take the money we would have sent to these countries, and spend it on our own people....

WOW!

Instead of funding some warlord over there... we could fix a lot of stuff here!!

(Crickets chirping)

Yeah. Crazy idea.

Most of the programs I was talking about were private based,

perhaps governments should get out of donating aid, or at least be put to limits... such as only being able to match donations made publicly.

Perhaps that way, when times are tough the gov doesn't spend as much... and the gov can no longer choose where the money goes but can only send it where the people choose to send their own money.

" I don't believe in hypothetical situations - it's kinda like lying to your brain "

" They don't hate America, they hate Americans " Homer Simpson

Lets party like its 1939

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Thursday, October 1, 2009 2:41 PM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

“(Americans) are regularly told by politicians and the media, that America is the world's most generous nation. This is one of the most conventional pieces of 'knowledgeable ignorance'. According to the OECD, the Organisation for Economic Cooperation and Development, the US gave between $6 and $15 billion in foreign aid in the period between 1995 and 1999. In absolute terms, Japan gives more than the US, between $9 and $15 billion in the same period. But the absolute figures are less significant than the proportion of gross domestic product (GDP, or national wealth) that a country devotes to foreign aid. On that league table, the US ranks twenty-second of the 22 most developed nations. As former President Jimmy Carter commented: 'We are the stingiest nation of all'. Denmark is top of the table, giving 1.01% of GDP, while the US manages just 0.1%. The United Nations has long established the target of 0.7% GDP for development assistance, although only four countries actually achieve this: Denmark, 1.01%; Norway, 0.91%; the Netherlands, 0.79%; Sweden, 0.7%. Apart from being the least generous nation, the US is highly selective in who receives its aid. Over 50% of its aid budget is spent on middle-income countries in the Middle East, with Israel being the recipient of the largest single share.

Not only that, but according to one source cited by Sarder & Davies, 80% of that aid itself actually goes to American companies in those foreign countries.

The stingiest countries also ... force countries to buy their own services and products with the aid they give; which reduces free trade and commerce and harms the countries economy, as well as being simply selfish and conceited. Thankfully, many countries do not tie their aid. Countries that tie less than 10% of aid include Ireland, Norway and the UK, then Belgium, Finland, Switzerland and Sweden. The USA is the worst, and ties nearly 90% of its aid to developing countries.”

***************************************************************

Business, as usual.

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Thursday, October 1, 2009 3:13 PM

MAGONSDAUGHTER

Yeah, foreign aid is one huge racket - it generally just contributes to corrupt economies. People don't generally starve en masse because there is no food - it's because they've been displaced from their farms and villages by war and tyranny.

Irritating as it may be for us outsiders, it's pretty safe to conclude that the world needs the US economy to be sound - because if you guys go down the gurgler, you're taking the rest of us with you.

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Thursday, October 1, 2009 3:46 PM