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So if I own a cornfield, let's say...
And I hire ten workers to pick corn, let's say.
And I let each worker keep 5% of corn yield, let's say.
So the workers cumulatively get 50% of the yield, and I get 50% of the yield myself...That's not capitalism?

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If I sell 10 shares of cornfield stock on the market, entitling each share-owner to 1/10 of the 50% yield I own, and those shares can be freely traded... That's Capitalism?

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Is it still feudalism now that the 'peasants' own land?

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Originally posted by Fremdfirma:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mondrag%C3%B3n_Cooperative_Corporation

-F

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Originally posted by AnthonyT:
I was very proud of myself, and in fact I still am.

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This is behavior that would be denounced as wrong or even evil by anti-capitalists.

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Originally posted by Fremdfirma:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mondrag%C3%B3n_Cooperative_Corporation

-F

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Originally posted by Geezer:
Shouldn't I be able to ask other folks to risk investing their capital, rather than their labor, in the process?

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Originally posted by AnthonyT:
Hello,

"You left out the part where we don't do the work with trowels, we hire browner people from other lands to do the work. Only they have to use their hands, because we sold the trowels to another country."

I've seen the bulldozers. I promise, I'm not making it up. They exist. They build things in my city every day.

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"So it seems the government CAN build some desirable things, after all."

Well, I have to admit... this completely blows up the argument I never made.

--Anthony

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Originally posted by chrisisall:

*sarcastic snark*

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The closest model I have to pure capitalism is Hong Kong, and... it does remarkably well.

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Originally posted by Kwicko:
By the way, Anthony, your dream capitalist society sounds about as fantastical and unreal as you seem to believe Signy's dream non-capitalist society would be.

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But let me put it this way: I made a phaser in 1979 using materials that were worth maybe 25 cents, plus a pre-made nozzle I purchased for $10. I sold it at a convention for $50.

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I bought a commodity when it was poorly valued, and sold it when it was valued highly. I made a profit based on no labor whatsoever (other than carrying around a box) simply by investing capital into an asset and re-selling it at an opportune moment.

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My point was in the socialist environ depicted in my scenario, there would not be exclusive things for people of extreme wealth, because there would not be people of extreme wealth period. Not even the leaders would supposedly have such things. And yes, I'd say that the lure of somehow, someday obtaining something luxuriant is a motivator. While most of us won't live in luxury, many of us will be able to buy a special something at some point in our lives, whatever it is, that strikes our fancy. Something that is part of a lifestyle beyond our means, but this singular element is obtainable with effort.

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Originally posted by SignyM:

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But let me put it this way: I made a phaser in 1979 using materials that were worth maybe 25 cents, plus a pre-made nozzle I purchased for $10. I sold it at a convention for $50.

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Not capitalism. Primitivism. Peeps have been doing this since anyone wove a basket or chipped a flint. Did you sell stocks in your company, Chris? Did you own and sell someone elses labor?

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Originally posted by SignyM:
Tony, despite the fact that we went through an intensely detailed discussion of what capitalism is and is not, you boomeranged right back to the most ignorant of assumptions.

I knew I shouldn't have put that in, but yanno what? That's exactly what he said, I didn't make it up. It's one thing to be ignorant, it's another thing to be incapable of learning. I just wanted to toss in an outsider's view of this discussion to let you know how your (plural) assumptions would be considered by a neutral third party... how your (plural) views would be considered by an expert. So, I will remove the comment, but I wanted you to know... I'm not making these definitions up.

AND BTW- it doesn't "boil down" to that comment. There is a whole discussion above it which you have ignored. The fact that you DO ignore everything else is what narrows the conversation.

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Done

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Originally posted by AnthonyT:
"There are stupid people everywhere. Why do you bother talking to them?"

Hello,

This is why I am reticent to try to understand anything by discussing it with people here.

It usually comes down to this.

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Originally posted by Kwicko:

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Originally posted by AnthonyT:
"There are stupid people everywhere. Why do you bother talking to them?"

Hello,

This is why I am reticent to try to understand anything by discussing it with people here.

It usually comes down to this.

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And that is why I *DO* discuss things with people here. It's a microcosm, a tiny sliver of the real world, but here, at least, I can interact and hopefully open ONE person's mind just the tiniest crack. It's why the very best of teachers become teachers (a job I could never do) - not to change everybody, but to reach, hopefully, ONE person who will then go on to reach and teach others.

And it's worked the other way, too; I've learned enormous amounts by being here. It's forced me to face assumptions and biases I hold myself; it's forced me to try to keep up and get and remain informed. And, most importantly, it's just plain fun, fun, fun. It's cathartic, in a way - it's a pressure release valve. Yes, sometimes we get carried away with the snark and vitriol, but most of us seem to come back to reality most of the time. And don't think that YOU haven't made US think; while we may have stark disagreements on some things, you've given me new insights and viewpoints to consider, even if I'm considering them in a stance of opposition. How's that a bad thing?

Mike

Let the wild rumpus start!

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Originally posted by SignyM:
Tony, despite the fact that we went through an intensely detailed discussion of what capitalism is and is not, you boomeranged right back to the most ignorant of assumptions.

I knew I shouldn't have put that in, but yanno what? That's exactly what he said, I didn't make it up. It's one thing to be ignorant, it's another thing to be incapable of learning. I just wanted to toss in an outsider's view of this discussion to let you know how your (plural) assumptions would be considered by a neutral third party... how your (plural) views would be considered by an expert. So, I will remove the comment, but I wanted you to know... I'm not making these definitions up.

AND BTW- it doesn't "boil down" to that comment. There is a whole discussion above it which you have ignored. The fact that you DO ignore everything else is what narrows the conversation.

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You have stated quite explicitly that in socialism, I can not own a house.

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The comparisons between 1946 and 1959 show two irrefutable facts about pre-1959 Cuban agriculture. First, both latifundia and minifundia, so damaging for agricultural development, coexisted side by side. Second, agricultural land ownership had become even more concentrated in the period that preceded the revolution. While in 1946 about 8% of the farms were 100 hectares (about 250 acres) or more in size, by early 1959 the same percentage of farms had 402.7 or more hectares (about 600 acres). The existence of latifundia was a clear violation of the 1940 Cuban Constitution...Sugarcane farms dominated in terms of total income, share of income from main crop, total number of farms, and share of total farms [Article 90]

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Originally posted by AnthonyT:

It is less fun when you have a long discussion with someone, trying to absorb a foreign concept, and they come back with, "Hey, I consulted an expert friend of mine, and his expert opinion is that you're an idiot and I shouldn't talk to you."

The alternative statement is often, "Hey, I'm an expert in this field, and my expert opinion is that you're an idiot and not worth talking to."

It discourages further discourse, yannow?

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Venezuela's President Hugo Chavez has insulted Colombia's defence minister over comments critical of the country's anti-drug trafficking efforts.

In his weekly TV programme, Mr Chavez said that Gabriel Silva must be "mentally retarded".

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Originally posted by Geezer:

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Originally posted by AnthonyT:

It is less fun when you have a long discussion with someone, trying to absorb a foreign concept, and they come back with, "Hey, I consulted an expert friend of mine, and his expert opinion is that you're an idiot and I shouldn't talk to you."

The alternative statement is often, "Hey, I'm an expert in this field, and my expert opinion is that you're an idiot and not worth talking to."

It discourages further discourse, yannow?

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Looks like the folk you're describing must be graduates of the Hugo Chavez School of Diplomacy.

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Venezuela's President Hugo Chavez has insulted Colombia's defence minister over comments critical of the country's anti-drug trafficking efforts.

In his weekly TV programme, Mr Chavez said that Gabriel Silva must be "mentally retarded".

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http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/8325358.stm



"Keep the Shiny side up"

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Hello, I'm not sure what impressions you have of my family's land, but it was a house with a big yard. Several dozen fruit trees. A chicken coup. A big dog, too, before it was killed. The small scale agriculture was essential to surviving the lean times when the sugarcane factory was off-season. Sometimes the fruit was traded for other things needed.

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So the defining moment of capitalism happens when I hire someone to work for me? Like, if a neighborhood boy was hired to tend to the chickens in the chicken coup?

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