October 2009 Obama pros and cons by OPPYH

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)

Quote:
Originally posted by OPPYH:

Face it, Obama has proven a major disappointment in almost every category. Turns out he's no savior, or the answer to our prayers. Get used to disappointment.

Again, you seem to have it all wrong in your assumptions of what those who voted for him expected. I *NEVER* expected Obama to be a savior, a messiah, the chosen one, the second coming, the answer to anyone's prayers, or any other kind of religious figure. I thought at best he'd undo some damage and hopefully steer the ship of state a wee bit to the left, hopefully in time to avoid some of the rather larger icebergs and rocks that BushCo had us headed towards.

Honestly, I don't know what it is that FORCES the right to constantly try to couch every single discussion they have in religious terms. It's a sickness, I tell ya. You've been afflicted with religion.

Health care reform IS in the works. This is something McCain would NEVER have even tried. At least Obama actually brought it up.

Wars: Sucks, but if you look back, that's why so many were calling for us NOT to go to war in the first place, and why we said that while it would be NICE if we could just walk away from Iraq, it wasn't really feasible, since BushCo had so utterly fucked the entire thing up from the get-go. Ditto Afghanistan. If anything, ditto it even more so. ;)

I seem to remember a certain someone saying that these wars were going to be long and grueling, and wouldn't be over until well after his time in the Oval Office was done. I guess you forgot about him, huh? You somehow expect Obama to simply wave his hand (there you go with that whole god complex again) and have wars done with, despite the fact that the previous administration wasn't able to make any effective headway in either war during the previous 7 years.

Education: There's still an awful lot of "No Child Left Behind" to dismantle, since it effectively left EVERY child behind.

You seem to have a very dim view of America and her people, if you think that health care reform is going to "cripple" this great nation when no terrorist attack or foreign war has been able to do so.

Fortunately for me, I lived through Nixon's two terms (well, not QUITE two terms -

), Reagan's two terms (I'm sure I remember them better than he did), and all three of the Bushes terms, so I'm very used to disappointment.

By the way, how's Dubya's hunt for Bin Laden coming along? Maybe he should team up with OJ Simpson, who vowed to search the world's golf courses for Nicole's "real killer"!

You forgot some of the biggest Pros about Obama:

1) He's not Bush. That alone seems to be enough to win him a Nobel Prize!

2) He's not McCain.

3) He's not Sarah "I Quit!" Palin.

Any of those are outstanding qualifications in their own right.

Mike

Let the wild rumpus start!

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Tuesday, October 20, 2009 8:01 AM

OPPYH

Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko:

Again, you seem to have it all wrong in your assumptions of what those who voted for him expected. I *NEVER* expected Obama to be a savior, a messiah, the chosen one, the second coming, the answer to anyone's prayers, or any other kind of religious figure.

I guess that was wrong of me, but "Change we can believe in" is turning out to be just a catchy slogan.....and nothing more right?

And for the record, I'm a liberal.

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Tuesday, October 20, 2009 8:08 AM

OPPYH

Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko:

Health care reform IS in the works. This is something McCain would NEVER have even tried. At least Obama actually brought it up.

And I commend him for that but do you realize that forcing employers to provide health care will break millions of small businesses instantly and seriously cripple, and break millions more in the years to come?

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Tuesday, October 20, 2009 8:12 AM

OPPYH

Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko:

By the way, how's Dubya's hunt for Bin Laden coming along? Maybe he should team up with OJ Simpson, who vowed to search the world's golf courses for Nicole's "real killer"!

There's a $20 million bounty on Bin Laddy. Maybe we should seek him out and earn $10 million each?

We don't have to engage him, just tell his location to the authorities. Easy money right?

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Tuesday, October 20, 2009 8:59 AM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Quote:
And I commend him for that but do you realize that forcing employers to provide health care will break millions of small businesses instantly and seriously cripple, and break millions more in the years to come?

So how come they can manage universal health care in France and still have thriving small businesses, family farms and all that? Are you telling me the cheese-eating surrender-monkeys can do something we can't?

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Tuesday, October 20, 2009 9:04 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by OPPYH:

And for the record, I'm a liberal.

Sorry. Any way I can help?

The laughing Chrisisall

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Tuesday, October 20, 2009 9:07 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
So how come they can manage universal health care in France and still have thriving small businesses, family farms and all that?

[Frank Langella voice]France. Who can explain it.[/Frank Langella voice]

The laughing Chrisisall

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Tuesday, October 20, 2009 9:13 AM

PIZMOBEACH

... fully loaded, safety off...

Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
So how come they can manage universal health care in France and still have thriving small businesses, family farms and all that?
[Frank Langella voice]France. Who can explain it.[/Frank Langella voice]

The laughing Chrisisall

Yes, the French do things differently...

Scifi movie music + Firefly dialogue clips, 24 hours a day - http://www.scifiradio.com

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Tuesday, October 20, 2009 9:19 AM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Anyway, to the topic at hand: Obama

PROS: Obama is
Talking to Iran
Abandoning the plan to put missiles in eastern Europe
Told Israel to stop building settlements in occupied territories
(Eventually) got on-board with castigating the coup in Honduras
Loosening restrictions on Cuba
Winding Gitmo down, as he can find hosts for the prisoners
Big PLUS: He's not Bush.

CONS
Is committed to war in Afghanistan
Has not rescinded or revised the US so-called Patriot Act
Is not backing effective health-care reform
Appointed Geithner (of all people)
Needs to get back that bailout money

Strangely, Obama seems to be generally better in international relations and worse in domestic-economic issues. Given his background and experience, I would have it the other way around. I wonder how much input he's getting from Hillary?

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Tuesday, October 20, 2009 9:24 AM

STORYMARK

Quote:
Originally posted by OPPYH:

Face it, Obama has proven a major disappointment in almost every category. Turns out he's no savior, or the answer to our prayers. Get used to disappointment.

I know, I know, conservatives actually did view Dubya with religious overtones, so it seems totally logical that the opposition would view their guy in the same way.... but newsflash... the religious nuts generally are on the right. Sorry to break it to ya.

Well, for those of us who never saw him as a savior (being that only the anti-Obama contingent was really ever pushing that bullshit anyway) and as a normal man with good ideas.... well, he seems to be doing more or less as I would expect in 9 months.

"I thoroughly disapprove of duels. If a man should challenge me, I would take him kindly and forgivingly by the hand and lead him to a quiet place and kill him."

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Tuesday, October 20, 2009 9:26 AM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Just curious if anyone has anything to add to the list. Not having really kept track, and knowing how smart peeps are on this board, I'd appreciate y'all's input.

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Tuesday, October 20, 2009 9:27 AM

STORYMARK

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
Anyway, to the topic at hand: Obama

PROS: Obama is
Talking to Iran
Abandoning the plan to put missiles in eastern Europe
Told Israel to stop building settlements in occupied territories
(Eventually) got on-board with castigating the coup in Honduras
Loosening restrictions on Cuba
Winding Gitmo down, as he can find hosts for the prisoners
Big PLUS: He's not Bush.

CONS
Is committed to war in Afghanistan
Has not rescinded or revised the US so-called Patriot Act
Is not backing effective health-care reform
Appointed Geithner (of all people)
Needs to get back that bailout money

Good list.

"I thoroughly disapprove of duels. If a man should challenge me, I would take him kindly and forgivingly by the hand and lead him to a quiet place and kill him."

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Tuesday, October 20, 2009 9:28 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Storymark:

Well, for those of us who never saw him as a savior

BLASTFEMUR!!!
'Bama is the one true 'Versal anti-Beast!!!

The laughing Chrisisall

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Tuesday, October 20, 2009 9:43 AM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

PRO:
Obama Tells Fed Prosecutors, Don't Waste Your Time with Medical Marijuana Arrests

www.alternet.org/drugreporter/143356/major_blow_to_%27war_on_drugs%27%
3A_obama_tells_fed_prosecutors%2C_don%27t_waste_your_time_with_medical_marijuana_arrests

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Tuesday, October 20, 2009 11:09 AM

Whoah, good pro!

The laughing Chrisisall

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Tuesday, October 20, 2009 11:09 AM

FREMDFIRMA

Oh don't even get me started on the French need to be different - try workin on a Motobecane LB50 and it's extremely strange bolt and nut sizes, some of which are reverse threaded...

I think Obama is, at worst, an extension of the very corrupt Chicago political machine which can trace it's roots all the way back to Tammany Hall, hell, I was a bit surprised they didn't vote the cemetaries as a traditional gesture this time around.

At his best, he's a man who would like to change things for the better, operating within a corrupt and codified system that really gives him few means to do so without subverting the rules in ways that establish some damn bad precedents, which he bloody well KNOWS cause he's a constitutional law scholar, but frustration with the sandbagging and sabotage both from the GOP and factions of his own party are driving him to take larger and larger risks because he really has no choice about it.

He's got a smart crowd though, much as I despise the Clintons, they have international diplomacy skills second to none, and I still think it was a waste to send Bill to the white house instead of the UN - they're also first class shysters, which is damned useful in international policy making AND dealing with the UN.

And he's got Biden, who does such a great job of obfuscating stupidity that y'all have about forgotten he exists - or dismissed him entire, which is a bad, bad mistake, and one that's gonna cost those pricks sandbagging health care reform when he finally wades into it or starts lobbing from the side - I wonder what's takin him so long though.
(Note: anyone who can obfuscate their doings THAT WELL, even from us, is someone to watch.)

And Rahmbo, who contrary to my initial assessment, isn't applying Israels pressure to Obama, so much as he's applying Obamas pressure to Israel, that one kinda surprised me, but I surmise it's some kinda personal fealty thing - AIPAC and the others demanded a high level loyalist in there as a condition of their support, and Obama snagged one more loyal to HIM than he was to THEM, that was slick as hell.

And this whole Czars thing, I don't like that, dangerous precedent and he knows it, but getting anything DONE, well....
A lot of the outrage over it is just as much a sense of injured noblesse oblige from folks who are used to the pork and punch dealmaking which tacks on billions to even the smallest of decisions, who've been effectively bypassed and left feeling a little hungry about it.
But still, it's a damn bad precedent.

Obama is smarter than Carter, and more ruthless by far - while he did get steamrollered by lack of experience and political connections on a national scale, he bulked his team with some folks who did have them, and is willing to make waves and shake the structure to accomplish his goals - which I can admire even as I oppose, cause those goals ain't something I happen to be on board with.

Given the impending disaster he got handed, it's hard to imagine a candidate who'd do a better job, and yes - that even includes someone like Ron Paul or Dennis Kuchinich cause the power of the President *IS* limited, Constitutionally, and a hostile congress and supreme court can completely sandbag them unless they get exceptionally clever - and doin THAT leaves loopholes for exploitation by even less well meaning fellows later, a trap that Chavez fell right into, and Obama is dangerously flirting with.

Hell, that's WHY I couldn't support Perot, he'd have needed near-dictatorial power to pull his plan off, and even if you trusted HIM with it, what if some jackasses like Bush/Cheney came in after him ?
Then you'd wind up worse off than before!

So given the system and situation he's dealin with, he ain't doing no worse than expected and in fact slightly better - but I see that SYSTEM as the problem, rather than what that system produces.

One thing he oughta do is find a rabid budget cutter who's fairly politically neutral - like a State Attorney General or something, I was thinkin Spitzer before the cartel dropped the bomb on him for gettin too close to their economic flakery - and put them in charge of the GAO... then call an Audit.
(Wouldn't mind seeing the Fed face one, either.)
Man, they'd hear the howling in Alpha Centauri.

Anyhows, he ain't done THAT bad, given what he's got to work with, and the system and rules he's stuck having to work from within.

Me, I don't believe in that system, never have, but so long as the great majority of people want it and accept it, we're stuck with it.

But yanno, imma workin on that...

-Frem

It cannot be said enough, those who do not learn from history, are doomed to endlessly repeat it

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Tuesday, October 20, 2009 11:21 AM

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg

Cons:

1. Didnt get us out of Iraq or Afghanistan.
2. Didn't repeal the Patriot Act.
3. Has yet to address Affirmative Action.
4. Didn't affirm a humans right to defend themselves.
5. Has taxed us to death, and may cause a 2nd American revolution.

Pros:

1. Has let the American people see how fucking stupid the 2 parties are.

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Tuesday, October 20, 2009 11:25 AM

Cons:

Gitmo & Torture. This seems to be going NOWHERE.

Wall Street. Rather than push any actual REFORM or regulation, Obama seems content to let those who dropped us down the well be in charge.

War. I understand that getting out of Iraq is going to take time. But if the journey of a thousand miles begins with a single step, then the sooner you actually TAKE that step, the sooner the journey is well and truly begun. As for Afghanistan, I'm at a loss. Fucked if I know what we're doing there anymore.

Gay rights, Don't-Ask-Don't-Tell. This is bullshit. Seriously. He's the President of the United States, and he doesn't need a Constitutional Amendment or the will of Congress to do away with this. An Executive Order would effectively end this program TODAY, if Obama only had the balls to do it.

Overall, my biggest number one gripe with Obama is that he was elected, along with Democrats in the House and Senate, with a wide enough margin to qualify as a real mandate for change - and instead, they've driven straight to the middle. On the rare occasion that they DO try to instigate change or reform, they do it by degrees, in a show of incrementalism. He was given the margins and the power - and the TRUST of the people - to CHANGE things, and he's done nowhere near enough of that, by a long shot.

Someone once said that the ONLY way to be an effective President is to pretend that you're a one-term President or a lame duck, and go from there. You already assume you're going to be ousted, or you're term-limited, so quit fucking worrying about reelection and just get on with actually DOING SOMETHING POSITIVE! Because if you don't, you'll be a one-termer anyway.

Mike

Let the wild rumpus start!

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Tuesday, October 20, 2009 11:32 AM

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg

You guys do know... we could do JUST FINE WITHOUT A PRESIDENT, and all the rest, right?

The FF set it up that way.

Fuck the Fed. Government.

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Tuesday, October 20, 2009 11:34 AM

FREMDFIRMA

There's that whole "having the power to do" thing, Wulf, with some of that.

No, he hasn't pressed hard enough on getting us out of the quagmire or shutting down the patriot act - his party isn't gonna support the latter now that said power is in THEIR hands, oh hell no, and he cannot do it singlehandedly even if he wanted to, and even if he could, then he'd lose all their support and be virtually powerless, or go straight tyrant - cause of the way the system works.

So share that blame around to the folks he HAS to appease in order to get ANYTHING done - by all means flame the whole Democratic Party Machinery, Republican too - but he's one guy, and no tyrant, thankfully.

As for the fifth item - yeah, taxing us into poverty sucks, but don't go forgettin WHO ran those bills up in the first place, neither.

Trying to pay them down is good, painful that it is, cause otherwise we're gonna wind up like Zimbabwe, which'd majorly suck.

Cutting spending would be better, but again, that Congressional approval thing, bleh.

I'll give that yeah, we're finally seeing just what morons we have for politicians - but the key to fixing that is putting a boot to their asses at the polls - we still got box two in our arsenal, and we're takin back boxes one and three.

So no need to get all box four about it just yet.

-F

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Tuesday, October 20, 2009 11:43 AM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Quote:
Has taxed us to death, and may cause a 2nd American revolution.

He has???? Have your income taxes gone up?? 'Cause mine haven't.

Assuming that it DOES happen, just remember who ran up the tab, 'mkay?

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Tuesday, October 20, 2009 11:47 AM

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg

Yeah, the Federal government ran up the tab, and the Changmeister kept upping the bill.

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Tuesday, October 20, 2009 11:50 AM

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg

WE DON'T NEED A POTUS.

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Tuesday, October 20, 2009 11:51 AM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

'Specially since he's black?

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Tuesday, October 20, 2009 11:55 AM

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg

and you call me racist?

Fucking Libs and your underhanded racism.

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Tuesday, October 20, 2009 11:55 AM

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg

and you call me racist?

Fucking Libs and your underhanded racism.

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Tuesday, October 20, 2009 12:15 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Wulfenstar:
You guys do know... we could do JUST FINE WITHOUT A PRESIDENT, and all the rest, right?

The FF set it up that way.

Cites, please? The Constitution seems to disagree quite strongly with you.

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Tuesday, October 20, 2009 12:19 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Wulfenstar:
5. Has taxed us to death, and may cause a 2nd American revolution.

He has? What taxes can you list that have significantly gone up? And what NEW taxes has Obama implemented?

Mike

Let the wild rumpus start!

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Tuesday, October 20, 2009 12:23 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Wulfenstar:
and you call me racist?

Fucking Libs and your underhanded racism.

It's just pure coincidence that you never had an issue with having a President until it was one of "them", huh?

Fucking racists and your overhanded racism.

Mike

Let the wild rumpus start!

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Tuesday, October 20, 2009 12:42 PM

STORYMARK

Quote:
5. Has taxed us to death, and may cause a 2nd American revolution.

A lie and crazy paranoia in once sentence. Bravo!

I don't know anyone who's taxes went up.

And I don't know anyone with a functioning brain who's hoping for a 2nd revolution.

oh, and we think your a racist, because your a racist.

"I thoroughly disapprove of duels. If a man should challenge me, I would take him kindly and forgivingly by the hand and lead him to a quiet place and kill him."

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Tuesday, October 20, 2009 12:45 PM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Quote:
and you call me racist?

Yep. And the reason why I call you a racist is... despite your protestations that you've gotten past Obama's blackness and have moved on to recognizing the problems as systemic... there is still a curious indirect "the bubblegum got on the dog" quality about (not) blaming the previous President by name (his name was Bush, remember???) but VERY direct tagging of Obama specifically for every blessed thing that has gone wrong (and some things that haven't... like taxes.) So I suspect you're not exactly at the point of even-handedness yet.

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Tuesday, October 20, 2009 12:45 PM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...

I agree with most everything Sig and Mike have said about the pros and cons.

Frem, with some exceptions, you pretty much said what I feel:

Quote:
At his best, he's a man who would like to change things for the better, operating within a corrupt and codified system

I fee the same. Someone mentioned about the Presidency's limitations--which Obama did as well. Remember when he was asked about what surprised him about being President, and one of his answers was that he was surprised about, can't remember exactly, something to do with the inability to get things done?

Doesn't anyone think that if weren't for the Repubs becoming so VIOLENTLY the "Party of No", a lot more would have gotten done? I heard the other night that they believe it's the way it's supposed to be: one party is in power, the other is the opposition. But that things have changed, the American people want ACTION, and the right is behind the times in not realizing that.

A President can only get so much done, and can only even ATTEMPT so much, given the political climate, knowing some things he'd DO wouldn't even be considered. Like I don't expect to see him go after the DOM any time soon...essentially he's got to get that magic 60 to agree on anything he wants to accomplish via Congress, as the Repubs won't vote for anything, period. So how much can we blame Obama, actually?

You addressed that with

Quote:
frustration with the sandbagging and sabotage both from the GOP and factions of his own party

, but personally, I don't see it as causing him to "take larger and larger risks because he really has no choice about it." I see him more as being stymied and trying to work around it.

I agree in part that "He's got a smart crowd", with some pretty obvious exceptions'

Quote:
And he's got Biden....dismissed him entire, which is a bad, bad mistake, and one that's gonna cost those pricks sandbagging health care reform when he finally wades into it or starts lobbing from the side - I wonder what's takin him so long though.

I agree, and have begun to wonder whether they'll put him in at ALL. It seems to me that the REAL fight for healthcare is just about to begin, not have been actually going on all this time. I have a suspicion that they let Congress and the Repubs do their stupidity thing until they had a couple of bills, now MAY (I hope) actually get to work getting what they want. Only time will tell.

Quote:
And Rahmbo, who contrary to my initial assessment, isn't applying Israels pressure to Obama, so much as he's applying Obamas pressure to Israel, that one kinda surprised me, but I surmise it's some kinda personal fealty thing - AIPAC and the others demanded a high level loyalist in there as a condition of their support, and Obama snagged one more loyal to HIM than he was to THEM, that was slick as hell.

I agree, and giggled as I watched it take shape. Dunno how much headway Obama and Rahlm can make with Israel in reality, but it's good to have power that can see things straight, not just back the Israelis with eyes closed...refreshing!

Quote:
And this whole Czars thing, I don't like that, dangerous precedent and he knows it, but getting anything DONE, well....A lot of the outrage over it is just as much a sense of injured noblesse oblige from folks who are used to the pork and punch dealmaking which tacks on billions to even the smallest of decisions, who've been effectively bypassed and left feeling a little hungry about it. But still, it's a damn bad precedent.

The precedent was set by Bush, who had FAR more czars than Obama has yet set up. The outrage about czars has made me laugh--as has so much else for the same reason--given how much of the behavior they decry in Obama was done, and done much WORSE, by Bush!

Quote:
Obama is smarter than Carter, and more ruthless by far - while he did get steamrollered by lack of experience and political connections on a national scale, he bulked his team with some folks who did have them, and is willing to make waves and shake the structure to accomplish his goals

Moi aussi, except I approve of some of the goals he's trying to accomplish, and I believe WILL try to accomplish in the future.

Then there's the biggie:

Quote:
Given the impending disaster he got handed, it's hard to imagine a candidate who'd do a better job

That is the only response necessary, as far as I'm concerned; I don't judge Obama exclusively on what he's accomplished, but on the fact that he was handed such a bucket of shit and is doing SOMETHING positive about it, as best he can, and I believe will do more.

I'm no fan of Paul or Kucinich, I'm afraid, however.

And there it is:

Quote:
the power of the President *IS* limited, Constitutionally, and a hostile congress and supreme court can completely sandbag them unless they get exceptionally clever

That's the biggie, for me, and means that I can't really know what Obama is capable of accomplishing, or even what HE would like to accomplish totally, since I know he won't even TRY some of the things he wants, and some of his stances will be determined by the above.

Quote:
doin THAT leaves loopholes for exploitation by even less well meaning fellows later

That's always a danger, I'm just hoping Obama keeps it in mind--so MUCH has been done that increses the power of the Presidency by Bush, I'd like to see a whole helluvalot of dismantling as time goes by, myownself.

Quote:
So given the system and situation he's dealin with, he ain't doing no worse than expected and in fact slightly better - but I see that SYSTEM as the problem, rather than what that system produces.

Bingo. Says it all for me. This thing about "The One" and all that crap has long mystified me. I guess it's about the enthusiasm with which the country embraced him, but me, I never expected miracles and, tho' frustrated on some points and hopeful on others, I never expected him to ride in on his white horse and make everything perfect. I agree with others that I think that's just a ploy by the right wingers to knock him down, just like all the others they have been and are employing.

I, too, lived through Reagan and Nixon, and was shocked by much of what they did and disgusted by other things...but tho' the four years of Daddy were bad, the eight of Sonny shocked me more than anything I'd seen before. Obama, in contrast to all three of them, is a breath of fresh air.

Now, if we could just whip the Repubs into acting like responsible representatives of the people (hahahahahahahahahahahahah), maybe we could get government moving FORWARD... Hey, I'm allowed to dream...

________________________
Together we are greater than the sum of our parts

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Tuesday, October 20, 2009 2:38 PM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Quote:
That's always a danger, I'm just hoping Obama keeps it in mind--so MUCH has been done that increses the power of the Presidency by Bush, I'd like to see a whole helluvalot of dismantling as time goes by, myownself

The thing to do... heh heh heh... would be to write up a whole bunch of signing statements and Executive Orders, and then dismantle the process on the way out....

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Tuesday, October 20, 2009 4:46 PM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important

"Loosening restrictions on Cuba"

Hello,

Action on this front has been maddeningly slight. When the embargo goes away, this will be worth mentioning as an actual accomplishment. In the meantime, it is a thin PR move with little actual effect.

I would add to the Con Obama's vote against pursuing communications companies that obeyed illegal orders to spy on Americans. I realize this happened just before he became president, but I consider it a con he carries behind him as a firmly established precedent.

Also, "He's Not Bush" needs to stop being a plus. Whatever pros he has are there because he is not Bush, so "He's not Bush" is redundant in my opinion.

--Anthony

"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner

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Tuesday, October 20, 2009 5:48 PM

FREMDFIRMA

Wulf ?

Lemme try a different tack, here.

Lemme give you a figure - twenty five million, ok ?
Mostly women, kids and seniors.

Try to imagine that many people.
Try to picture their faces, their wants and dreams, who they are and who they wanna be, where they wanna go in life, who they might some day be, these people.

And now picture them, all of them - dead.

Cause that's the cost.

Our BEST case, no-shoot showdown estimate of what a second revolt, revolution, or whatever you have it - is gonna cost us, twenty five million people, primarily concentrated in women, children, and seniors - starvation, disease, dehydration and exposure will kill that many, and damned quickly, as soon as the utility and transportation infrastructure fails for any reason - those in the cities, the poorest and least able, will be the first to die, but they'll not be alone, oh no, plenty more will die too - many of them shot trying to escape that hell by the very folk who indirectly caused it, right wing reactionaries and survivalist types trying to protect what they have, and yet who will themselves follow them into the grave for lack of allies and support structure soon after.

And again, that's a BEST case, idealized estimate - and we both know that's bunk cause when the pressure comes, the powers that be are gonna play ROUGH.

Do you think they'd not do that, having the "biggest stick" in the world ?
Did it never occur to you that the greater part of that monster military budget isn't to protect us from dipshit little countries who spend less than a tenth of that at most - it is to protect them from us!

So everytime your mouth wants to utter the word "revolution" - I want you to picture that tremendous cost, all those people who'd die for it, many of whom are too young to bear any guilt about it.

And ask yourself if it's WORTH that.

Me, imma find another way, if that means temporarily putting up with shit that ought not to be put up with - well, that's what it means...
Cause I am ALWAYS inchin that flag forward, one little bit at a time, and sometimes more than a little.

There's ways and ways, Wulf - start introducing your locals to the wonder of the fast recall (see also: Michigan with Love thread) and start puttin it to your own politicos that they CAN be, and WILL be, fired if they screw it up.

And then, once we got that message across good and solid, pass the ultimatim to State Reps, then Federal - do the job, or get ejected.

Oh yeah, and while the bailouts are a bipartisan fubar - it wasn't Obama that got us up to the ass in two stupid, pointless disasters in the middle east, only thing against him is not gettin us the hell out of there with all due speed.

And the COST of those, and removing THAT many people from our economy for almost a decade, is hideous, heinous, even, when you strip off the bullshit and tally up the total.

But it's a hell of a lot cheaper than twenty five million mostly innocent people, at least by my lights.

So bear that in mind when you start talkin revolts.

-Frem

It cannot be said enough, those who do not learn from history, are doomed to endlessly repeat it

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Monday, October 26, 2009 12:12 PM

DREAMTROVE

Pros:

Environmental policy

Maybe:

Net Neutrality (this bill might actually be a cover like the clean air act. The effected special interests are split on supporting and opposing it. Seems to favor big sites over little ones.)

Cons:

NOT Talking to Iran
More war
Total Economic Meltdown
Nowhere on reversing a number of bush policies, secret prisons, domestic surveillance, patriot act, supplement defense spending, bailouts, etc. etc. etc.
Oh, and creeping socialism.

Sig, the missile systems being moved from anti-russia to anti Iran is hardly progress.

I disagree with the president on Israel. It's not the settlers that are the problem, it's the military industrial complex which we are still funding in Israel. Nowhere on that, and not likely to with Rahm and co.

Not sure yet that he's not Bush.

Quote:
Appointed Geithner (of all people)

Lol. So true. Also Larry Summers, and kept Bernanke. There's an economic disaster team. Sure looks different from the nobel prize winning economists he had lined up on the campaign trail. I wonder who's actually driving this boat... if anyone.

Wulf,

I don't think you can blame the president for things that haven't happened yet. Sure, there are lots of things that *might* happen. Also, affirmative action and gun control? You should be *happy* that he hasn't addressed these issues. His own constituents would roast him alive if he opposed either one, so if he's avoiding the topic, then he's as close to your side as he can possibly be. Use some objective reason here.

I mean, sure, I support RTL, but I think Obama would be a moron to do so. I'm definitely okay with him keeping his mouth shut on the issue, which he hasn't entirely, but he hasn't made a big deal out of it, so I let it slide. Some things you just get because you elected a democrat or a republican, and you just accept it and move on. Oh, and do look for him to crack down on labor unions either.

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Monday, October 26, 2009 12:25 PM

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg

Ok, maybe I look at things differently.

You really want to change things?

Have a black man, who is the PRESIDENT, say that Affirmative Action is wrong, and racist to boot. Have him affirm an individuals right to self protection.

REALLY shake things up.

Pull us out of the whole right/left thing, the whole black/white thing.

Push, instead, for a more liberty centered ideal.

Yeah, you might lose your constituents (Demolibs), and might NOT have a job in 3 years.

But you know what? At least you struck a blow for the people.

Stop playing politics. Act FOR the people, not your monetary backers.

Again tho, I agree... since he is not the person to do this, at least he has shut the fuck up about it and "ignored" it.

God knows, no matter what he does, he will get a statue.

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Monday, October 26, 2009 1:25 PM