No more RWED for me by OPPYH

Quote:
Originally posted by pizmobeach:

You just listed 3 great reasons to continue posting. Don't let Kwicko get you down, he's just, yanno, ANGRY. You have a unique perspective, keep posting.

Other than lumping me in with the "conservative" crowd(I'd rather die) I share a lot of Mike's views.
Obviously we don't see eye to eye on health care, but that's fine.
I'd like to recommend bringing back the Whig party......ummm minus the pro-slavery though.

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Sunday, November 22, 2009 1:48 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by piratenews:
Don't let the server hit you on the way out.

Make your Carbon Tax checks payable to "Al Gore"
http://fireflyfans.net/mthread.asp?b=18&t=40913

Al gore would have been our green savior you dolt.

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Sunday, November 22, 2009 1:51 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by AnthonyT:
"I hate republicans"

Hello,

I hope and encourage you to return here when you find less hate residing within you.

--Anthony

Wow, even after my apology and you are still taking jabs. In a rare mood today are we?

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Sunday, November 22, 2009 1:57 PM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important

Quote:
Originally posted by OPPYH:
Quote:
Originally posted by AnthonyT:
"I hate republicans"

Hello,

I hope and encourage you to return here when you find less hate residing within you.

--Anthony

Wow, even after my apology and you are still taking jabs. In a rare mood today are we?

Hello,

It's true that my mood has not been enhanced today. However, I am commenting against hate, and encouraging you to return when you have less of it.

I have accepted your apology, but I do think you need to let your vitriol ebb. A period of departure may be wise.

--Anthony

"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner

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Sunday, November 22, 2009 3:19 PM

OPPYH,

Actually, you just pretty much pegged the mainstream position here. Good luck finding people elsewhere with that viewpoint.

I will say, Al Gore is a douche, but Bush was a disaster. Still, I can't convince myself that it would have been all that different. Gore is a sub-genius, and he could have easily been run by his VP who was Lieberman. Since the US was already engaged in wars in Iraq and Afghanistan at and before the election, the a Lieberman driven policy being different? I just don't see it.

True, there's partisan bickering here, but it's real mild, most people just don't feel passionately for their side. If Obama just backed off from the whole global stance and acted like a normal liberal I'd be happy, even though I'm a conservative. It's that collectively, we're all here a little ticked at the whole Dem-Rep power grab.

I think this is a core Firefly principle, and I posted a couple years ago that maybe the dems and reps and their cooperative duopoly *were* "the alliance"

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Sunday, November 22, 2009 3:23 PM

BYTEMITE

Apparently I missed some bad mojo.

Well, I think you should stay, I think you contribute to the conversation. The RWED actually isn't always about attacking each other's positions, at least it's never been so for me.

But it's also your choice, I can understand leaving if you feel like you're taking a lot of abuse.

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Sunday, November 22, 2009 4:09 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Bytemite:
Apparently I missed some bad mojo.

Well, I think you should stay, I think you contribute to the conversation. The RWED actually isn't always about attacking each other's positions, at least it's never been so for me.

But it's also your choice, I can understand leaving if you feel like you're taking a lot of abuse.

I can hold my own, it's just that I can't stand behind the democratic party, and I'm certainly not a republican. I have decided to cease all future RWED posts.
Life is too short to worry about politics, much less write about them. I already feel free as a bird.

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Sunday, November 22, 2009 4:14 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by AnthonyT:
Quote:
Originally posted by OPPYH:
Quote:
Originally posted by AnthonyT:
"I hate republicans"

Hello,

I hope and encourage you to return here when you find less hate residing within you.

--Anthony

Wow, even after my apology and you are still taking jabs. In a rare mood today are we?

Hello,

It's true that my mood has not been enhanced today. However, I am commenting against hate, and encouraging you to return when you have less of it.

I have accepted your apology, but I do think you need to let your vitriol ebb. A period of departure may be wise.

--Anthony

When this thread is done, then so am I...in the RWED of course.

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Sunday, November 22, 2009 4:55 PM

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)

Oh hell, Oppyh - you and I are all good. We have our disagreements, sometimes vehement ones, but that's sure as hell no reason for you to leave RWED.

Heck, Anthony and I are like oil and water on some issues, but we still get along like peas and carrots most of the time. Same with RIPWash and some others.

I tend to be a bit extreme, and I sometimes lack a self-edit feature. Since it's pretty much impossible to offend me, I assume others are the same way.

But for damn sure you shouldn't let the crap I toss out there get to ya - if it helps, think of me as the local poop-throwing monkey! :)

Anyway, stick around - we need dissenting opinions. I tend to learn more from Frem and Dream when I'm arguing with them than when we're agreeing on stuff. Ditto Anthony and numerous others.

As Frem has pointed out, when you jump into these shark-infested waters, have a viewpoint and an opinion, and be ready to defend it against all comers. And be ready for the snark, because on a Joss Whedon site, it flies around pretty thick!

Mike

Work is the curse of the Drinking Class.
- Oscar Wilde

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Sunday, November 22, 2009 5:01 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by pizmobeach:
You just listed 3 great reasons to continue posting. Don't let Kwicko get you down, he's just, yanno, ANGRY. You have a unique perspective, keep posting.

Hear, hear! You nailed it, Piz. Most of my anger comes in the form of "How the FUCK did we get to this point in our nation?" And then it's compounded when I look at the current "leadership" (on both sides of the aisle), and I have to wonder, "How the FUCK are THESE asswipes going to lead us OUT of this shitstorm?"

So, yeah... Anger. Oddly enough, I find writing it out to be cathartic. So this place is my pressure-release valve.

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Sunday, November 22, 2009 5:43 PM

I'm officially not here, and you guys were supposed to kick my ass if I overpost. At the moment, my inventory programming is being a little bitch, so I have to let it chill, so I'm back here, posting on an exodus thread.

I've posted a number of exodus threads, but they're not a "hey I'm vaporizing" but more of a "hey, I don't have time to debate this stuff, because I have a helluva workload and if I post, I'm not working, so I'm only going to read interesting looking threads and dodge a lot of arguments."

Finally, I think that it's an ironic timing what with you've just been pegged as a sockpuppet here, so unless that was a joke, maybe it's a thing to speak to. See, there's a little thing here which kinda is a source of disagreement, but I have a general feel for the take on it, and here's what I've come to:

Sockpuppetry itself isn't a problem.

Unique users are always welcome

People using sock puppets to gang up on someone or to draw attention, that's gonna tick people off, and that fire is going to fall on the associated usernames, so if this is a stunt, and people get ticked off, after Oppyh disappears, the fire is all going to fall on Participant and Jayneztown, rightly or wrongly. Just soes you know.

Personally, I can see one very justifiable reason for the use of sockpuppets, and it's not to support or knock arguments or to say things that you or your character doesn't want any association with, it's for people to get a fresh start.

For instance: I think that sometimes Wulf thinks that his posts get attacked *because* they are posted by Wulf.

I'm very sure this is not the case. He has posted some things outside of race and 2a, and they haven't been attacked.

But it certainly *has* been the case with other users, and no, I'm not pointing fingers, it's happened more than once. This is a perfectly legit escape. UserX posts and everyone on the other side jumps because they harbor some ill will. I don't think there's a place for that, but it does happen. Fortunately, there's a way around that, which is sockpuppets.

Yeah, I like this place, I like all its flaws. I'm a fan of the bugs. I like changing thread titles, necroposting sockpuppets starting flamewars for trollcountry whackamole... in its place. Everything has it's place. Sure, it ain't perfect, but it's home. A home where no one knows you're a dog.

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Sunday, November 22, 2009 8:39 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko:
So, yeah... Anger. Oddly enough, I find writing it out to be cathartic. So this place is my pressure-release valve.

Yes. RWED is a fantastic place to vent, and I agree writing about issues that bother me helps...a little. But I guess I just worry too much is our present society. Venting doesn't seem to do much for me anymore.
When war stops, and all the red tape and fear of the health care reform is ironed out, maybe I can relax and return here. Hell, I might even by you gents a beer if I'm in your neighborhood.

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Monday, November 23, 2009 3:36 AM

6IXSTRINGJACK

Quote:
Originally posted by OPPYH:
I hate republicans, and the democratic administration is leaving me cold.
SO in a sense I'm politically homeless.

The problem with most people is that they truly believe that.

There is more than 2 ways of thinking. We just need to dismantle the 2 party system.

EDITED TO ADD:

If you look back on threads I was one of the biggest haters on Bush in here. I seriously do hate to say I told you so though. I'd rather be wrong and admit it than see things just getting worse everyday.

"A government is a body of people, usually notably ungoverned."

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Monday, November 23, 2009 5:26 AM

FREMDFIRMA

Think on this.

RWED is, in effect, a fully functional anarchist community.

And yet, despite having no "authority" to appeal to, or rather, never wanting to bother Haken over stuff - despite all our disagreements and occasionally vicious bursts of personal or philosophical animosity...

No blood has been spilt.

That's better than most communities, hell, better than most *countries*, when you get right down to it, and without the need to tiptoe or soft-shoe, core issues tend to get scoured down to the meat of the arguments and put under the microscope - which is a good thing, it is only the questioning of even the beliefs we hold most dear which reveals the truth of anything to us.

And we DO learn, even from those we disagree with, if not especially from them.

So while the vitriol can be a bit unsettling, and one can certainly understand the desire to self impose a limit on it, don't lose sight of just how productive unregulated discussions here ARE, just because they're often less polite.

-Frem
"Every time you smile, you remind me that baring of teeth is a sign of aggression..."

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Monday, November 23, 2009 6:24 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Been gone for a bit, so - did I miss something on the board? Or was it the Senate vote that drove a stake through your political heart?

In any case, I agree w/ the poster who said you've just listed three good reasons to keep posting. Most Dems here tend to lean Independent. I'm not finding a lot of peeps who are wildly pro-Obama, and while the board is intensely political, peeps here (at least the non-crazy ones) spend more time talking about policies, not pushing the partisan line.

But, I understand getting burned out, so while I hope that you continue to post, I also wish you well and bon chance with the wish that you will come back soon.

Happy Thanksgiving, Oppyh. Merry Xmas, and Happy New Year too. I hope you come back before then.

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Monday, November 23, 2009 6:31 AM

6IXSTRINGJACK

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
Been gone for a bit, so - did I miss something on the board? Or was it the Senate vote that drove a stake through your political heart?

In any case, I agree w/ the poster who said you've just listed three good reasons to keep posting. Most Dems here tend to lean Independent. I'm not finding a lot of peeps who are wildly pro-Obama, and while the board is intensely political, peeps here (at the the non-crazy ones) spend more time talking about policies, not pushing the partisan line.

But, I understand getting burned out, so while I hope that you continue to post, I also wish you well and bon chance with the wish that you will come back soon.

Happy Thanksgiving, Oppyh. Merry Xmas, and Happy New Year too. I hope you come back before then.

Signy... funny how it's not partisan when we're talking about what a jagoff Bush was, right?

I fully endorse anyone here to be non-partisan as much as humanly possible.

Oppyh....

You'll be back... We always come back...

"A government is a body of people, usually notably ungoverned."

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Monday, November 23, 2009 7:39 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

6IX: "You're such a boob".

Bush was a jagoff because he was a jagoff, not because he was Republican. Most of the criticisms I've seen about Bush was because he was duped into war by Cheney, and because of his tinkle-on theory of economics which brought us to this fine economic mess, not because he was a "Republican".

But, if you want to assume the mantle of republicanism, and defend what was not attacked... feel free.

ETA: My view of Bush is that he was an unmitigated disaster. I can't think of a single major thing he did that didn't have significant negative consequences for our nation. My view of Clinton, FWIW, is that he was a mitigated disaster. He did some very positive things and some very negative ones. My view of Obama is very much the same as my view of Clinton, but that it's still too early in his Presidency to make any final judgment. I don't see how that's partisan. I'm simply assessing them against MY view of a "reasonable" course of action.

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Monday, November 23, 2009 9:50 AM

I have to say only the misanthrope here is making sense to me. I've had some exchanges with Haken and he has expressed concern over the nature of the forum once or twice, and come in to post to steer the conversation, but never to alter the content to please him, only when he feared that the site might get shut down. Once or twice he's gone so far as to delete threads, but it is the perfect govt, one that only takes action to prevent the society from being controlled, and never to control it.

And bear in mind that technically, this is a dictatorship. It's just that said dictatorship is just a shell for a free society.

I'll only comment that misanthrope is a misused term, and not that you're the diet coke of evil, just that someone who devoted his life to helping people is not misanthropic, yet it is used to refer to someone who opposes our social structure Meanwhile, someone who randomly bombs civilian village in far away lands is now called a savior by the left, just as a short time ago, someone who did the same thing was called a savior by the right...

But here's a more misused term: Philanthropist.

You're a philanthropist if you give 5 million dollars to Hillary Clinton but keep slaves, torture them, and occasionally kill children. This was a bio of a Saudi I just read.

It' a sad commentary that the wealthy elite have been able to label themselves lovers of mankind simply for spending their money however they damn well please. The first peoples I can remember as a child being referred to as philanthropists were Andrew Carnegie and John D Rockefeller. I guess if you love people enough, you'll open fire on your own workers.

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Monday, November 23, 2009 10:22 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

DT: I have no idea what you're riffing on.

And I take exception to you saying that "the left" thinks Obama is a savior for bombing people in faraway lands. "The left" is highly critical of Obama for a lot of things INCLUDING his deeper intrusion into Afghanistan. If you actually read any leftist writings, you'd know that already. ( www.alternet.org, The Nation, The Huffington post etc. ) So I don't know what "left" you're referring to, but I suspect it's "the left" that exists only in your head.

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Monday, November 23, 2009 10:31 AM

PIRATENEWS

John Lee, conspiracy therapist at Hollywood award-winner History Channel-mocked SNL-spoofed PirateNew.org wooHOO!!!!!!

There is no free speech, unless you own your own website on your own server on your own ISP with your own pirate radio transmitter in your own bunker surrounded by barbed wire and 50-cal gun turrets, like this:

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Monday, November 23, 2009 12:05 PM

Sig,

that should have begun "Frem"

As for the left seeing Obama as savior, it was as was only a few in Bush, it's only a few on the left.

Also, sure, some on the left are visceral opponents of Obama's foreign policy, and the same was true on the right of Bush's.

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Monday, November 23, 2009 2:12 PM

Quote:
So while the vitriol can be a bit unsettling, and one can certainly understand the desire to self impose a limit on it, don't lose sight of just how productive unregulated discussions here ARE, just because they're often less polite.

Yup, indeed. I ask questions, not to be an asshole (that's just a side bonus!), but to make you uncomfortable, make you question what you're saying you believe. I ask them of myself, too; trust me on that one.

I've been asked the uncomfortable questions here as well, by folks like Frem, and Rue, and SignyM, and DreamTrove. And you know what I've found? Sometimes it really is okay to answer the unanswerable questions by saying, "I don't know. I haven't found an answer for that."

What I *have* noticed is that most often, those who are the most offended by what I say or ask, if you look at their posts and mine, you'll see that more often than not, all I've done is use their own words and change the situation around a bit. Why so many people find such things offensive is beyond me.

A belief that can't withstand the harsh light of day and a few uncomfortable questions strikes me as a rather fragile and unstable belief to begin with, and one that was never really going to hold up for the long haul.

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Monday, November 23, 2009 2:19 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
Been gone for a bit, so - did I miss something on the board? Or was it the Senate vote that drove a stake through your political heart?

In any case, I agree w/ the poster who said you've just listed three good reasons to keep posting. Most Dems here tend to lean Independent. I'm not finding a lot of peeps who are wildly pro-Obama, and while the board is intensely political, peeps here (at least the non-crazy ones) spend more time talking about policies, not pushing the partisan line.

But, I understand getting burned out, so while I hope that you continue to post, I also wish you well and bon chance with the wish that you will come back soon.

Happy Thanksgiving, Oppyh. Merry Xmas, and Happy New Year too. I hope you come back before then.

I might be the most wild-eyed Obama supporter who's still here. Or who's ever been here. Polls show his approval ratings at just under 50% - and all I can think is, who are these dolts who APPROVE of this shit?

He's trying to do the best with a shit situation. Oh, fuck it - he's trying to do THE LEAST with a shit situation. You know how people always go, "Oh, it's the least we could do"? Well, in this case, I actually think our President is trying to do THE VERY LEAST HE CAN DO. The bare minimum, the tiniest amount that will allow him to skate by.

I don't know about you, but that's not good enough for me. As President, you really should know that it's the very hardest job you're ever going to face, and you should go into every single day as if it's your last day on Earth, and ask yourself, "If I die today, what good will I have accomplished?" Don't accept the day; ATTACK IT.

Now, remember - I'm probably the MOST partisan Obama supporter here. And I'm deeply disappointed and more than a little bit troubled by the man's indecisiveness on some key issues. It doesn't matter what you do; all that matters is that you do it.

Mike

Work is the curse of the Drinking Class.
- Oscar Wilde

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Monday, November 23, 2009 2:23 PM

Quote:
My view of Bush is that he was an unmitigated disaster. I can't think of a single major thing he did that didn't have significant negative consequences for our nation.

Ahem...

Okay, as probably the most virulent anti-Bush crusader here, I think I have to speak up on this one as well. He more than quadrupled spending to combat AIDS in Africa, which isn't nothing. I applaud the man for that. I might not agree with HOW it's being spent, but I applaud him for addressing the issue. And I think it really should be given more attention than it gets.

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Monday, November 23, 2009 2:44 PM

Mike

It's interesting, but almost everyone I've talked to on this agrees: His African policies were reasonably fair.. I suspect the reason for this is that Bush was a very weak individual. There were relatively few special interests pulling him around on Africa, so he behaved decently most of the time. I thought he took the right line supporting Blah in Liberia, and stemming the Janjaweed in Darfur.

But anywhere there was a major special interest, he let that rule the day. Even when Bush or a member of his cabinet took the right stand, it would be soon reversed...

That said...

I think Obama has the same problem. He means well by default, but he's weak, and bends to the pressures of special interests. It's why I am forced to call this the Goldman/Sachs 2012 ticket.

Sure, as I said during the campaign: I like Obama. I don't like his friends. Nothing has changed on that, and as of yet, his friends have a lot more sway than he does.

As usual, I will reiterate, the US is not a dictatorship, the president is the presider, and presides over the govt. The congress makes the decisions, and they are in the hands of the PTB, as are the parties, and so the advisor staff grows. I'm not naive, I know that Obama has connections to these guys going way back, it's why he was picked. But everyone is still an individual. Alas, this individual, so far, is weak.

Still, I hold to my 18 mos rule. Obama has until 7/20/2010 to stand up to TPTB, or I go to work for the competition, even if that means Sarah Palin.

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Tuesday, November 24, 2009 9:01 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...

Quote:
No blood has been spilt.

Not a fair comparison. It's the internet--we can't get at one another. I have the distinct feel that if we could, there'd be violence, especially given that politics and religion are the two most heated subjects people can discuss. I also think the "debates" might well go on considerably longer in face-to-face discussions, giving them far greater chance of becoming physical. The written word is useful in that it gives us the chance to better understand what's "said" by being able to reread it, so less misunderstanding helps, even tho' it's not complete.

Besides, certainly PN would have arrived with his AK47 somewhere along the line...maybe even Wulf... ;o)

Sig, you nailed it for me:

Quote:
I take exception to you saying that "the left" thinks Obama is a savior for bombing people in faraway lands. "The left" is highly critical of Obama for a lot of things INCLUDING his deeper intrusion into Afghanistan. If you actually read any leftist writings, you'd know that already. ( www.alternet.org, The Nation, The Huffington post etc. )

Mike:

Quote:
I might be the most wild-eyed Obama supporter who's still here.

Nope. That's unrequitedly me, or at least equally me. And I'm pissed as hell, just trying to hang on (by a thread) and give him time. But

Quote:
He's trying to do the best with a shit situation. Oh, fuck it - he's trying to do THE LEAST with a shit situation. You know how people always go, "Oh, it's the least we could do"? Well, in this case, I actually think our President is trying to do THE VERY LEAST HE CAN DO. The bare minimum, the tiniest amount that will allow him to skate by.

I don't know about you, but that's not good enough for me. As President, you really should know that it's the very hardest job you're ever going to face, and you should go into every single day as if it's your last day on Earth, and ask yourself, "If I die today, what good will I have accomplished?" Don't accept the day; ATTACK IT.

Now, remember - I'm probably the MOST partisan Obama supporter here. And I'm deeply disappointed and more than a little bit troubled by the man's indecisiveness on some key issues. It doesn't matter what you do; all that matters is that you do it.

I'm with you there, too, except that I disagree with that last sentence. Hell, Dumbya "did", and it was certainly far worse than doing nothing!

I also agree with you, DT, that

Quote:
He means well by default, but he's weak, and bends to the pressures of special interests.

and

Quote:
The congress makes the decisions, and they are in the hands of the PTB, as are the parties

Interestingly, my fear of Obama from the start was that he wasn't tested by fire enough (if at all) that he could get anything done that he believed in, because Washington would eat him alive. Sadly, I'm feeling that's true more and more all the time...

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Tuesday, November 24, 2009 9:39 AM

"I wouldn't mind if you found it possible to omit the personal nastiness in debating me. It's unnecessary and rude, but I can only ask and be responsible for my own posts."

Niki, that quote is priceless. I had to post it here.

Welcome the RWED honey.

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Friday, November 27, 2009 2:57 PM

More troop deployment from Obama, when I thought all he wanted to do is end conflict. One more reason that now, more than ever posting topics about frustrating(moronic) political decisions is a lost cause. I just had to post my last two cents worth of nothingness.

Just when you think things couldn't get any worse.

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Tuesday, December 1, 2009 8:10 AM

JAMERON4EVA

Quote:
Originally posted by OPPYH:
This is my last post in the RWED.
{I will reply to responses in this thread)
Being a democrat with different ideas than what Obama is gunning for in health care reform, I can't rightly continue to post in the RWED.

I hate republicans, and the democratic administration is leaving me cold.
SO in a sense I'm politically homeless.

In a perfect world, Al Gore would have won the presidency and our country would be in much better shape today.

But Al Gore believes in a thing called man-bear-pig.

"Mom, he has her chip. He has her."
John Connor,"Born To Run", TSCC EP 2x22

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Tuesday, December 1, 2009 11:13 AM

WULFENSTAR

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg

"More troop deployment from Obama, when I thought all he wanted to do is end conflict. One more reason that now, more than ever posting topics about frustrating(moronic) political decisions is a lost cause. I just had to post my last two cents worth of nothingness.

Just when you think things couldn't get any worse."

lol

awww. You bought into the cult of Obama being the "change-bringer"? The "HOPE"? Don't feel too bad. A lot of people did.

I heard something that made sense to me...

Politicians treat citizens like mushrooms...

They keep us in the dark, and feed us shit.

But, if you can take it, and continue to learn, and become stronger for it.. then you can stand with the rest of us.

There is change coming, REAL change.

When the storm comes, you can stand with the wind, or let it blow you away.

Your choice.

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Tuesday, December 1, 2009 11:50 AM

STORYMARK

Why would one have to strictly identify with either Democrats or Republicans in order to engage in political discussions???

"I thoroughly disapprove of duels. If a man should challenge me, I would take him kindly and forgivingly by the hand and lead him to a quiet place and kill him."

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Tuesday, December 1, 2009 1:42 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by jameron4eva:
Quote:
Originally posted by OPPYH:
This is my last post in the RWED.
{I will reply to responses in this thread)
Being a democrat with different ideas than what Obama is gunning for in health care reform, I can't rightly continue to post in the RWED.

I hate republicans, and the democratic administration is leaving me cold.
SO in a sense I'm politically homeless.

In a perfect world, Al Gore would have won the presidency and our country would be in much better shape today.

But Al Gore believes in a thing called man-bear-pig.

"Mom, he has her chip. He has her."
John Connor,"Born To Run", TSCC EP 2x22

"But he's real, you guys! I'm serial!"

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Tuesday, December 1, 2009 5:06 PM

BLUESUNCOMPANYMAN

Quote:
Originally posted by OPPYH:
I hate republicans, and the democratic administration is leaving me cold.

Support your local Libertarian Party.

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Tuesday, December 1, 2009 7:05 PM