So they passed the bloody thing. Shame on them! by Niki2

REAL WORLD EVENT DISCUSSIONS

So they passed the bloody thing. Shame on them!

POSTED BY: NIKI2
UPDATED: Thursday, December 31, 2009 06:07
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Thursday, December 24, 2009 11:25 AM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Quote:
Unfortunately for your plan, we can't (yet) just round them up, put them in re-education camps until they meet your concept of useful, then ship them where the State needs them.

Geezer, do you HAVE to be such a dick??? Or are you just being trollish for the sheer helluvit?

If our jobs market were to suddenly switch from one thing to another... say, from manufacturing cars to providing information technology... as a result of market forces, you'd be the first one to say they SHOULD be retraining for new skills and moving from Detroit to Silicon Valley. THAT is a "good thing". But if it happens as a result of policy change, it's suddenly a "bad thing"? Is your brain so internally riven that you can't see that you're talking about the same thing but reaching different conclusions, simply because the context has changed???

Quote:
See my response to SignyM. If you consider folks interchangeable units, then the net job loss might not be too great, but having a lot of health insurance employees lose their jobs and a lot of currently unemployed get jobs isn't going to do anything for those legislators who have the big insurance companies in their districts.

Oh, BTW... this kind of information work can be done from home. No moving is necessary.

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Thursday, December 24, 2009 11:38 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...

Well, shoot; everything I was going to reply to Geezer has already been more than adequately covered by Rue and Sig (only with a bit more vehemence than I would have!), so I won't be redunant. The simple fact remains that if there were a public option, people now working in the private health care sector would be able to work for the publicly-provided health care industry, and it wouldn't require moving or being retrained to a very large extent, because health care is needed everywhere and anywhere they can work for the private sector, they would be able to work for the public health care sector, without even needing retraining.

As to legislators becoming more cognizant of expenditures, I've never met or heard of one (despite all the broo-ha-ha put out by the right these days). They're all quite happy to accept any pork thrown (or blackmailed) their way, so where is an example that can be pointed to?

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Thursday, December 24, 2009 12:11 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Quote:
The simple fact remains that if there were a public option, people now working in the private health care sector would be able to work for the publicly-provided health care industry, and it wouldn't require moving or being retrained to a very large extent, because health care is needed everywhere and anywhere they can work for the private sector, they would be able to work for the public health care sector, without even needing retraining.

Thanks Niki for your truly more cogent response. Sometimes I just

when geezer posts!!!

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Thursday, December 24, 2009 2:21 PM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...

I know the problem. Sometimes me too, but sometimes I even agree with him. Go figger!

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Thursday, December 24, 2009 4:44 PM

DREAMTROVE

River,

PN was mostly on the dem side earlier, during the Bush years, but I'd be surprised if he voted for either party.

I'm somewhat curious how you feel about the current admin, IIRC, you supported it initially, but have posted some less than supportive things about it later, somewhere around when Mike soured on the whole thing,

Just curious if you had any thoughts on the situation is all

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Monday, December 28, 2009 5:15 PM

FREMDFIRMA

One thing buried in that horror of a bill somewhere is a little bit I'd like to wrench out and make a seperate thing of it's own - subsidizing the education of doctors in exchange for service within the medicare system, now, one COULD make the case that it's almost indentured servitude, I know - but frankly so are most corporate internships, most of which ain't even paid.

Thing is, the debt-load for an M.D. is so friggin high, plus malpractice insurance (and there's them again, raising the price of everything out of the reach of mere mortals, seems a theme, don't it ?) that in order to break even they have to jack the cost of services to a level I consider pure lunacy.

Since with our current political system enacting a full system change seems a guaranteed disaster, maybe we can nickle and dime the problem to death one piece at a time while the powers that be ain't lookin - but first we gotta kill off this monstrosity.

More and more though, I think the problem boils down to one single word, one single thing, that seems at the root of many of our medical *and* economic troubles.

Insurance.

I defy one to tell me it's not a bloody scam, ever more so when legally mandated - and lemme remind you before you try to justify it that you'd be trying to someone who's been burned by them repeatedly and personally, on several occasions in clear defiance of the law, because no one with the power to do so was willing to call them to heel.

Tell me, what benefit do they offer given that they do not hold up their end of the deal, from the mortgage insurance grinning at me over fresh ink, to Allstate sneering off PIP coverage, to the bank daring me to make them issue the payment coverage in case of injury I had been paying for two years straight...
And let's not even get into medical insurance for someone with the litany of issues I got, mostly DUE to the initial neglect and lack of care caused by insurance chicanery in the first goddamn place, not the least of which was the two providers my employer had, cause they were switchin from one to another at the time, pointed the finger at each other, snickered up their sleeves and NEITHER was ever called to account for it.

You ask me, the whole concept of Insurance is the enemy here.

-F

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Monday, December 28, 2009 9:12 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)

Quote:
Originally posted by Geezer:
Quote:
Originally posted by rue:
Or better yet, after being trained as aides, nurses, laundry operators, housekeepers, PAs, EMTs etc etc that they wouldn't find jobs doing something more USEFUL than shuffing papers ? That they HAVE to keep their paper-shuffling jobs to keep the medical system and even the economy afloat ?

This assumes that the medical industry needs more aides, nurses, etc., that the people and the jobs are in the same places, that the folks have the desire or ability to train for and work those jobs, and that the unemployed out there now aren't already trying to get those jobs.

Unfortunately for your plan, we can't (yet) just round them up, put them in re-education camps until they meet your concept of useful, then ship them where the State needs them.

"Keep the Shiny side up"

How is that any different than what the "free market" has done with manufacturing jobs? I never really noticed you complaining when the auto workers were losing their jobs.

Or is it that you only support re-education camps if the workers pay for the out of their pockets? And you don't mind the idea of people being forced to move to make a living, you just don't bristle at the idea of "the government" telling them where to move in order to do so. Is that it?

So in reality, you don't care a bit for the unemployed, you're just pissed that some government, ANY government, is trying to do anything to help.

Mike

Work is the curse of the Drinking Class.
- Oscar Wilde

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Tuesday, December 29, 2009 2:27 AM

RIVERLOVE

Quote:
Originally posted by dreamtrove:

River,

I'm somewhat curious how you feel about the current admin, IIRC, you supported it initially, but have posted some less than supportive things about it later, somewhere around when Mike soured on the whole thing,

Just curious if you had any thoughts on the situation is all

Dream, I'm afraid you might find my thoughts about Obama and his Administration to be less than flattering. So I'll simply say that the only place for him to go during the next three years in terms of any favorability is up.

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Tuesday, December 29, 2009 3:17 AM

KWICKO

Quote:
Originally posted by Riverlove:
Quote:
Originally posted by dreamtrove:

River,

I'm somewhat curious how you feel about the current admin, IIRC, you supported it initially, but have posted some less than supportive things about it later, somewhere around when Mike soured on the whole thing,

Just curious if you had any thoughts on the situation is all

Dream, I'm afraid you might find my thoughts about Obama and his Administration to be less than flattering. So I'll simply say that the only place for him to go during the next three years in terms of any favorability is up.

Likewise, I'm not quite sure I've "soured on the whole thing". I've been disappointed - sometimes deeply - but it's not as if I regret my vote or wish I'd voted for someone else. That said, I *try* to give my support and best wishes to every incoming administration, and I'm usually quickly disappointed by them. I never cared for Dubya as a governor, but he seemed on track to be a mostly harmless president until the aftermath of 9/11. Still, I was supportive of our early efforts to get Bin Laden, and didn't really begin to lose faith until Tora Bora, when we stood aside and let him waltz away. At that point, I realized we were screwed.

I try to be optimistic, but at heart I could probably best be described as "Anti". I'm going to have problems with whomever is in office. Maybe I'm jaded, but I learnd a long time ago that there's no such thing as perfect when it comes to government.

Mike

Work is the curse of the Drinking Class.
- Oscar Wilde

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Tuesday, December 29, 2009 4:16 AM

GEEZER

Keep the Shiny side up

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
Geezer, do you HAVE to be such a dick??? Or are you just being trollish for the sheer helluvit?

Just responding to Rue in the tone Rue uses.

Quote:
If our jobs market were to suddenly switch from one thing to another... say, from manufacturing cars to providing information technology... as a result of market forces, you'd be the first one to say they SHOULD be retraining for new skills and moving from Detroit to Silicon Valley. THAT is a "good thing". But if it happens as a result of policy change, it's suddenly a "bad thing"?

I have not been talking about my opinion. I've been talking about a legislators possible opinion, and not even all legislators, but some. To Senators and Congresspersons with a bunch of jobs possibly disappearing from their State or District, it :edit: could be viewed as :/edit: a bad thing - both for the economy of their region and for themselves politically.

Quote:
Oh, BTW... this kind of information work can be done from home. No moving is necessary.

Some of it can be done from home, but even organizations which have good flex-work policies feel the need to have some folks in their brick-and-mortar locations. Also, many businesses, for whatever reason, limit or prohibit telework for their employees.

"Keep the Shiny side up"

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Tuesday, December 29, 2009 5:20 AM

DREAMTROVE

Frem,

Speaking as someone who got into medical school but couldn't afford to go, I'm of mixed minds on this. I certainly agree with this:

Quote:

You ask me, the whole concept of Insurance is the enemy here.

I'd also add that there's a protected class element. A doctor whose malpractice case sunk my business, did so because he failed to notice the Jack the Ripper job this other Doc had done to a patient. Well, that doctor just got caught, after butchering patients for 15 years. The hospital at which he worked had come to be known as "The Morgue" and "The Funeral Home" colloquially. Well, turns out some crackerjack had been hacking up women's insides for years, and then sewing them back up, so they could go home and die. His punishment? The same as any police officer who goes all Virginia Tech on the citizenry: He lost his job.

River,

Oh no, there's an infinite abyss of down.

Mike,

I vote for losing candidates as a statement. I oppose the position of president and the federal govt. I don't want to support any administration.

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Tuesday, December 29, 2009 9:45 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...

Oh, gawd yes, DT, the "protected class" thing is putting it very wel1!

Our roommate/friend was in a car accident several years ago. The doctor who put the pins in her hip didn't even get them IN the holes! Result was massive pain and she became unable to work because she couldn't stand long or walk well.

Second surgeon she went to found all this and repaired it; he gave her all the busted parts and said she should sue. Not being that kind of person, she didn't...me, I'd have had his head on a platter! He's probably still butchering people...

I invited her to live with us because things had gotten so bad for her she had no place to live--besides, Michigan in Winter with a bad leg... She loves it here, but was still in pain, and they discovered that was because the plate had cracked! Now it's a tossup--at her age (52), further surgery increases the chance of more breakage down the line, so she's hesitant to even talk to anyone about it. Incredibly strong woman; she walks her dog daily despite the pain, which would have me curled up in fetal position!

THEN she noticed her arm was hurting, and that increased over time. Turns out that first butcher screwed up on THAT one too! Since last January she's been trying to get help for it; she's on medicaid and it took until October to get it. Doctors around here either refused Medicaid or said it was too complex surgery for them. Luckily she took it upon herself to approach UCSF, and they did a good job, I'm so grateful!

HOWEVER, they screwed up too, tho' nothing long-term. She was supposed to have the surgery in September. Day before surgery they called out of the blue and said she had to come in for pre-surgery bloodwork. We hauled it into the City. Lab didn't get bloodwork back until two days later...so no surgery until the next month. Royal screw-up.

THEN, she had told nurse and surgeon about the bad hip; so naturally they took the bone graft from her OTHER hip, leaving her unable to even get out of bed for a couple of days (more hospitalization than necessary), and pain in both hips for quite a while once she did.

Nobody ever apologized for any of this, it's a matter of course that whatever they do to you, it's not their problem, be grateful they "fixed" you and shut up about it.

My husband was struck in a crosswalk in the City years ago. Surgeon screwed up his back surgery. Surgeon he saw afterward said there's no way to fix it. He's stuck with a bad back.

I hear these things again and again, so yes, I vehemently agree, "protected class" fits it to a T. I've no doubt that first asshole who didn't even get the pins in the holes is still butchering people to this day, and may never be stopped. They need to be held accountable...stop laughing!!!

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Tuesday, December 29, 2009 11:51 AM

DREAMTROVE

Niki

Yes, I've heard a number of these. I'm currently in a runaround where I'm in an HMO that won't refer me out of their own system, which doesn't have the tests I need, but one of my sisters has a story much like the one your roommate's. No one will even deal with the disasters of previous operations, leaving metal rods now connected to nothing.

The only acknowledge you will ever get is "We're sorry for your loss." It's like the apology that the wrongfully accused get when they're released. When I got out of my "mental care" I got nothing but insults from the shrinks, as I had to sue for my release. The fact that their experiments, about which I had no choice but to be experimented on, and the amnesia resulting, there was never an apology, or damages, instead, I got a huge bill for $5000 for "care" I never wanted, officially didn't need, and certainly didn't help. Their only comment is that I should re-submit myself for care to the same mad scientists who experimented on me before.

Oh, and an extra special treat. It took legal action to get my own medical records, and when I got them, the doctor whose care I had been placed under had nothing intelligent to say about my initial condition, or any problems caused by the treatments, etc. Just the words "Basket Case" at the top, followed by various instructions to the tune of "Give him the usual."

I read this with some surprise, and then I got it: I was a standard issue "basket case" which meant some sort of unrecoverable loon, and as such, they were free to experiment on me as they saw fit, because they assumed I would never recover, and that my family would never be curious as to what happened to me.

I asked about suing them, based on this, and was essentially told that, while I had a case, it would cost me a fortune up front, and the hospital had nearly infinite financial resources and a strong vested interest in defeating me, as such a case would not only cost them money, it would threaten to discredit them.

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Tuesday, December 29, 2009 3:26 PM

FREMDFIRMA

Quote:
Originally posted by Niki2:
besides, Michigan in Winter with a bad leg...

Oh tell me about it, especially when I gotta apply antibiotics and pad the stump with bandages before going out there, and then after work and dismounting the prosthetic, clean up and debride the bloody mess that results - some days are better than others, but the very word "debridement" is wince inspiring to anyone who knows what it feels like - and I have snapped a couple pins and sheared a plate myself in my time, that is seriously NO fun, nor are bone grafts, especially when they crumble to bits at inopportune moments, at least Bathons work on the skin grafts was something that never caused a problem, even with me ripping out the badly infected staples since they refused to do so without payment up front.

Thankfully Corvera is a zen master of his trade, and the rest of my docs could compete with Herr Frankenstein(1) cause without going into detail it isn't just the leg, and well over 30% of my structure is mechanically replaced or augmented in some way, which I suppose technically makes me a cyborg, leading to many Robocop/Terminator comments from my fellow security goons.

The hospitals I've had to deal with are well aware how I feel about being in one, and since their options are either let me go somewhere I recover better (this is proven fact, from the records, I'll recover twice as quick) or keep me bombed out on pain meds to protect their staff(2), generally they'll let me go - and padding the bill goes nowhere with me cause I itemize the damn thing and keep excellent records besides.

If you ever do need an Ortho Surgeon though, look up Corvera, not only is he very, very good, he's also the only one who supported my perspective that laying in bed was only gonna cause atrophy, infection and pneumonia, and he *never* bought that "you'll never walk again" bullshit the other docs were bent on feeding me.

Sure, it's not exactly pleasant, but every step I take is a victory for me.

-Frem
(1) Ironically, one of the doctors at the first hospital was a Doctor Franklin L Stein, one can imagine the reaction to hearing him be paged...

(2) Look, I don't care if it takes ten minutes to get there, I can reach the damn bathroom myself thanks, and a catheter is decidedly unpleasant especially having had it done to you before while unconscious and leaving you feeling like you were whizzing broken glass for two weeks after, so there was no way in hell I was gonna meekly accept that, and if he wanted to get all *insistent* about it... damn fool is lucky I had to hold on to the overhead rail to reach him, leaving only one hand to lift/choke/shake him with, and should count himself fortunate I didn't break his damn neck.

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Tuesday, December 29, 2009 3:40 PM

DREAMTROVE

Doctor Stein, you are needed in the O.R.
Could Frank Stein please return to operating
Franklin L Stein, you're needed urgently in surgery
Dr. Frankenstein get back here, there's blood everywhere!
Oops. Franklin, I meant.

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Tuesday, December 29, 2009 6:04 PM

JAMERON4EVA

Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko:
I'm not liking the way this is going, but if there IS a bright spot on this backbirth of a bill, it's that now it has to go into a conference committee where the House and Senate bills get reconciled into a single bill which will go back to both houses for a full vote. MAYBE there will be some way to hammer out some better options (the House bill has a public option and no mandate, if I remember correctly).

In the meantime, I doubt I'll be supporting many (or *any*)
Democrats in the mid-terms. Hell, you give 'em an overwhelming majority and a clear mandate, and STILL they manage to fuck it all to hell. So what's the point of letting them keep control of either house?

I've said it before, and I'll say it again: a rubber-stamp Congress does no citizen any good. Better to have a gridlock between Congress and the Executive; anything vital WILL find a way through, and the useless shit and the huge pork bills die a much-deserved and bitter death.

The sweet irony of all this is that the Democrats treated this bill with kid gloves, afraid to get their hands dirty lest they lose reelection. And at the rate it's going, they are all but guaranteed to lose reelection, lose their majorities, and lose their power.

Should have played it like they had nothing to lose, instead of like they had everything to lose. If I were going to be voted out of office anyway, I'd rather have it be for doing the RIGHT thing, instead of for doing nothing at all.

Mike

Work is the curse of the Drinking Class.
- Oscar Wilde

FUCKIN'A! Man! I mean come on, who didn't see the Dems failing in this. They got their heads so far up the creek, that they drowned in it.

First off, the bill. No words to express my outrage at the failure of the Republicans to try a Filibuster. Next, Dems f'd up the bill with their weak minded shit, and their nervousness to do anything. They needed to get their heads out of their asses, and look what they did.

But the biggest failure of all will be the Dems whole economic policy. They started this shit in 2007 when they stole the House. First by comletely stopping anyu bills the Reps put up, and effectively holding the economy hostage. They did this all to take the White House, and when they took the White House, they found out they f'd up bigger than they had planned, and we as the American Sheeple believed them! Now the rubber band is winding back up, and by this time next year, they will lose all the steam they've gained in the last few years. Unfortunantly the Reps will fall victim to it as well, and suffer the same fate. It's the rubber band theory, it goes back and fourth, and it's dragging America from it's former splendor. Not that i'm unAmerican, but this shit has got to stop, and quick. This is exactly what did the Romans, and Athenians in, and the only thing that has saved us thus far is our military. Which is begining to be taken over be the bureaucracy. Eventually we will have another civil war, and we may not recover.

"Mom, he has her chip. He has her."
John Connor,"Born To Run", TSCC EP 2x22

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Wednesday, December 30, 2009 7:26 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...

DT and Frem: You have my deepest sympathy! Yes, those are the kinds of stories we hear regularly, and for people to say the health care system (even leaving out the ins. cos.) needs serious overhaul makes me sick as a result. Not that it's any better anywhere else; Jo had horror stories of the British Mental Health Care System that would make your eyes pop. She spent a lot of years off and on in "those" places...the difference is, she IS truly incurable and four years of living with her was the worst four years of my life, bar none.

But when it comes to mental health care, I won't get into a rant or my post would go on for hours and be unreadable by anyone. It would have so many

and

as to make it totally unreadable. Maybe it already IS

The concept now seems to be "medicate the hell out of them until they stop "acting out", then get rid of them".

Trust me, I've known enough "mentally ill" who've been through what you described and other such things that my fury knows no bounds where "they're" concerned!!

Frem, gawd I'm so sorry! What hell, and I sympathize deeply. As to that doctor: what a horrible thing to name your kid, and the only prayer would be that enough people were scared by his name that they avoid him! Probably not but hey, we're allowed to dream, eh?

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Wednesday, December 30, 2009 7:51 AM

DREAMTROVE

Nik

Nice emoticons.

Re: Britain, I've read about Syd Barrett's experiences, and I believe in Britain, it's worse. Though it's pretty bad here. Having a brother who's a lawyer turned out to be a life saving asset in my case.

I don't envy Frem at all, his story is much worse than my own. My sister has been through a lot of butchery on this level. Sometimes I think we should have ghosts or zombies just so the people who *don't* make it through can come back and extract retribution...

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Thursday, December 31, 2009 6:07 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...

Quote:
Sometimes I think we should have ghosts or zombies just so the people who *don't* make it through can come back and extract retribution...

! So very well said..and don't I wish!

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