REAL WORLD EVENT DISCUSSIONS

Kucinich sells out

POSTED BY: SERGEANTX
UPDATED: Sunday, March 28, 2010 08:20
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Tuesday, March 23, 2010 4:57 PM

FREMDFIRMA



Yeah, but when you're gonna do it that way, you gotta go the for DRAMA, man, go over the top, monologue it, ham it up, chew the fekkin scenery!

That way they take you for a nutter and dismiss you, never taking you seriously, and you're all but invisible cause they've pigeonholed you into a mental category and their minds are not flexible enough to react quickly when it becomes clear you really WERE oh so deadly serious all along.

In short, dude, you need to work on your *delivery*, cause here's how it's DONE, man.



*grins nastily*

-Frem

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Tuesday, March 23, 2010 5:22 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Well, I'm not really one for flashy theatrics, my friend. I prefer to remain behind the curtain.

As for not being taken seriously, I believe I've established my bona fides here for rather a long time: I have said over and over again that nothing I say is completely serious, nor completely a joke. There's snark in the truth of my words, and truth in the snark.

If anyone takes me seriously, they're reading things into me which I've given no reason for them to read. If they don't take me seriously, they underestimate my words at their own peril.

I find it's generally the jester who gets to speak real truth to power, yes?

Besides, the first of the lawsuits have already been filed. I doubt they'll be withdrawn in time. Tick-tock. Time's up.

Who was it who used to say, "I love it when a plan comes together!"








"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence [sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero, Real World Event Discussions


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Wednesday, March 24, 2010 8:55 AM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!


Like all good conversations this one has wandered over many interesting points.

I just wanted to post this from MoveOn, which IMO is one of the reasons Kucinich chose to do what he did:

"But now the same handful of conservative Democrats who killed the public option last year are back to their old obstructionist tricks. Senator Blanche Lincoln of Arkansas says she'll be voting against President Obama's plan, supposedly because there hasn't been a "thorough debate" on it over the past year."

She is only one of several democrats who would NEVER have voted for the public option. The votes just weren't there.

***************************************************************

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Wednesday, March 24, 2010 10:13 AM

CITIZEN


Quote:

Originally posted by mal4prez:

It all depends on the American public being informed rather than gullible. *nervous*


I think we need time to examine that statement for a moment, in the light of the fact that the US is about the only developed country in the world that actually has people, who aren't considered insane, who think there's still a debate between creationism and evolution.

Anyway. No offence guys (ok lots of offence) but how is it, that you, in the states, can take a good idea, and without fail fuck it up beyond all recognition? Most of the world has been working with socialised healthcare systems very well for 50-60 years, you've finally got in on the act, and thought "socialism bad, corporatism better". Really, I'd agree with sarge here, this bill is an unholy abortion of an idea. It's managed to marry the very worst aspects of private medicine, the very worst aspects of socialised medicine, and none of the good sides of either. That's some achievement.

The only thing you guys who are for it can seem to say about it is that "it might lead to something good". That's like having the breaks cease up on you Toyota and when you plough into the lake saying "at least I might be able to get a decent car on insurance". I mean I admire you're ability to look on the bright side, but damn.

And all the while the people most responsible for making this bill as truly bad as it can possibly be, are screaming "see, we told you so!!111!!"

But then that's the far right for ya, ruining things purposefully just so they can say "see, we told you it wouldn't work".

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Wednesday, March 24, 2010 11:12 AM

MAL4PREZ


Quote:

Originally posted by citizen:
The only thing you guys who are for it can seem to say about it is that "it might lead to something good". That's like having the breaks cease up on you Toyota and when you plough into the lake saying "at least I might be able to get a decent car on insurance". I mean I admire you're ability to look on the bright side, but damn.

Um. Not so much. There are definite good things in this bill, as has been discussed:

- poor folk get coverage
- no rescission
- no yearly limit on coverage
- no lifetime limit on coverage
- oversight on raised fees

and I know there's more, but I have to run out the door...

Quote:

And all the while the people most responsible for making this bill as truly bad as it can possibly be, are screaming "see, we told you so!!111!!"

But then that's the far right for ya, ruining things purposefully just so they can say "see, we told you it wouldn't work".



Look, you have a point that a large part of the American population is, more or less, insane. So, given that, why would you imagine we could get a reasonable, ideal bill through Congress? Really, please explain. Because I just don't see it could have been done.

Reality bites.

-----------------------------------------------
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Wednesday, March 24, 2010 11:45 AM

CITIZEN


Quote:

Originally posted by mal4prez:
Um. Not so much. There are definite good things in this bill, as has been discussed:

- poor folk get coverage
- no rescission
- no yearly limit on coverage
- no lifetime limit on coverage
- oversight on raised fees


Which still all sounds like polishing the turd that is "we're going to force you to buy overpriced and poorly administered private healthcare". At the end of the day, it's a bill that forces people to buy private healthcare, and you can be damn sure that the private healthcare companies are going to end up taking the extra wedge and denying the extra care. It's what they do, it's pretty much their entire business model. They'll find a loop hole, or just milk the US Federal government, either way all you've got is an insanely expensive way to just keep the current failing paradigm in place, albeit with a slight expansion of the people getting screwed over by it.

Quote:


Look, you have a point that a large part of the American population is, more or less, insane. So, given that, why would you imagine we could get a reasonable, ideal bill through Congress? Really, please explain. Because I just don't see it could have been done.

Reality bites.


Never said I imagined you would. In the meantime I'm going to keep with the reality of my evil socialist healthcare system that covers 100% of the UK population (as opposed to 93%(?) that this bill covers), for half the GDP cost that your current system (let alone this bill) costs per person.

A cheaper system that costs less, covers more, and outperforms (according to the WHO); the evils of socialism eh...

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Wednesday, March 24, 2010 1:13 PM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Mike, I've never received a PM here, NOR received notification that someone has replied to a post, even tho' I checked both boxes. My e-mail is Nikovich@pacbell.net, you can e-mail me there. I don't know why those functions don't seem to work for me here, but they don't.

I'll check out the link in the meantime, thanx!


"I'm just right. Kinda like the sun rising in the east and the world being round...its not a need its just the way it is." The Delusional "Hero", 3/1/10

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Wednesday, March 24, 2010 1:48 PM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!


Citizen

"... the evils of socialism eh ..."

no, NO, NO ! You have GOT to get it right !

It's not just socialism, it's a faggot foreign commie idea ... And we don't want none of that 'round these parts !

***************************************************************

Silence is consent.

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Wednesday, March 24, 2010 2:11 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

Originally posted by Niki2:
Mike, I've never received a PM here, NOR received notification that someone has replied to a post, even tho' I checked both boxes. My e-mail is Nikovich@pacbell.net, you can e-mail me there. I don't know why those functions don't seem to work for me here, but they don't.

I'll check out the link in the meantime, thanx!



That's a relief, I suppose; I was starting to think maybe it was my deodorant. :)

Sucks that you don't get PMs, though. Or notifications.

My favorite so far is the one on debts and deficits. I'm still working through some of the earlier ones.




"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence [sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero, Real World Event Discussions


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Wednesday, March 24, 2010 3:30 PM

MAL4PREZ


Quote:

Originally posted by citizen:
Quote:

Originally posted by mal4prez:
Um. Not so much. There are definite good things in this bill, as has been discussed:

- poor folk get coverage
- no rescission
- no yearly limit on coverage
- no lifetime limit on coverage
- oversight on raised fees


Which still all sounds like polishing the turd...


When all you've got is a turd, better get with the elbow grease.

Quote:

Quote:


Look, you have a point that a large part of the American population is, more or less, insane. So, given that, why would you imagine we could get a reasonable, ideal bill through Congress? Really, please explain. Because I just don't see it could have been done.


Never said I imagined you would. In the meantime I'm going to keep with the reality of my evil socialist healthcare system that covers 100% of the UK population (as opposed to 93%(?) that this bill covers), for half the GDP cost that your current system (let alone this bill) costs per person.

Yeah, rub it in. Thanks.

But seriously - do you have any suggestions as to what else could have been done? You seem quite aware of the insane idiots we have to get this "socialist" legislation past, and the power the corporations have over our govt. So what else could have been done?

I really do want to know. Not trying to be an ass. (Not to you anyway )


-----------------------------------------------
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Thursday, March 25, 2010 5:30 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Moi aussi. Brits and Canucks seem to be happy to rag on us recently, but I've yet to hear any VIABLE alternatives for what we could have managed to do, given the opposition and the realities.

I'll settle for what we've got and continue to hope down the line we can refine it, with eventually a public option. Maybe that's just how our form of Democracy works; you fight like hell to get compromised shit through, then you clean it up for the next 50 years until you've got it as close to right as you can...

And the UK system isn't all that perfect, either, you know. I've got friends there. AND I've got friends with mental illnesses--I could tell you a whole lot about their Mental Health System which would make your eyes pop out!

To each their own form of "turd" I guess, eh?

Do I gather you're saying nothing at all should have been done, as the alternative?


"I'm just right. Kinda like the sun rising in the east and the world being round...its not a need its just the way it is." The Delusional "Hero", 3/1/10

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Thursday, March 25, 2010 7:28 AM

CITIZEN


Quote:

Originally posted by mal4prez:
Yeah, rub it in. Thanks.

But seriously - do you have any suggestions as to what else could have been done? You seem quite aware of the insane idiots we have to get this "socialist" legislation past, and the power the corporations have over our govt. So what else could have been done?

I really do want to know. Not trying to be an ass. (Not to you anyway )


You should have pushed for a public option, and I don't mean some publicly funded project that is just government paying health insurance costs, more like a trust system, I suppose similar to how the NHS runs GP surgeries. Leave the insurance companies out of it totally, don't discard them, just leave them alone and let them carry on; they'll go the way of the dinosaur anyway when the public system proves it self cheaper and more effective.

What is the argument going to be, since the private healthcare companies would have been completely left alone? "We don't think we can compete"?

Or kick out the religious crazies. That's what we did, put 'em on a ship called the mayflower. :p
Quote:

Originally posted by Niki2:
Moi aussi. Brits and Canucks seem to be happy to rag on us recently, but I've yet to hear any VIABLE alternatives for what we could have managed to do, given the opposition and the realities.


Maybe it's because you keep calling them "Canucks", yank ?

Anyway, it's not like we haven't got a point when we rag on you. What, we can't find it highly amusing that America can't organise it's way out of a paper bag unless we tell you how? Given the usual American superiority complex the rest of the world has to deal with, you've kind of got being laughed at on this issue coming...
Quote:

Originally posted by Niki2:
And the UK system isn't all that perfect, either, you know. I've got friends there. AND I've got friends with mental illnesses--I could tell you a whole lot about their Mental Health System which would make your eyes pop out!


I don't recall saying it was perfect. I have friends in the UK too, a fair few; of course that is hardly surprising since I live here. I have friends in the States as well, including my Ex-Girlfriend who, funnily enough, works for a Hospital in Missouri. I don't think saying there's some failures in the NHS can even begin to argue against what I said, since I never said it was perfect, just vastly superior to the American system. And given that the US Mental Healthcare system is to find a nice cardboard box under a bridge, or execute them if it's Texas, it's hardly a fantastic example.

I know the NHS isn't perfect, but what it does do is cover 100% of people in the UK, for less than half the GDP cost that America's system covers 80%. What we get for that money is a system placed much higher in the WHO rankings, a system that gives us a lower infant mortality and higher life expectancy. Saying the NHS isn't perfect doesn't begin to address a single word of what I said.
Quote:

Originally posted by Niki2:
To each their own form of "turd" I guess, eh?


Except in this instance you're comparing rancid cat turds to an old tin of Shinola. There's a joke in there somewhere.
Quote:

Originally posted by Niki2:
Do I gather you're saying nothing at all should have been done, as the alternative?


Perhaps you could tell me?

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Thursday, March 25, 2010 7:51 AM

MAL4PREZ


Quote:

Originally posted by citizen:
You should have pushed for a public option,

OK - do you seriously think that would have passed? Have you been paying any attention at all? (ETA: though, now that there's momentum, I'm hoping... it may still come out of this process eventually...)

Really, you and Sig are like CEO's with new BMWs telling a starving college student with a barely operational 92 Accord: how can you drive that pathetic thing? You're such a loser for not having something better!!

Hello! The US simply doesn't have the means. Yet. For now, it's the Accord or it's the bus.

So, please explain again how this bill, that barely squeaked by and only with this huge backlash, could have just been magically transformed into a stellar public option deal that put every private insurance company out of business? I know it's fun blowing out the candles and making wishes, but let's go with reality here...


Quote:

Or kick out the religious crazies. That's what we did, put 'em on a ship called the mayflower. :p
Hey - that's a damned good reason to pursue space settlement. Load the Tea Party onto the USS Crazy Mayflower and let them fuck up a different planet... LOL!


Quote:

Saying the NHS isn't perfect doesn't begin to address a single word of what I said.
And saying this health care reform is far from perfect is completely dismissing reality.

Quote:

Except in this instance you're comparing rancid cat turds to an old tin of Shinola. There's a joke in there somewhere.
Something about Siggy and Cit, staring at a bald eagle's ass and waiting for a diamond to come out, then being all shocked when it's just a turd?

Yes, I just called Congress the ass of the bald eagle.


-----------------------------------------------
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Thursday, March 25, 2010 8:15 AM

CITIZEN


Quote:

Originally posted by mal4prez:
OK - do you seriously think that would have passed? Have you been paying any attention at all? (ETA: though, now that there's momentum, I'm hoping... it may still come out of this process eventually...)


I think it would have more chance than the previous bill, and would have had a fighting chance because you're leaving the private companies alone. Add a sweetener like money back for those on private, and played the right way it would have diluted the Limbaughesque (Limbaughesque: from Limbaugh, a giant gaseous turd) rantings to the American middle class.

It's all besides the point anyway. This bill is crap, you really can't dismiss that by going off on a tangent and demanding I come up with the quick fix for all America's problems. This bill is crap, what else you could have done is a different, albeit related, topic.
Quote:

Originally posted by mal4prez:
Really, you and Sig are like CEO's with new BMWs telling a starving college student with a barely operational 92 Accord: how can you drive that pathetic thing? You're such a loser for not having something better!!


I'm not going to speak for Sig, but I wouldn't be seen dead in a BMW.

For me its more along the lines of seeing that really obnoxious guy who's always telling me how great he is at everything, failing spectacularly to organise a piss up at a brewery. So here I am raising a nice cold one and saying "mmm, this beer is nice!"
Quote:

Originally posted by mal4prez:
So, please explain again how this bill, that barely squeaked by and only with this huge backlash, could have just been magically transformed into a stellar public option deal that put every private insurance company out of business? I know it's fun blowing out the candles and making wishes, but let's go with reality here...


I didn't actually say you could have done better, I said this bill is crap. Assuming there's no way at all you could have done better, it doesn't change that the fact that you really need to. I'm not going to concede that a bad bill is good just because you couldn't have done any better.

Quote:

Originally posted by mal4prez:
And saying this health care reform is far from perfect is completely dismissing reality.


I don't think you said what you meant to say. Saying this healthcare reform bill is far from perfect, is only dismissing reality in so far as there should be a very in there somewhere.

Quote:

Originally posted by mal4prez:
Something about Siggy and Cit, staring at a bald eagle's ass and waiting for a diamond to come out, then being all shocked when it's just a turd?


I'm not shocked your government can't organise a piss up in a brewery at all.

Besides I was actually going for a reference to the Jerk.

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Thursday, March 25, 2010 8:22 AM

KANEMAN


Quote:

Originally posted by SignyM:
Maybe he wrung some concessions out of Obama that we don't know about. Because all that pressure on you means that you have a lot of LEVERAGE. Let's hope Kucinich got something out of it... like a commitment to the public option in the Grayson bill, or a "trigger" in the fixit bill.



Yeah, let us hope. Corruption is great is'nt it? Got to admit nothing like transpearance. Change is always good.

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Thursday, March 25, 2010 8:26 AM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

Originally posted by citizen:
Quote:

Originally posted by mal4prez:
Yeah, rub it in. Thanks.

But seriously - do you have any suggestions as to what else could have been done? You seem quite aware of the insane idiots we have to get this "socialist" legislation past, and the power the corporations have over our govt. So what else could have been done?

I really do want to know. Not trying to be an ass. (Not to you anyway )


You should have pushed for a public option, and I don't mean some publicly funded project that is just government paying health insurance costs, more like a trust system, I suppose similar to how the NHS runs GP surgeries. Leave the insurance companies out of it totally, don't discard them, just leave them alone and let them carry on; they'll go the way of the dinosaur anyway when the public system proves it self cheaper and more effective.



Thing is, Cit, there WAS a push for just such a system. Not ENOUGH of a push, but it was there. And the hew and cry that came from the pro-corporatists was that if the insurance industry were actually forced to compete in a free and open market, they'd be run out of business. They said this un-ironically. In other words, they already admitted that a non-profit public option would be the far superior system for everyone EXCEPT the insurance companies. This is what their entire argument hinged upon.

And even with the turd that passed, they STILL insist that this bill downright OUTLAWS private insurance and for-profit healthcare systems.

Quote:


What is the argument going to be, since the private healthcare companies would have been completely left alone? "We don't think we can compete"?



Yes, that was the actual argument. Really.

Quote:


Or kick out the religious crazies. That's what we did, put 'em on a ship called the mayflower. :p



BWAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH!!

I probably should be offended by that, but I just can't seem to get riled about it. Probably because it's too true. :)

Quote:


Quote:

Originally posted by Niki2:
Moi aussi. Brits and Canucks seem to be happy to rag on us recently, but I've yet to hear any VIABLE alternatives for what we could have managed to do, given the opposition and the realities.


Maybe it's because you keep calling them "Canucks", yank ?

Anyway, it's not like we haven't got a point when we rag on you. What, we can't find it highly amusing that America can't organise it's way out of a paper bag unless we tell you how? Given the usual American superiority complex the rest of the world has to deal with, you've kind of got being laughed at on this issue coming...



Again, touché...





"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence [sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero, Real World Event Discussions


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Thursday, March 25, 2010 8:33 AM

KANEMAN


Quote:

Originally posted by Riverlove:
Jongsstraw,
I read your posts and generally like them, but I don't understand why you waste your time trying to play nice with the Liberals here. Every Conservative that was ever here has been down that road before, and everyone has been attacked and cursed at by them in return. I admire your attempt at civility, but they will only continue their partisan ways despite anything you write. Every day, every single day they post biased and hateful posts about Fox News and Republicans. They deny or ignore the same or worse stuff within the Democrat Party. They obviously just cannot live in a world with Fox News around to explain their lies, and explain their many faults. They're all very petty, and blinded by delusional ideology, and it's only a matter of time before you say something here that will have them all at your throat like wild dogs. But good luck though with your Mahatma Ghandi approach. It won't last too long.




I agree 100%. This is one of the truer posts ever written here. However, I would add that they are just one person....they have to be sock-puppets. Really, how many people can have these views in one space in time? Think about it.....

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Thursday, March 25, 2010 8:47 AM

MAL4PREZ


Quote:

Originally posted by citizen:
I think it would have more chance than the previous bill, and would have had a fighting chance because you're leaving the private companies alone.

As Mike said, it was tried, and there was no "leaving alone" of the private companies, not as far as all the rhetoric went. I don't know, it might have passed if the Dems had gotten their shit together and pushed it through right away. (OMG, the continuing analogy to the bald eagle's ass was not intended but is so apt LOL!) I wish that had happened. But it's more likely, given the "herd of cats" that is the Dems, that such an effort would have failed and our trip into the abyss of insurance hell would have continued. Would have gone on until the next Dem president and Dem majority, which might have been a while. Lots of people dead in that time, lots of further power grubbing by the ins. companies.


Quote:

It's all besides the point anyway. This bill is crap, you really can't dismiss that by going off on a tangent and demanding I come up with the quick fix for all America's problems.
No, I'm just wishing more people would get real. You can sit around and whinge about the things you *want* to happen, or you face up to what is possible and what isn't.

As far as I'm concerned, this is not about American superiority. Health care is quite clearly a case of American inferiority, and has been for a while. No surprise there. But if you're so hung up in your chance to crow for a while, go on and have a good ole time. I can see the draw.

But, if you want to talk seriously, I think that given the reality of the situation the bill has several strengths. Clearly, you don't agree. Only time will tell. If you and I are both still posting here a few years from now, and five years from now, and ten years from now, we'll see how it goes.


Quote:

Besides I was actually going for a reference to the Jerk.
With the turd? I don't remember. It's been a loooong time since I saw that... I just remember the scene with "All I need is this mug. This mug and chair. This mug and this chair and yada yada...."



-----------------------------------------------
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Thursday, March 25, 2010 8:49 AM

CITIZEN


Quote:

Originally posted by Kwicko:
Thing is, Cit, there WAS a push for just such a system. Not ENOUGH of a push, but it was there. And the hew and cry that came from the pro-corporatists was that if the insurance industry were actually forced to compete in a free and open market, they'd be run out of business. They said this un-ironically. In other words, they already admitted that a non-profit public option would be the far superior system for everyone EXCEPT the insurance companies. This is what their entire argument hinged upon.

And even with the turd that passed, they STILL insist that this bill downright OUTLAWS private insurance and for-profit healthcare systems.
...
Yes, that was the actual argument. Really.


As I understand it the previous effort didn't completely leave the insurance companies alone. I'm saying in the first release don't change the system at all, just add something along side it.

And I don't think that was their argument, I mean they might have mentioned that in a brief moment of honesty, but if you ask most Americans why they were against it and they'd probably mutter something about Stalin and death panels.

From what I remember the US polls actually have a public health care system as about 50%, so I really don't think there could have been much of a real push if that couldn't be capitalised on.

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Thursday, March 25, 2010 8:52 AM

CITIZEN


Quote:

Originally posted by mal4prez:
Quote:

Besides I was actually going for a reference to the Jerk.
With the turd? I don't remember. It's been a loooong time since I saw that... I just remember the scene with "All I need is this mug. This mug and chair. This mug and this chair and yada yada...."




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Thursday, March 25, 2010 9:29 AM

JONGSSTRAW


Quote:

Originally posted by kaneman:
Quote:

Originally posted by Riverlove:
Jongsstraw,
I read your posts and generally like them, but I don't understand why you waste your time trying to play nice with the Liberals here. Every Conservative that was ever here has been down that road before, and everyone has been attacked and cursed at by them in return. I admire your attempt at civility, but they will only continue their partisan ways despite anything you write. Every day, every single day they post biased and hateful posts about Fox News and Republicans. They deny or ignore the same or worse stuff within the Democrat Party. They obviously just cannot live in a world with Fox News around to explain their lies, and explain their many faults. They're all very petty, and blinded by delusional ideology, and it's only a matter of time before you say something here that will have them all at your throat like wild dogs. But good luck though with your Mahatma Ghandi approach. It won't last too long.




I agree 100%. This is one of the truer posts ever written here. However, I would add that they are just one person....they have to be sock-puppets. Really, how many people can have these views in one space in time? Think about it.....


Kaneman....If all these folks are the same person they must be some damn good actors. I exchange posts with many of them fairly regularly, and I can tell you that I can recognize the subtle differences in their words, tone, syntax, and degree of ideological loyalty. I responded to that post from RL by saying that there is really no other option other than peaceful co-existence, or detente, or peristroika, or hegemy, or whatever you want to call it. You cannot exist in a vacuum, and the fact is the Libs dominate these threads. What good does fighting and antagonizing them do? You'd have to be at your keyboard 24 hours a day to keep up with them if you chose to fight them. And some have tried....and they lost. And I've been there, and I left. But I came back a year ago with a new way...be polite and respectful no matter what. I can still question things they like, and support things they hate.

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Thursday, March 25, 2010 9:34 AM

OUT2THEBLACK




Hell in a handbasket due to FedNotes...Plus , they say Beck is a Liar !

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Thursday, March 25, 2010 9:48 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Sorry this is long; tryi to catch up. I love the Microsoft thing, by the way, Citizen. Hubby got a giggle out of that.

But the argument made is accurate:
Quote:

But it's more likely, given the "herd of cats" that is the Dems, that such an effort would have failed and our trip into the abyss of insurance hell would have continued.
Rue covered it way back in the thread, and that was all there was to say about that, as far as I'm concerned:
Quote:

She is only one of several democrats who would NEVER have voted for the public option. The votes just weren't there.
The public option WAS proposed; the problem is, unlike the Repubs who have a leeeetle bitty tent (getting smaller) where if you're not 100% with them, you're 100% against and they'll kick you out, the Dem tent IS big, and includes the (pardon if I call them goddamned assholes) Blue Dogs. You never would have gotten the herd of cats that are the Dems to agree on a public option, and since they JUST had the number to pass, it was hopeless. Now of course, aside from reconciliation, it's not even possible.

IF they'd gone straight for reconciliation, maybe they could have gotten 50 "cats" herded together. But that's 20/20 hindsight; Obama and the Dems hoped to get some bipartisan support--the hope lasted waaaay too long in the face of what the rest of the country could see, so they were stuck with this.

As far as creationism and us being the only place where it's proponents aren't considered insane, I disagree. First of all, it's only THEY who don't consider themselves insane; everyone else does. Second of all, I got news for 'ya: We're not alone
Quote:

LONDON — After the Sunday service in Westminster Chapel, where worshippers were exhorted to wage "the culture war" in the World War II spirit of Sir Winston Churchill, cabbie James McLean delivered his verdict on Charles Darwin's theory of evolution.

"Evolution is a lie, and it's being taught in schools as fact, and it's leading our kids in the wrong direction," said McLean, chatting outside the chapel. "But now people like Ken Ham are tearing evolution to pieces." McLean is one of a growing number of evangelicals embracing that message — that the true history of the Earth is told in the Bible, not Darwin's The Origin of Species.

Europeans have long viewed the conflict between evolutionists and creationists as primarily an American phenomenon, but it has recently jumped the Atlantic Ocean with skirmishes in Italy, Germany, Poland and, notably, Britain, where Darwin was born and where he published his 1859 classic.

Darwin's defenders are fighting back. In October, the 47-nation Council of Europe, a human rights watchdog, condemned all attempts to bring creationism into Europe's schools. Bible-based theories and "religious dogma" threaten to undercut sound educational practices, it charged.

Schools are increasingly a focal point in this battle for hearts and minds. A British branch of Answers in Genesis has managed to introduce its creationist point of view into science classes at a number of state-supported schools in Britain, said Monty White, the group's chief executive.

"We do go into the schools about 10 to 20 times a year and we do get the students to question what they're being taught about evolution," said White, who founded the British branch seven years ago. "And we leave them a box of books for the library."

Creationism is still a marginal issue here compared with its impact on cultural and political debate in the United States. But the budding fervor is part of a growing embrace of evangelical worship throughout much of Europe. Evangelicals say their ranks are swelling as attendance at traditional churches declines because of revulsion with the hedonism and materialism of modern society.

"People are looking for spirituality," White said in an interview at his office in Leicester, 90 miles north of London. "I think they are fed up with not finding true happiness. They find having a bigger car doesn't make them happy. They get drunk and the next morning they have a hangover. They take drugs but the drugs wear off. But what they find with Christianity is lasting."

Other British organizations have joined the crusade. A group called Truth in Science has sent thousands of unsolicited DVDs to every high school in Britain arguing that mankind is the result of "intelligent design," not Darwinian evolution.

In addition, the AH Trust, a charity, has announced plans to raise money for construction of a Christian theme park in northwest England with a 5,000-seat television studio that would be used for the production of Christian-oriented films. And several TV stations are devoted full-time to Christian themes.

All this activity has lifted spirits at the Westminster Chapel, a 165-year-old evangelical church that is not affiliated with nearby Westminster Abbey, where Darwin is buried.

In the chapel, Rev. Greg Haslam tells the 150 believers that they are in a conflict with secularism that can only be won if they heed Churchill's exhortation and never, ever give up.

"The first thing you have to do is realize we are in a war, and identify the enemy, and learn how to defeat the enemy," he said.

School curricula generally hold that Darwin's theory has been backed up by so many scientific discoveries that it can now be regarded as fact. But Mullins believes creationism also deserves a hearing in the classroom.

"Looking at the evidence, creationism at the least seems a theory worthy of examination," he said. "Personally I think it is true and I think the truth will win out eventually. It's a question of how long it takes."

Terry Sanderson, president of Britain's National Secular Society, a prominent group founded in 1866 to limit the influence of religious leaders, fears the groups advocating a literal interpretation of the Bible are making headway.

"Creationism is creeping into the schools," he said. "There is a constant pressure to get these ideas into the schools."

The trend goes beyond evangelical Christianity. Sanderson said the British government is taking over funding of about 100 Islamic schools even though they teach the Quranic version of creationism. He said the government fear imposing evolution theory on the curriculum lest it be branded as anti-Islamic.

The Council of Europe spoke up last fall after Harun Yahya, a prominent Muslim creationist in Turkey, tried to place his lavishly produced 600-page book, The Atlas of Creation, in public schools in France, Switzerland, Belgium and Spain.

"These trends are very dangerous," said Anne Brasseur, author of the Council of Europe report, in an interview.

Brasseur said recent skirmishes in Italy and Germany illustrate the creationists' tactics. She said Italian schools were ordered to stop teaching evolution when Silvio Berlusconi was prime minister, although the edict seems to have had little impact in practice. In Germany, she said, a state education minister briefly allowed creationism to be taught in biology class.

In some cases, the schools have become the battlegrounds. Richard Dawkins, the Oxford university biologist and author of last year's international best-seller The God Delusion, "frequently lectures students about the marvels of evolution only to find that the students' views have already been shaped by the creationist lobby.

"I think it's so sad that children should be fobbed off with these second-rate myths," he said.

"The theory of evolution is one of the most powerful pieces of scientific thinking ever produced and the evidence for it is overwhelming. I think creationism is pernicious because if you don't know much it sounds kind of plausible and it's easy to come into schools and subvert children."

The group operates a warehouse with $150,000 worth of DVDs, books and comics promoting creationism, but he says he only sends speakers and materials into schools that invite Answers in Genesis to make a presentation.

He says that when he is asked to speak to science classes, he challenges the accuracy of radioactive dating which shows the world to be thousands of millions of years old and says that the Bible is a more accurate description of how mankind began. He personally believes the Earth is between 6,000 and 12,000 years old.

"Usually I find the discussion goes on science, science, and science and then when the lesson is finished one or two students say, 'Can we talk about other things?' and I sit down with them and usually they want to talk about Christianity," he said.

Dawkins feels the effect. He said he is discouraged when he visits schools and gets questions from students who have obviously been influenced by material from Answers in Genesis. "I continually get the same rather stupid points straight from their pamphlets," he said.

White is getting ready for a visit by Ken Ham, who will preach at Westminster Chapel this spring. Meanwhile he is pleased that small groups of creation science advocates now meet regularly in Oxford, Edinburgh, Northampton and other British cities.

http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/2008-02-09-creationismUK_N.htm?csp=
34


Ooops.

No, what we're saying is not entirely "It might lead to something good"...there are many good aspects of it, and we're viewing it as a BEGINNING. Our country works one way, other countries work other ways. Both Medicare and Social Security were bad bills initially; over time they were refined and are still being refined. It's the way it works. And it beats the hell out of how a LOT of other countries work...

And Mal's right, there ARE good aspects of it. He didn't mention:

-young people being kept on their parents' insurance to 26
-high-risk pools for people having been denied coverage
-no denial of coverage for pre-existing conditions
-no being dropped when you get sick
-tax breaks to help businesses buy health insurance for their employees
-subsidies for low-income people to buy insurance

The concept that it's totally an abomination and a "government takeover" is a talking point put forth by the Repubs, despite the fact they PUT FORTH some of those ideas themselves, both in the past and currently. If you want to buy their propaganda whole cloth, we can't stop you. But it's not the truth.

You can't KNOW it's going to be "overpriced and poorly administered private healthcare" until we see how it goes, none of us can. It's a first STEP, not the final destination.

A) Nobody asked you to solve all our problems; we've been discussing one issue we're struggling with, and if you want to diss what's being done, then a VIABLE alternative should be presented;

B) I wasn't saying the NHS isn't perfect to refute that we have problems; I was saying that NO country's healthcare system is perfect, so given we're starting, trying, maybe it's unfair to trash us completely.

Not sure what you meant by saying perhaps I could tell you...? We've discussed that the public option would solve virtually all of the problems this bill is trying to address, and more, but a public option just isn't possible AT THIS TIME. So aside from trashing the first step and saying "we" should have gotten the impossible public option right off the bat, it appears you have no viable alternatives to offer, which leads me to believe you think nothng should have been done rather than this bill. That was my question.
Quote:

I think it would have more chance than the previous bill, and would have had a fighting chance because you're leaving the private companies alone. Add a sweetener like money back for those on private, and played the right way it would have diluted the Limbaughesque (Limbaughesque: from Limbaugh, a giant gaseous turd) rantings to the American middle class.
The public option never had a snowball's chance in hell, we realize that now after what we've watched happen. Americans have always been triggered by the idea of "government takeover", and the Repubs knew JUST how to play that, and they had the help of the racists (conscious and un) who wanted any excuse to be anti-Obama. It's that simple, and I think until you accept that reality, the current bill can't be debated reasonably.
Quote:

I didn't actually say you could have done better, I said this bill is crap. Assuming there's no way at all you could have done better, it doesn't change that the fact that you really need to. I'm not going to concede that a bad bill is good just because you couldn't have done any better.
Nobody says this is a good bill; quite the opposite and you know that. We've said there are good ASPECTS to the bill, and that we couldn't do better AT THIS TIME. You keep going back to the same points, and you keep painting the bill as a completely horrible effort. I think we've explained the other side pretty well, so what should be happening is a discussion of what's good AND bad about the bill and how we can improve it over time, not just trashing our entire country (we're getting the same personal "you" again, with no recognition that in the main, "WE" agree).

As to "Canucks" (did I spell it wrong?), I have had and do have a lot of friends in England and Canada. I call them Brits and Canucks; they call us Yanks...neither side minds in the least. They refer to THEMSELVES that way and I refer to US that way. I don't call the Brits "Limeys" because that WOULD be offensive...I also call my Australian friends Ozzies. So what? What is your point?


"I'm just right. Kinda like the sun rising in the east and the world being round...its not a need its just the way it is." The Delusional "Hero", 3/1/10

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Thursday, March 25, 2010 10:22 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Let's see. If we want to play "you Americans are idiots", we can. Is there any point? ALL governments screw up...during Dumbya's two terms, America got really badly screwed up, nobody is arguing that (well, nobody with any sense). We realize this has hurt how the rest of the world views us, rightfully so in many respects, but the people HERE aren't saying we're superior or infallible, by a long shot.

I'M not arguing America's better than England, Citizen, or than anyone else. If you want to trash us, as I said, that's your right and privilege. But I seem to remember something about "glass houses".

One word: Ireland.

Another, pertaining to a recent issue of our own: Afghanistan.
Quote:

Kabul, 1842. One of the worst mistakes in British history - certainly the worst tactical and military error – was the invasion of Afghanistan in 1839. The British marched in with the newest high technology (cannon), extreme optimism, and almost no understanding of the country we were invading. A ruler we did not approve of was replaced with a puppet we liked much more and all the top brass predicted a walk-over.

Three years later, the Afghan tribes were united in their hatred of the imperialists, the British were besieged and outnumbered, and then attempted to retreat across the Khyber pass in bitter cold with no guarantee of safe passage, under constant attack from the Afghans. An estimated 16,000 people died in the retreat from Kabul of 1842; a lone survivor, Dr William Brydon, reached Jalalabad fort, bringing news of the worst disaster in British imperial history.



From bits and pieces on the web:

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The Establishment of the Church of England - its entanglement with secular power and influence. Over too long a historical period the political/royal supremacy of the established church has created:
a) a sense of smug righteousness, and a lack of self-questioning, in the ruling classes
b) a feeling that dissent, moral exploration and indeed private mysticism were somehow 'unreliable', foreign, subversive and disreputable.

Quote:

Edward III’s initiation of the Hundred Years’ War by making a patently bogus claim to the French throne. It was in the short term militarily disastrous, given the comparative strengths of the two sides, and economically catastrophic. But its most damaging aspect was in poisoning Anglo-French relations for centuries. At the beginning of the 14th century the English aristocracy was outward-looking and French-speaking. As the war progressed, England became marked by national and linguistic chauvinism. A great deal of the ugliest parts of our political culture – populism, xenophobia and hostility to Europe – dates from this terribly misguided venture.
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Henry VIII’s decision to break with Rome over the powers of the King. This plunged Britain into a divisive religious conflict whose effect is still being felt today.
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The partition of India and Pakistan, which had a huge death toll and set up divisions that still have an impact.
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Appeasing Hitler in his early years and allowing him to believe that he could get away with expanding his power.
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The military defeat of Gallipoli, and the failure of Cromwell to find a succeeding principle, his therefore being forced to pass the Protectorship on to his under-qualified son, as well as the dietary decisions of a number of monarchs (lampreys etc).
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Decolonization of India. We British are - because we've been taught this way - far too complacent with this idea that we handled decolonization so much better than everyone else. The truth is, the speed of British withdrawal indirectly cost something in the region of a million lives. I'm not suggesting that we should have held on to India for much longer because as well as being morally unacceptable, it was simply not feasible for the near bankrupt war-ravaged British nation.
These are all offered BY BRITS (hope you don't mind me referring to you as such--if you do, say so and give me an alternative, please). See any similiarities?

Again, I'm NOT saying one is "superior" or "inferior" to the other (I don't happen to ascribe to that old saw, and I think you'd find millions of other Americans don't, either), merely that we may seem like the big bugaboo of this time period, but in others there have been other countries who had their share of massacres, stupid decisions and national and global difficulties.

I'm not defending America, I'm trying to show some perspective. Once again, I think it would be nice if we all viewed each other as INDIVIDUALS who hold opinions which might not be the same as our governments. We all know one another well enough to know that none but a few of us buy our governments' line, and all of our governments have problems. I can't imagine why any of us would choose to blame each other for the mistakes of their respective governments. I personally believe we all TRY; beyond doing what we can, we're human and can't change the bigger things in our countries very much, certainly very quickly.

Do you understand what I'm trying to say?




"I'm just right. Kinda like the sun rising in the east and the world being round...its not a need its just the way it is." The Delusional "Hero", 3/1/10

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Thursday, March 25, 2010 10:45 AM

CITIZEN


Quote:

Originally posted by Niki2:
As far as creationism and us being the only place where it's proponents aren't considered insane, I disagree. First of all, it's only THEY who don't consider themselves insane; everyone else does. Second of all, I got news for 'ya: We're not alone


You're comparing a few crazy talkers no one listens too to the Republican party here. I didn't say there are no creationists out side the US, I said in nowhere else in the world are they taken seriously. American schools are constantly coming under fire for teaching evolution, and some teachers have stopped teaching it for that reason. Doesn't happen anywhere in Europe, or any other developed country from what I've heard.
Quote:

Ooops.

USA today? Ooops indeed.

Quote:

Our country works one way, other countries work other ways.

If by this you mean other countries work...
Quote:


The concept that it's totally an abomination and a "government takeover" is a talking point put forth by the Repubs, despite the fact they PUT FORTH some of those ideas themselves, both in the past and currently. If you want to buy their propaganda whole cloth, we can't stop you. But it's not the truth.


If you want to believe that's what I'm saying go ahead. If at any point you want to address what I actually said, which is that this bill is actually run away corporatism, feel free.
Quote:


You can't KNOW it's going to be "overpriced and poorly administered private healthcare" until we see how it goes, none of us can. It's a first STEP, not the final destination.


Except I can do exactly that, because that's exactly what this bill is. It's forcing people to buy into the exact same system you got now, which is overpriced and poorly administered private healthcare. You can make all the hopeful statements about what might happen some day you want, it doesn't change what it is.
Quote:


A) Nobody asked you to solve all our problems; we've been discussing one issue we're struggling with, and if you want to diss what's being done, then a VIABLE alternative should be presented;


No, that was hyperbole, but given the amount of hyperbole around here there's not much to complain about here. What you did do, and what you sort of admit here, is say I'm not allowed to say it's a crap bill (which it is) without coming up, single handedly and instantly here on an internet forum, a better idea. And when I have a crack at it, rather than actually deal with what I said, I'm called crazy. Have you heard of some things called red herrings and ad hominems? Just asking.

The fact is, to say this bill is crap, I don't need to come up with something better in order to say that.
Quote:


B) I wasn't saying the NHS isn't perfect to refute that we have problems; I was saying that NO country's healthcare system is perfect, so given we're starting, trying, maybe it's unfair to trash us completely.


I never said any countries system is perfect. I said the US is lagging miles behind, and this bill isn't going to improve that. Your statements would seem, on the face of it, to be completely irrelevant.
Quote:


Not sure what you meant by saying perhaps I could tell you...?


Well, I was getting at the idea that you'll probably tell me what I'm saying in a moment, rather than listening. I have to say this post hasn't disappointed in that regard (I'm buying into Republican propaganda? WTF posts are you reading?)
Quote:


The public option never had a snowball's chance in hell, we realize that now after what we've watched happen. Americans have always been triggered by the idea of "government takeover", and the Repubs knew JUST how to play that, and they had the help of the racists (conscious and un) who wanted any excuse to be anti-Obama. It's that simple, and I think until you accept that reality, the current bill can't be debated reasonably.


Yeah, except the polls show it's the preferred option, and frankly the public option was never really tried. Until you engage with that reality I'm not seeing why I should take your statements about reality at face value.
Quote:


Nobody says this is a good bill; quite the opposite and you know that. We've said there are good ASPECTS to the bill, and that we couldn't do better AT THIS TIME. You keep going back to the same points, and you keep painting the bill as a completely horrible effort.


I keep going back to the same points you keep ignoring, yes.
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I think we've explained the other side pretty well,


And I think you're not listening to any other side.
Quote:


so what should be happening is a discussion of what's good AND bad about the bill and how we can improve it over time,


Then why do you keep demanding that I come up with a better bill that can be implemented RIGHT NOW, which effectively prevents the above from happening?
Quote:

not just trashing our entire country (we're getting the same personal "you" again, with no recognition that in the main, "WE" agree).

1) You can be an impersonal pronoun. You as in "America". Or more specifically "The American Government".
2) I get worse every minute of every day here. The difference is I'm being partially tongue in cheek about it. There's a thread on here that says "Britain Sux" right now. Get over it, seriously. Everything I've said here is weak tea, and it's not like you haven't given any back.
Quote:


As to "Canucks" (did I spell it wrong?), I have had and do have a lot of friends in England and Canada. I call them Brits and Canucks; they call us Yanks...neither side minds in the least. They refer to THEMSELVES that way and I refer to US that way. I don't call the Brits "Limeys" because that WOULD be offensive...I also call my Australian friends Ozzies. So what? What is your point?


I wouldn't care about Limeys. Doesn't change that Canucks is actually a national slur, just like Limeys or Yanks. I was, rather gently and jokingly I thought, pointing out the loss of impact a complaint about nationalist jokes are, when you're prefacing it with a nationalist nickname.

--------------------------------------------------

If you play a Microsoft CD backwards you can hear demonic voices. The scary part is that if you play it forwards it installs Windows.

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Thursday, March 25, 2010 10:49 AM

CITIZEN


Quote:

Originally posted by Niki2:
Do you understand what I'm trying to say?


Is it something along the lines of "if you criticise America rightfully about something relevant to this thread, I'll go off on a tangent and drag up everything I can find that's bad about Britain in revenge"?

Any of that is relevant to the topic, how?

Look, this is what I was going for as an underlying thing, clearly it hit you the wrong way:



--------------------------------------------------

If you play a Microsoft CD backwards you can hear demonic voices. The scary part is that if you play it forwards it installs Windows.

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Thursday, March 25, 2010 11:52 AM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

Originally posted by kaneman:
Quote:

Originally posted by Riverlove:
Jongsstraw,
I read your posts and generally like them, but I don't understand why you waste your time trying to play nice with the Liberals here. Every Conservative that was ever here has been down that road before, and everyone has been attacked and cursed at by them in return. I admire your attempt at civility, but they will only continue their partisan ways despite anything you write. Every day, every single day they post biased and hateful posts about Fox News and Republicans. They deny or ignore the same or worse stuff within the Democrat Party. They obviously just cannot live in a world with Fox News around to explain their lies, and explain their many faults. They're all very petty, and blinded by delusional ideology, and it's only a matter of time before you say something here that will have them all at your throat like wild dogs. But good luck though with your Mahatma Ghandi approach. It won't last too long.




I agree 100%. This is one of the truer posts ever written here. However, I would add that they are just one person....they have to be sock-puppets. Really, how many people can have these views in one space in time? Think about it.....




So you're saying you're Hero, AuRaptor, AND BigDamnNobody? That would explain a lot...




"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence [sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero, Real World Event Discussions


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Thursday, March 25, 2010 1:42 PM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


This is getting weird, I feel like I'm stuck in the same kind of loop as with Gino--without the violence stuff--it is disconcerting.

I wasn't saying any of the things you said I was. I was trying to get some perspective into the discussion; the concept that while none of us are totally HAPPY with the bill, it HAS got some good points to it and it IS a first step we've been trying to get our government to make for sixty years.

Yet you take that black and white. I never “demanded” you come up with something which can be put into effect “right now”. I said that if you’re so convinced what’s being done is crap, what would you suggest? I didn’t say it had to be done right now—I’m guessing you assumed that, because of your rejection of our saying we saw it as a first step. It’s not the same thing at all.
Quote:

if you criticise America rightfully about something relevant to this thread, I'll go off on a tangent and drag up everything I can find that's bad about Britain in revenge
That’s so unreasonable, given all I’ve written. There’s no revenge involved; as I SAID, I was trying to bring some perspective. For just one example; you remarked about our “sense of superiority”, yet one of the things I quoted BY an Englishman spoke of your country having the same. I was trying to illustrate that every country makes mistakes, every government does things that are wrong, while you and Gino seem to both be focused on “America Sucks” to the exclusion of all else.

I saw that “Britain Sux” thread—I deliberately didn’t read it because of the title, so please don’t put that on me. You might notice that it got ZERO responses from any of us, either.
Quote:

nowhere else in the world are they taken seriously
Did you actually read the article? I think they’re taken QUITE seriously in some places, and it concerns scientists. The same is true here. WE don’t take them seriously any more than rational people in any other country do, but there are irrational people in every country, and the creationism bug and “return to God” being related to it IS taken seriously in your country.
Quote:

...has managed to introduce its creationist point of view into science classes at a number of state-supported schools in Britain ... We do go into the schools about 10 to 20 times a year and we do get the students to question what they're being taught about evolution ... part of a growing embrace of evangelical worship throughout much of Europe ... Terry Sanderson, president of Britain's National Secular Society, a prominent group founded in 1866 to limit the influence of religious leaders, fears the groups advocating a literal interpretation of the Bible are making headway. "Creationism is creeping into the schools," he said. "There is a constant pressure to get these ideas into the schools." ... Italian schools were ordered to stop teaching evolution when Silvio Berlusconi was prime minister ... frequently lectures students about the marvels of evolution only to find that the students' views have already been shaped by the creationist lobby ... small groups of creation science advocates now meet regularly in Oxford, Edinburgh, Northampton and other British cities
Are you denying this?

Oh, I see, you didn’t like USA Today as the source. Okay—I don’t know what these sources are, but they’re from the UK:
Quote:

The number of people reporting either Young Earth creationism, or ID, at 25% is something like five times as large as the combined Muslim and evangelical population of this country? Twice as many people are confused about what they believe, and only another quarter are convinced of the truth of evolution.

The real problem for public understanding, as anyone knows who has done any science writing, are the millions of people whose position is that they don't know, don't care, and don't want to do either.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/andrewbrown/2009/nov/25/religi
on-creationism
Quote:

Teach both evolution and creationism say 54% of Britons
British Council poll finds UK adults overtake Americans in wanting science teaching in schools to include intelligent design.

More than half of British adults think that intelligent design and creationism should be taught alongside evolution in school science lessons – a proportion higher than in the US. It was found that Britons were almost three times more likely than Egyptians to want creationism and intelligent design to be included in the teaching of evolution.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/science/2009/oct/25/teach-evolution-creation
ism-britons
Quote:

British readers may be reading about Creationism and smugly thinking 'Only in America'. Well, don't be so sure. Emmanuel City Technical College in Gateshead, England, teaches evolution, but specific written advice for teachers suggests that whenever they encounter a suggestion that the Earth is millions or billions of years old, they should be careful to explain the alternative and, quote, 'always preferable' biblical version of events. In short, Creationist teaching is going on in science classes.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/dna/h2g2/alabaster/A734302
Quote:

Three in 10 science teachers believe creationism should be taught in science lessons, according to a new survey. And more than a third (37%) of primary and secondary teachers in general believe that the subject should be taught alongside evolution and the Big Bang theory.

The Ipsos Mori poll of more than 900 primary and secondary teachers in England and Wales found that while nearly half (47%) believe it should not be taught in science lessons, two thirds (65%) agree that creationism should be discussed in schools.

http://www.express.co.uk/posts/view/76915/Third-of-teachers-want-Creat
ionism
Quote:

A new public opinion poll reveals that belief in creationism is widespread throughout Britain.
The London Telegraph reports that more than half of the British public believes Charles Darwin's theory of evolution cannot fully explain life on earth.

According to the survey:

Fifty-one percent agree that evolution is not enough to explain the complex structures of living things and that a designer's hand would be needed at key stages.

Thirty-two percent say they believe God created the world in the past 10,000 years.

http://www.cbn.com/CBNnews/533353.aspx

Is that better? I’m not arguing creationism, I’m saying it’s not considered “insane” in your country either, given you'd said we are the only place on earth where it's not. That’s all.
Quote:

If by this you mean other countries work...
That’s just snide and has nothing to do with the discussion. IS it a discussion, or are you just desirous of negating everything I say? As I said, it seems to be getting as difficult to communicate with you as it was with Gino, absent the call for violence, and it confuses me.

Okay, I see; you said the bill is runaway corporatism. I disagree, and so do others. I see it as attempts to CURB runaway corporatism; the fact that the for-profit health insurance companies put so many millions of dollars into fighting it should show that THEY don’t believe it’s runaway corporatism either. There are alternatives to buying from for-profit insurance companies being set up in the bill, pools for people the companies are denying, and curbs on some of their most egregious practices. It forces them to accept people they don’t want, and more; we’ve LISTED the positives in it, but just as you accuse me of doing, you’re ignoring those entirely and seem bent on saying it’s crap, end of story.

Again you repeated
Quote:

not allowed to say it's a crap bill (which it is) without coming up, single handedly and instantly here on an internet forum, a better idea
again it’s not true. I DISAGREED with you that it’s a crap bill and asked what alternative you would put forth—I never said instantly, I assumed you must have something in mind besides the public option, which isn’t workable at this time. Certainly you’re allowed to say it’s a crap bill—that’s the debate, whether it ENTIRELY is or not.
Quote:

Your statements would seem, on the face of it, to be completely irrelevant.
Why irrelevant? I was trying to refute some of what you said, and your remarks began to sound along the lines of “America sux”, our “superiority complex” and all of that. So I was trying to bring perspective into it by presenting examples which showed Britain has made mistakes along the line, as well.
Quote:

I was getting at the idea that you'll probably tell me what I'm saying in a moment, rather than listening
Oh. That’s unpleasant. I HAVE been listening (reading) and I have attempted to respond to everything you’ve said; why are you not recognizing that? I’m not being snide, I really AM confused.

I said you were buying into Republican propaganda because the points you made are exactly the talking points the Republicans have been putting forth all along: the points that it’s a complete abomination and a government takeover. It’s not a complete abomination, and it’s not a government takeover. Your remark
Quote:

What is the argument going to be, since the private healthcare companies would have been completely left alone? "We don't think we can compete"?
as Mike said, WAS exactly one of the talking points. The idea was that competition in the form of a public option would be cheaper, ergo everyone would flock to it and the insurance companies would die. This is by way of saying I believe you're not completely cognizant of everything that has transpired around this issue.

Remarks like
Quote:

Except I can do exactly that, because that's exactly what this bill is
with regard to saying it’s going to be overpriced and poorly administered is a flat statement of judgment, which is what we’ve been arguing against. Given the government is going to be providing alternatives to private health care, and it IS just the first step (just, as others have mentioned, Medicare and Social Security originally were), you simply can’t know what the future will bring with certainty.

As to the public option, again:
Quote:

Until you engage with that reality I'm not seeing why I should take your statements about reality at face value.
Several of us have explained precisely why the public option was a nonstarter from the beginning. We wanted to BELIEVE it could get traction, but over time we realized that wasn’t possible right now. So how are we supposed to “engage” with something we know will only waste time and money, and get nowhere, just to prove it will get nowhere??

Look at DADT. It’s stupid, pure and simple. It was a ‘tweener solution to a bad policy. Now it’s being reviewed. Prior even to the review, public and political pressure has forced them to say they will back off, they won’t “enforce” DADT for anyone who is outted by a third party. The next step is to abolish it. Can you see the progression? Some things have to be done by STEPS.
Quote:

I think you're not listening to any other side
What other side is there? I’m serious; you say what we’ve got is crap; we’ve listed carefully the things about it that aren’t crap. Your only suggestion is the public option, which isn’t possible at this time for reasons we’ve explained. So what other side is there? I’m serious; I haven’t heard anything but those two things, and am quite open to discussing anything else.

I did not know Canuck was a national slur. Why have none of my Canadian friends mentioned it. They’ve known me over ten years, why wouldn’t they say so if it was offensive? Either way, I won’t use it again; for me it was a friendly diminutive, and I never saw it as different from being called Yank. I’ll take your word for it, because I DON’T want to offend anyone; until now I never knew that. Is "Brit" also a slur, should I not use that either? I want to know.

That’s all; I’ve tried to respond to all your points, but it feels like most of them I’ve already responded to, so to me it feels like you’re the one not listening, or perhaps choosing not to listen. Now I have to break away; once again I have spent too much of my day here (it’s an addiction I guess) so it’s time for dinner.

I have no desire for anything but a friendly discussion or debate. But I’ve tried to be as clear as I can, and others have responded as well, listing things, explaining things, and I don’t feel any of us are getting through. Perhaps you could help me understand why this is...and that’s not snide, I truly am confused and frustrated.

By the way, I loved the Marmite thing...Jo adored it and I ended up with a HUGE jar of it when she left. I actually liked it, but not enough to use it regularly. And I DESPISE the very concept of spray-on cheese..."Velveeta" is bad enough, which some of us call "a cheese-like substance".


"I'm just right. Kinda like the sun rising in the east and the world being round...its not a need its just the way it is." The Delusional "Hero", 3/1/10

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Thursday, March 25, 2010 7:49 PM

MAL4PREZ


Quote:

Originally posted by Niki2:
That’s just snide and has nothing to do with the discussion. IS it a discussion, or are you just desirous of negating everything I say?

Yeah, I noted that both Sig and Cit, despite being more than capable of rational discussion in the past, both came into these threads looking for nothing more than a spat. Sadly, I don't find their posts worth wasting further time on, except to say: it's interesting how this issue has brought ugliness out of otherwise decent people, isn't it?

You're doing well though, Niki, I applaud! It's nice when people actually use logic and reason, rather than jumping on any chance to be all hoity-toity holier-than-thou. As Cit openly admitted, that all he/she is after here.

Regrettable.

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Friday, March 26, 2010 2:12 AM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

Originally posted by mal4prez:
Quote:

Originally posted by Niki2:
That’s just snide and has nothing to do with the discussion. IS it a discussion, or are you just desirous of negating everything I say?

Yeah, I noted that both Sig and Cit, despite being more than capable of rational discussion in the past, both came into these threads looking for nothing more than a spat. Sadly, I don't find their posts worth wasting further time on, except to say: it's interesting how this issue has brought ugliness out of otherwise decent people, isn't it?

You're doing well though, Niki, I applaud! It's nice when people actually use logic and reason, rather than jumping on any chance to be all hoity-toity holier-than-thou. As Cit openly admitted, that all he/she is after here.

Regrettable.

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Hold on a minute, Mal. Cit enjoys a good brawl as much as anyone (myself included), but when you say "Sig", are you talking about SignyM? Because I have to take issue with that; Signy RARELY goes ballistic or comes into a thread spoiling for a fight, and hasn't done so to any degree at all in this thread, as far as I can see (and I was just scrolling up to see what I could find, and looking through well over half the responses here, I could only find one from Signy, and it wasn't particularly inflammatory).






"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence [sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero, Real World Event Discussions


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Friday, March 26, 2010 3:25 AM

MAL4PREZ


Quote:

Originally posted by Kwicko:
Hold on a minute, Mal. Cit enjoys a good brawl as much as anyone (myself included), but when you say "Sig", are you talking about SignyM? Because I have to take issue with that; Signy RARELY goes ballistic or comes into a thread spoiling for a fight, and hasn't done so to any degree at all in this thread, as far as I can see (and I was just scrolling up to see what I could find, and looking through well over half the responses here, I could only find one from Signy, and it wasn't particularly inflammatory).

OK, you've got a point. Let me explain.

What I was thinking of with Signym is the post in the other health care thread: It seems like, when it comes to specifics about how the bill helps or hurts, no one has anything useful to say. This after several of us had posted specifics, about the bill and about how it would affect us personally. There was no reply from signym when I posted a connection to the bill specifics in the CSM. That annoyed me.

That happened shortly before citizen posted: The only thing you guys who are for it can seem to say about it is that "it might lead to something good" which is annoying for exactly the same reason as Signym's post was. (Hey - these two have been accused of being the same person before and denied it believably, but they are uncannily similar sometimes.)

And then citizen took off with all his: "ha-ha! The US sucks!" stuff. Which may or may not be true, but it's certainly not a useful discussion of actual information or issues with the bill, just him getting his rocks off. Responding to that is the real time waster I was referring to.

So you're right Kwicko - I wouldn't have included Signym if I'd looked up his/her history of posts first, and I'm sorry Signym, for calling you hoity-toity. You're certainly not, not that I've seen. (Though you could have read all those other posts before telling people we'd said nothing useful!)


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Friday, March 26, 2010 4:09 AM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Knowing Signy a bit (from this site), I'm guessing that she was aiming that barbed statement a little more to the right of you, if you know what I mean. :)

But I can see why you found it annoying; I wasn't thinking of that other thread, and it's a valid point you made.

At any rate, I think you and Signy are probably quite a bit closer in your outlooks that either of you might believe right now, and I'm sure it will all be water under the bridge soon.

As for Cit, yeah, he does enjoy stirring the pot a bit; I recognize the behavior because I do it as well. And honestly, if you go looking, there certainly are more "Britain Sux!" threads and jabs around here than there are "America Sux!" jabs coming from the UK on this site, so I'm not going to begrudge him tossing a couple verbal grenades our way. We (collective "We") have certainly lobbed plenty of them towards his nation!




"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence [sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero, Real World Event Discussions


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Friday, March 26, 2010 4:49 AM

MAL4PREZ


Quote:

Originally posted by Kwicko:
Knowing Signy a bit (from this site), I'm guessing that she was aiming that barbed statement a little more to the right of you, if you know what I mean. :)

I would have expected that, but the wording was not so. It did surprise me. And I know that signym is generally quite cool, or I would have responded a little more harshly to that post. (Though, it bugged me enough to come out unfairly in this thread. There - my own little bias revealed!)


Quote:

As for Cit, yeah, he does enjoy stirring the pot a bit; I recognize the behavior because I do it as well. And honestly, if you go looking, there certainly are more "Britain Sux!" threads and jabs around here than there are "America Sux!" jabs coming from the UK on this site, so I'm not going to begrudge him tossing a couple verbal grenades our way. We (collective "We") have certainly lobbed plenty of them towards his nation!
Hey - barbs at the US are plenty deserved, and a little BS back and forth is no big to me. But, looking at his posts here, and what Niki and I were trying to wade through in order to communicate with him, there's more goign on than good-natured ribbing.

I have no doubt that I agree with signy and cit more than disagree, and look forward to many good chats in the future. Doesn't mean I can't disagree or call foul.

Besides, I like to alienate as many people as possible. Especially those on my side.


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Friday, March 26, 2010 6:06 AM

CITIZEN


Quote:

Originally posted by mal4prez:
Hey - barbs at the US are plenty deserved, and a little BS back and forth is no big to me. But, looking at his posts here, and what Niki and I were trying to wade through in order to communicate with him, there's more goign on than good-natured ribbing.


Indeed, just a shame you and nikki want to blame me for your personal comments.

But hey, it's obviously Gino and I that have the problem. Then it'll be me Gino and someone else. Then Me, Gino, someone else, and yet another person. Whatever, it's nikki gettin' her knickers in a twist and dragging completely unrelated stuff in for no reason. It's Nikki that's saying "I want to talk about this" and then doing anything but.

It's funny how it's you (that's the personal pronoun that time) and Nikki, that have actually gotten personal, while giving lectures on the subject.

Feel free to throw some more accusations and insults my way won't you, bubbye

--------------------------------------------------

If you play a Microsoft CD backwards you can hear demonic voices. The scary part is that if you play it forwards it installs Windows.

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Friday, March 26, 2010 6:11 AM

MAL4PREZ


I'm really not interested in talking to the bitter and childish. If you want to talk policy issues, I'll be around.

Or, you can just take your posts and go home. Works for others who can't get their way, doesn't it?


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Friday, March 26, 2010 6:15 AM

CITIZEN


Quote:

Feel free to throw some more accusations and insults my way won't you, bubbye

That was quick.
Quote:

Originally posted by mal4prez:
I'm really not interested in talking to the bitter and childish. If you want to talk policy issues, I'll be around.

Or, you can just take your posts and go home. Works for others who can't get their way, doesn't it?


I believe we can place this in the 'ironic' pile.



--------------------------------------------------

If you play a Microsoft CD backwards you can hear demonic voices. The scary part is that if you play it forwards it installs Windows.

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Friday, March 26, 2010 6:24 AM

MAL4PREZ


Quote:

Originally posted by citizen:
Quote:

Originally posted by mal4prez:
Or, you can just take your posts and go home. Works for others who can't get their way, doesn't it?


I believe we can place this in the 'ironic' pile.


So predictable...

No, see, the difference is that I leave my questions *about issues* out there: how do you think, given the state of American politics, a public option could have passed? Do you really believe it wasn't tried? If so, were you alive and aware last summer?

If you want to talk about that, I'm ready to go. If, however, you're only out to point and laugh without any kind of flow of on-topic ideas, I'm really just not interested in you.


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Friday, March 26, 2010 6:41 AM

CITIZEN


Quote:

Originally posted by mal4prez:
So predictable...


Just what I was thinking.
Quote:

Originally posted by mal4prez:
No, see, the difference is that I leave my questions *about issues* out there: how do you think, given the state of American politics, a public option could have passed? Do you really believe it wasn't tried? If so, were you alive and aware last summer?

If you want to talk about that, I'm ready to go. If, however, you're only out to point and laugh without any kind of flow of on-topic ideas, I'm really just not interested in you.


No, see, I have discussed the issue, while you've just got personally insulting, while claiming it's other people getting personally insulting. You claim you've seen more than light hearted ribbing, but that's entirely a fabrication of your own mind. I'm entirely calm and happy, seems it's you and Nikki getting nasty.

Which thread have you been reading, because it's really not this one? I've actually answered everything you've asked already, I'm sorry if you've missed my responses under the cloud of apoplectic rage that I dared to criticise America, but I'm not going to hold myself accountable for it.

See you're still way ahead of me in the personal insults department, so any time you want to actually discuss this issue you can, or you can insult me a few more times and try and claim you're the better person. Certainly how uninterested you are in me is coming through loud and clear by how your last five posts have centred around how much I suck. Yay for on-topic! It's totally up to you.

--------------------------------------------------

If you play a Microsoft CD backwards you can hear demonic voices. The scary part is that if you play it forwards it installs Windows.

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Friday, March 26, 2010 6:51 AM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)



I hate it when Mommy and Daddy fight!!




(And yes, I *AM* just trying to insert a li'l humor here, in the hopes of defusing the situation a bit)

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Friday, March 26, 2010 7:05 AM

MAL4PREZ


Kwicko - and I'm really not upset. I honestly, calmly, and without passion think there's not any point in continuing the discussion that Niki (and I, for a while) had going with Citizen. The point we were both trying to make was never going to get through. And apparently, whatever point he was trying to make was also lost in translation, cause all I got was: "nyah nyah your bill sucks!" (Cit, you really meant something other than that?)

With Gino, I thought there were things to be learned. I tried to pursue them reasonably, with not more than the usual amount of snark. The fact that he couldn't handle my pretty reasonable questions was his own buried stuff coming to light.

Perhaps Cit blames me for what happened with Gino, and that's why he's trying to escalate this? I don't know. Again, I'm really not interested in fighting, or getting into the Rappy style back and forth.

I'm not leaving. Just refusing to engage in that.


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Friday, March 26, 2010 7:19 AM

MAL4PREZ


Quote:

Originally posted by citizen:
See you're still way ahead of me in the personal insults department

Hmm... checking. I did say you were looking for a fight more than anything, and later that you were acting bitter and childish. I hold to that. I'll note that you brought up Gino in the post that seemed the most bitter: "But hey, it's obviously Gino and I that have the problem. Then it'll be me Gino and someone else. Then Me, Gino, someone else, and yet another person."

It does seem an awful lot like you're after me for something that didn't directly involve you. I have nothing against you personally. Perhaps you do against me? If I misinterpret, I apologize. But you must admit, your posts have suggested a bit of a vendetta, in words as well as tone.

In any case, I will not fight you. I will never give in to the dark side!

*shakes head at bad, bad attempt at humor*

I am trying.

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Friday, March 26, 2010 7:34 AM

CITIZEN


Quote:

Originally posted by mal4prez:
Hmm... checking. I did say you were looking for a fight more than anything, and later that you were acting bitter and childish. I hold to that. I'll note that you brought up Gino in the post that seemed the most bitter: "But hey, it's obviously Gino and I that have the problem. Then it'll be me Gino and someone else. Then Me, Gino, someone else, and yet another person."

It does seem an awful lot like you're after me for something that didn't directly involve you. I have nothing against you personally. Perhaps you do against me? If I misinterpret, I apologize. But you must admit, your posts have suggested a bit of a vendetta, in words as well as tone.



Point one:
Nikki brought up Gino, not me.
Point two:
I have no idea what the problem with Gino was. As far as I can see you and Nikki got pissy because I said bad things about the US. Nikki started dragging stuff about Henry the freaking 8th into a thread about American Healthcare, and I'm the one being accused of getting off topic? I was going for light hearted ribbing, it missed the mark, sorry. But I did try to point that out, and neither of you seems willing to drop it.

I mentioned Gino after nikki brought him up and accused me of being just like him, because I'm sitting here scratching my head as to what the hell your problem is. Maybe he's at fault for whatever this incident you're talking about is. Maybe he's scratching his head just like I am.

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Friday, March 26, 2010 8:23 AM

RIVERLOVE


This 'aint fair! All you Liberals fighting each other over nuthin'. C'mon, focus, here's a big bad evil Republican for you to go after. Just do it, you'll feel so much better::: ready?
Obama sux!
Now get to work!

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Friday, March 26, 2010 10:53 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Please don't misrepresent what I've written and start hurling accusations around...or rather, I WISH you wouldn't, I'm beginning to see that asking is fruitless.

I didn't say you were in the same league as Gino, I said it was feeling similar, the way you are quite ready to have a go at the US but consider any reminder that the UK has had it's problems through historyas well "irrelevant".

I posted facts and figures, and the cites they came from. I responded to your questions and statements in depth. My knickers aren't in a twist--even if I wore such things--I just kept trying to repeat my responses and you seem to keep trying to ignore them. I refuted your over-the-top interpretations, like we expected you to solve all of America's problems and that you had to instantly come up with a solution, and your crack that only America doesn't consider creationists insane, etc., etc. You're choosing to ignore that in favor of tossing out unpleasantness.

By the way, it's "Niki"--one "k"--tho' if you want to continue using the other one to get my goat, go right ahead. It's been done before; I only ask once, then accept that the person has no desire to be civil.

I haven't hurled any insults OR accusations that I'm aware of, and if you consider my responses "lectures", then that's how you choose to view them; I view them as replies to your comments, and attempting to show backup for my points. I was taught that's how debating is done.

In response to your “points”

Point one: I brought Gino up because, despite responding to your posts, you seemed to again and again repeat the same things, ignoring the replies, and went on claiming things about our country that ignored the fact that your country has its problems as well, i.e., creationism. Because Gino had done the same thing (and far worse) just recently, it began to FEEL like a similar discussion. Nowhere did I accuse you of being “just like him”. Big difference.

Point two: As I’ve said several times, my intent in posting things Britains had said were problems with your country included some of the things you had said was wrong with America—no, wait, accused America of being/doing—in order to try and bring PERSPECTIVE to the discussion, as in we’re not the only ones with problems we’re trying to fix, with things that are wrong with our governments.

Let’s see, I’ll take the time to go back:

When you first came in, you asked if Kucinich was against the bill and then for it. I don’t know if anyone replied to that, I came in much later. Just to be clear: Kucinich and others wanted a broader bill, and a public option, so yes, they were against the bill where that’s concerned. Eventually he, like us, realized that we had to take it one step at a time, the public option wasn’t going to happen, and if we didn’t take this opportunity, it would probably be a long time before anyone tried again, so he came out in favor of the bill.

Next time you remarked that only America had creationists and didn’t think they were insane. I refuted that in detail. You dismissed it because it was from USAToday, so I posted the same material I found on ENGLISH websites of, I believe, newspapers.

You came back with
Quote:

Anyway. No offence guys (ok lots of offence) but how is it, that you, in the states, can take a good idea, and without fail fuck it up beyond all recognition? Most of the world has been working with socialised healthcare systems very well for 50-60 years, you've finally got in on the act, and thought "socialism bad, corporatism better". Really, I'd agree with sarge here, this bill is an unholy abortion of an idea. It's managed to marry the very worst aspects of private medicine, the very worst aspects of socialised medicine, and none of the good sides of either. That's some achievement.

The only thing you guys who are for it can seem to say about it is that "it might lead to something good". That's like having the breaks cease up on you Toyota and when you plough into the lake saying "at least I might be able to get a decent car on insurance". I mean I admire you're ability to look on the bright side, but damn.

I picked up on the “only” thing we can do is say it might lead to something good. I and others listed the specifics of the good things in the bill.

The crack that we can take a good idea and without fail fuck it up beyond recognition I found fallacious as MANY countries do the same thing. I also tried to explain that things are done differently here—to elucidate on that, I’d have had to look in depth as to how other countries arrived at socialized medicine, how long it took, what stumbling blocks they encountered, etc. I chose not to.

You called our lists of what is good about the bill “polishing the turd” and went on to make some statements that I disagreed with. You were asked what you would propose, and said the public option. You then asked what their argument would be, that it would put them out of business? That WAS exactly the argument, and I said so. You replied to us with
Quote:

it's not like we haven't got a point when we rag on you. What, we can't find it highly amusing that America can't organise it's way out of a paper bag unless we tell you how? Given the usual American superiority complex the rest of the world has to deal with, you've kind of got being laughed at on this issue coming...
We here have been quite vociferous in our disagreement with how this has been handled, but saying we can’t organize our way out of a paper bag unless you tell us how, again, left no room for perspective, which I tried to add later.
Quote:

given that the US Mental Healthcare system is to find a nice cardboard box under a bridge, or execute them if it's Texas
is just plain wrong; there are problems with our mental health system, but no more or less than those with the British one. Different ones, yes, but I’ve had to become pretty intimately knowledgeable about both, and saying what you did is way over the mark.

I asked for clarification because it seemed what you were saying is that nothing should have been done, so I asked for an alternative...you cracked something which confused me, later saying it was by way of saying you supposed I’d answer for you or something. I assume you consider that a funny remark?

You were asked yet again if you thought the public option had a chance in hell...you replied “a public option” yet again, and said we couldn’t
Quote:

dismiss that by going off on a tangent and demanding I come up with the quick fix for all America's problems
Nobody had done either. You said it was like
Quote:

seeing that really obnoxious guy who's always telling me how great he is at everything, failing spectacularly to organise a piss up at a brewery
.

So far, let’s see. We’ve got the ‘usual American superiority complex’, can’t organize our way out of a paper bag unless you tell us how, our mental health system is a cardboard box under a bridge, said we were ‘polishing a turd’, were like an ‘obnoxious guy who fails spectacularly at organizing a piss at a brewery’...but so far nobody’s said anything nasty, personal or otherwise, to you.

You claimed something “wasn’t their argument” or might have been mentioned in a brief moment of honesty. Guessing here you meant the public option, no, it was a BIG argument, said over and over to instill fear in people that they were going to lose their insurance. It was made a big deal of, believe me.

I replied to your remarks and tried to explain why the public option wasn’t pursued and a bit of why we have difficulty passing things in our legislature, especially now with the Republicans putting up a unified wall of “No”. That’s where I quoted the article on creationism in England. Which you rejected. I also tried to explained and listed some of the good aspects of the bill and that we view it as a BEGINNING, which is how Medicare and Social Security got their starts.

I refuted that some of the things you’d called it were Republican propaganda and not valid, clarified that we hadn’t asked you to solve all our problems and that I hadn’t been saying the British system was all bad and that it appeared you had no VIABLE alternative to offer. I made the point that although we’d explained why the public option wasn’t possible right now and that you kept condemning the bill with no reference to the good points, that you seemed to be ignoring all of that.

I posted that I wasn’t saying America was better than England, and posted some examples by British subjects who pointed out a “superiority complex” on your countrymen’s part and some of the mistakes England had made. By way of providing proportion—your comments on America had been pretty blatantly and unqualifiedly nasty. I was hoping to get you to see that not only we fuck up.

You reiterated that nowhere in the world except in America are creationists taken seriously, and that American schools are constantly coming under fire for teaching evolution and some teachers had stopped teaching it as a result—none of which, by the way, is completely untrue. I tried to say all countries work differently, you replied other countries “work”.

You posted “If at any point you want to address what I actually said”—which is precisely what I HAD been doing.
Quote:

What you did do, and what you sort of admit here, is say I'm not allowed to say it's a crap bill (which it is) without coming up, single handedly and instantly here on an internet forum, a better idea. And when I have a crack at it, rather than actually deal with what I said, I'm called crazy. Have you heard of some things called red herrings and ad hominems? Just asking.
Okay, now that is total misrepresentation of anything I said, and getting pretty personal, if you ask me. Equally so
Quote:

Your statements would seem, on the face of it, to be completely irrelevant.
and
Quote:

I was getting at the idea that you'll probably tell me what I'm saying in a moment, rather than listening
You stated that until we engaged with
Quote:

that reality [public option] I'm not seeing why I should take your statements about reality at face value
You claimed
Quote:

I keep going back to the same points you keep ignoring, yes. And I think you're not listening to any other side
, which in actuality is what YOU had been doing, refusing to acknowledge any of the good points listed, refusing to accept that this was just a first step to us, and pushing the public option despite our explaining it wasn’t viable at this time. You asked why I
Quote:

keep demanding that I come up with a better bill that can be implemented RIGHT NOW
which I hadn’t.

You pointed out the “Britain Sux” thread and said “Everything I've said here is weak tea, and it's not like you haven't given any back.” Please point out where I gave any back...I’m not sure what “weak tea” is, so I may not understand what you were saying.

I asked if you could understand what I was saying, and got back
Quote:

Is it something along the lines of "if you criticise America rightfully about something relevant to this thread, I'll go off on a tangent and drag up everything I can find that's bad about Britain in revenge"?
At this point, as I said, “This is getting weird, I feel like I'm stuck in the same kind of loop as with Gino”, meaning I was going around and around with you but you seemed to be ignoring what I was saying. I then responded to all your points, and acknowledged the futility of trying further, and said I had no desire for anything but a friendly debate or discussion.

In the very beginning I thanked you for the Windows joke and at the end remarked that I loved the marmite thing.

You went on to say
Quote:

just a shame you and nikki want to blame me for your personal comments.
But hey, it's obviously Gino and I that have the problem. Then it'll be me Gino and someone else. Then Me, Gino, someone else, and yet another person. Whatever, it's nikki gettin' her knickers in a twist and dragging completely unrelated stuff in for no reason. It's Nikki that's saying "I want to talk about this" and then doing anything but.

It's funny how it's you (that's the personal pronoun that time) and Nikki, that have actually gotten personal, while giving lectures on the subject.

Feel free to throw some more accusations and insults my way won't you, bubbye

then
Quote:

No, see, I have discussed the issue, while you've just got personally insulting, while claiming it's other people getting personally insulting. You claim you've seen more than light hearted ribbing, but that's entirely a fabrication of your own mind. I'm entirely calm and happy, seems it's you and Nikki getting nasty.

Which thread have you been reading, because it's really not this one? I've actually answered everything you've asked already, I'm sorry if you've missed my responses under the cloud of apoplectic rage that I dared to criticise America, but I'm not going to hold myself accountable for it.

and
Quote:

As far as I can see you and Nikki got pissy because I said bad things about the US. Nikki started dragging stuff about Henry the freaking 8th into a thread about American Healthcare, and I'm the one being accused of getting off topic? I was going for light hearted ribbing, it missed the mark, sorry. But I did try to point that out, and neither of you seems willing to drop it.

I mentioned Gino after nikki brought him up and accused me of being just like him, because I'm sitting here scratching my head as to what the hell your problem is. Maybe he's at fault for whatever this incident you're talking about is. Maybe he's scratching his head just like I am.

I’m not responsible for what anyone else might have said, but I’ve covered what I said and what you said in reply...I can find none of what you claimed above in anything I said. But I can damned well find a lot of falsehoods and personal attacks in what you’ve said. Please show me where it is otherwise, or explain to me how you READ it otherwise, because it’s pretty clear to me that you’ve overblown and misrepresented things I said, and I’m wondering WHY?

By the way, Gino's not scratching his head and it wasn't just Gino and I. Numerous people tried to communicate with him, but he made it very clear toward the end that he hates America and Americans and thinks the world should bomb us into submission...then he erased all his threads and disappeared. So, respectfully, please don't go assuming negative things unless you know the facts. Or, as in this case, unless they're real.


"I'm just right. Kinda like the sun rising in the east and the world being round...its not a need its just the way it is." The Delusional "Hero", 3/1/10

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Friday, March 26, 2010 10:08 PM

CITIZEN


*sigh*

QED.


Actions speak louder than words, you can say all you want is a friendly discussion, but when you're fixating on jokes that I've already apologised for, taking my statements out of context, and personally attacking me (whether you feel able to admit this or not) your actions rather dismiss your words.

I note for the record you've still made no attempt to get us on to the subject you claim is the one you actually want discussed.

There are no personal attacks in what I said, really. If you've read them, the personal attacks are not in my post, they're in your head. The fact one of your examples of me personally attacking you, is when I said your statements were irrelevant to the thread, is fair proof of that charge. I've accused you of doing things certainly, things you've actually done. I've noted things I said were meant in jest and even apologised that you didn't get it, and yet here you are still crying and bawling over me being mean to America. You're the one taking this seriously, and you're the one "over-blowing" statements and screaming false accusations.

You're the one that thinks, for some unfathomable reason you won't be dissuaded from, that when someone criticises America's inability to put together a public healthcare system, it's reasonable to drag up any unrelated matter going back hundreds of years. That's not providing perspective, it's throwing a temper-tantrum, a judgement further strengthened by how, after I've stated several times I was joking and even said "sorry it missed it's mark", you're still fixated on it to the exclusion of all else.

There's another recent thread where Mincing made a statement about Europe, I in jest said something about America in response. I'm fairly sure Mincing got the joke, and there was a bit of back and forth between us. Then Kaneman pops up and screamed serious national abuse at me and called me an America hater. You might be less blunt about it and more verbose, but it's basically the same thing you're doing right now. Taking a joke seriously, especially after it's been pointed out as a joke, and dragging Henry the 8th into a discussion about healthcare is not providing perspective, by any reasonable metric.

I've never said America is all bad, nor Britain all good, you read that into my words all on your own. Dragging in these completely unrelated matters is the sort of thing AURaptor does; I'd be willing to bet he thinks he's just providing perspective too.

EDIT:
BTW, nice touch taking my statements out of context, especially the ones responding to Mal. It makes the rose tinted filter of your own responses easier to maintain I guess.

--------------------------------------------------

If you play a Microsoft CD backwards you can hear demonic voices. The scary part is that if you play it forwards it installs Windows.

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Saturday, March 27, 2010 7:12 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Okay, I give up. Circular conversation, and you choose not to acknowledge the fact that you've quite obviously said unpleasant things to and about me, misrepresenting me completely. I get that you're not going to admit to ALL the things you said in your previous post that are lies, and instead are going to keep on insisting I "attacked" you. I REFUTED what you claimed, gave information to disagree, and tried in my way to put things in perspective--that has nothing to do with defending America, it has to do with debating points.

So you think it's irrelevant, fine, I get that you don't accept my reasons. That doesn't change the fact that we HAVE refuted your various claims about the public option and the bill being total crap, and that you HAVE misrepresented me.
Quote:

you've read them, the personal attacks are not in my post, they're in your head.
That's the truth of the matter...nowhere did I 'attack' you, yet you've used words and phrases which are lies and which misrepresent what I actually said.
Quote:

I note for the record you've still made no attempt to get us on to the subject you claim is the one you actually want discussed.
It's BEEN discussed; you ignore our points. Why go in further circles?

To clarify, I thought your "apology" or "joke" or whatever about missing the mark was a snide one, so I ignored it. I accept you may have meant it sincerely since you say so.

It may be that you are lumping me in with Mal in thinking I’ve been attacking you, for I haven’t, yet you said things of me that I never said. I repeat that I’m not responsible for anyone else; I’m responsible only for myself and I’ve consciously not gotten nasty or made personal insults. Again I would ask for specific quotes where you believe I have. For clarification you will no doubt ignore just as you did when I posted it:
Quote:

just a shame you and nikki want to blame me for your personal comments....As far as I can see you and Nikki got pissy....I mentioned Gino after nikki brought him up and accused me of being just like him....you've just got personally insulting you've just got personally insulting....poplectic rage you ... and Nikki, that have actually gotten personal....


None of that is true; once again, I request that you show specific examples of what you claim, rather than making sweeping misrepresentations.
Mal is right, and I should have listened to him:
Quote:

I honestly, calmly, and without passion think there's not any point in continuing the discussion that Niki (and I, for a while) had going with Citizen. The point we were both trying to make was never going to get through. And apparently, whatever point he was trying to make was also lost in translation, cause all I got was: "nyah nyah your bill sucks!" (Cit, you really meant something other than that?)
I shouldn’t have let myself be triggered into trying to explain and respond. You obviously can’t see it.

I’m not wasting further time, while NOT saying you are like Gino, as I originally said, this has long become just as circular a conversation and you are lying about me.

STILL looking for a decent thread that hasn't devolved into personal bullshit, but getting real close to giving up. Is there ANYTHING anyone out there actually wants to discuss???


"I'm just right. Kinda like the sun rising in the east and the world being round...its not a need its just the way it is." The Delusional "Hero", 3/1/10

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Saturday, March 27, 2010 7:56 AM

CITIZEN


Quote:

Originally posted by Niki2:
Okay, I give up. Circular conversation, and you choose not to acknowledge the fact that you've quite obviously said unpleasant things to and about me, misrepresenting me completely.


That's because I haven't. Nor have you managed to quote me. The truth is that you can't quote any of these "unpleasant" things, beyond saying that and hoping no one checks.
Quote:

Originally posted by Niki2:
Quote:

I note for the record you've still made no attempt to get us on to the subject you claim is the one you actually want discussed.
It's BEEN discussed;


What I'm refering to hasn't (there you go trying to misrepresent my statements again). You said you wanted this to move to a discussion of how to move forward on this bill. What YOU have done is fixated on a small number of cherry picked quotes, blown them out of all proportion, claimed I said and done things I have not, and generally sabotaged anything you've claimed to want.
Quote:

Originally posted by Niki2:
you ignore our points.


Actually I've directly responded to most of them, though I have no doubt you missed that given you've been too busy fixating on a small percentage of what I have said.
Quote:

Originally posted by Niki2:
Why go in further circles?


You tell me, you're the one who keeps repeating themselves and fixating on the same thing over and over.
Quote:

Originally posted by Niki2:
It may be that you are lumping me in with Mal in thinking I’ve been attacking you, for I haven’t, yet you said things of me that I never said. I repeat that I’m not responsible for anyone else; I’m responsible only for myself and I’ve consciously not gotten nasty or made personal insults.


No, of course not. You've not misrepresented a word I've said, you've not fixated on a few cherry picked quotes while ignoring most of what I've said. You've not accused me of a bunch of things I haven't, in fact, done. You've not become personally aggressive at all, you've not badgered me, you've not called me a liar, not perfect lil' ol' you.

No doubt you're about to cherry pick more quotes and lie about them:
Quote:

Originally posted by Niki2:
Again I would ask for specific quotes where you believe I have. For clarification you will no doubt ignore just as you did when I posted it:
Quote:

just a shame you and nikki want to blame me for your personal comments....As far as I can see you and Nikki got pissy....I mentioned Gino after nikki brought him up and accused me of being just like him....you've just got personally insulting you've just got personally insulting....poplectic rage you ... and Nikki, that have actually gotten personal....


Well surprise surprise.
Quote:

Originally posted by Niki2:
None of that is true; once again, I request that you show specific examples of what you claim, rather than making sweeping misrepresentations.


What a hypocritical statement to make, given that you've been throwing accusation my way through out, and haven't managed to really back up a single one yet.
Quote:

Originally posted by Niki2:
Mal is right, and I should have listened to him:
...
I shouldn’t have let myself be triggered into trying to explain and respond. You obviously can’t see it.


And obviously neither you nor Mal can see how caustic you've both been throughout, nor how this conversation has gone in the direction YOU wanted it to go in; because despite the number of times I've tried to explain things, you've constantly turned back to your never ending diatribe and cherry picked quotes.
Quote:

Originally posted by Niki2:
I’m not wasting further time, while NOT saying you are like Gino, as I originally said, this has long become just as circular a conversation and you are lying about me.


Maybe I "sound like" gino because you're not talking to me, you're talking to the character you've got in your head. Frankly you've not been speaking to me the entire time here. I know one thing: I'm sick of you repeating my words back at me, and throwing bullshit accusations around, while crowing on about all the lying I'm supposed to be doing.
Quote:

Originally posted by Niki2:
STILL looking for a decent thread that hasn't devolved into personal bullshit, but getting real close to giving up.


Yeah, it's everyone else's fault isn't it? Maybe one day we can live up to your perfect example. That must be the problem! We all wish we were like you, because you're so clearly better than the rest of us, and in frustration we lash out, unable to live up to your lofty example.
Quote:

Originally posted by Niki2:
Is there ANYTHING anyone out there actually wants to discuss???


Quite clearly you don't.

I wish I'd left earlier and let you and Mal spit out your personal tripe. Clearly all your interested in is silencing the worthless non-American who dared to have an opinion. Clearly I should have known my place eh.

--------------------------------------------------

If you play a Microsoft CD backwards you can hear demonic voices. The scary part is that if you play it forwards it installs Windows.

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Saturday, March 27, 2010 8:10 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


That's about as nasty and snide a personal post as I've seen in a while--not counting the baiting that has gone on in other threads. If you truly feel it's not attacking, then there's no hope.
Quote:

You said you wanted this to move to a discussion of how to move forward on this bill
I'm glad you clarified that. I assumed you were saying you wanted to go on trashing the existing bill, which you've already done, and have those of us who disagree explain further why we don't believe as you do. Now that I understand what you meant, I'm willing to engage in that discussion.

I'm not going to deal with the rest of what you wrote, because it IS very intentional personal attacks, whether you can see it or not. It's going nowhere and won't go anywhere because we obviously see two different things in this thread.

So how would you go forward, if you really want to discuss that and can refrain from personal attacks? You may FEEL that I'd been attacking you, but until you started with all the nasty comments, there were no attacks intended on my side. You can believe that or not, I know my own intentions.

So would you like to discuss how to move forward, or not? It's up to you. Maybe if we can move away from the recent devolution of this thread, others will join in. I'm willing to try.


"I'm just right. Kinda like the sun rising in the east and the world being round...its not a need its just the way it is." The Delusional "Hero", 3/1/10

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Saturday, March 27, 2010 8:55 AM

CITIZEN


Quote:

Originally posted by Niki2:
So would you like to discuss how to move forward, or not? It's up to you. Maybe if we can move away from the recent devolution of this thread, others will join in. I'm willing to try.


Yes, but one thing first:
Quote:

Originally posted by Niki2:
You can believe that or not, I know my own intentions.


You know your own intentions, but you're not willing to accept that I know mine? Doesn't seem exactly fair. I would contend I was no more personal or snide than you were.

-------

Anyway. I do not accept that this bill is not corporatism. The explanation is simple, there was collusion between government and Health Insurance companies before in the US, but now that collusion is codified. This isn't like requiring people to buy Car insurance, because people can choose not to have a car, but more because Car Insurance is actually as much about protecting those you might crash into from financial loss. That is, the fundamental difference between Health Insurance and other types of "mandatory" Insurance is that if you don't have it, you're only gambling with yourself.

This might sound like I'm going over old ground, but it's the basis of my next statement. This Bill is about making it compulsory to buy Health Insurance from a private Company. My argument would be that the next step would be to set up a Public Health Insurance Brokerage. The point is that it's not public healthcare, it's just another option for health insurance; but it should be cheaper than the for profit companies. Not much cheaper because American Healthcare is still a private for profit concern, but it's a stepping stone for the argument of Public healthcare being less expensive than private while providing the same level of care.

--------------------------------------------------

If you play a Microsoft CD backwards you can hear demonic voices. The scary part is that if you play it forwards it installs Windows.

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Saturday, March 27, 2010 9:11 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


First: I don't believe I ever said you don't know your own intentions. I said you WROTE unpleasant things once it got personal. If your intentions were half-joking initially, I accept that, but it didn't read that way for the most part.

Intentions aside, I'm still of the opinion that your view might have been slanted regarding me because of exchanges between you and others. That's just a guess, because I was never rude or deliberately personally attacking, tho' it would appear you read it that way.

The remainder of your thread is once again your opinion of the current bill and how bad you think it is and why. If you don't want to discuss how we could go FORWARD, I don't want to go over defending the bill yet again.

If you don't get a reply, it's not that I'm ignoring you. I've been here for hours, I've searched out a few topics I think might interest others, replied to posts, and the huskies are driving me nuts...I HAVE to get them out and do some housework. It doesn't appear this is going anywhere anyway, but I'll check back later.


"I'm just right. Kinda like the sun rising in the east and the world being round...its not a need its just the way it is." The Delusional "Hero", 3/1/10

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