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BRITAIN’S special relationship with the US — forged by Winston Churchill and Franklin Roosevelt in the second world war — no longer exists, says a committee of influential MPs.

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Originally posted by kpo:

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BRITAIN’S special relationship with the US — forged by Winston Churchill and Franklin Roosevelt in the second world war — no longer exists, says a committee of influential MPs.

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And rightly so: that was a special time in history for both nations, but I don't think the countries' cultural ties, beyond sharing a language etc., are quite close enough to warrant the term 'special relationship' in ordinary times.

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Originally posted by GinoBiffaroni:
Now if they manage to get Tony Blair onto the the end of a rope...

We would have a beginning

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Originally posted by citizen:
It doesn't help that it was a relationship only Britain was expected to nurture.

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Originally posted by AURaptor:

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Originally posted by GinoBiffaroni:
Now if they manage to get Tony Blair onto the the end of a rope...

We would have a beginning

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I didn't know the Tea Party folks were so upset at Tony!

wow.


Summer Glau can simply walk into Mordor


Bones: "Don't 'rawr' her!"
Booth: "What? she'rawred' me first."

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Originally posted by GinoBiffaroni:

Don't care about teabaggers at all

Just applaud the beginning

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Originally posted by Niki2:
All I can say is "Huzzah!" This should have happened long ago; their willingness to agree with us and follow us has been almost as bad (or as bad?) as that of the US and Israel, if you make the US the equivalent of the UK and Israel the equivalent of the US.

If all three broke their "special relationships" and treated one another as we treat other countries, the world would be the better for it!

Don't think it's completely true or will hold completely, however. There IS too much of a "special relationship" between us and the UK and Israel and US, and far too long-standing one, that I can imagine it ever being truly broken. Strained, possibly, but the heritages are too closely woven.

As to Dumbya, et. al, behind bars: They HAVEN'T been caught, and that picture will never happen...sadly.

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Originally posted by GinoBiffaroni:
Hey Rappu.... go fuck yourself

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the US needs to be bombed until these and other criminals are either are dead or handed over.

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Originally posted by GinoBiffaroni:

2,974

so what
Fuck you again Rap-Tard

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Originally posted by Niki2:

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the US needs to be bombed until these and other criminals are either are dead or handed over

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Gino, your hatred of America and desire to bomb us has been shown elsewhere, and it's lost you your credibility, unfortunately. If you want so badly to bomb us, there is no reaon for anyone to respond to you or take you seriously. Your ATTITUDE has now been recognized as that of the terrorists, nothing more.

It's very sad; I and others here respected you and listened to what you had to say. That has ended, I'm afraid. You have put yourself in the class with PN and the few other people here who are so into violence and so locked into their ugly beliefs that you have no credibility at all.

One of the saddest things about it is that it's always good here to have voices from other countries, and I happen to KNOW you don't represent the view of most Canadians. I wish we had another Canadian here to speak for your country.

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Originally posted by Niki2:
Whatever happened to the Gino I used to respect and THOUGHT I was able to discuss things with? I wish we could get him back.

Everything you accused me of is a lie, but I've learned not to expect sense out of you...would be nice if you'd go to another thread to spread your venom. Then again, stay in this one; it's easier to ignore your hate-filled, bigoted insanity.

You need help. We can't give it to you.

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Originally posted by Bytemite:
Okay, so before this goes into truly flamefest territory, I think I should try to clear up a misunderstanding that I think is at the heart of this one.

The way America is acting, it is likely to be bombed and attacked. I think we've seen the consequences of our foreign policy, and I think that THIS is all that Gino is pointing out.

Obviously, I think everyone could agree that if there were a peaceful transition from our prominent and presumptuous and self-destructive and DISASTEROUS efforts abroad, less American soldiers would die, other countries would find us less meddlesome. And that is infinitely preferable to being bombed (unfortunately, it may be inevitable).

Killing innocent civilians not so good, no matter who's doing it, two wrongs don't make a right. This is IMO a lot like American caused casualties in Afghanistan. It's unpopular to say, but I'm going to say it. I don't think we were justified in regime change from the Taliban, and I also think we should have agreed to the Taliban's offers to give up Obama and give him to international courts.

But I don't want to get bombed. I don't want ANYONE to get bombed.

EDIT: You know, TECHNICALLY I meant to say Osama there, but despite the typo it might still be a correct assessment of my feelings. Give me three years and I'll know for certain.

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Originally posted by Niki2:Whatever happened to the Gino I used to respect and THOUGHT I was able to discuss things with? I wish we could get him back.

Everything you accused me of is a lie, but I've learned not to expect sense out of you...would be nice if you'd go to another thread to spread your venom. Then again, stay in this one; it's easier to ignore your hate-filled, bigoted insanity.

You need help. We can't give it to you.

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Not only likely, but not a bad thing... It is only when the US is attacked people seem to take any notice as to what is going on...

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Originally posted by kpo:

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Not only likely, but not a bad thing... It is only when the US is attacked people seem to take any notice as to what is going on...

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Plenty of honest and reasonable people have paid attention to America's actions around the world, and many are critical. The view of America as an evil murderous empire comparable to the nazis has been heard by almost all... it's just been rejected.

Heads should roll

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Originally posted by SignyM:
USA invasions have killed real people. Not theoreticals, but real babies, real women, real innocents. Not by the thousands, but by the millions.

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That's just flat out absurd.

It's not even worth debating, it's so absurd.


Summer Glau can simply walk into Mordor


Bones: "Don't 'rawr' her!"
Booth: "What? she'rawred' me first."

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Originally posted by SignyM:
USA invasions have killed real people. Not theoreticals, but real babies, real women, real innocents. Not by the thousands, but by the millions. As Gino said, imagine 3 million people killed here and you might BEGIN to see the impact we've had on the world. Hell, we spend more money on the military than the rest of the world combined. "They" could ALL gang up on us and we'd STILL outspend them! What does that say about us???????

Oh, we've had it SO BAD! A few thousand of us were killed!

Compared to everyone else, we're a bunch of friggin' moronic crybabies. It's all very well and comfortable for us to say "Well, I protested", but fat lot of good it does to the millions dead and those we'll kill in the future.

Unlike Gino, I don't think the answer is to bomb us, because we're still frightfully powerful and dangerous, and might go berserk and do a helluva a lot more damage - not only to the rest of the world (which we apparently don't care a fig about) but also to OURSELVES... there is nothing like an outside enemy to cause a nation to go fascist in a blink.

I think... (she speaks slowly as she thinks) the real tipping point will be economic. We will no longer be able to afford our empire, and our military adventurism.

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USA invasions have killed real people. Not theoreticals, but real babies, real women, real innocents. Not by the thousands, but by the millions.

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Hell, we spend more money on the military than the rest of the world combined. "They" could ALL gang up on us and we'd STILL outspend them! What does that say about us???????

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The US didn't put that powder keg there, and it didn't light it on purpose - folly and incompetence achieved that.

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Originally posted by rue:
"That's why I think all this talk of war crimes and imperial genocide is sad nonsense."

In Iraq the US DID bomb civilians, DID torture prisoners, DID hold family members hostage, and DID kill hundreds of thousands of people ... not to mention DID launch an attack another country by choice. Just 'cause soembody felt like it. I don't know if that amounts to genocide, but it does amount to war crimes.

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Silence is consent.

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Originally posted by rue:
"How many electrical substations could be easily knocked out for weeks killing power to swaths of area."

The government is way ahead of you. There was a story a couple of years ago about a grad student whose thesis was - gee, if I wanted to to create maximum damage, where are the nodes located ? This was for all types of infrastructure - power, communication, water, ground transport etc. Well, the grad student was not allowed to publish or graduate - and the government confiscated the work. Never to be heard of in detail again.

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Silence is consent.

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Originally posted by AURaptor:

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Originally posted by chrisisall:

@ Gino- I'm with ya, dude.

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DID kill hundreds of thousands of people

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The US didn't put that powder keg there, and it didn't light it on purpose - folly and incompetence achieved that.
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Gosh, that must come as quite a comfort to the families of the dead.

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Pretty much agree with Auraptor. I think you are happily blurring wars/concepts in your head Signy. You can't bunch all US foreign wars together and add a tally of civilian casualties from Vietnam, Iraq, Afghanistan, Serbia, Northern France... The morality of each war is different, so be specific.

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Originally posted by AURAPTOR:
Sig

( hate to ask , but wth ... )

If we didn't act, do you think nothing would happen? Would the void that filled the space we don't occupy be filled up w/ peaceful, caring, and freedom loving influences ?

Looking at how other nations run things, I'd rather we influence the issue than others.

Taking us out of the equation doesn't always ensure the shiny happy you're trying to portray.

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Originally posted by antimason:
heres my opinion: only in self defense, in response to an act of aggression, does any nation have the 'right' to go to war. its a principle libertain view to never exert aggression but in direct self-defense. i believe it was the policy for AMerica all along to remain neutral, unless attacked directly. no aid, no allies.. complete neutrality. 'commerce with all, entangling alliances with none' was the early motto of the American founders. it was British common law that introduced the founders to these concepts to begin with! the biblical concept would be that a role model is a more effective influence then a bully.

if, as i personally believe, we are a divinely inspired nation(because of our heritage), then we should grant more faith and confidence to the Lord, who is the ultimate arbitor of justice- and who does infact have some dominion over man. this is my fundemental rule on the marketplace, on human behavior, and on foreign relations. i know athiests and agnostics will disagree on the method, but will generally agree on the outcome. because in the end, freedom of expression, and self determination, ironically are what grease the skids of capitalism.

but specifically.. i notice that liberals are very contemptous about the US relationship with Israel. personally i agree! i think we should keep it 'plutonic.' but why not with everyone(even the EU)? we aid all the Arab nations around Israel, which are fundementally contentious... to what end? we ought not be any more involved with anyone outside what commerce and trade permit us. in that same vein.. why is our Federal Reserve bailing out Greece? why are are we still protecting Germany? why should we have any role in Afghanistan? republicans have taken a lot of flack.. but liberals created this notion of making the world 'safe for democracy'. they would have put is in Darphur if given the chance...

if you have 2 friends, who are fighting with eachother, what happens when you pick sides? you lose a friend. but if you remain neutral, you become a more effective mediator, able to maintain civil relations with both sides.

personally i think thats the foreign/economic policy we should strive for- if you want to live in a truly free society, you have to accept SOME RISK of unforseen circumstances(ie terrorism/unforseen personal calamity). whatever your fear is, let it go, embrace the inevitability of unforseen cicumstance. otherwise, stay out of the way!! only then will the two polar extremes, classic (american)liberals and traditional conservatives find a grey area.

and just to finalize my point.. does it appear, anyways, that a healthy majority of Iranians would rather trade computers and cell phones with the west then weapons? we may not even need sactions. if given enough time, the grassroots uprising will overthrow the current leadership. could it be, that if we just stayed out of the way, things may favorably fall into place?? its a risk that apparently current libs and conservatives, in America, are unwilling to take. but this also extends to policy both foreign and domestic! its a strange parallel.. but neither party will accept any room for divine providence. it's no wonder we have a history of authoritarian idealogues run amok- we dont believe in freedom anymore!!! its pure centralized planning from here on out

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Originally posted by kpo:

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DID kill hundreds of thousands of people

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U.S actions 'killed', or 'led to the death of'? Happily blurring concepts...

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The US didn't put that powder keg there, and it didn't light it on purpose - folly and incompetence achieved that.
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Gosh, that must come as quite a comfort to the families of the dead.

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Err, well why don't you try comforting the families of Iraqis blown up at marketplaces by telling them they should feel no ill will to Al Qaeda - but instead place all that blame on Bush! Tell them that in effect, George W Bush pressed that trigger.

They would find you perverse and stupid.

Heads should roll

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Originally posted by AURAPTOR:
Sig

( hate to ask , but wth ... )

If we didn't act, do you think nothing would happen? Would the void that filled the space we don't occupy be filled up w/ peaceful, caring, and freedom loving influences ?

Looking at how other nations run things, I'd rather we influence the issue than others.

Taking us out of the equation doesn't always ensure the shiny happy you're trying to portray.

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Isn't that EXACTLY what we did try to tell them? And what we continue to try to tell people in Afghanistan and Pakistan? "Hey, don't blame US for that drone attack that killed 47 people in a wedding party!

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Betcha didn't know we've been so busy, huh?

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Originally posted by kpo:

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Isn't that EXACTLY what we did try to tell them? And what we continue to try to tell people in Afghanistan and Pakistan? "Hey, don't blame US for that drone attack that killed 47 people in a wedding party!

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Not in your wildest dreams.

Heads should roll

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If we didn't act, do you think nothing would happen? Would the void that filled the space we don't occupy be filled up w/ peaceful, caring, and freedom loving influences ?

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In other words, a lot of the countries might have wound up looking a lot like Germany or France

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ALL COUNTRIES HAVE DONE BETTER UNDER SOCIALIST RULE. Growth is higher, education and medical care is better, people live longer, huge disparities in wealth are reduced and the average family has a more secure, happier life. So please, don't hurt your little pinhead brain thinking that we somehow kept things from being "worse". WE were worse, and it was all for higher profits. Not "democracy" or "freedom" or any other little fantasy you tell yourself.

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