REAL WORLD EVENT DISCUSSIONS

Rights of Man

POSTED BY: PIRATENEWS
UPDATED: Wednesday, April 14, 2010 04:28
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Tuesday, April 6, 2010 7:01 PM

PIRATENEWS

John Lee, conspiracy therapist at Hollywood award-winner History Channel-mocked SNL-spoofed PirateNew.org wooHOO!!!!!!




"If, from the more wretched parts of the Old World, we look at those which are in an advanced stage of 'improvement', we still find the greedy hand of government thrusting itself into every corner and crevice of industry, and grasping the spoil of the multitude. Invention is continually exercised, to furnish new pretenses for revenues and taxation. It watches prosperity as its prey and permits none to escape without tribute."
-Thomas Paine, Rights of Man, 1791
www.ushistory.org/Paine/rights/


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Wednesday, April 7, 2010 4:13 AM

KRELLEK


at some point it was probably very much the state/government that was the greedy one, but in this present time, maybe atleast in some ways, it is both the government, and some of the big corporations, or am i completely wrong.


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Wednesday, April 7, 2010 6:32 AM

BYTEMITE


Tcha, I call them one and the same now, what with all the corporate lobbyists. Then the government creates "regulations" that kill smaller local business and give the corporations bailouts. Can't tell if it's fascism or corporatocracy, I'm not sure that one even controls the other. I think they're all buddy buddy, politicians and advisers come from the corporate sector, and when they need a job after, go right back.

Then international corporations and governments leaders all get together and talk about how to make the world better... For them. Everyone else is expendable, and are generally being screwed over by the powers that be.

PN is off about a number of things, probably he also doesn't have QUITE everyone who's involved in all this pegged and is blaming people he thinks are convenient. But he's probably right about this: if you hear someone who talks about a "One World Government" or a "New World Order," they're either idealistic, they're being instructed by someone else, or they're the most malevolent unspeakably evil scum on the face of the planet. Also see Henry Kissinger, among others.

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Wednesday, April 7, 2010 8:13 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Kreller, I think you're right on. A more comprehensive outlook on the problem is Byte's
Quote:

Tcha, I call them one and the same now, what with all the corporate lobbyists. Then the government creates "regulations" that kill smaller local business and give the corporations bailouts. Can't tell if it's fascism or corporatocracy, I'm not sure that one even controls the other. I think they're all buddy buddy, politicians and advisers come from the corporate sector, and when they need a job after, go right back.
The two are so entwined it's impossible to separate them.

Election reform!
Quote:

if you hear someone who talks about a "One World Government" or a "New World Order," they're either idealistic, they're being instructed by someone else, or they're the most malevolent unspeakably evil scum on the face of the planet. Also see Henry Kissinger, among others.



"I'm just right. Kinda like the sun rising in the east and the world being round...its not a need its just the way it is." The Delusional "Hero", 3/1/10

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Wednesday, April 7, 2010 9:07 AM

PIRATENEWS

John Lee, conspiracy therapist at Hollywood award-winner History Channel-mocked SNL-spoofed PirateNew.org wooHOO!!!!!!




Al Qaeda Dictator Saddam Hussein Obama Soetoro spent more money in 1 year than all US presidents combinded. "Spend" is defined as giving $30-Trillion in counterfeit 'money' to private banksters with zero accountability, with taxslaves to pay the interest on the debt FOREVER.
Quote:



Benito Mussolini: What is Fascism

Fascism should more properly be called 'corporatism' because it is the merger of state and corporate power.

Fascism conceives of the State as an absolute, in comparison with which all individuals or groups are relative, only to be conceived of in their relation to the State. The Fascist State organizes the nation, but leaves a sufficient margin of liberty to the individual; the latter is deprived of all useless and possibly harmful freedom, but retains what is essential; the deciding power in this question cannot be the individual, but the State alone.

Fascism, the more it considers and observes the future and the development of humanity quite apart from political considerations of the moment, believes neither in the possibility nor the utility of perpetual peace. It thus repudiates the doctrine of Pacifism -- born of a renunciation of the struggle and an act of cowardice in the face of sacrifice. War alone brings up to its highest tension all human energy and puts the stamp of nobility upon the peoples who have courage to meet it. All other trials are substitutes, which never really put men into the position where they have to make the great decision -- the alternative of life or death....

http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/mod/mussolini-fascism.html


Mussolini and mistress tour Italy during World War 2


Il Douchbag


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Wednesday, April 7, 2010 9:10 AM

PIRATENEWS

John Lee, conspiracy therapist at Hollywood award-winner History Channel-mocked SNL-spoofed PirateNew.org wooHOO!!!!!!


Note this particular book is propaganda against Thomas Paine by the British Empire after the Revolutionary War, that shows American, British and French citzens as stupid monkeys:



The British Empire still thinks of US citzens as stupid monkeys. The NWO is the British Empire annexing USA back into the 53-nation British Commonwealth of colonies. Canada is run by the German fascist queen of England.


Future King of England and the British Empire


German Nazi Queen is a 17x Trillionaire of the 53-nation British Empire
USA annexed in 2008 via SPP.gov and 2009 via UN COP15 Hopenhagen Hell Treaty
http://www.whoownstheworld.com/about-the-book/largest-landowner/

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Wednesday, April 7, 2010 11:31 AM

KRELLEK


slightly in jest, and hopefully never seriously, so then shall we begin to be afraid of sending our kids to boarding schools/academies for those of us with kids

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Wednesday, April 7, 2010 11:53 AM

BYTEMITE


Short answer? Yes.

Ask Frem to tell you about the WWASP schools sometime. They take troubled teens, abuse them until they break, then... Well. You're probably aware of stories about places that think they can "cure" homosexuality, and send back stepfordized straight people?

A lot of the people who go to these schools also end up in the military... Some of what's been documented as having been done is very similar to boot camp stuff. Only taken up to eleven.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WWASP
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Help_at_Any_Cost

Quote:

WWASPS has faced widespread allegations of physical and psychological abuse of the teenagers sent into its programs,[2] resulting in a lawsuit filed against the organization in 2006.


Seriously, ask Frem, the stuff these people get up to will make you feel physically ILL.

The Teen Escort Service is a particularly egregious affiliate, that's the arm that actually ABDUCTS kids to steal them away to these camps. They're brutal. They'll shoot kids up full of drugs to make the kids act crazy so nothing they say is admissable in court. They'll even take kids who haven't been enrolled based on reasons like "they looked like they were high." Any kid that stumbles on them, they might take, just to hide what they're up to, and they're protected because they can manage to make the kids look like liars and have access to lawyers and because kids have no real rights until they're 21.

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Wednesday, April 7, 2010 1:54 PM

FREMDFIRMA



Hell, just start here.
http://wiki.fornits.com/index.php?title=Main_Page
Take comfort in this however, most of them programs have been destroyed.

-F

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Thursday, April 8, 2010 4:55 AM

KRELLEK


Yikes!! well that ssounds terrible, how have something gone so terrible wrong, why does some people see homosexyality as a disease, I mean, I am Hetero yes, but have notting against people liking people of there own gender, that is there own choice.

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Thursday, April 8, 2010 5:03 AM

KRELLEK


and how is the world going to react if there one day turn up a child, he/she might not even need to be a genius level kid as River was said to be, but that he/she is able to read minds(if that is actually possible that is, who knows what evolution can end up with)
how many a government would be able to withstand the temptation of haaving a mind reader working for them?(and i am not just thinking of some assasin as most people believe River in firefly was to be made, but something else such a gift could be usable/exploitable

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Thursday, April 8, 2010 5:22 AM

BYTEMITE


Eeeyah, the government's been working on this kind of stuff already, they were trying to create psychics and sleeper agents through chemical regimens and brainwashing. River's experience was... hmm, different than what actually happens, but definitely Joss Whedon was inspired by real world American government experiments through the 1960s and 80s and probably ongoing even now under different program names.

When PN talks about MK Ultra, well, that's also something real that happened. It was a very broad range of study that the program was interested in, so it's hard to tell if PN is correctly identifying actual MK Ultra stuff at times or if it's different related programs. Still, there's MK Ultra, MK Bluebird, and MK Monarch, all very interested in mind control and... odd things.

And, of course, there's Phoenix, which tapped right into these horrifying schools we've told you about to recruit these kids directly into the military as soldiers and assassins.

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Thursday, April 8, 2010 7:49 AM

KRELLEK


well not knowing to much modus operandi of the MK projects, but there has not been any kind of surgeries in the project of the more strange things like mind readers and such has there, but the modus operandi of those other with the drugs and such certainly do not sound like they where willingly taken. and that I find so very shamefull,

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Thursday, April 8, 2010 10:05 AM

LITTLEBIRD


I don't know about surgeries, but electroshock, drugs, hypnotic regressions and trauma related events do seem to have the ability to open a person up to other levels of consciousness. Call it esp, psychic powers, remote viewing or just plain crazy. Makes it hard to function in real life. Lots of "noise". One learns to "try" to keep their mouth shut so as not to creep people out to much.

Yes, very shameful time in the history of this country. And I suspect still going on to one degree or the other.


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Thursday, April 8, 2010 10:17 AM

CHRISISALL


Quote:

Originally posted by Littlebird:

Yes, very shameful time in the history of this country.

Tell that to Charlie McGee.



The laughing Chrisisall


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Thursday, April 8, 2010 12:59 PM

LITTLEBIRD


Burn baby burn.

So, I suppose a small group of survivors could find each other and decide to take on this project of psychic warfare. They could remote view some of the stuff the other side was doing and then get together, using a focused beam of intent, and burn up one small critical component in the system and effectively monkey wrench and shut down certain operations for awhile. stuff like that.

sorry ... idea for sci-fi story ramble. :)

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Thursday, April 8, 2010 1:20 PM

CHRISISALL


I like.


The laughing Chrisisall


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Thursday, April 8, 2010 1:37 PM

PIRATENEWS

John Lee, conspiracy therapist at Hollywood award-winner History Channel-mocked SNL-spoofed PirateNew.org wooHOO!!!!!!


Trivia on Thomas Paine:

Born in England

#1 bestselling author of the 18th Century with Common Sense

Survived a death penalty in France by closing his cell door hiding the mark of "GUILLOTINE TODAY"

Told the French how to invade England

Shunned in USA for being a Deist (God but no Christ) and for saying Freemasons are Druids who worship a Sun God

Not a pussy

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Friday, April 9, 2010 9:04 AM

FREMDFIRMA



Not quite as sci-fi as you'd think.

In our experience, anything even resembling psychic ability seems to all come from the same root, human empathy - prolly why our society is so geared towards crushing it out, and since 1978 I've begun to suspect that mankind is on the verge of a jump in mental/psychological evolution, and tripped over some related research by Thelma Moss and the UCLA team because it indirectly related to some other things I was looking into a couple years later.

I'm not really willing to discuss that, since some of it could out folks still alive and employed and that wouldn't be fair to em, but so far every bit of even halfway decent evidence points right back to human empathy as the root of any power we'd refer to as "psychic" - that's a pretty well known concept even to a lot of the public, Joss plays on it with River Tam, in fact.

Heaven knows I've been accused of it more than once, often as not by would-be witchburners with a religious gripe...

The most recent evidence I've seen personally were a pair of non-related children we'd pulled out of the foster care system, who could project emotional states and concept ideas to each other from across a room, but only if they could *see* each other - and that was discovered by accident as I caught them out trying to get over on me and one of em all of the sudden knowing what I had told the other ten minutes ago in a different room, despite having no chance to communicate whatever, they were a bit perplexed when told "no, everyone can't do that." - I think the lack of preconceptions is one reason why most of this kinda stuff is displayed most commonly on the young.

Anyhows, people aren't lab rats, and we set them up for a "normal" life by negotiating an adoption by someone trustworthy, and far, far away from anyone who might have known them.


As for the judo/akido/monkeywrenching - remember that my core group was originally defectors *from* that kinda stuff, who smelled a rat when we were asked to go to Nicaruaga as 'advisors' and bailed out on them.

We knew how the system worked, and because it is run by folk who are not especially clever, nor creative, being that they work in a system that penalizes both qualities, any program or project of that kinda nature is set up the same way, with the same tricks, to the same standards, even now - and therefore it's every bit as easy as figuring out the radius of a circle from two points on it - like finding the third floor bathroom in a typical office building, when you're working with standard-issue, someone who knows what those standards are knows damn well what and where the weak points of your structure and system are.

As for blowing the computer systems from range, well, that's what polymorphic virus is for, yes ?

However, we *did* do something along the concept line, with a little help from one of my less crackbrained high school science projects...
I'd built a long tube with a bunch of focusing lenses in it and a nice bright light, and it was a pain in the ass to build cause I hadda use aluminum foil to line the tube and it kept crumpling/kinking, which'd cause a hot spot and problems, and the lenses wouldn't stay in place - finally got it solved with some wallpaper glue and used a hi-temp hotglue on the lenses so it'd hold and still have a bit of flex - but in the end I wound up with a not very efficient version of the "martian heat ray" as we called it, based on the same principles of frying ants with a magnifying glass.

Wasn't a laser, just a really focused beam of light, which.. IF you could hold it on target for a bit of a while, and IF you had enough battery to power it (adapted it for a heavy motorcycle battery eventually) AND the target didn't move - yeah, you could set stuff on fire with it, if it was in range.
(this is why I found the wicked lasers "torch" flashlight so damn funny)

And when we wound up with a tricky situation, it came in damn handy, we had a kid to get back, it wasn't one of the more secure or abusive places, and the kid was feeding us intel through a member of the staff we bought off with his aunt-in-laws money - we could do it, but because of her employment and political connections, we could not be *SEEN* doing it cause that'd implicate her, and the bastards had a camera system run by a subcontractor that they didn't have the keys to, you see.

It was a mental health facility, not a hellcamp, and they had decent oversight, it was just a matter of normal teen behavior being considered mental illness and political pressure from the boys father, and if we wanted to do a hit-n-git, we could not waste the time busting the door and trashing the surveillence system, especially without leading to questions of why we mighta wanted to do that.

Couldn't get it from outside neither, hard bars over a wire reinforced glass window, but there *WAS* a window...
And so, the heat ray - we tested it on a broken VCR from about the same range, using one of the windows from the school, since it was the same wire reinforced glass type, and it took about 8-10 minutes, but if you aimed it at the right angle on a top loading VCR, that tape was gonna fry up real nice and probably render the VCR inoperative as well.

So I climbed up there and beamed it till the tape fried, snapped, and started melting the plastic loading drawer top when some nearby paperwork caught up from the heat and the fire alarm and sprinklers went off about a second later... oh, DUH, well, shit then!

So the boys rounded up our target as he came out of the building during the chaotic clusterfuck of an unexpected fire alarm and evacuation, as I jumped from the tree and got the car started, and we were off with none the wiser.

Makes me wonder just how much chaos and confusion I could inflict on them with a modern laser, it does indeed - anyhow, don't blame me, blame Archimedes, cause I stole the idea from him via encylopedia britannica.

-Frem

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Friday, April 9, 2010 11:39 AM

LITTLEBIRD


What are you talking about Frem? Of course it's only sci-fi. :)

Your story is fascinating as always. You dark sparks have really got it going on. lol

The only other spark I've ever known personally started something called New Geometry, working from some of the ideas of Pavilta. Psychic Discoveries behind the Iron Curtain Chap. 28. Talk about falling down the rabbit hole.

He created a design for a psychic generator. Lot's of fraking outside interference while involved with that group. jeez...

http://www.midcoast.com/~michael1/Designs_for_Generators.htm

Lot's more in depth understanding by reading his book listed on the site.

Now I gotta go have another nervous breakdown after talking about this and disappear from the site for a month or so. lol

Also, Thomas Paine is fearless!

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Friday, April 9, 2010 12:15 PM

KIRKULES


Quote:

Originally posted by Fremdfirma:

In our experience, anything even resembling psychic ability seems to all come from the same root, human empathy - prolly why our society is so geared towards crushing it out, and since 1978 I've begun to suspect that mankind is on the verge of a jump in mental/psychological evolution, and tripped over some related research by Thelma Moss and the UCLA team because it indirectly related to some other things I was looking into a couple years later.
-Frem


I think you’re on to something here Frem. My mother always believed that empathy was a underestimated factor in the power of the human mind. She actually wrote her first PHD thesis on the effect of the empathy of doctors on the outcomes of common surgeries. It was rejected by her academic advisor as to controversial so she changed the subject to something more generic. I’ve always considered myself to be very empathic, but it gives me no special power other then the ability to spot a sociopath others seem unable to detect. I get an instant unexplained hatred of some on first contact that more often than not becomes justified upon gaining further knowledge about that person.
Just in case you were wondering my first impression of you was a positive one, and I don’t get the impression that there are any sociopaths currently posting here.

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Friday, April 9, 2010 1:51 PM

LITTLEBIRD


That must of been very discouraging to your mother to have had her entire thesis rejected. It sounds fascinating. I hope she went on to find a nitch where she could apply some of her empathic abilities in her professional life.

Glad to hear there are no sociopaths posting on the list.

I'm torn on psychic abilities arising entirely from human empathy though. I've met, and heard of, some psychics who seemed very evil, cold, and self centered to me. I need to examine this subject more.

That said, I agree that human empathy and understanding can work miracles.

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Friday, April 9, 2010 3:18 PM

FREMDFIRMA



I think your mothers thesis was dead bang on target, just that no one wants to much admit it - as much medical workover as I have had, it's proven fact that no matter how bad off I am, if you let me go back to my lair my recovery will be on average 40% faster than expected, and I suspect if you consider the doctors involved (Burgess vs Corvera, for example) the ones that were more humane people not only did a better job, but also had influence on that.

As for your first impression, I may be an asshole, bad tempered and ruthless to boot, but most of that is rooted in that bein nice won't get it done, and the bad habits of fighting a brawl in which the tactics have changed so much my methods barely apply - which is why I handed things over to Justin, cause stupid I am not.

As for empathy and detection, you gotta remember my ability to connect with humans is very weak, so muted that it's barely there, and I think because of this, and the struggle to preserve and amplify what little there is has lead to not only a better understanding of it's importance in our lives, but also the ability to resist a lot of the ill effects from dealing with seriously screwed up people, cause their emotional state doesn't create that feedback loop which causes secondary trauma as there's so little for it to bounce off of.

I can connect with animals to a degree so strong it's freaky though, so there is that.

As for some of your impressions, Lil Birdie, remember that someone with real talent can indeed fake out people that way, the same way I play to a charicature of Evil Overlord so well, and there's a certain tendancy amongst those folk toward arrogance - just this past week I kinda displayed a lil bit of that myself...
"Look lady, this whole stinkin planet is just a puny muddy speck in some back corner of the universe amongst the dust bunnies of creation and all of human existence a mere eyeblink moment in time, so with that in perspective, just how important do you think your little problem really is, eh ?"

And past that, yes, there is a dark side to it, just as someone with monetary or political power can use or misuse it on a scale going from one moral end to the other, so too can anyone with the ability to read or manipulate people, so you're going to have that, but that end of it... no, I don't think I wanna discuss it, it's one of them things that even with evidence in hand, comes off as too strange for most folk to take seriously, and on top of that it's one of them issues that just knowin the gory details wouldn't do ones mental health any good at all.

-Frem

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Friday, April 9, 2010 5:34 PM

ANTIMASON


Quote:

Originally posted by Niki2:
The two are so entwined it's impossible to separate them.



i hear a lot of people suggest term limits as a solution, but the most immediate step i can think of is redefine the role of government! if we want government to regulate every aspect of our lives, purchases, decisions etc.. then we will never close the door to lobbying

however, if we limit governments role, to something more benign, not intrusive or interjective.. just as the founders contended.. then the lobbyists wouldnt have this venue for collusion. but itll never happen, unless we free ourselves of the bondage, or oversight(less hypberbolic), of government. am i wrong?

for example, a law was passed to outlaw traditional edison style bulbs, in favor of the new(coincidentally more expensive) 'energy efficient' flourescents. well who lobbyed for the laws passage? well.. non other then GE and sylvania. how fortunate, to have a law passed that is likely to increase a companys profits.

the real question is, why is it governments role to regulate such a purchase? in a real free market, the consumer would decide what purchase is best for him/herself. why am i being forced to buy a more expensive product? this is my point! get government out of our lives! and the lobbying becomes futile- government loses the authority


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Friday, April 9, 2010 5:50 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:


for example, a law was passed to outlaw traditional edison style bulbs, in favor of the new(coincidentally more expensive) 'energy efficient' flourescents. well who lobbyed for the laws passage? well.. non other then GE and sylvania. how fortunate, to have a law passed that is likely to increase a companys profits.

the real question is, why is it governments role to regulate such a purchase? in a real free market, the consumer would decide what purchase is best for him/herself. why am i being forced to buy a more expensive product? this is my point! get government out of our lives! and the lobbying becomes futile- government loses the authority



Tricky part is, where do you draw the line? You want government "out of our lives" - so let's say a "free" market decides to offer you a car with no seatbelts, no antilock brakes, no airbags, no crumple zones, no safety features whatsoever - and you put your family in it. Is it YOUR right to put their lives in danger?

And if you say that that could never happen, ask yourself WHY that wouldn't happen.

So WHERE do you want the government "out of our lives"? EVERYWHERE? Just SOMEWHERE? Who gets to decide what's important to their family's protection? You? You want less regulations - does that mean less regulation in ALL areas? Can I pollute your streams, dump carcinogens in your drinking water? If not, WHY not? (Don't say because it's illegal, because if the government is out of your life, there are no laws regarding these kinds of things!)

Like the Tea Party people, you say things that SOUND good, but you get bogged down and lost when it comes to exact specifics. Name me exactly WHICH laws and regulations you'd like to do away with. "All of 'em" isn't a valid answer, because we already know you're not any kind of anarchist. :)




"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence [sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero, Real World Event Discussions


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Friday, April 9, 2010 11:50 PM

HKCAVALIER


Quote:

Originally posted by Littlebird:
I'm torn on psychic abilities arising entirely from human empathy though. I've met, and heard of, some psychics who seemed very evil, cold, and self centered to me. I need to examine this subject more.

That said, I agree that human empathy and understanding can work miracles.

I'm always so excited when threads veer off thisaway. There's so much to talk about! Frem and I must be brothers from another mother or something.

**WARNING: Woo-woo Alert!**

Lemme work up an answer for you. Empathy is innate. It's in all living things to some degree.

Thing about people is, we don't have to be integrated to function. Disintegration starts with the split between the conscious and the subconscious. A lot of what empaths/sensitives/psychics do is simply access some portion of the vast stores of subconscious knowledge consciously.

Think of empathy as a link between your subconscious and the subconscious of another. Everyone is linked in this way, but sensitives have conscious access to this material. Conscious love/empathy strengthens the connection, but the connection is there regardless of how loving we think we are--I mean, empathy IS the connection, and the connection can only be forgotten, denied, never severed.

I've known a lot of psychics whose awareness plateaus because they get a god complex. They start believing they're the source of power. They get off on it, and their clients get off on them getting off on it. They get corrupted, have to fall back to cold reading and micro-expressions to game their clients. The more unconscious your clients are the more effective that kinda chicanery will be. Some corrupted sensitives are simply narcissistic fools, but others can be very nasty.

Does that help?

HKCavalier

Hey, hey, hey, don't be mean. We don't have to be mean, because, remember, no matter where you go, there you are.

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Saturday, April 10, 2010 12:07 AM

HKCAVALIER


Quote:

Originally posted by Kirkules:
I get an instant unexplained hatred of some on first contact that more often than not becomes justified upon gaining further knowledge about that person.

I know exactly what you mean. Among the sensitives I know, sudden unaccountable anger or rage tends to mean that someone in the vicinity is suffering from a heavy-duty mental disorder.

So, this hatred/indicator of yours functions online? You get reliable reads from posts? Me, the really disturbed individuals I've encountered online tend to read as "empty" or I get a sorta "psychic silence" from 'em--know what I mean?

That's really too bad about your mother's thesis. This is the stuff that NEEDS to be looked into the most. Even the cutting-edge stuff I've been able to find about the placebo effect is all still hung up on this idea that it requires deceit in order to function. But, of course, it doesn't.

HKCavalier

Hey, hey, hey, don't be mean. We don't have to be mean, because, remember, no matter where you go, there you are.

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Saturday, April 10, 2010 1:03 AM

KRELLEK


Quote:

Originally posted by Kirkules:
Quote:

Originally posted by Fremdfirma:

In our experience, anything even resembling psychic ability seems to all come from the same root, human empathy - prolly why our society is so geared towards crushing it out, and since 1978 I've begun to suspect that mankind is on the verge of a jump in mental/psychological evolution, and tripped over some related research by Thelma Moss and the UCLA team because it indirectly related to some other things I was looking into a couple years later.
-Frem


I think you’re on to something here Frem. My mother always believed that empathy was a underestimated factor in the power of the human mind. She actually wrote her first PHD thesis on the effect of the empathy of doctors on the outcomes of common surgeries. It was rejected by her academic advisor as to controversial so she changed the subject to something more generic. I’ve always considered myself to be very empathic, but it gives me no special power other then the ability to spot a sociopath others seem unable to detect. I get an instant unexplained hatred of some on first contact that more often than not becomes justified upon gaining further knowledge about that person.
Just in case you were wondering my first impression of you was a positive one, and I don’t get the impression that there are any sociopaths currently posting here.



not sure if I should ask, but that rejected PhD of your mothers, is it out on the net, I find things like that very interesting

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Saturday, April 10, 2010 8:26 AM

FREMDFIRMA



Well, yes, that *is* one end of the dark side, the ability to manipulate someone so effectively, which in combination with the ability to read em and using the correct range of voice tones and body language, can be very VERY damned effective.

How the hell you think I talk folk into stuff ?

There's even a historic precedent - Maximilien Robespierre.

Seriously, if you let him speak, that was your ass, the one time he choked and got shouted down is more or less what killed him.
And let that be a lesson to you, about listening to *anyones* siren song without questioning it, and the dark roads it can lead you down before you even realize it.

On the positive side, that is also how I determine whether I am dealing with a trueborn sociopath, or someone who is afflicted by learned sociopathy as an adaptation mechanism, which can be every bit as bad, and is FAR more common since a certain degree of that behavior is required to mentally/emotionally "survive" a public school education.

The difference is that the learned version of this can be reversed, and much more effectively if you get to it early before it has calcified into the personality as a whole.

But the key is, empathy - if they're actively suppressing empathic reactions, they're not a sociopath, not a trueborn, anyhows.

-Frem

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Saturday, April 10, 2010 11:16 AM

KRELLEK


Quote:

Originally posted by Fremdfirma:

Well, yes, that *is* one end of the dark side, the ability to manipulate someone so effectively, which in combination with the ability to read em and using the correct range of voice tones and body language, can be very VERY damned effective.

How the hell you think I talk folk into stuff ?

There's even a historic precedent - Maximilien Robespierre.

Seriously, if you let him speak, that was your ass, the one time he choked and got shouted down is more or less what killed him.
And let that be a lesson to you, about listening to *anyones* siren song without questioning it, and the dark roads it can lead you down before you even realize it.

On the positive side, that is also how I determine whether I am dealing with a trueborn sociopath, or someone who is afflicted by learned sociopathy as an adaptation mechanism, which can be every bit as bad, and is FAR more common since a certain degree of that behavior is required to mentally/emotionally "survive" a public school education.

The difference is that the learned version of this can be reversed, and much more effectively if you get to it early before it has calcified into the personality as a whole.

But the key is, empathy - if they're actively suppressing empathic reactions, they're not a sociopath, not a trueborn, anyhows.

-Frem



just a thought: empathicness, is that something that is inheritable by a possible offspring of the empath so to speak, and would that trait be refinable(maybe the wrong word), as in would two empaths that get a child or 2, would the kids then be more/"stronger" empathic?

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Saturday, April 10, 2010 12:40 PM

BYTEMITE


Quote:

i hear a lot of people suggest term limits as a solution, but the most immediate step i can think of is redefine the role of government! if we want government to regulate every aspect of our lives, purchases, decisions etc.. then we will never close the door to lobbying


The reason why people want to talk about election/campaign reform and term limits first is because in order to reduce government, you'd actually have to get people into government honest enough to AGREE to reduce government.

The scumbags we have now won't do it because of the lobbyists. You might still have lobbyists in the future, but with term limits, there's only so much they can influence because eventually the politician in question WILL get replaced.

We also need to take down the parties to have a chance at anything like a (representative) democracy, or to create a new system, if we wanted it.

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Saturday, April 10, 2010 12:47 PM

LITTLEBIRD


Quote:

Originally posted by HKCavalier:
Quote:




Does that help?

HKCavalier

Hey, hey, hey, don't be mean. We don't have to be mean, because, remember, no matter where you go, there you are.



Yes, thank you. Your explanation helped the last pieces click into place. I'm slightly autistic with emotional understandings. But I'm thinking empathy is not so much an emotion as it is a state of being.

*mini stream of thought woo-woo ramble* So empathy is sorta like the pure state of original man before all the splits caused by the control matrix and twisted thinking on this planet. And also coming at this from a physics entanglement point of view .. we really are all one. *** And, I kinda think the entire subconscious/conscious split is another unnatural control mechanism placed upon us. *

By the way, I really like your sig. :)

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Saturday, April 10, 2010 12:57 PM

LITTLEBIRD


Quote:

Originally posted by KrelleK:
Quote:

Originally posted by Fremdfirma:




just a thought: empathicness, is that something that is inheritable by a possible offspring of the empath so to speak, and would that trait be refinable(maybe the wrong word), as in would two empaths that get a child or 2, would the kids then be more/"stronger" empathic?



There might be an empathy gene that could be passed on to offspring. I don't know. I do think that if a child is lucky enough to have two parents who are empathic and raise their children in a loving and safe environment that the children would feel safe enough to express more of those qualities.

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Saturday, April 10, 2010 1:11 PM

HKCAVALIER


Quote:

Originally posted by KrelleK:
just a thought: empathicness, is that something that is inheritable by a possible offspring of the empath so to speak, and would that trait be refinable(maybe the wrong word), as in would two empaths that get a child or 2, would the kids then be more/"stronger" empathic?

Empathy is innate. We're all born with it. It's not so much an issue of heredity, as it is whether or not the child's natural empathy is suppressed or nurtured. If you've got two integrated empaths for parents, your empathy should tend to flourish.

What you're talking about is the legendary "witch gene." It's said (oh, this is fun!) that folks who share birthdays with their parents or grandparents have it, pretty much any shared birthdays in the family are a marker. Supposedly means they've got a special aptitude for the various "clairs": -audience, -senscience, -voyance, etc.

HKCavalier

Hey, hey, hey, don't be mean. We don't have to be mean, because, remember, no matter where you go, there you are.

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Saturday, April 10, 2010 2:57 PM

FREMDFIRMA



Well, if you wanna go that far out on the woo-woo scale, you know what else is a factor ?

The presence of a tortishell calico in the household from birth to four years, I forget where I saw it, but someone made the connection and even had some (but insufficient for a scientific aspect) evidence thereof...

And yeah, I got both hammers of the "witch" gene too, not only the shared B-day, but worse, that B-day happens to be Walpurgisnacht *and* Camerone Day, during which the Legion pulls Capt Danjous wooden hand out of it's case and parades with it, while the Legionaires drink to it.

It also happens, ironically, to be Childrens Day.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Children%27s_Day

And of course, at the stroke of midnight becomes May Day, a well known Anarchist "Holiday".

So make of *THAT* what you will, but it is damn eerie when you think about it, especially if yer me!

-F

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Saturday, April 10, 2010 3:38 PM

MAGONSDAUGHTER


Quote:

Originally posted by Littlebird:
Quote:

Originally posted by KrelleK:
Quote:

Originally posted by Fremdfirma:




just a thought: empathicness, is that something that is inheritable by a possible offspring of the empath so to speak, and would that trait be refinable(maybe the wrong word), as in would two empaths that get a child or 2, would the kids then be more/"stronger" empathic?



There might be an empathy gene that could be passed on to offspring. I don't know. I do think that if a child is lucky enough to have two parents who are empathic and raise their children in a loving and safe environment that the children would feel safe enough to express more of those qualities.



Empathy is probably fostered by parenting, and has a genetic element to it as well - like most of our traits - it's nature AND nurture that produces the results.

http://www.parentingscience.com/teaching-empathy.html

Interesting studies on empathy have taken place recently. They can now pin point the area of the brain that lights up, so to speak when we feel empathy. There is also some interesting links between empathy, pain and violence.

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Saturday, April 10, 2010 4:32 PM

KIRKULES


Quote:

Originally posted by HKCavalier:

So, this hatreds:/indicator of yours functions online? You get reliable reads from posts? Me, the really disturbed individuals I've encountered online tend to read as "empty" or I get a sorta "psychic silence" from 'em--know what I mean?




I don’t actually know whether I could identify a sociopath over the internet. As far as I know I’ve never encountered one. I think I might be able to recognize one, but it might be more on a conscious level using the clues I’ve seen studying the few sociopaths I have known. The most common clue would be what appears to be multiple personality disorder, but is actually just the sociopath molding themselves into what they perceive as the ideal personality for the particular situation. I have observed sociopathic behavior on this site, but it was just temporary drug induced psychopathy.

I don’t really see empathy as a extra sensory power, more just the ability to use your senses in a more primal manner, where smell, hearing, conscious and subconscious thought all seem to work together to help pick the right solution from the millions of possibilities the brain is constantly considering.

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Saturday, April 10, 2010 5:01 PM

FREMDFIRMA


Actually you'll find the best compliation of the results of that research in a book released just this week, written by Doc Bruce Perry and Maia Szalavitz - on this very topic.

Born for Love: Why Empathy Is Essential--and Endangered
http://www.amazon.com/Born-Love-Empathy-Essential-Endangered/dp/006165
678X/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1265731431&sr=8-2


Doc Perry is the founding father of CITIVAS and the Childtrauma Academy, his research into human development was, and is, light years ahead of anyone elses.

Maia Szalavitz is a hard hitting, old school investigative journalist with much the same agenda I have and a severe hard-on for the hellcamps and the whole Authoritarian-Adversarial style of parenting and childcare that created them.

Both of em are, in my opinion, four star heros of the effort to prevent dehumanization of our children by deliberate and intentional maltreatment.

I doubt there's a better book on this topic on the whole planet - and while Alice Miller isn't credited as a co-author, I bet her work is also extensively referenced within.

One hopes this book will ring the bells, straight to hell, and put an end to this crap once and for all.

-Frem

ETA: And since you'll no doubt be impatient, especially YOU, HKCav, here's some topical material from the blog.
http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/born-love

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Saturday, April 10, 2010 5:47 PM

FREMDFIRMA



Most veddy interesting - am reading some of that blog, and ran across a bit that hinted at some of the power being my "calming touch" trick...
http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/born-love/201003/touching-empathy
Quote:

As the Times notes, however, touch can ease pain, lift depression and even possibly increase the odds that a team will win.

But touch is even more vital than this: babies who are not held and nuzzled and hugged enough will literally stop growing and-if the situation lasts long enough, even if they are receiving proper nutrition-die.


Ouch, so they did follow up the link between Ezzo's methods and "failure to thrive" - and apparently proved it, or they wouldn't be sayin it.

American society is really screwed up about that kinda thing, and one of the stupidest side effects is that reactive hysteria has made parents and teachers afraid to express kindness in a physical manner to children out of fear of being accused of malicious intent - that's a damn sad thing, and one reason I hate the blind crusader types almost as much as the freaks.

Other societies even have a word for it - skinship, and it's considered healthy, not that those societies don't have their own problems, but in ours...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Physical_intimacy
Quote:

Physical intimacy is a natural part of human nature, and research has shown it has health benefits as well. When we hug or touch, we release oxytocin, dopamine, and serotonin, and have a dip in stress hormones.


I think part of *why* that trick works for me is as much that I am willing to DO it (seriously, how many folk do you know willing to make nonviolent physical contact with someone who has lost control and is violently acting out ?) as much as it is the lack of feedback loop.

Of course, I think I mighta known that subconsciously before even thought it through, cause my method of dealing with a small child gone violently bonkers is to hug them - I can take a pretty solid beating without getting annoyed, and it seemed the gentlest blend of restraint and comfort I could think of at the time, one might even say a 'natural' instinct clearly lacking in many people - and it was through this I discovered the powerful calming effect of simply making skin to skin contact with a person or animal that is in emotional distress.

And while *I* do not think it's a natural property, there's some debate on whether peppermint is a calmative as well, given that's the second thing, when trying to calm someone down, that I'll do - reach into my everfull pockets of candy and offer a brachs starlight mint, as a primal gesture of trust and cooperation.

Whether it's by long association, or by some effect of peppermint itself is in debate, but a lotta them folks, even now-adult ones, keep some handy as instant stress relief, and Wendy keeps a candy-cane tucked into her hairbow - it looks a little ridiculous, but it's so bloody cute I can't bring myself to mock her for it.
(certainly not with a fistfull of Starlights in my own pocket now can I ?)

Of course, given the circumstances, her insane taste for strawberries makes as much sense.
(imma repost that one here if I can find it, although I *am* really pressed for time...)

-Frem

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Saturday, April 10, 2010 5:49 PM

FREMDFIRMA



Wow, found it quick.
This is a Repost from an older, unrelated thread, which is how Wendy came to wind up workin for me.
Quote:

Originally posted by Fremdfirma:

Ha! - Me and the ex-Fremgirl are way too much control freaks to ever sit on the back, it's bad *enough* having to listen to each other in a car, especially with her being Kentucky-fried and me being appalachian hills, in a state where everyone seems to think they're at Talledega...


Anyhows, you wanna talk about tough women, listen to some of the RAWA girls at them orphanages, it wasn't like they be-bopped down to the local womens shelter, and that's some seriously badass desert out there, makes my rescue run through tecate look like a walk in the park, and it ain't like they just let em go neither, more than one slit throat among them stories, lemme tellya.

But there's many types of courage - it's one thing to be fearless when you're quick, tough, and skilled enough to apparently *still* be quite threatening from a damn wheelchair...
(And that WAS funny - "He wheeled towards me in a threatening manner!")

And yet there's also the courage to stay your hand when every ounce of you cries out to strike, and sometimes that's the hardest courage of all.
Watch Pans Labyrinth - Mercedes tremendous courage struck even my black heart, I could not have done that, and when she *did* strike damn she made it count.

But it's a whole nother ballgame entire when you're weak, helpless, unskilled, even ignorant of your options, or even that you have any.

And so, lemme explain about Wendy, a former DeVee who's insinuated herself somewhere between would-be paramour and self-adopted bratty daughter and shows no intent to budge.

Given what we know of early development, she had to have known love, once, probably before the development of linear coherent memory, but as a product of the Foster Care System she certainly has no memory of any - by all rights she should be a wolf-child, the usual result of what I call Closet Kid Syndrome, and damn us all that I even need a term for something so awful it shouldn't even exist.

All she knew for so very long was darkness, silence, hunger, it was ALL she knew, you understand - hell even a beating shows someone cares, cares enough to hate, but there's times that ain't nothing worse.. than nothing.

Who knows what started it, a memory, a sound, probably a scent of spring, since the girl has an amazing sense of smell, but at some point she up and decided she was gonna pick her time and go for it - completely unknowing of the fact that we had recently been called in by a concerned relative who was fearful that the girl was prolly buried in the back yard, who came to us after two years of trying to get someone, anyone, to investigate...

That's not a bash on the system, though I've got the right - so much as they didn't go about it well, had nothing to offer in the way of reason or evidence, and were very tenative for fear of bringing that system down upon their own heads, and finally in desperation went to the darker side and thankfully drew our attention before getting in over their heads with something unpleasant.

Now, I don't believe what other folks believe, but the situation as it unfolded simply defies any logical, rational explaination, longshots like that only happen in bad hollywood B-flicks, and it kinda offends my sense of a sensible reality to have that dropped on my head like an Acme Anvil from a merry melodies cartoon, mind you, call it fate, destiny, whatever, for the kid to pick THAT moment, to make her break, defies all sensibility, especially since she's never been able to explain or articulate why herself.

Hell, maybe it's a bright version of the dark wind that seemed to follow Jelly Brice, causing hardcore mobsters to instantly surrender when he showed up despite having no manner of knowing it... sorry, digressing...

Anyhows, so this tiny, quiet, badly malnourished and neglected girl picked her time and glory-rushed the door for all she was worth, and it was worth a LOT since she had just recently tipped into the age bracket where the berserkerang usually first manifests itself - I swear, the place looked like a bomb hit when they came to take evidence pictures, she went full bore zerk on the whole bloody place since she couldn't see to hit anything in particular.

Yeah, she has permanent vision damage, mind you, another aspect of Closet Kid Syndrome, but there's a real whiz optometrist here and we've been working with various lenses and filters, she's been real patient since this might help others down the road, though obviously it'd be better if there WEREN'T any others, but still, she can see ok only after sunset, and will never be able to drive a car, but she can SEE - which at that time, she could not, it was all one big, bright, loud blur to her, you see.

But using memory of footstep sounds from above, remembered layout, scent, hell, for all I know it was the friggin force, she made it to, and through, the front door, leaving it hanging on one badly bent top hinge, and hightailed it as fast as possible, somewhere, anywhere, just, AWAY - not even thinking to howl at the top of her lungs cause it never occured to her, all she knew, all she hoped, was that people weren't evil and SOMEONE would be there to rescue her if she could only get loose long enough for it to happen, the sheer STRENGTH of that belief, that courage, that she put her entire extistence on the line, so far as she knew, betting everything she had, little that it was, on simple human decency, despite never having known it in her own memory - what do you SAY to that ?

Even more bizarre, what do you say to that absolute surety, that certainty, when you happen to be the one who WAS there, and it makes utterly no sense to YOU ?

And so there's me, with nothin but a vague description to work with, doing a slow cruise-by and mentally marking out spots to place a couple observers to see who comes and goes, too cursed early and not completely mentally "with it" all that well quite yet - and WHAM, out that door comes this teensy girl who matches the vague description and has no other reason to be there, with one of the Fosters in hot, injured, angry pursuit...

One of my edges is being so quick on the uptake some folk take it for prescience, and before my brain caught up enough to sputter WTF? my reflexes were already in gear and active, snapped the wheel hard and heel stomped the brakes to swing the back end loose and cut the angle, reaching out and flicking the door latch as I locked the brakes up again to stop and fling the door wide - and yelled TAKE MY HAND! - she flailed for it, caught a grip like a set of visegrips and I hauled her into the car and took off so fast apparently they never even got a plate number, not that it woulda mattered so much later, but it did forestall any immediate problems that I was long and away GONE before the Fosters even thought to notify anyone - them bein reluctant for some damned obvious reasons.

I hadn't connected it cause imma dolt sometimes, and for me a certain degree of kindness is so automatic I don't even notice - but en route to a safe place, I thought to give her some food since she was so obviously malnourished, and woulda gone with somethin like a small set of chicken nuggets or something equally tiny and bland (I have far more experience than I ever wanted in dealing with really damaged people) but that she couldn't see complicated that, so I bought her a strawberry milkshake.
The girl has a thing for strawberries now that borders on a junkies need for a fix, cause apparently it's wired in as what freedom tastes like.

So we wound up getting her emancipated, via some rather unpleasant legal wrangling that left me with a bad taste in my mouth cause it didn't blacklist those evil gits from the list of potential Fosters, but at least it cut her loose of them, and she went through the usual recovery process as well as some stuff tailored to her specific problems - and incidentaly kinda speeded my retirement cause when I gave her the final exam for personal self defense she handed me my ass so bad she thought she'd killed me and started freakin out about it - I *did* mention she can zerk, right ?
And she's younger, faster and more agile - after ascertaining that I was ok and only mostly stunned and roughed up, that bastard Justin was laughing so hard he was in tears... prick.

Well, due to my physical condition and the recent ass-handing there, I was kinda desperate for someone to help cover site three, and after another girl didn't work out cause she was totally unsuited to the work, I asked Wendy if she would be willing to assist me even if it meant facing her greatest fears a little earlier than expected, and she said ok.

Not sure if I went into detail about this bit or not, but the ones who are not "ok" yet, they wear cat ears as a visible tell of this so that everyone we deal with knows to treat them with kid gloves, especially as part of the therapy needfully involves teaching them self-defense before they're safe to be around most folk cause it's an integral part of the recovery - the ears coming off is like a seriously big deal and usually at the end of a graduated reintro to "normal" society with little party and everything, see...
And that decision usually falls to the folk most involved in their recovery process - it's part of an old joke that caught on as a way to set a visible flag without makin em feel like lepers, is all.

So, I start training her to do security rounds, which she has natural talent for, and since she can walk to work, and can actually see, is something she can DO instead of feeling helpless - but there it is, the quiet, silent darkness she fears the worst, you see ?

And she was a bit skittish at first, but thing was, in that environment, it's HER world, where others are blind, she can see, where others are weak, she is strong, other people will look up to HER for protection and assistance in the cold, quiet darkness...

And she stops - I worry that she might be losing it, but she just has this perplexed look on her face, and finally she says in this itty bitty stunned voice.. "I don't have to be afraid anymore.", and then, again, bold and confident...

And she reaches up, pulls those ears off and hands em to me.
"And I will NEVER be afraid again."

I can be brave, I can be fearless, but I know it's a sham when more than half that courage is cause I happen to be slightly mad by any definition, and most of it has been mostly cause at the time I had nothin to lose, but yeah, I got some sand down there at the bottom of it all.

But I ain't even in the same class as that girl, not by a longshot - she took her own nightmare and conquered it, made herself it's ruler, instead of it's victim, and she took that last step, as she took the first one, of her own will and unassisted.

Kid's got more guts in her pinky than I got in my whole being, seriously.

I've heard and seen worse, but I figured I would relate hers cause she gave me permission and it has a happy ending and all - you cannot imagine how it made me feel to watch her take that final step, to watch it happen right in front of me.

Machismo means jack shit to someone who's seen real courage, often enough when folks paid for it with their life or worse, and frankly, for straight flat out and out courage in all of the more important non-physical ways ?
I'm betting on XX over XY - based on how many of each actually pull through.

-Frem

You summoned me...


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Saturday, April 10, 2010 10:48 PM

LITTLEBIRD


Well done Frem. VERY well done. Sends Wendy a big
ehug. Incredible story of the strength of the human spirit. An amazing young woman.

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Sunday, April 11, 2010 1:11 AM

FREMDFIRMA


Amazing pain in the arse too, will of titanium + teenage girl = headaches galore, and she won't listen to nobody else, oh no...

While she has grudgingly accepted that it's inappropriate for someone her age to be drooling over someone my age, it doesn't stop her from yanking my chain just to see my reactions to her needling, and yeah, I know not lettin her get to me is the best way to do that, but just TRY ignoring a headstrong, energetic teeniebopper when they don't wanna be ignored!

She is kinda special to me as a self-adopted "daughter" though, she is the last case I handled personally, and what with Alice and her filling each others emotional voids we're almost like a family sometimes, although me and Alice don't really feel anything like that towards each other, at least I don't... but she adores that brat, spoils her rotten, and maybe so do I, a little - she's got a way of rubbin off her happy on me, much to the shocked amusement of others, and so I don't give her the wall of ice treatment I mostly do with anyone else, cause she's seen enough horror herself that her reaction to what'd be mindbending for most people is "bleh, icky" and keep right on rolling.

Oh, and Alex was floored almost to tears when we carpet bombed him with new baby supplies, kept goin on about how we didn't have to, and we were like STFU man, did you think we were gonna let you swing in the breeze ?

Of *course* we're gonna back him up, we're not some penny pinchin corporate empire who'd be lookin for an excuse to boot him cause he dared have a life outside of work, he's one of us, and we're like the friggin musketeers!

Just don't go askin me to change diapers, cause there's WMD, then biowarfare agents, and then there is baby poop - seriously, I won't do it.
Yeah yeah, go ahead and laugh, the guy who deals with horrors unimagineable is freaked out, sure...
YOU go change the howling munchkin then!

-Frem

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Sunday, April 11, 2010 11:48 AM

FREMDFIRMA



Apologies for doing so, but I am bumping this so HKCav won't miss it - for the cause he and I believe in, this book is essentially 50 Kilotons of tactical nuke, so it's kinda important that he knows about it.

-F

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Sunday, April 11, 2010 1:17 PM

KRELLEK


no need to apologise :-)

not sure was it your mother that wrote a PhD on Empathness?, if it is out on the net, I would like to ask for a link, it sounds interesting, if it not on the net, would it then be possible that it could get out on the net? :-)

just a curios young man

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Sunday, April 11, 2010 3:52 PM

FREMDFIRMA



Nah, that was Kirkules mom.

My mom was more intent on arming a Tykebomb - by encouraging certain of my naturally-occuring bents, I was to some degree her retaliation upon what she felt was an unjust society.
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/LaserGuidedTykebomb

That's part of why I don't have kids, raising them to my own moral standards and viewpoints would make them forever unwelcome in the world they'd have to live in, and while I respected my mother tremendously - I always did have an issue with the fact that she never actually asked me, and as such, I would not inflict that kind of social exile on a child without their express permission.

-F

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Tuesday, April 13, 2010 10:47 AM

KRELLEK


About the question about empathy being a possible big part extra sensory powers like mindreading and such, well there came a thought to me(or rather borowed from a firefly fanfic screw the alliance)in chapter 3-4 of the treasure Lei Fong Wu, it is mentioned by Simon, that tries to explain to Kaylee what exactly the Amygdala does in a human(filtering the data uptained by the scenses(sight, hearing, feeling, smell, etc. etc. he also mentions that perhaps among one or two other things that Scizofrenia might actually be some sort of uncontroled reading of people thoughts

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Tuesday, April 13, 2010 11:19 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


I don't know about uncontrolled reading of others' thoughts, but a number of the mental illnesses, bipolarity and schiz in particular, have been postulated to be at least partially caused by "too much input", that we can't discriminate because there's such an overload.

I can only speak for Borderline and Bipolarity, but I KNOW with both of those, hypersensitivity to others body language, facial expression, word choice, etc., is acute. Borderlines in particular are extremely adept at sensing what another person wants, even unspoken, and playing to it. It's one of the things that makes them so dangerous. Exactly the sort of thing you said, Kirk:
Quote:

molding themselves into what they perceive as the ideal personality for the particular situation
. Borderlines are incredibly good at doing just that.

And I've heard too many stories from other bipolars to question the hypersensitivity and wonder if there's something else going on. I've mentioned this before...things like waking up in the middle of the night, then finding out the next day that someone we were really close to died at just that moment; that sort of thing.

I and others have also wondered if, given that mankind only uses a small portion of the brain, perhaps what is viewed as "mentally ill" is actually some more parts of the brain being active and our not knowing how to deal with it. Given it's not 'acceptable' by society, it can well be one of the reasons famous bipolars though history have been seen to seem "eccentric". It's conceivable, and has been theorized by scientists, and is held up by the concept of "too much input".

By the way, one of our major problems IS the amygdala, that's scientifically proven, and it's tied in with the "too much input" thing as well.


"I'm just right. Kinda like the sun rising in the east and the world being round...its not a need its just the way it is." The Delusional "Hero", 3/1/10

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Tuesday, April 13, 2010 11:39 AM

FREMDFIRMA



Actually, I JUST mentioned this in another thread, but I shall repost it here too since it's applicable.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sensory_defensiveness

-F

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Tuesday, April 13, 2010 11:49 AM

BYTEMITE


Schizophrenia is a lot of things. What you see most in Hollywood is the "I hear voices" angle, or the "the Blue Sun Company is a bunch of evil lizard people, and their food production branches are an attempt to fatten everyone up for the harvest of souls!"

At it's most basic, schizophrenia is defined as someone who has a disconnect from reality. Schizo literally means "split." As a comparison, there's a personality disorder out there called "schizoidal," where a person chooses to lives in a more fantasy interpretation of reality, and cloisters themselves off from human contact. Phrenia means "mind," which suggests that this schizophrenia is an uncontrollable break from reality that originates from the mind.

Schizophrenia has wide ranging symptoms. One of the more common ones is an altered sense of the passage of time. In any case, schizophrenia is such a broad categorization of behaviours and symptoms that to say it's caused by any one thing is specious.

Schizophrenia overlaps enough with psychosis that some psychiatrists prefer the "schizotypal personality spectrum." These are psychologists that prefer to study schizotypy as a personality trait, believing that some degree of insanity and/or delusion is present at all scales in the population. Not a bad assessment, in my view, especially because by considering mostly personality, they don't seem to be about medicating the peeps into catatonia with L-dopamine. (Anti-psychotics: also called "major tranquilizers" for a reason!)

River certainly lies somewhere on the schizotypy spectrum and hers is most certainly induced, though she had some eccentricities consistent with the disorders even when she was young.

That's... Actually a part of Screw the Alliance's stories that I didn't like. I feel like by just roundly declaring River a paranoid schizophrenic and mischaracterizing that "at any moment, she could forget who I (Simon) am and try to kill me" was really trivializing the many symptoms and issues involved in schizotypy.

However, schizotypal stuff does seem to have a strong relation to the basal ganglia and the cingulate gyrus, which do govern interpretation of other people's emotions. Not so much the amygdala, which governs self-preservation emotions (fear, anger).

I also add that Borderline Personality Disorder, which Niki mentioned, is thought to have a few elements of schizophrenia, since BPD personality often involves delusions about relationships, particularly in being certain that other people are going to reject or abandon them.

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Tuesday, April 13, 2010 12:39 PM

KRELLEK


oh, I had forgot that part of the(i am rereading it now, it was just that i hit into that particular part, but perhaps it is not some sort of scizoprenia she suffers from(and well as any young girl(perhaps even guys too) that comes into a interview at some prestigious school or something, could most likely exhibit some forms of "wierd behavior" becuase they simply put are damn nervous(here i am thinking of part of R. Tam sessions, the part that ends with will i still be allowed to dance, Simon: she could forget who i was and Kill me part

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