For or against it ? by AURaptor

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)

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Originally posted by AURaptor:
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Originally posted by Kwicko:
For starters, I don't accept your statement. You say she "represents" a larger organization. Is she a spokesperson - officially - for MSA? Or is she a member of a group, speaking her opinion?

Watch the video. She identifies herself as a member of the MSA, on more than 1 occasion.

Yes, "member of" - that's not quite the same as her being there to "represent" the MSA, is it? I mean, you're a member of the Republican party; are you their spokesperson?

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What would you have us do? Censor her free speech rights? Jail her? Torture her? Kill her? What's your solution? What's your plan?

She seems to want to censor herself more than anyone. I posted this video here, for all to see. I don't think there needs to be a " solution ", but only to know what it is that " these people " are saying. Now that you know, you can't claim you were never told.

Do with the information what you will.

Oh, gads! There are people who don't like other people! What ever shall we do?

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Further, where is the right in decrying statements such as were posted by Dream, which were uttered by Horowitz himself, in which he claims that blacks should be grateful for slavery for bringing them here in the first place? Why don't you hear the right decrying the racism from Horowitz?

Mike

Why should the "right " decry what Horowitz says? If anyone, fellow Jews should chime in, if they feel the need. Technically speaking, he IS right, of course. Blacks here have a far better standard of living , statistically speaking, than their distant relations back in Africa.

Yeah, and they only had to endure a few hundred years of slavery to win their big lottery, huh?

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I can't agree that his remarks are "racist". Blacks ( just as the Jews were, at one time ) were slaves. It's a matter of fact. Insensitive and callous, I'd call those remarks, but not racist.

I think it'd be fair to ask Mr Horowitz if the Jews feel "lucky" after having been slaves in Egypt. 40 years of wandering in the desert, and then clear sailing after that, huh?

Why don't you try making the claim that the Jews should really be thanking the Nazis, for without the Holocaust, there'd be no Israel. See how that goes over with your messiah Horowitz.

Mike

"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence [sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero, Real World Event Discussions

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Friday, May 14, 2010 4:17 PM

America loves a winner!

Dream

Where'd you get the idea that I didn't think the media was "Jewish" enough for me. Where'd that come from ?? I never even entered those waters.

Never claimed DH was any sort of a tea party fan. Don't know where that came from either.

Islam is not a race. Sorry, but I'll attack anyone who openly admits they want to annihilate a race or group of people, merely because of who they are. No, to answer you..not racist in the least. Why do you ask ?

You didn't watch the entire video if you didn't see her imply anything about killing Jews. I think I even posted the text.... dunno how you missed it, regardless.

Hezbollah and Hamas have their own issues , and might not see eye to eye on much, but they do share funding from Iran and a desire to obliterate Israel off the face of the planet.

She had said that she can't defend Hamas, so he asks her about Hezbollah.... two peas in a pod, regardless.

I see no racism here, what so ever. You want to go off on a tangent and talk about what D.H. has said elsewhere ? Fine, I'll wander over to that thread, if you start one. Here, I'll stick to the issues at hand.

Hope ya feel better. And soon.

Bones: "Don't 'rawr' her!"
Booth: "What? she'rawred' me first."

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Friday, May 14, 2010 4:22 PM

America loves a winner!

I'm a registered voter, but not registered w/ the GOP.

I see a vast difference in " not liking " someone and wanting to hunt them down. Might just be semantics to you.

The " home land for Holocaust " myth is one mistake that too many seem to make. Israel was in the works long before WW2. ( and I"m not referring to any promised land, either )

Bones: "Don't 'rawr' her!"
Booth: "What? she'rawred' me first."

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Friday, May 14, 2010 4:28 PM

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2) David Horowitz has nothing to do with the tea party as far a i know. He's the antithesis of the people and principles on which it was founded, God, he's no kind of libertarian at all, if he showed up it would just because the GOP paid him to, or because he wanted to tout a neocon line to an at best lukewarm audience.

Dream, a small point of contention, albeit minor: If "Whore-o-witz" spoke at a Tea Party, it would be because he was being paid to (as you mentioned), AND it would be so that he could out a neocon line to a neocon audience. The tea parties ARE the neocons. Stand one next to the other, and like the rocks at Machu Pichu, you can't slip a voter registration card between them. They're that close.

Rappy's worried about someone on a college campus calling for genocide and speaking in racist language and tones, that much is true. He's just pointing the finger at the wrong speaker.

Mike

"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence [sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero, Real World Event Discussions

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Friday, May 14, 2010 4:32 PM

Rap,

Sorry, I was adding to my post above, I didn't think anyone was responding.

Not jewish enough, I was responding to your comment that the media as all muslim friendly and didn't protect jews in the same way, which is innacurate on all accounts.

By your race ethnicity analysis, it is not antisemitic to hate jews. I think the term "dark skinned arab" however, is a racial identifier.

You didn't watch the entire video if you didn't see her imply anything about killing Jews. I think I even posted the text.... dunno how you missed it, regardless.

Hezbollah and Hamas have their own issues , and might not see eye to eye on much, but they do share funding from Iran and a desire to obliterate Israel off the face of the planet.

She had said that she can't defend Hamas, so he asks her about Hezbollah.... two peas in a pod, regardless.

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I see no racism here, what so ever.

then scroll up, I posted plenty more

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You want to go off on a tangent and talk about what D.H. has said elsewhere ? Fine, I'll wander over to that thread, if you start one. Here, I'll stick to the issues at hand.

Sorry, he is one of the topics of this thread, you made him so by posting his video. I really don't want to discuss David Horowitz, I've had about as much of him as I can stand and he will not stop sending me spams despite repeated requests by me, which is why I was familiar with some of his less appealing positions, because he has bombarded my inbox with them for years. But for the purpose of this, I just wanted to discredit him as a spokesperson for racial injustice. I thought I did a reasonably bang up job of it ;)

Thing is, I actually support Israel, and this kind of conflict is not good for the future of israel, which is outnumbered in its neighborhood about a 100 to one by muslims. That's a time when peace might be a better choice for the minority.

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Hope ya feel better. And soon.

thanks.

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Friday, May 14, 2010 4:49 PM

Freedom is Important because People are Important

Hello,

I am very confused by this whole topic.

Everyone agrees that both of these groups have hate-filled extremists.

Nobody is defending those hate-filled extremists.

What are we at odds about, exactly?

--Anthony

"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner

"You can lose a quark you don't girth." -Dreamtrove's words to live by, translated by Ipad

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Friday, May 14, 2010 5:13 PM

Rap, Mike, your both right in a way.

Israel started as a colony in 1919, but it was already an unofficial one before that. in 1909 there were some 30,000 jews in an israeli colony in palestine. The british israelite society pushed for the annexation of palestine at the end of wwii.

It does creep me out that the same organization pushed for non-involvement during the holocaust, even releasing a statement saying that khazar jews were "not jews" the essence of this being that they were not britain's problem. Obviously, I have reason to take that one personally. I'm not by any means about to support David Icke's assertion re: israelites of britain as a crisis/opportunity. I don't think Icke is at all credible, but the idea that there is any element of the british israelites agenda did gain traction as a result of the holocaust, is disturbing.

Certainly the end result of the situation was a lot of support for israel, to that extend, Mike is right.

To understand some of the mindset at the time, you have to truly fathom the western european and esp. british attitude towards slavs, since the Khazars were Slavs. The basic feeling was, if they were human at all, they were some sort of sub-race. You can see this in a lot of writings of the time.

My stronger suspicion is that the British Israelite Society has no interest in importing the slavic jewry into the main body of the western european jewry because, like the rest of western europe, they believed that the slavs were genetically inferior. This meant that there would be "genetic polution" of the jewry. Again, to understand this you have to think about an institution born in the mid 19th c. and dying in the first half of the 20th, these were all prevalent attitudes.

It's very probable that they had no idea how bad things were going to be. They did, however, arrange for a large number of Jews to be transported to israel. It's even likely that this was the birth of the "Jewish relocation program" I did some research into this. It really seems that the first 4,000 or so actually made it, and the last 600,000 did not.

If anyone is at all interested the mechaniscs of the holocaust are really very informative, because it did not happen in nearly the clean manner in which one would think. It seems to me much more that there was already slavery in nazi Germany, and the jews became a convenient labor source. Killing the weak would fit this model, and as many as half of all jews would be likely killed in capture, because contrary to popular belief, they put up quite a fight, because most were not captured in germany (there was as you all know, gun control inside germany itself, but not so much outside.) By the end of the holocaust, any slav who could work was being called a jew, but i doubt that brings the numbers down, as those killed in capture, and in uniform, are not counted into the total.

The main twist is the rerouting of train containing jews. What makes it more disturbing is that prior to shipping out, Eichmann had made three trips to Israel to secure their passage and housing, for 600,000 jews, so at least he truly believe thats where they were going.

My suspicion is that this was actually the plan all along, but once the train left germany, the law no longer applied, and all were eaten by the war machine, including the contractors of various nations that were involved, and not just germany.

The reason for doing this at all is to prevent a future holocaust against anyone.. Quite frankly, I'm more worried about a holocaust against muslims than against jews. I think it's a far more likely scenario. And, I don't usually say this, but this is what's great about the united states of america. You can question an official story, and come up with a better answer, because we're not afraid of the truth. We trust that the truth is more valuable than the version we like, and so the "final solution" theory which legally cannot be questioned in Europe, can be pushed aside, and may reveal an even darker side to nazi germany, and frankly, I think the jews come out looking better in what I think really happened, because they did in fact actually do something about the situation, and some of them survived. It drives a stark contrast to the hollywood image of useless jews following like sheep, waiting to be saved by soviets (or sometimes inaccurately made into americans)

This is why when I see anti-islamic rhetorric, particularly of a dehumanizing sort, it reminds me of the anti-semitic rhetoric of the 1920s and I know now where that leads. But there are many other possible targets, latino populations, the china/india conflict, and to cross those, Obama's affair in pakistan has me wigged. This is just me, as usual, speculating a worst case scenario. If I get on your case about something like this, that is where I'm coming from.

ps. a last note about islamic terrorism, and then I intend to abandon the entire subject: It's nothing special, and it's not new. The muslim world has been riddled with terrorists for decades, if not centuries. IMHO, this is the result of religious extremism, because the muslim world has been trapped in a dark age. The burqas tell that story right off. If you think about Europe during the dark ages, pre-renaissance, it was very much like this, and acts of terror by christian extremists was rampant. I stand unconvinced on the connection to 9-11, or that islamic terrorism represents a threat to any one outside the muslim world. These guys are incredibly internally focused and really impressively incompetent, not because they're muslims, but becaue they are terrorists. The IRA was always incompetent as well. It's just like the stories of stupid robbers breaking into convenience stores. If they had brains, they would have set up a pyramid scheme, or something clever that had an exit strategy, made a decent pile of cash, and was not heavily traceable. Only a moron would commit a crime that leaves him with $200 in cash, a dead body on the scene, and him on camera holding a gun. Ditto terrorists. If they had brains, they would've thought of something else.

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Saturday, May 15, 2010 2:47 AM

America loves a winner!

Quote:
Originally posted by AnthonyT:
Hello,

I am very confused by this whole topic.

Everyone agrees that both of these groups have hate-filled extremists.

Nobody is defending those hate-filled extremists.

What are we at odds about, exactly?

--Anthony

The student in the video stated that she was " for it " when asked the question regarding gathering all the Jews in one place and making it easier to hunt them.

I'm unaware of Israel having anywhere in its charter which discuss the obliteration and/ or doing away with any other country or people. To say both have their "extremists ", while technically accurate, fails to acknowledge the huge differences.

Some want to play the equivalence game, saying since both sides hate each other, and both have done unspeakable acts of violence, then they're no more than different sides of the same coin.

I vehemently disagree. There is a side which wants nothing more than to defend itself. There is a side which has offered peace , only to have it thrown in their face, time and time again. There is a side which openly declares that nothing will be achieved until the other side is thoroughly defeated.

I see things as they are, while many want to see things as they want them to be.

Thus, the root cause of the odds.

Bones: "Don't 'rawr' her!"
Booth: "What? she'rawred' me first."

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Saturday, May 15, 2010 4:03 AM

Freedom is Important because People are Important

Hello,

So the whole point of this is to say "The Israelis are better than their genocidal neighbors, at least by some measurable degree?"

--Anthony

"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner

"You can lose a quark you don't girth." -Dreamtrove's words to live by, translated by Ipad

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Saturday, May 15, 2010 4:26 AM

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There is a side which wants nothing more than to defend itself. There is a side which has offered peace , only to have it thrown in their face, time and time again.

They're called Palestinians.

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There is a side which openly declares that nothing will be achieved until the other side is thoroughly defeated.

They're called Israelis.

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Saturday, May 15, 2010 4:55 AM

Freedom is Important because People are Important

Hello,

I can't believe this whole thread is ultimately about:

Israelis > Palestinians

Really?

This reminds me of a South Park voting episode.

--Anthony

"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner

"You can lose a quark you don't girth." -Dreamtrove's words to live by, translated by Ipad

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Saturday, May 15, 2010 5:56 AM

Sometimes you own the libs. Sometimes, the libs own you.

It's not about one set of peoples is better than the other. It's that one side has a deeply embedded cult of nihilistic mass murder, that spreads internationally and threatens the whole world.

It's much harder to imagine a member of an American Jewish student group standing up and saying he supported the position that all Palestinians or all Muslims be hunted down and killed.

Heads should roll

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Saturday, May 15, 2010 6:05 AM

Freedom is Important because People are Important

Hello,

"It's that one side has a deeply embedded cult of nihilistic mass murder, that spreads internationally and threatens the whole world."

Okay, I don't dispute this.

"It's much harder to imagine a member of an American Jewish student group standing up and saying he supported the position that all Palestinians or all Muslims be hunted down and killed."

My imagination has no problem conjuring this scenario. I'd be surprised if this isn't stated quite regularly in private. The only leap is whether or not they'd say it in public.

After all, there are many Americans, much farther removed from the Palestinians, who think that all Palestinians should be killed. And they say so in public.

But anyways... so what?

Muslims have, amongst their ranks, a cult of nihilistic mass murder that spreads internationally and threatens the whole world.

I accept this. Okay. So? This isn't in dispute, I don't think? We all know about the Muslim terrorist organizations that have committed acts of terror worldwide.

So? What are you saying? Is that it? Tell me rain is wet, next, or tell me something new.

--Anthony

"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner

"You can lose a quark you don't girth." -Dreamtrove's words to live by, translated by Ipad

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Saturday, May 15, 2010 6:21 AM

Sometimes you own the libs. Sometimes, the libs own you.

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My imagination has no problem conjuring this scenario.

Are you saying that the problem might exist to the same extent in the international Jewish community as it does in the Muslim? If so please provide evidence, you should be able to find videos like the one above quite easily.

But if you accept that on the Palestinian and Muslim side of things there is a big and special problem, then that's worthy of analysis and concern don't you think? If you're already saturated with this topic that's fine. I don't think others should be forced to stare at it - but those with a real interest and concern should be allowed to discuss it.

Heads should roll

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Saturday, May 15, 2010 6:28 AM

Freedom is Important because People are Important

Quote:
Originally posted by kpo:
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My imagination has no problem conjuring this scenario.

Are you saying that the problem might exist to the same extent in the international Jewish community as it does in the Muslim? If so please provide evidence, you should be able to find videos like the one above quite easily.

But if you accept that on the Palestinian and Muslim side of things there is a big and special problem, then that's worthy of analysis and concern don't you think? If you're already saturated with this topic that's fine, but others might find things to talk about in it.

Heads should roll

Hello,

I'm fine talking about it. But what are you saying, exactly? What is your end point that you are trying to make?

Is it that the Palestinian and Muslim terrorists are a big and special problem?

I agree.

Telling me it's worthy of analysis and concern?

I agree.

I think everybody, everywhere, is very concerned about this. I think everybody, everywhere is analyzing the problem and wondering what can be done.

I think, in fact, that this wonderment has been going on for longer than I've been alive.

We are in agreement.

I think we are all in agreement over these specific points.

What do we disagree on?

Do we disagree, not about the Palestinian or Muslim terrorists... but rather about something else?

Perhaps we disagree about the Israelis?

--Anthony

"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner

"You can lose a quark you don't girth." -Dreamtrove's words to live by, translated by Ipad

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Saturday, May 15, 2010 6:46 AM

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...

I think you nailed it as usual, Anthony. Everyone recognizes there's a problem; one can argue all day about whether the Israelis have a right to be there or not. They are: that's reality, and they're not going anywhere.

Aside from which, the problem isn't how Muslims behave worldwide v. how Israelis do...in this situation it is merely the problem that needs to be dealt with between the two sides where the conflict between them is.

The problem is that, in their way, they've become as bad as the other side, murdering and getting away with it...and worse. Something needs to be done about THAT just as much as the problem with the Palestinians, etc., in my opinion.

I'm not going to get into the "Jew" thing; I think it's stupid, I think the guy in the video is stupid and so are all those who think like him, as well as all those who think like the student. We need better solutions.

"I'm just right. Kinda like the sun rising in the east and the world being round...its not a need its just the way it is." The Delusional "Hero", 3/1/10

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Saturday, May 15, 2010 8:21 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by kpo:
It's not about one set of peoples is better than the other. It's that one side has a deeply embedded cult of nihilistic mass murder, that spreads internationally and threatens the whole world.

Yes, they're called Israelis.

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It's much harder to imagine a member of an American Jewish student group standing up and saying he supported the position that all Palestinians or all Muslims be hunted down and killed.

It's "harder to imagine"? Even though Horowitz pretty much espouses that position every chance he gets?

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Saturday, May 15, 2010 9:00 AM

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...

Woa, I don't think it's the Israelis. That description fits Muslim extremists--I don't see Israelis running around mass murdering which it 'spreads internationally'

Just to be fair...and don't think this means I approve of what they do, just that 'internationally' doesn't describe what they do. However, I DO think it endangers the whole world, if they keep on doing what they are and it leads to global war...

"I'm just right. Kinda like the sun rising in the east and the world being round...its not a need its just the way it is." The Delusional "Hero", 3/1/10

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Saturday, May 15, 2010 11:47 AM

rap,

I was not calling Israel a racist bent on domination over Arabs, I think that's absurd. I was calling Horowitz a racist bent on domination over arabs.

I think serious racism is being aired here, and people should re-examine their positions. I don't if your just trying to suck up, but bear in mind that Israel may not always have the upper hand. Hedge your bets, support Israel, but don't tick off the guys who might someday be in power

Myself? I like isreal, I disagree with Somme of the govt policies, and I disagree with ours, and also with palestine's. Hamas is the govt of Palestine. It's not a terrorist organization. It's a regime I disagree with. If anyone disagrees with them enough, they should field a candidate in opposition. If they have any more radical approach, I'm really not interested.

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Saturday, May 15, 2010 12:29 PM

Sometimes you own the libs. Sometimes, the libs own you.

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Quote:

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Originally posted by kpo:
It's not about one set of peoples is better than the other. It's that one side has a deeply embedded cult of nihilistic mass murder, that spreads internationally and threatens the whole world.
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Yes, they're called Israelis.

Are you capable of analysising the situation yourself, then putting that into your own words? That's infinitely more valuable than this type of contrarian-parrot response.

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It's "harder to imagine"? Even though Horowitz pretty much espouses that position every chance he gets?

That Palestinians and Muslims should all be hunted down and killed...? More blurring things into equivocacy here.

Heads should roll

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Saturday, May 15, 2010 12:34 PM

America loves a winner!

Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko:
Quote:
There is a side which wants nothing more than to defend itself. There is a side which has offered peace , only to have it thrown in their face, time and time again.

They're called Palestinians.

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There is a side which openly declares that nothing will be achieved until the other side is thoroughly defeated.

They're called Israelis.

Only in Kwickie world.....

Bones: "Don't 'rawr' her!"
Booth: "What? she'rawred' me first."

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Saturday, May 15, 2010 2:04 PM

Freedom is Important because People are Important

"blurring things into equivocacy"

Hello,

I'd like to acknowledge that their stated positions are often not equal.

But what does that gain us?

Again, we are in the position of arguing Israel > Palestine.

In other news:

Walking Barefoot Over Tacks > 3rd Degree Burns

If you can show one to be incrementally worse, does that mean the better one isn't bad? Do we have to pick sides? Or can we say that both of them are just awful, and both of them need to change?

I feel that Israel is in the power position, so I expect more from them. The people in the ghettos living amongst rubble that used to be their houses? Yes, they also need to extend the olive branch. However, I think the people who hold dominion over their land and lives might have to reach further. Not because they are worse people, but because more is expected from those who hold the power in a relationship.

--Anthony

"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner

"You can lose a quark you don't girth." -Dreamtrove's words to live by, translated by Ipad

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Saturday, May 15, 2010 2:13 PM

Sometimes you own the libs. Sometimes, the libs own you.

Quote:
Do we disagree, not about the Palestinian or Muslim terrorists... but rather about something else?

Perhaps we disagree about the Israelis?

I'd bet that we do. We can start a discussion on Israel if you like (I promise you it won't be the first ever one though!).

I personally think there are contemptible elements on both sides, and atrocities commited by both sides - but I tend to resist views that demonise the whole of one side or the other. And that includes such views as 'Israel has a national psychosis because of the holocaust, and is intent on perpetrating another holocaust against the palestinians' - I think that's a happy liberal fantasy-interpretation where the palestinians are victims, the Israelis are the villain but also victims, and America is the real bad guy to be blamed.

I'm a liberal by the way, I just get annoyed by other liberals...

Heads should roll

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Saturday, May 15, 2010 2:26 PM

Freedom is Important because People are Important

" 'Israel has a national psychosis because of the holocause, and is intent on perpetrating another holocaust against the palestinians'"

Hello,

You won't see me arguing this. I believe in true equality, where all governments and races of people are equally capable of perpetrating a holocaust. It's like a rogue wave. In any body of water big enough, the perfect conditions for horribleness eventually surface.

--Anthony

"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner

"You can lose a quark you don't girth." -Dreamtrove's words to live by, translated by Ipad

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Saturday, May 15, 2010 2:42 PM

Sometimes you own the libs. Sometimes, the libs own you.

Are the conditions as likely to happen in a liberal democracy (with a free press etc.)?

It seems like a reasonable view except the calculation is different for different governments I'd say. Also different religions...

Heads should roll

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Saturday, May 15, 2010 2:49 PM

When we're financing one side, supporting them militarily, and yet sanctioning and harrassing the other, despite NEITHER one having any moral high ground...

Imma be pissed off at the one who is soaking up our resources to continue their bloodbath with, while the bridges in my home county are falling down for lack of maintainence and funding.

They wanna do that shit, let em do it on their own fuckin dime - and that's as simple as I can make my position without a six page rant.

-F

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Saturday, May 15, 2010 2:49 PM

Again, I pretty much have to go with Anthony on this one. I should side with Israel because they're maybe 0.0003% less evil? Sorry, but siding with the lesser of two evils is still siding with evil.

Instead of condemning one or the other, how about we condemn them both, then lock them in a room and let them figure it out amongst themselves?

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Saturday, May 15, 2010 2:52 PM

Quote:

That Palestinians and Muslims should all be hunted down and killed...? More blurring things into equivocacy here.

I hate to be an ass about it, but if you would kindly go back to the video and rewatch it, she agrees that she would like NOT to hunt down the Jews. She really does agree that NOT hunting them down would be preferable.

I don't know where you people get that she wants the Jews "hunted down", because that's plainly not in what she agrees with.

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Saturday, May 15, 2010 3:05 PM

I don't think either side is evil. Israeli and Palestinian leadership is questionable, and I blame us, and the Saudis. We collectively are support these factions toward a violent end. I suspect an international treaty to back the hell off would probably be the best thing for both sides. The snag at the moment is that Israel has been beefed up by the US with too many "act of desperation" weapons. Some sort of disarmament would probably be a good idea. I don't think either should be defenseless, but the act of desperation for both sides should be to either reconcile or flee, not to destroy the world.

Notice that Horowitz is calling for all out war agaisnt the Islamic Infidel, which, yes, he has done many times, but that he is not in the fight, or living next door to the fight, he is in a clean protected shell where the fight will never ever touch him.

I trust the people who will be in the line of fire to make the final decision in this one. I think that when humans know that they will personally have to face the consequenes of war, 90%+ of them will chose peace. It behooves any society to arrange its decision making process such that it is never run by the other 10%.

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Saturday, May 15, 2010 4:15 PM

Sometimes you own the libs. Sometimes, the libs own you.

Quote:
I don't know where you people get that she wants the Jews "hunted down", because that's plainly not in what she agrees with.

That's right, she was favouring genocide in a more convenient way.

Are you saying she didn't understand the question? Or do you not understand the question?

Heads should roll

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Saturday, May 15, 2010 4:36 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by kpo:
Quote:
I don't know where you people get that she wants the Jews "hunted down", because that's plainly not in what she agrees with.

That's right, she was favouring genocide in a more convenient way.

Are you saying she didn't understand the question? Or do you not understand the question?

Heads should roll

I'm saying YOU seem to not understand what the actual WORDS were that were used. You want to impart meaning, but you keep misspeaking as to what the actual WORDS were. Everyone keeps saying "She wants the Jews hunted down and killed," when quite plainly, if you go by the words spoken, she agreed that she was for NOT hunting them down. Did Horowitz or did he not say that he hoped the Jews wouldn't be hunted down, and then asked her if she agreed, and she said she was "for it".

If you can't even agree or understand the words used, how can you begin to assume her meaning or intent?

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Saturday, May 15, 2010 4:52 PM

Sometimes you own the libs. Sometimes, the libs own you.

Quote:
I should side with Israel because they're maybe 0.0003% less evil? Sorry, but siding with the lesser of two evils is still siding with evil.

To an extent I agree with you, and I don't agree with 'unconditional' U.S support for Israel. But I don't agree with hanging Israel out to dry either, but that's because I haven't lost all faith in their intentions. To those of you that have, I can understand your frustration at paying to arm them.

If you think I'm trying to persuade people to support Israel I'm not - I think overall public opinion in the U.S has to move the other way. Though I could be wrong. No, one element of evil in this conflict (and outside it), qualitatively different from any Israeli evil, is worth examining for its own sake.

For example, some people say Palestinian violence is a reaction to Israeli harsh treatment, and if Israel stopped the violence on its end and acted only in peace and goodwill, Palestinian violence would eventually end completely. Would it? If they got a peace accord giving them a viable share of the land and lots of international help, would the formerly genocidal elements be satisfied?

Also, is it worth including Hamas in peace talks, is that likely to be of any value?

The specific evil is worth looking at, and understanding, is all I'm saying.

Heads should roll

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Saturday, May 15, 2010 5:10 PM

Sometimes you own the libs. Sometimes, the libs own you.

Quote:
Everyone keeps saying "She wants the Jews hunted down and killed," when quite plainly, if you go by the words spoken, she agreed that she was for NOT hunting them down.

There's two ways to interpret it, she doesn't wants to hunt the jews globally but conveniently in one place. Or, she doesn't want to hunt the jews at all - she wants them conveniently in one place so that she doesn't have to 'hunt'.

And both statements are abhorrent. What's your third interpretation?

Heads should roll

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Saturday, May 15, 2010 5:16 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by kpo:
To an extent I agree with you, and I don't agree with 'unconditional' U.S support for Israel. But I don't agree with hanging Israel out to dry either, but that's because I haven't lost all faith in their intentions. To those of you that have, I can understand your frustration at paying to arm them.

I appreciate that - it's why I haven't really participated in the discussion, and probably won't, cause I feel that they are not, and have never for a moment been, in good faith, not towards Palestine, and not even towards us, their so called allies, so I am all for "hanging them out to dry" where they must finally face the consequences and results of their own behavior without being able to run to us crying, like a child upset cause the dog bit him in retaliation for kicking it.

If we hadn't been protecting them from the natural consequences the whole while, their behavior (and I mean government policy) would probably have been a little more circumspect, but as it stands, they've provoked every country on the planet to the point where we're the only idiots dumb enough to keep propping them up.

What happens, happens, we're partly responsible for allowing it to get that bad, sure - but in the end the only people they have to blame for their conduct (and I don't mean existence, but things they have done) is themselves.

This is why I am so dead-set against foreign entanglements beyond humanitarian relief efforts in the first place, cause of how they wind up not only biting us on the ass, but also in the destruction of the folk we propped up, and a hostile stance with that country for decades after, hell, Iran hasn't forgotten The Shah, yanno ?

Shoulda never got involved, not then, and not now.

-Frem

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Saturday, May 15, 2010 5:51 PM

Sometimes you own the libs. Sometimes, the libs own you.

Quote:
I feel that they are not, and have never for a moment been, in good faith, not towards Palestine, and not even towards us, their so called allies, so I am all for "hanging them out to dry"

Israel's leaders talk openly about a desire for peace all the time - it takes both sides to make peace, but still I can understand cynicism at the lack of results. But what about the Israeli people? As I understand it they poll consistently as saying that they want peace:
http://www.bicom.org.uk/context/opinion-polls/survey--67--of-israelis-
believe-the-prolonging-of-current-situation-without-a-political-process-is-bad-for-israel

Do you think the Israeli government is never representative of this, only ever in lip-service? In that case perhaps this instead comes down to faith in democratic government. If succesive Israeli governments have secretly never been open to peace - cheating the Israeli people as well as the Palestinians - that seems quite scandalous to me. And far-fetched. Is there strong evidence/motive for it? Otherwise I have to place some of the blame of intractability on the Palestinians.

Heads should roll

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Sunday, May 16, 2010 12:27 AM

I think their PEOPLE might want peace, some of em, not enough of em, but a substantial chunk, sure...

But I don't think their government ever really has, although I didn't mean so much with the Palestinians as with us, about bad faith.

When someone makes 20 promises to you and 20 for 20 breaks em, often the self-same day, at what point do you call em on it ?
Cause they've done far more than that.

And dear heavens, when you include the appalling amount of outright espionage and sabotage against us, their supposed ally and primary supply line, and mind you, this is just stuff we can prove or they admitted...

Comverse, Amdocs, AIPAC, "art students", "moving companies", Zonealarm, Ruben and Krugel, the list goes on and on, but you get the idea.

The worst of it though is the political influence circle, they get us to dump huge amounts of aid money to them, launder it and then use it to buy off politicians to send them more aid money, everyone knows it, nobody calls em on it, or almost nobody, there's been a few - Kuchinich pitched em out of his office, as did if I recall correctly Betty McCollum, but it's rare, and usually followed by a deluge of PAC money to whomever their opponent is.

So it's not like I can even pretend they're negotiating in good faith with us, consider this - exactly what the hell do *WE* get out of the deal but the enmity of the rest of the planet, even as their negoitators laugh at us as suckers (believe me, you can find an endless list of those kinda comments) behind closed doors ?

And that doesn't even touch stuff like the media influence, worst of which is that nearly all mainstream media outlets use MEMRI's translation - and if one ever bothered to cross-check it, which they don't, you'd find their "creative translation" borders on outright fiction.

None of that's conspiracy, mind you, this is all stuff they did, and was either proven or admitted to, so I cannot for the life of me see any particular reason to trust them with that and the fact that they break every agreement they make with us before the ink is even dry, anything but bad faith all the way around.

And if they're like that with us, it stands to reason they're probably even less honest with their own people, where they prettymuch have complete control of the media, finances, and all that sort of thing.

I think at the root of it, neither side WANTS the conflict to stop, cause just as the fanatics on the palestinian side stay in power by pointing out the atrocities and abuses, then winding up young dumb fools to go get themselves killed over it (and then howling about their martyrdom to encourage more) - so too do the fanatics on the israeli side point out the terrorism and wind up their own young dumb fools to go kill and die.

And it's all about power.

That's WHY the leaders never really go after each other, cause the game is what keeps them in the lofty seats, you see - it makes no sense to blow up a buncha civvies who may not even agree with their leaders, unless you WANT to keep the booga-booga going so that no one questions your leadership.

So really, I see BOTH sides like that, it just happens we're backing one against the other for reasons that have nothing to do with logic and a lot to do with religion - and *THAT* is what I despise the most.

The only legacy these religions ever seem to leave in their wake is piles of the innocent dead.

-Frem

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Sunday, May 16, 2010 2:52 AM

"Israel's leaders talk openly about a desire for peace all the time"

Kpo

And American politicians say they will stand up for the little guy, and not the fat cats on wall street

Politicians advertise, and advertising is the art of lying. If it were true, again, there would be no need to say it. Notice how many times a democrat will say he opposes abortion? A republican does have to, his audience already knows.

The first time I saw this in action was when I s a kid, and my mom bought a lawnmower called "quiet easy start" Well, since then , I've been watching it. It really never fails.

It does tell you one thing though : what the people want. It's good to know the israeli people want peace. If they didn't, there would be no reason to say it.

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Sunday, May 16, 2010 5:32 AM

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...

I agree, Israel talks about peace a lot, but it's advertising. Their actions have shown otherwise.

As to leaving the Palestinians alone because they've got their own land, so their continued fighting isn't logical, that leaves out one important thing: Israel keeps expanding, illegally, and taking more and more land by doing so.

I don't think the fighting would stop if both governments wanted it to, but it would slow the process down enough that if there was any hope of peace, it might have a chance. But the Israelis HAVE put the Palestinians in a kind of ghetto, the way they're keeping them from obtaining the necessities of life, and I'm ashamed of them for doing so.

I don't think we should stop supporting them entirely, but I think we do it too much currently without any demands that they change their ways, which sends a bad message if nothing else.

I would also LOVE to see more MSM coverage of Israeli atrocities; this country is too solidly behind Israel in my opinion, and we give 'em stuff to fight without demanding anything in return. We give them the tools, with no limitations, then we keep on paiting the Palestinians are the sole "bad guys". It's a mentality we need to change, however that might come about.

However, as to Israel pursuing their own holocaust, I don't believe that. I think it's perfectly reasonable actions on the part of the government to grab whatever they can and, with our backing, have free reign to do what they please. Governments DO NOT represent the people, none of them as far as I can see, unless they're forced to. They pursue their own agendas.

As to the woman in the video, she answered directly to the question that was posed. She may have modified it later on, but it's ingenuous to say that initially her answer wasn't a direct "yes" to the question.

"I'm just right. Kinda like the sun rising in the east and the world being round...its not a need its just the way it is." The Delusional "Hero", 3/1/10

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Sunday, May 16, 2010 8:52 AM

. Israeli * leadership,* not israel. Not just the govt, but also some of the zionists here, create problems, they sell war as peace.

This is part of what ticks me off about horowitz. He and his fellow neocons makes this push for war, which is endangering Israel, and helping make it look bad. More than that, What ticks me off is that he makes the right look bad. He stands up as a beacon of conservative thought and then says that being a conservative is all about hating blacks and Muslims. For me. It's not about that. It's about civil liberties, limited government and the preservation of what we already have, but they rights, prosperity, culture, environment, things that people generally fight to preserve.

I don't really want a review of Israeli atrocities any more than I want more stories about suicide bombers and honor killings. These things take the actions of random individuals and make them appear to apply to an entire group. We don't need more hate.

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Sunday, May 16, 2010 9:20 AM

DT, when they're acts of official policy, that's not random individuals.

I take your point and all, but the POLICY of espionage is something that sticks in my craw, always has.

-F

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Sunday, May 16, 2010 10:26 AM

America loves a winner!

Quote:
Originally posted by Niki2:I agree, Israel talks about peace a lot, but it's advertising. Their actions have shown otherwise.

Really? Their actions show otherwise ? Like when they offered nearly everything the Pals asked for, and then got rejected ? Like leaving Gaza ? That was just all for " show " ??

Really?

Huh.

And what ( besides 1000's of rockets ) have the Pals offered in return ?

Bones: "Don't 'rawr' her!"
Booth: "What? she'rawred' me first."

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Sunday, May 16, 2010 11:21 AM

Frem,

I don't think it's official policy to commit atrocities. Sure, it's official policy to take an aggressive attitude towards Palestine, and atrocities are the inevitable fall out of that.

I just don't tank that airing this particular basket of laundry on either side will help anyone. There's a decent chance offing MLK s official govt policy, but if we had a holiday to commemorate the FBI, for it's work in this matter, I don't think it would've helped race relations.

Offhand I don't know of any israe
I policies on the level of what we authorize on baghram and Abu ghraib, but we didn't authorize Hadith, and circulating such stories leads people to that conclusion.

I'll grant that if might do the Israelis some good to circulate it in Israel. Theres a fair amount of local ignorance of these things that comes through when you talk to people from Israel.

Otoh, you know how the press runs with these bs stories of "this is what pakistanis are like" if some get raped or killed. It reminds me of these stories of Christian mom drowns kids, and how that might play in afghanistan following the same logic.

What they really need is a few ethnic restaurants and some entertainers, the sorts of things that really lead towards acceptance.

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Sunday, May 16, 2010 3:07 PM

Sometimes you own the libs. Sometimes, the libs own you.

Quote:
I agree, Israel talks about peace a lot, but it's advertising. Their actions have shown otherwise.

Undoubtedly both sides advertise, and blame the other for thwarting peace. But one side calls consistently for peace (even right-wing halks like Netanyahu) while the other calls consistently not just for war - but complete anhillation of the other side. Now I think to a large extent Israel doesn't mean what they say, and to a large extent Palestinians don't mean what they say. But some people make out that Israel is the only obstacle to peace, and that's too big a denial of what we see and hear, imo.

The question of the true readiness of each side to make peace is an important one - important to the question of whether we should hang Israel out to dry. Perhaps it is the Palestinians who have sometimes thwarted peace? And if so, can we judge so harshly Israel's actions against an enemy that refuses peace and apparently can't be reasoned with? The suspicion Frem talks about perhaps goes both ways.

Quote:
Governments DO NOT represent the people, none of them as far as I can see, unless they're forced to.

Forced by other nations' governments...?

Governments do represent the people, just imperfectly, and sometimes very imperfectly. Peace is such a big thing to so many Israeli voters, I cannot see the government never reflecting that.

Heads should roll

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Sunday, May 16, 2010 3:38 PM

KPO

I'm a pretty stalwart support of israel, enough so that it gets me in trouble, and not just on this board, and it's obvious to me that what your saying is simply not the case. I can only think of two possible explanations for you saying it:

1. you are part of some disinformation campaign, in which case, just let me know so I can stop wasting my time, or

2. you actually believe what you are saying.

Assuming the later, I can only assume you were a victim of the former. See malicious translations, and you'll get it. A western press is not telling you when people on the Islamic side are making sense or offering peace.

The most common trick is to take something radically out of context. To wit: Israel annouces it's is putting a moratorium on destruction of houses on the west bank, hamas responds by saying "this is a great day for Islam." then terrorists kill Israeli school children, and the story on CNN reads " terrorists kill Israeli schoolchildren, hamas says " this is a great day for islam". Now seriously, your not going to tell me that wasn't manipulative?

Also, you have to figure I'm using my head here. I mentioned a couple times that my fathers family was killed in the holocaust, so you gotta figure that when I defend Ahmadinejad, its because I do not think he is a Nazi, and that I think he actually has a point. I don't think that Osama bin laden has a point....

My point is, objective analysis. simple logic.

Humans seek peace and prosperity, value their Homes andtheir lives, like food and speak languages, enjoy stories as entertainment, etc. are basic things that make humans tick. I've seen pictures of gaza, looks like a nice place, if it were my home I would want to defend it. Palestinians act out of self preservation, Some act as agents for some foreign power. But if you cannot logically arrive at a reason it is fairly logical to assume that it did not happen as you heard, and there is room for further investigation, which i have always found to be fruitful.

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Sunday, May 16, 2010 3:53 PM

Well, the settlement/landgrab thing is also pretty indicative - I mean, how the hell do you negotiate with assholes taking your land by force, who promise to stop, laughing up their sleeve as they don't even bother to slow down, and despite that, everyone accepts their promise as gospel in light of a history of breaking them, in light of them not even pretending to keep it, and all the while they keep right on marching forward.

How can they not be pissed about it ?

In ghetto terms, Israel needs be steppin OFF Palestines corner before the talkin can start.

-F

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Sunday, May 16, 2010 4:53 PM

Sometimes you own the libs. Sometimes, the libs own you.

Quote:
Humans seek peace and prosperity, value their Homes andtheir lives, like food and speak languages, enjoy stories as entertainment, etc. are basic things that make humans tick. I've seen pictures of gaza, looks like a nice place, if it were my home I would want to defend it. Palestinians act out of self preservation, Some act as agents for some foreign power.

Why does Hamas call for the destruction of Israel in its charter? That's not self defence and that's not motivated by a desire to have peace and prosperity for their people. One thing you forgot about human nature is that we are easily seduced by the idea of holy war. Something that is invariably unhelpful.

Quote:
Well, the settlement/landgrab thing is also pretty indicative - I mean, how the hell do you negotiate with assholes taking your land by force,

A fair point. A peace plan has to be based on previous (1967 I think) legal boundaries, and land swaps. Israel dismantled one of its settlements a few years ago I remember, so it isn't completely gung-ho about this I think. But I don't excuse the encroachment - even where Israel feels they have a right to the land it would be wise and respectful to everyone to not move into it. Or at least not declare construction plans during early stages of peace talks...

Heads should roll

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Monday, May 17, 2010 6:37 AM

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...

I agree, KPO, there is enough blame to go around. Didn'tmean to indicate otherwise. I think to say the other "side" wants to anhillate the Israelis is too broad, certainly some aspects of that side, but there have been quotes on the part of Israeli's to the same effect, and their soldiers have admitted to atrocities.

Both have spoken of peace, both have thwarted it, undeniably. But again I point, as Frem did, to the landgrab aspect of it which, along with the cutting off of basic necessities, contributes greatly to continuing the grievances which have made peace impossible so far. Hamas certainly deserves ITS share of the blame, too.

OTOH, I think "Holy War" works both ways. Given it was initialy all about religion, I believe there is sufficient mindset regarding both religions involved in this. I could say something about organized religion at this point, but I'll refrain. Some on both sides have dehumanized the other because of religion.

Hamas is not Palestine. They're a sect of Muslims who gained power because of a number of things, resentment of Israel being high on the list. They don't represent the Palestinians to me any more than Christian Fundamentaists represent Republicans; they're part of the group but on the extreme end. JMO

As to DT's comment, I think it's both disingenuous and unnecessary. One can use their head and feel the Palestinians aren't innocent, and I've not actually heard the kind of slanted reporting he describes. What I AM aware of is that, except for on the internet, one hears little about Israeli atrocities and the things they have done that have made attaining peace more difficult. Only when it's something of high news value, like the latest Biden debacle, does it seem to make the news...then it goes away and Israel goes on doing whatever it wants.

The disingenuous part is that Palestine acts only out of self-preservation. I'm not sure where that comes from, but I certainly don't think it's true. SOME Palestinians, certain, just as some Israelis feel they have to fight to keep from being wiped out, but it's not true of all, or maybe even the majority, on both sides.
There's enough blame to go around, and who is "more" to blame can be argued indefinitely. I certainly don't want to hang Israel out to dry, but I also don't think we should be unilaterally supplying them with the weapons of war without them taking some responsibility for STOPPING it.

I'll make one statement: One only has to look at the casualty figures, which ARE reported I think fairly accurately (given our press is relatively pro-Israel) to see who is suffering most from this war at this time. Beyond that, both are culpable and have done enough damage to be to blame for the peace process not being attainable.

"I'm just right. Kinda like the sun rising in the east and the world being round...its not a need its just the way it is." The Delusional "Hero", 3/1/10

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Tuesday, May 18, 2010 3:20 PM

Sometimes you own the libs. Sometimes, the libs own you.

Quote:
But again I point, as Frem did, to the landgrab aspect of it which, along with the cutting off of basic necessities, contributes greatly to continuing the grievances which have made peace impossible so far.

Yep, I pretty much agree. I don't know what the arguments for encroachment are, my hope is that it isn't limitless and zionist-driven. I might seek out some analysis of the land that has been taken.

As for the blockades, of course Israel only blockades Gaza and not the West Bank, where Hamas isn't in charge. And I can kind of understand it: Hamas, which vows to destroy Israel, gets voted in to power; so Israel treats Gaza as a 'hostile entity' - one that it has no obligation to prop up by allowing food and fuel supplies in via its territory.

I don't think imposing suffering on all Gazans collectively in this manner was a moral or wise decision by Israel, but I can understand it. Israel is not legally responsible for Gazans, Hamas is - and Hamas chooses to vow the destruction of Israel, even though Gaza depends on that country to allow aid in...

Quote:
Hamas is not Palestine.

Yep I agree, and I didn't like it when Auraptor used the two terms interchangably earlier. A fine example of a government not reflecting its people very well in my view.

Heads should roll

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Tuesday, May 18, 2010 4:08 PM