Despicable Arizona! by Niki2

Freedom is Important because People are Important

Hello,

I am increasingly ashamed of my state. We are the butt of the country's jokes, and we deserve it. Everyone: Please observe, point, and ridicule as we cut off our noses to spite our faces.

"You want to boycott us? Well, fine. We'll boycott ourselves for you!"

*sigh*

--Anthony

"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner

"You can lose a quark you don't girth." -Dreamtrove's words to live by, translated by Ipad

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Friday, May 21, 2010 7:58 AM

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...

It's not "you" or "your", love, it's your state's GOVERNMENT. California has done quite enough things to make me ashamed, but I know it's not "me". We can only do what we can to influence our state standing by American values; if we're not in the majority, we're stuck with the consequences.

This one I find particularly reprehensible. Dunno if they'd do it if they could, but it sure speaks volumes. What happened to the Republicans' believe in personal liberty? Essentially, if people choose not to buy from Arizona, "we'll punish you". And no, it's NOT a matter of personal liberty not to sell to CA if they boycott...it's pure and simple revenge. The boycott is a matter of principal; people disagree with things outside their principals by marching, boycotting, writing letters, etc. Threatening to cut off their electricity because they are following their consciences isn't about principals, it's about retribution.

So much for the right's beliefs in personal freedom. One more dichotomy in their thinking. There are so many...

"I'm just right. Kinda like the sun rising in the east and the world being round...its not a need its just the way it is." The Delusional "Hero", 3/1/10

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Friday, May 21, 2010 8:13 AM

Damn, and I was expecting that from a different direction, but still...

Didn't I mention, repeatedly, during several discussions about civil unrest/riots/etc - that it was very possible the powers that be would shut off power and water to force compliance ?

And here comes AZ, with that very fekkin threat.

Indeed, it shows their true colors - but that's CALIFORNIA they're threatening, which is maybe a little weird, and a lot more progressive, and worse, fulla "greens"...

Let em TRY, every damn alt-energy geek, green, and liberal kook will build, buy or put on order every freakin solar panel, windmill, or what have you they can get their hands on, and it'll be like one of them sports rallies where the flags come up from one end of the stadium to the other, only it'll be solar panels and windmills, across the freakin STATE.

Now, if they picked someone else to threaten, maybe, but Cali-friggin-fornia ?

Oh this is gonna be interesting.

-Frem

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Friday, May 21, 2010 8:17 AM

WULFENSTAR

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg

Heh.... hehehehehe

Cali- "BOYCOTT ARIZONA!!!"

Ariz- *click (power turns off in Cali) "How bout them apples?"

Cali- "NO FAIR!"

Ariz- (whistles quietly)

Ha, this is great.

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Friday, May 21, 2010 8:27 AM

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)

...

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Friday, May 21, 2010 8:28 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Niki2:
This one I find particularly reprehensible. Dunno if they'd do it if they could, but it sure speaks volumes. What happened to the Republicans' believe in personal liberty? Essentially, if people choose not to buy from Arizona, "we'll punish you". And no, it's NOT a matter of personal liberty not to sell to CA if they boycott...it's pure and simple revenge. The boycott is a matter of principal; people disagree with things outside their principals by marching, boycotting, writing letters, etc.

I agree. People have a right to boycott Arizona, Arizona has no rights. How dare they choose not to buy or sell something to people who refuse to buy or sell to them. And what right do they have to enforce laws in their own state? They must and should do what other states and the Federal Govt tell them to do, especially big states run by liberals who know what's better for Arizona then Arizona does.

Likewise I have a right to my opinions and the rest of you must agree with them or else keep silent, if you don't I have the right to take action that costs you money, but you can't take action that costs me money cause thats wrong. Hmmm...maybe we have this all wrong. Lets look at it a different way.

In short LA wants to boycott Arizona in order to punish the people of Arizona for doing something LA does not agree with. That is LA's right.

Arizona has the right to pass laws and enforce laws that apply to law enforcement within its own state. So long as those laws do not violate the protections of the Federal Constitution, then its Arizona's business and nobody else's. If someone outside seeks to punish Arizona for its choice, that's their right. If Arizona wants to punish them right back, that's Arizona's right.

Nobody can force Arizona to sell electricity to California, if California decides not to do buisiness with Arizona, this is something that California should consider before butting their nose in Arizona's internal policy.

Its kind of like little kids playing basketball. California does not like what Arizona is doing and says Arizona can't play with California's ball. Arizona owns the court and says California can't play on their court. If Arizona has another friend...Oklahoma who has a ball, then California is out of luck and all they can do is say "screw you guys, I'm going home".

Go home California. Go home.

Edited to add: I note for the record that if certain folks would go home this would not be a problem and everybody would be playing together nicely.

H

"Hero. I have come to respect you." "I am forced to agree with Hero here."- Chrisisall, 2009.

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Friday, May 21, 2010 8:43 AM

Where does Arizona get its water? Maybe someone should turn off the tap.

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Friday, May 21, 2010 9:27 AM

Better idea, if they wanna take it THAT far, set up checkpoints on all the highways out and refuse AZ natives entry to other states without a full and intensive background check and invasive interrogation.

Since, they obviously wanna play rough, well then, LETS GO THERE.

Then let em threaten to secede, yeah, that'll be even more fun, and wait ? where TO ?
Oh, yeah, duh.

-F

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Friday, May 21, 2010 9:33 AM

WULFENSTAR

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg

Yes Frem, a war between states is a good idea.

A little blood-letting, and a restructuring and diminishent of Federal authority is what is called for.

Glad we agree.

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Friday, May 21, 2010 9:36 AM

Freedom is Important because People are Important

Hello Hero,

Obviously Arizona has the right to boycott itself on behalf of other states. However, that doesn't make it the intelligent thing to do. Also, if the state of California has a business interest in the power companies, then they are entitled to a percentage of the power no matter what Arizona the state might like to say about it.

The fact that this has degenerated into a self-destructive urinating contest can't have escaped you. Arizona is upping the ante on a battle that, if taken to its ultimate conclusion, will only cause suffering.

You can't be in favor of that.

--Anthony

"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner

"You can lose a quark you don't girth." -Dreamtrove's words to live by, translated by Ipad

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Friday, May 21, 2010 9:49 AM

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...

Yeah, Frem, it IS strange in a way--especially as we have at least as many illegal immigrants, if not more, as Arizona, yet choose not to trample on civil rights or endanger our own America citizens with a gestapo law.

It's incredibly telling, what the Wulfwind posted. Says it all, doesn't it?

Hero, you’re a bit of an idjit. As Anthony said, the basis for Arizona not being able to cut off electricity to California is that California OWNS some of Arizona's electricity—the threat is an empty one. Ergo; Californians are free to boycott Arizona products, no law prohibits it. Arizona cannot legally cut off the ownership by California in their power IN RETALIATION. California owns shares in Arizona’s power companies...so you’re in favor of Arizona breaking the law and denying shareholders in its companies electricity? That’s a good one.

I see you choose to ignore “the commission itself does not have the authority to cut power to Los Angeles”. So the freedom to boycott anything isn’t acceptable to you, while the illegal freedom to deny something IS. Very interesting. As to going home; we ARE at home, thank gawd. I’d hate to be in Anthony’s place and have to live in a state that does what Arizona is intent on doing.

And what about ALL the other states that are boycotting Arizona because of this Gestapo law? He’s singled out California, and I know why (see below) simply because there is a threat he can make with regard to us. Cute. And it’s not about selling or buying to/from whoever one chooses; it’s purely and simply about retribution. I boycotted tuna for decades until they instituted dolphin-safe nets; I didn’t like it, but I followed my conscience. You blab about freedom and rights; but I maintain: the threat from Arizona isn't about anything but retribution. Big difference. “....threatened to shut off Los Angeles' Arizona-based electricity supply in retaliation for the city's decision to boycott....”

It wouldn’t affect the city’s Department of Water and Power, which has wind farm and nuclear energy contracts in Arizona. Federal regulators oversee the power grid. Because most national media have no knowledge of the power plants’ ownership structure, and because Pierce’s letter didn’t explain it, most media took the letter as a direct threat to black out the city. But they can’t.

By the way, on a related note, California is the lowest user of electricity per capita and per dollar of gross state product in the west. Arizona is the third largest consumer of electricity. We’re lessening our per-capita electrical consumption, and going green. Can Arizona say the same?

Actually, Mike the Arizona/California Water Wars have been around for decades and feelings are still high on both sides. Arizona hates California for "stealing their water", as in the Colorado River, and the federal government has had to intervene a couple of times. Water coming from the Colorado River, in their opinion, "belongs" to Arizona...again reflecting a mentality quite clearly. Legally, they can't cut us off, any more than they can deny us electricity, but they would if they could. Besides, they can only cut off electricity to SOUTHERN CALIFORNIA, which is fine with me! (that’s a Northern Californian snark)

"I'm just right. Kinda like the sun rising in the east and the world being round...its not a need its just the way it is." The Delusional "Hero", 3/1/10

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Friday, May 21, 2010 9:50 AM

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...

I do, however, like your idea in theory, Frem. Just in theory, and to giggle over.

It degenerated into a pissing contest because Arizona doesn't like being boycotted and this guy suggested retaliating in a way never done before; numerous other states and organizations are boycotting, but they singled out CA; again, very telling. Boycotts are time-honored traditions; threatening to cut off electricity is not.

By the way, if you're talking retaliation, there's all the gasoline and shipping cargo we export to Arizona... ut the whole thing is ridiculous. Boycotting with meetings, conventions, etc., isn't unknown, the rest IS.

"I'm just right. Kinda like the sun rising in the east and the world being round...its not a need its just the way it is." The Delusional "Hero", 3/1/10

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Friday, May 21, 2010 9:52 AM

Quote:
... I have the right to take action that costs you money, but you can't take action that costs me money cause thats wrong.

Oh, look - "Hero" thinks he's British Petroleum!

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Friday, May 21, 2010 9:56 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Wulfenstar:
... and a restructuring and diminishent of Federal authority is what is called for.

Glad we agree.

Yeah, 'cause that's how it worked out last time there was a war between the states, right?

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Friday, May 21, 2010 10:03 AM

Freedom is Important because People are Important

"We’re lessening our per-capita electrical consumption, and going green. Can Arizona say the same?"

Hello,

Just so people don't think we're complete excrement over here, there is a big push for solar in this state, and a local power company is installing a sunfarm.

I myself did a documentary on the construction of a Habitat for Humanity home in Phoenix that is a 'zero net energy home.'

Link:

Now you all know what I look like. ;-)

More importantly, this is a trend. We are going green. Or yellow, at least. (The color of the sun.) Slowly but surely.

--Anthony

"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner

"You can lose a quark you don't girth." -Dreamtrove's words to live by, translated by Ipad

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Friday, May 21, 2010 10:12 AM

STORYMARK

Here's what I'm wondering - I doubt Cali is getting that energy for free. So cutting off the power, even if they could, would be a big hit to Arizona's state income, right? This is the state that had to sell it's own government buildings just to keep functioning, right? How would this be a good idea??

"I thoroughly disapprove of duels. If a man should challenge me, I would take him kindly and forgivingly by the hand and lead him to a quiet place and kill him."

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Friday, May 21, 2010 10:12 AM

PIRATENEWS

John Lee, conspiracy therapist at Hollywood award-winner History Channel-mocked SNL-spoofed PirateNew.org wooHOO!!!!!!

Operative Nikovich12

Indonesian citizen Saddam Hussein Obama Bin Laden renounced US citizenship

Quote:
"Shit's gettin way too complicated for me. There are white folks, and then there are ignorant mutherfuckers like you! You can put lipstick on a pig. Sorry ass mutherfucker's got nuttin on me. I inhaled frequently - that was the point. Pot helped, and booze. A little blow when you could afford it. Junkie, pothead. That's where I'd been headed. You ain't my bitch nigger, git your own damn fries!"
-Illegal alien Barack Hussien Obama Soetoro, Dreams From My Father
http://www.archive.org/details/ObamaInauguralMashup/

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Friday, May 21, 2010 10:13 AM

STORYMARK

Quote:
Originally posted by Wulfenstar:
Yes Frem, a war between states is a good idea.

Ah, tossing around your violent psychosis again, I see.

"I thoroughly disapprove of duels. If a man should challenge me, I would take him kindly and forgivingly by the hand and lead him to a quiet place and kill him."

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Friday, May 21, 2010 10:19 AM

America loves a winner!

That is so fucking awesome, I hope AZ carries through and shuts off power AND water to LA, and any other city that foolishly continues this bull shit boycott nonsense.

Bones: "Don't 'rawr' her!"
Booth: "What? she'rawred' me first."

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Friday, May 21, 2010 10:25 AM

Freedom is Important because People are Important

Hello Auraptor,

I can't quite believe that you think this is a good idea. Are you being faceitous? Is this a joke I don't get?

--Anthony

"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner

"You can lose a quark you don't girth." -Dreamtrove's words to live by, translated by Ipad

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Friday, May 21, 2010 10:26 AM

PIZMOBEACH

... fully loaded, safety off...

Anthony, I'm not getting anything, no linkie.

Niki: "It's not "you" or "your", love, it's your state's GOVERNMENT."

I find this statement of yours ironical since your boycott of AZ will hurt the "you's" and "your's" of that state. You want them to pay, why? For Goldwater from 30 years ago? You have a vindictiveness towards a whole state... WTF?

I love this. CA wants to try and dictate to AZ? With the issues CA has??? CA tries to bully AZ and they popped them right back - "fix your own shit thank-you."

Scifi movie music + Firefly dialogue clips, 24 hours a day - http://www.scifiradio.com

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Friday, May 21, 2010 10:29 AM

Freedom is Important because People are Important

Hello,

See if this works. I'm an amateur at the linky interweb stuff. ;-)

--Anthony

"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner

"You can lose a quark you don't girth." -Dreamtrove's words to live by, translated by Ipad

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Friday, May 21, 2010 10:57 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:
That is so fucking awesome, I hope AZ carries through and shuts off power AND water to LA, and any other city that foolishly continues this bull shit boycott nonsense.

Exactly how much water do you imagine Arizona sells to other states?

By the way, how does stuff get INTO Arizona? Through, maybeperhaps, the port of Los Angeles.

Oh. Not any more, I guess.

Yes, Arizona - PLEASE boycott Los Angeles. Hell, boycott the entire state of California. I'm sure you'll cripple them, Cali only being the 8th largest economy in the world and all...

This might get really, REALLY fun. Well, not so much for Arizonans, I suspect.

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Friday, May 21, 2010 10:59 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Fremdfirma:
Better idea, if they wanna take it THAT far, set up checkpoints on all the highways out and refuse AZ natives entry to other states without a full and intensive background check and invasive interrogation.

Since, they obviously wanna play rough, well then, LETS GO THERE.

Then let em threaten to secede, yeah, that'll be even more fun, and wait ? where TO ?
Oh, yeah, duh.

-F

Bingo. That's perfect. Let's just have everybody else play Arizona's game against anyone coming out of Arizona.

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Friday, May 21, 2010 11:03 AM

America loves a winner!

Quote:
Originally posted by AnthonyT:

Hello Auraptor,

I can't quite believe that you think this is a good idea. Are you being faceitous? Is this a joke I don't get?

--Anthony

No joke. I'm fully 100 % behind this new law, as are most of those polled in AZ and across the country. It absolutely is the right thing to do.

The AZ law doesn't impose any more restrictions on immigrants than is already in place w/ Federal laws.

Bones: "Don't 'rawr' her!"
Booth: "What? she'rawred' me first."

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Friday, May 21, 2010 11:29 AM

Freedom is Important because People are Important

Hello Auraptor,

I'm not talking about the law, here. I'm talking about shutting off utilities to other states as part of an escalation. You think THAT is a good idea?

--Anthony

"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner

"You can lose a quark you don't girth." -Dreamtrove's words to live by, translated by Ipad

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Friday, May 21, 2010 12:11 PM

America loves a winner!

Quote:
Originally posted by AnthonyT:
Hello Auraptor,

I'm not talking about the law, here. I'm talking about shutting off utilities to other states as part of an escalation. You think THAT is a good idea?

--Anthony

OOhh, I misread your post. My bad.

I like the message it sends, in all honesty, but I think the likelihood of AZ ever shutting the switch "off " is next to nil. Though if cities continue this nonsense, it may get interesting.

Bones: "Don't 'rawr' her!"
Booth: "What? she'rawred' me first."

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Friday, May 21, 2010 1:12 PM

Especially if the federal government gets involved, and turns off the federal money spigot to Arizona, which gets between $1000 to $2000 per person MORE from the federal government than they pay in in federal taxes. By the way, that's as of 2005, and should be compared to the "Big Gubmint" Clinton years, when Arizonans usually got less than $300 each in federal money paid to the state. Seems Big Daddy Dubya was big on redistributing the wealth, and a whole lot of it was undeservedly redistributed to Arizona.

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Friday, May 21, 2010 1:38 PM

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...

Waaaa...unfair! Your link didn't come through Anthony! Get it fixed, pleeeze? I LOVE finding out what people look like!

And good on AZ, there's one you can be proud of! You guys have us all beat when it comes to sunshine, I'm tickled PINK to hear they're getting on the bandwagon!

Yeah, Story, it would be a financial hit, you're right. Probably a great way to get them to boycott THEMSELVES, hee, hee, hee, if it were possible. Which it's not, it's a tempest in a teapot.

Aw, Anthony, of COURSE he thinks it’s a good idea...only you’ve got the wrong word “Think”. It’s an indication once again that he DOESN’T, he REACTS without any thought toward the consequences.

On the other hand Pizmo, I have nothing against Arizona, but I find the law they passed reprehensible, offensive and unconscionable. I have no vindictiveness toward them; I just refuse to support them. Funny you should say that about Goldwater; to my shame, I voted for him, and actually, if I were vindictive about that, it would be pretty funny.

California isn’t trying to dictate to Arizona. We’re saying “what you are doing goes against everything this country was founded on and we want nothing to do with it or you.” Like I said, I boycotted tuna, and I’ll only buy one kind of detergent because the rest do animal testing, and buy NO cosmetics for the same reason. That doesn’t mean I have anything against the people who work there, only that I am expressing my rightful opinion on their methods. I have no problem with enforcing the laws against illegal immigrants. If anything, I find it amusing that the law was passed to harass people individually, yet I see no law passed forcing police to go into every factory and check that they aren’t hiring illegals. That they don’t shows it’s racism and not just about illegal immigration. They still want to let people make PROFIT off them, apparently.

By the way, there is no such word as “ironical”, and “yours” and “yous” is plural, not apostrophized. Just sayin’...Also, no, they didn’t pop us right back; one idiot wrote a stupid letter. It WAS a vindictive act, and it means nothing in reality.

Woops, there it is, thanx Anthony. What a great video! You work with Habitat, or did you just do a video on them (I heard something about Wells Fargo)? How’d you come to do that? I love the mosaic thing...and the panels! That foam is cool, too; I’ve never seen that. So many wonderful innovations; I hope the general building industry picks up on them... I think Habitat is fantastic; and what a sense of pride it must give those who work on it.

Yes, Mike; a LOT of AZ’s stuff comes through our ports, and don’t forget about gasoline. That would be a bit of a problem...but as Anthony said, this is all a pissing contest and not really worth fantasizing about. Yup, Wulfwind is serious, as I figured. He doesn’t think, he REACTS...and doesn’t realize that federal law and the AZ law DO differ...dramatically. That doesn’t fit his stance, so it can’t be so. He also, notice, has ignored completely that Arizona ISN’T CAPABLE of shutting anything off, or that it would cost them more than the boycott if they DID. Doesn’t fit what he FEELS, so doesn’t exist. Easy enough.

"I'm just right. Kinda like the sun rising in the east and the world being round...its not a need its just the way it is." The Delusional "Hero", 3/1/10

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Friday, May 21, 2010 1:50 PM

And it always comes back to the way "conservatives" tout freedom, and then the instant they think they have a little power...

The threats come out, the violence, racism, intolerance, sexism, the bitter blind hatred of anything that isn't exactly like them.

They're monsters, all RWAs are, and I do in fact consider it a mental illness (personal opinion only) and a damn dangerous one.

So you can imagine what I think of puttin any of em in political office EVER again.

-F

ETA: Watchin your vid, atm.

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Friday, May 21, 2010 1:57 PM

Freedom is Important because People are Important

"Woops, there it is, thanx Anthony. What a great video! You work with Habitat, or did you just do a video on them (I heard something about Wells Fargo)? How’d you come to do that? I love the mosaic thing...and the panels! That foam is cool, too; I’ve never seen that. So many wonderful innovations; I hope the general building industry picks up on them... I think Habitat is fantastic; and what a sense of pride it must give those who work on it."

Hello,

Glad you like it. That's an abbreviated edit for Youtube. We did about five different cuts of the doc, depending on the 'market.'

Here's how it all went down. A coworker and I got involved in making "Town Hall" videos for the bank's quarterly "Town Hall" meetings for employees. These videos were designed to emphasize whatever the talking points of the meeting were. The company originally angled for dry educational bits, but my coworker and I figured that if you make the things entertaining, someone might actually pay attention to them.

So we did a bunch of 2-5 minute shorts over the course of a year. A Halloween funny about the new company health plans which featured Dracula making inquiries over the phone to a hapless HR representative. An Old West funny featuring a sheriff cautioning the employees to be aware of information phishing and the sanctity of consumer privacy. A Braveheart styled funny about the merger of Wells and Wachovia (modeled after that scene in Braveheart where the Scotts and Irish race together only to shake hands.) Basic business fluff and propaganda with humor thrown in. All the actors were employees, so people got a kick of seeing themselves on camera.

Well, late last year, the company offered time off for employees who wanted to volunteer to build Habitat houses. My coworker comes to me and says, "Hey, let's build a house." And I says, "That sounds like a lot of work. And have you ever seen me attempt physical labor? Get real, Mike. Ask them if we can film it, instead."

Well, the company thought that was a great idea. We ended up putting about 60 hours into the project, as opposed to the 8 hours' worth of swinging hammers at nails that we would've done on a regular volunteer day. My parents were right, I always work harder at being lazy than I would if I just buckled down and did some honest work. A bunch of movies were cut for Wells, highlighting how wonderful they were for donating money and personnel to Habitat for Humanity. A bunch of movies were cut for Habitat, highlighting the positive effects of Habitat for Humanity. A bunch were cut for the suppliers who donated materials, highlighting how wonderful they were for donating. And then there was a generic brief cut for youtube, as a general showcase of everything.

I have to admit I felt rather nice about being involved in the project, even if I only ever held a tool for effect. Habitat for Humanity is an aces organization.

--Anthony

"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner

"You can lose a quark you don't girth." -Dreamtrove's words to live by, translated by Ipad

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Friday, May 21, 2010 2:02 PM

America loves a winner!

Quote:
Originally posted by Fremdfirma:
And it always comes back to the way "conservatives" tout freedom, and then the instant they think they have a little power...

The threats come out, the violence, racism, intolerance, sexism, the bitter blind hatred of anything that isn't exactly like them.

And there's not one iota of evidence to support your mindless, irrational and so very tiresome / predictable rant ...

The list you so gleefully attribute to the Right actually is far, FAR more suited for the Left.

What AZ is standing up for is the rule of law. Plain and simple.

Bones: "Don't 'rawr' her!"
Booth: "What? she'rawred' me first."

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Friday, May 21, 2010 2:05 PM

That rocks, Anthony, nice work on the documentary, and damn good job of it on behalf of H4H, our "office", a decomissioned school which was in rough shape, was reconditioned by us in a similar fashion.

Although there *IS* one glaring environmental flaw in the design and construction there - don't even let that thing catch fire, cause many of those materials can be VERY flammable under ordinary conditions and are extremely toxic when on fire.

That's something which should be addressed, the idea of using less potentially toxic insulation materials - oh, and our water heater isn't common or glycol, it's based on a Stirling engine, running off the differential between the ground and one of the roof panels.

-F

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Friday, May 21, 2010 2:07 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:
And there's not one iota of evidence to support your mindless, irrational and so very tiresome / predictable rant ...

Dude, your existence, and damn near everything that ever comes out of your mouth supports it, which is why I pointed out a long time ago, I don't *need* a strawman, you are your own sides worst enemy.

-F

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Friday, May 21, 2010 2:14 PM

America loves a winner!

Quote:
Originally posted by Fremdfirma:
Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:
And there's not one iota of evidence to support your mindless, irrational and so very tiresome / predictable rant ...

Dude, your existence, and damn near everything that ever comes out of your mouth supports it, which is why I pointed out a long time ago, I don't *need* a strawman, you are your own sides worst enemy.

-F

Another empty retort from you.

Gets old. Very.

Bones: "Don't 'rawr' her!"
Booth: "What? she'rawred' me first."

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Friday, May 21, 2010 2:15 PM

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...

Pretty much, Frem, pretty much! I'd ask him to back up what he wrote, but I know he can't, even if he wanted to, which he doesn't. He can spout all the FauxNews talking points and his own beliefs he wants, based on nothing, then just hurl epithets and snark at anyone who disagrees without backing up anything.

Works for him. People who want to engage in honest discussions, not so much.

Ah, I see the usual retort has been posted. Lessee, Crappy: YOUR retorts aren't equally empty? Only if you're self-deluded. For one thing, you keep posting that the AZ law does nothing more than the federal law: Untrue. And that it does nothing but uphold the law: Untrue. Wanna back either one up, rather than make empty statements?

"I'm just right. Kinda like the sun rising in the east and the world being round...its not a need its just the way it is." The Delusional "Hero", 3/1/10

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Friday, May 21, 2010 2:21 PM

Freedom is Important because People are Important

"Although there *IS* one glaring environmental flaw in the design and construction there - don't even let that thing catch fire, cause many of those materials can be VERY flammable under ordinary conditions and are extremely toxic when on fire.

That's something which should be addressed, the idea of using less potentially toxic insulation materials - oh, and our water heater isn't common or glycol, it's based on a Stirling engine, running off the differential between the ground and one of the roof panels."

Hey Frem,

You have some salient points there. There was another green build done right next door, with vastly different construction techniques which I consider superior. I privately wished I'd had the opportunity to document that house instead of the one we filmed. Unfortunately, it was fully finished by the time I got involved. One of the constraints habitat is under is "Who's willing to donate stuff, what are they willing to donate, and how much are they willing to donate?" That's why two houses next door to each other, even though they were both 'green' and featured 'energy conservation,' had vastly different materials.

The house next door had all cement walls built with some kind of spacing that encouraged energy conservation as a nature of the shape of the material and the way it encapsulated air pockets. Instead of big panels on the roof, each roof tile had its own imbedded solar energy collector. Instead of circulating glycol to the roof for the water heater, their heater circulated the water itself to the roof panel. The driveway wasn't made of discarded cement tiles, but it was fascinating. It was some kind of poured cement, but it was completely porous, and you could turn a hose on it and the water would shoot right through it instantly with no runoff. Under the driveway, channels directed water throughout the lawn. It all amazed me.

--Anthony

"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner

"You can lose a quark you don't girth." -Dreamtrove's words to live by, translated by Ipad

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Friday, May 21, 2010 2:43 PM

Anthony, if we spent even a quarter what we do on war toys and the related R&D on this stuff, the world would be a much better place to live in.

I wish to hell other people would see that.

-F

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Friday, May 21, 2010 2:56 PM

Freedom is Important because People are Important

Quote:
Originally posted by Fremdfirma:

Anthony, if we spent even a quarter what we do on war toys and the related R&D on this stuff, the world would be a much better place to live in.

I wish to hell other people would see that.

-F

Hello,

Can't argue with you there, Frem.

The main reason I support the space program has nothing to do with space, or a desire to explore, or a desire for resources, or a solution to population, or any of that.

It's because when we beat our heads against a challenge that seems unconquerable, we develop the coolest things. If we develop those cool things for the military, then only the military tends to benefit. But if we develop those cool things in an (ostensibly) civilian service, everyone gets access to it much sooner.

Explore the deepest trenches of the ocean. Explore the furthest reaches of the sky. Explore the whole of what is possible. Find the limits, and wonder why. Along the way, we'll build the sorts of miracles that can be reproduced at will.

I sometimes wonder how much longer computers would have continued to fill entire rooms if we didn't find it useful to shrink the things so we could hurl them into space. But that's only one thing and something obvious. I probably can't count the number of inventions we've created in the process of doing what can't be done.

--Anthony

"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner

"You can lose a quark you don't girth." -Dreamtrove's words to live by, translated by Ipad

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Saturday, May 22, 2010 2:21 AM

America loves a winner!

Quote:
Originally posted by Niki2:

Ah, I see the usual retort has been posted. Lessee, Crappy: YOUR retorts aren't equally empty? Only if you're self-deluded. For one thing, you keep posting that the AZ law does nothing more than the federal law: Untrue. And that it does nothing but uphold the law: Untrue. Wanna back either one up, rather than make empty statements?

The backing up is in the true statement which I gave. There's nothing in the AZ law which isn't already in the Federal law with respect to non citizens carrying some form of proper I.D.

The burden of proof lies on you to show where the A.Z. law exceeds that, or in any way violates anyone's civil rights. It doesn't. Much like Eric Holder , Janet Napolitano and likely Obama, you're just mouthing off about that which you have NO clue.

Bones: "Don't 'rawr' her!"
Booth: "What? she'rawred' me first."

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Saturday, May 22, 2010 5:13 AM

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...

I like the idea of that second house much better and it sounds much more sensible, Anthony. I realize they have to make do with what they have, but I wonder if they couldn't put more serious effort into attracting donors of the better products...which I'll bet they do, it's just a thought.

I've never heard of individual solar panels used tht way; I wish more would, that sounds great!

I agree with what Frem said as well.

Raptor: The Arizona law tells police they HAVE to check some kind of quota or they can be sued for not doing so; that leaves the police open to lawsuits depending on what any individual citizen believes is "sufficient".

The Arizona law states that if someone doesn't have papers on their person when asked, they are jailed until such proof can be shown, and even when it is, are subject to fine and possibly jail time for not having the papers on their person immediately when asked.

The federal law does neither of these things. Those are some of the ways they differ. There may be more, but those are the ones to which I object and which I believe go against the civil rights of CITIZENS and endanger their freedom.

The Arizona law also gives police more freedom to find any excuse to ask for papers if they want to, and there are racists and irresponsible police in every police force; this allows those who are to exercise their racism uncontested. I believe the federal law doesn't require police to ask for papers on any pretext they can find.

The above are all written clearly in the AZ law, and they show how the law violates the civil rights of naturalized citizens, legal green-card holders and regular citizens. That answers your insistence that it does not.

I read the Arizona law, so saying I have "no clue" and the rest of that snark are unnecessary. I would put up the direct quotes, but I think I have, or someone else has, previously. I'm not willing to go over both laws to find any other differences which might exist. I've made these points many times; you continue to state both laws are the same. It seems useless to keep repeating the facts.

I have now shown how the two laws differ, how the AZ law exceeds the federal one, and how it endangers the civil rights of American citizens. So the onus is on YOU to prove those facts wrong.

"I'm just right. Kinda like the sun rising in the east and the world being round...its not a need its just the way it is." The Delusional "Hero", 3/1/10

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Monday, May 24, 2010 3:05 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by AnthonyT:
Obviously Arizona has the right to boycott itself on behalf of other states. However, that doesn't make it the intelligent thing to do. Also, if the state of California has a business interest in the power companies, then they are entitled to a percentage of the power no matter what Arizona the state might like to say about it.

No they don't. They are minority shareholders. They can't control any more of the company they hold interest in then I can in Rite Aid (RAD) despite my several thousand dollar investment. If they don't like what the business chooses to do, they can sell their interest OR aquire a larger interest so that they own a majority stake in the company.

Perhaps its not intellegent for Arizona to not sell to LA. However I have noticed that both electricity and fresh water are in demand, so I suspect they will manage to find a buyer.

LA chose to boycott Arizona. LA started it, it makes no sense for you to somehow blame Arizona for reacting.

H

H

"Hero. I have come to respect you." "I am forced to agree with Hero here."- Chrisisall, 2009.

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Monday, May 24, 2010 3:19 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Niki2:
so you’re in favor of Arizona breaking the law and denying shareholders in its companies electricity? That’s a good one.

Do you folks have no idea how corporations work?

Lets say you and I go into business together and form a company where I own 51% and you own 49%. You and I are individuals who have created a third independent entity under our control, an entity that can own property, enter contracts, etc. Guess who makes ALL the decisions including banning you from doing business with our company? Me. The Majority owner makes the decisions.

Your remedy? Sue, you lose because I own more then you. Tresspass or take from the business without my permission, you got to jail because you have no legal right to either enter onto the property or take anything if I say you don't. Buy me out, yes if I'm willing, no if I'm not. Close the business, nope, not without my permission. Let me buy you out, up to me, can't force it. Sell to a third party, that you can do.

Naturally as the minority partner you'd want to address these things in the by-laws at the start, otherwise you are pretty screwed. If you buy in later, the rules are already set and can't be changed without my agreement.

Lets say our company owns 100 resturants. By your understanding you get to control 49 of them and I get the other 51. Nope. Buy owning 51% of the company I control every one of them. If you play nice I might decide to let you in one. If you play mean I might decide to forgo profit sharing and instead hire myself as President at a huge salary.

The lesson here is to look before you leap.

H

"Hero. I have come to respect you." "I am forced to agree with Hero here."- Chrisisall, 2009.

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Monday, May 24, 2010 3:28 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko:
Oh, look - "Hero" thinks he's British Petroleum!

I wish! I'd make a great international oil company.

First, off I'd let everyone know that I'm committing $15 Billion to the cleanup efforts and a billion each to Texas, Louisiana, Mississippi, and Florida. Screw Alabama. Four installments paid over the next four business quarters.

Second, I'd ask for my campaign contributions back from everybody putting the money in a special projects fund for research into new technology to both prevent spills and clean them up.

Last, I'd blame Greenpeace (and other enviromental groups) for sabotage. I'd include the various threats they've made and the history of eco-terrorism such as the ramming attempts to disable Japanese whalers, blowing up car dealerships, burining down houses, etc.

Then I would take a swim in my pool filled with money.

H

"Hero. I have come to respect you." "I am forced to agree with Hero here."- Chrisisall, 2009.

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Monday, May 24, 2010 3:52 AM

PIZMOBEACH

... fully loaded, safety off...

Quote:
Originally posted by Niki2:

On the other hand Pizmo, I have nothing against Arizona, but I find the law they passed reprehensible, offensive and unconscionable. I have no vindictiveness toward them; I just refuse to support them. Funny you should say that about Goldwater; to my shame, I voted for him, and actually, if I were vindictive about that, it would be pretty funny.

In another thread on this subject you invoked Goldwater "remember, they (AZ) gave us Goldwater" so it seemed like you had an ax to grind with him and the state.

The law, like a lot of laws, and whether it is any of the things you describe, really depends on how it is applied. There are plenty of laws that are paper tigers, they sit on the books so they can be enforced if necessary. So maybe "reprehensible, offensive and unconscionable." We'll see if it goes into effect on July 29th.

One thing I will not back down on though, and I'm quite shocked by your position on this... "ironical" is most definitely a word.

BOOK
'fraid I might be needin' a preacher.

MAL
That's good. You just lie there and
be ironical.

Scifi movie music + Firefly dialogue clips, 24 hours a day - http://www.scifiradio.com

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Monday, May 24, 2010 4:16 AM

SHINYGOODGUY

Time to weigh in:

If Arizona is pushing for a police state they are going in the right direction.

It's tatamount to legalized racial profiling.

This is gonna be interesting because it will pit neighbor against neighbor, let the fun begin.

So, let's see if I have this straight: as long as the police have reasonable cause they could stop, search and detain anyone they, or any citizen, suspect may be illegally living in Arizona. They must produce proof, on the spot, of their residency status or get locked up.

Oh yeah, that's gonna work - real good! I could see it now, cops deputizing John Q to help conduct search and detain missions. Dodge City here we come.

There are gonna be some upset citizens in Sun Devil country come July. I could see the lawsuits a coming in the distance. Well, one thing for sure, the courts and morgues will be busy. One plus though, the legal profession will have a boom in that state; lawyers, legal secretaries and paralegal hirings will be on the rise.

Oh, I almost forgot, the NRA will also have a boom in membership. This is a gun dealer's dream.
It will be business as usual, I suspect.

SGG

Tawabawho?

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Monday, May 24, 2010 5:01 AM

PIZMOBEACH

... fully loaded, safety off...

Quote:
Originally posted by Shinygoodguy:
Time to weigh in:

If Arizona is pushing for a police state they are going in the right direction.

It's tatamount to legalized racial profiling.

No offense SGG, or anyone else who thinks this, but this is a bogus conclusion imho.

Racial profiling is hated because it's been used in situations where anyone could have committed a crime and yet the police were seen to go after only one race. But in this case even people who hate this law agree that this is a crime being committed by one race. Should we stop asians? Should we set-up equal race quotas and quadruple the cops workload? If people are so worried about harassing innocent US citizens then how about all the black US citizens that would be harassed for no reason?

It gets worse... you AZ haters, here's something else to fuel your anger... I went to wikipedia to see what the technical def of racial profiling was:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Racial_profiling

"Racial profiling refers to the "use by law enforcement personnel of an individual’s race or ethnicity as a factor in articulating reasonable suspicion to stop, question or arrest an individual, unless race or ethnicity is part of an identifying description of a specific suspect for a specific crime." [1]"

Wow, that last part seems to back up what I was thinking... almost too much... almost suspiciously so... checking out the contributor [1}:

"Report on Racial Profiling". Office of the Arizona Attorney General; Civil Right Division and Office of Intergovernmental Affairs. Retrieved 2010-05-11.

Yeah, this is going to get messy.

Scifi movie music + Firefly dialogue clips, 24 hours a day - http://www.scifiradio.com

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Monday, May 24, 2010 5:27 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Hero:
Quote:
Originally posted by AnthonyT:
Obviously Arizona has the right to boycott itself on behalf of other states. However, that doesn't make it the intelligent thing to do. Also, if the state of California has a business interest in the power companies, then they are entitled to a percentage of the power no matter what Arizona the state might like to say about it.

No they don't. They are minority shareholders. They can't control any more of the company they hold interest in then I can in Rite Aid (RAD) despite my several thousand dollar investment. If they don't like what the business chooses to do, they can sell their interest OR aquire a larger interest so that they own a majority stake in the company.

Perhaps its not intellegent for Arizona to not sell to LA. However I have noticed that both electricity and fresh water are in demand, so I suspect they will manage to find a buyer.

LA chose to boycott Arizona. LA started it, it makes no sense for you to somehow blame Arizona for reacting.

One assumes that the state of California has certain contracts spelled out with the Arizona power generation companies that they are part owners of. Are you suggesting that such contracts should be null and void if one party decides they don't feel like living up to their end of the contract?

Are there similar contracts binding Los Angeles to hold conventions or meetings in Arizona? If so, Arizona can try to sue California for breach of contract. If you don't have a signed contract saying I'm holding my convention in your state, I'm under no obligation to do so. If I have a signed contract stating that you agree to sell me X amount of electricity at X dollars, then you DO have an obligation to live up to the contract.

Mike

"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence [sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero, Real World Event Discussions

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Monday, May 24, 2010 5:33 AM