It's worse than we know by AURaptor

America loves a winner!

I have to credit CNN.

Their coverage is so wall to wall on this, I've had to turn it off.

Too damn depressing to see everyone ( BP, Gov't ) point fingers, make promises and literally N O T H I N G is being done. The marshes, the wetlands in LA are dying. No boats out there for weeks on end, nothing being done, they won't allow LA to at least TRY to save her shoreline.....

Bones: "Don't 'rawr' her!"
Booth: "What? she'rawred' me first."

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Wednesday, May 26, 2010 12:16 PM

CHRISISALL

Bye to the Gulf wildlife...

The laughing Chrisisall

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Wednesday, May 26, 2010 12:20 PM

STORYMARK

Pretty much a cluster-fuck of epic proportions on all fronts.

"I thoroughly disapprove of duels. If a man should challenge me, I would take him kindly and forgivingly by the hand and lead him to a quiet place and kill him."

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Wednesday, May 26, 2010 12:33 PM

America loves a winner!

Louisiana Native and Chief political aid to President Bill Clinton and Hillary Clinton, has had it with the President. In a newsclip, viewed on CTV Televison today, he angrily told Obama: Man put somebody in charge, we're dieing down here.

Last Thursday, he told CNNs Anderson Cooper that the administration's response to the spill has been "lackadaisical" and that Obama was "naive" to trust BP to manage the massive clean-up effort.

"I think they actually believe that BP has some kind of a good motivation here," he said. "They're naive! BP is trying to save money, save everything they can... They won't tell us anything, and oddly enough, the government seems to be going along with it! Somebody has got to, like shake them and say, 'These people don't wish you well! They're going to take you down!'"

"I'm as good a Democrat as most people, and I think this administration has done some good things. They are risking everything by this 'go along with BP' strategy they have that seems like, lackadaisical on this, and Doug is right, they seem like they're inconvenienced by this, this is some giant thing getting in their way and somehow or another, if you let BP handle it, it'll all go away. It's not going away. It's growing out there. It is a disaster of the first magnitude, and they've got to go to Plan B.

"Chris Matthews, who is a staunch Obama reporter is quoted as saying:

"The President scares me," he said. "When is he actually going to do something? And I worry; I know he doesn't want to take ownership of it. I know politics. He said the minute he says, 'I'm in charge,' he takes the blame, but somebody has to. It's in our interest."

*edit * - Just saw the CEO of BP come on and give a brief update on the top kill progress. It was a piece of pure fiction. If you ever get a chance to see a video clip, you'd swear you were watching some bad BBC sci-fi flick. He gave less than any level of competence or believability. Essentially he said, it'd be 24 hours before we know anything, and that any increase or decrease in the plume of oil shooting out shouldn't be seen as any indication that it is or isn't working. ( 'shooting' is my word )

Watch Anderson Cooper's 360 tonight..... everyone.

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Wednesday, May 26, 2010 12:45 PM

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)

So you think the government should be in charge of fixing the corporations fuck-ups, huh?

You want Obama to take the blame, take the responsibility, FOR BP'S DISASTER. And it's not like you or your buddies would EVER try to run on the sound bite of him taking the blame, right?

What is it that you imagine the government CAN do in this case? What expertise do you expect the federal government to have to cap a well, protect a shoreline from sludge in the water?

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Wednesday, May 26, 2010 12:53 PM

America loves a winner!

Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko:
So you think the government should be in charge of fixing the corporations fuck-ups, huh?

I think you should go fuck yourself, is what I think.

The Federal Gov't is showing it can't handled -anything. Billions of our tax $$'s, and what do we get ? All the bureaucracies, all the agencies, all the dept. heads and all the mountains of regulations have amounted to dick.

NOTHING is going on in the way of protection or prevention of the marsh lands. Not by the Gov't, not by the Coast Guard, no one is doing a god damn thing, save for the locals who were completely deluged with this disaster.

Bones: "Don't 'rawr' her!"
Booth: "What? she'rawred' me first."

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Wednesday, May 26, 2010 12:56 PM

Freedom is Important because People are Important

Hello,

I am observing two things here:

1) The anti-Obama camp has figured out that this is a Katrina-Plus problem that has the potential to smear the President in a more profound way than the levies, property damage, police actions, government inactions, and deaths in Louisiana smeared Bush.

2) They are right. This is a major ecological disaster. It could change life in the ocean, the coast, and even parts of Europe depending on where the Gulf stream spreads the wealth.

--Anthony

"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner

"You can lose a quark you don't girth." -Dreamtrove's words to live by, translated by Ipad

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Wednesday, May 26, 2010 12:59 PM

STORYMARK

Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko:
So you think the government should be in charge of fixing the corporations fuck-ups, huh?

You want Obama to take the blame, take the responsibility, FOR BP'S DISASTER. And it's not like you or your buddies would EVER try to run on the sound bite of him taking the blame, right?

What is it that you imagine the government CAN do in this case? What expertise do you expect the federal government to have to cap a well, protect a shoreline from sludge in the water?

And had Obama taken over sooner, Rappy would have been screamin' about communism and squashing free enterprise....

"I thoroughly disapprove of duels. If a man should challenge me, I would take him kindly and forgivingly by the hand and lead him to a quiet place and kill him."

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Wednesday, May 26, 2010 1:02 PM

America loves a winner!

It's not so much anti-Obama, but anti Federal Gov't. It's inept beyond comprehension.

There are literally no haz-mat boats, workers, ANYTHING going on in the wetlands.

Where there should be boaters, fisherman and birds, there is nothing.

Nothing but dead grass and oil soaked wetlands.
It's quiet. Still. Dead.

And it's only going to get worse.

A lot worse.

Bones: "Don't 'rawr' her!"
Booth: "What? she'rawred' me first."

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Wednesday, May 26, 2010 1:05 PM

WHOZIT

Quote:
Originally posted by Storymark:
Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko:
So you think the government should be in charge of fixing the corporations fuck-ups, huh?

You want Obama to take the blame, take the responsibility, FOR BP'S DISASTER. And it's not like you or your buddies would EVER try to run on the sound bite of him taking the blame, right?

What is it that you imagine the government CAN do in this case? What expertise do you expect the federal government to have to cap a well, protect a shoreline from sludge in the water?

And had Obama taken over sooner, Rappy would have been screamin' about communism and squashing free enterprise....

"I thoroughly disapprove of duels. If a man should challenge me, I would take him kindly and forgivingly by the hand and lead him to a quiet place and kill him."

"Had taken over sooner"?! He hasn't taken over YET!! Don't belive me, go ask "James Carville".

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Wednesday, May 26, 2010 1:05 PM

America loves a winner!

Quote:
Originally posted by Storymark:

And had Obama taken over sooner, Rappy would have been screamin' about communism and squashing free enterprise....

Only Obama hasn't the balls to take on something this big. He's no leader. He's a fucking bureaucratic pussy, and it shows. He'll instead fly, clear across the country, to attend a pep rally for another inept, corrupt politician, just like the ones he wants to keep , back in D.C.

Then he'll take his family ( because that's all that really matters to this coward ) on that "promised " holiday weekend, back home.

No problem, PrezBO. We got this....

This IS Obama's Katrina.....only it's 10,000,000 x's worse !!!!

Bones: "Don't 'rawr' her!"
Booth: "What? she'rawred' me first."

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Wednesday, May 26, 2010 1:07 PM

I'm in the environmental clean-up industry, and honestly, even back when it first went up there really wasn't anything I could think of that could handle a spill of this magnitude.

This shit's visible from SPACE, I mean, the demands are like trying to tell Rio Tinto to fill in and remediate their open pit Kennecott Copper Mine in a couple weeks. Damn thing displaced two whole 2,000-ish foot tall mountains. With the Deep Horizon Plume we're talking even MORE surface area impacted, about as deep, and even WORSE concentration levels, and Kennecott took almost a CENTURY to get like it is. This happened in a couple weeks!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kennecott_Copper_Mine

(See the tiny trucks in the picture? Those things are 40 feet TALL. I'm talking goddamn Jawa SANDCRAWLERS)

The only thing I could think of you COULD feasibly do is try to stop the source, and nothings worked, and I don't even think BP is TRYING.

>_> And I have a horrible suspicion that not ONLY is there coddling because of the Obama BP connection, and not ONLY is there poor maintenance and management by BP Halliburton (and the other company) and not ONLY was the explosion probably the result of an intentional accident to manipulate oil prices that went out of control... This bullshit may be being used to cover up an Obama scandal. I think if I say what I think it is people are going to light me on fire and chase me out of here.

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Wednesday, May 26, 2010 1:13 PM

Freedom is Important because People are Important

Hello,

Ten million times worse may be hyperbolic, but it's pretty bad.

BP has delayed their solution 2-3 times already. It is indeed time to call a state of emergency on this mess and start mobilizing everything available to contain the spill and protect the coast as much as possible.

This does NOT free BP from their responsibility, but when someone isn't able to meet their responsibilities, we don't have a choice but to step in. The alternative is a Dead Zone. And in fact, some kind of Dead Zone is inevitable. But we do need to break our backs to minimize it.

I'll add that the government needs to figure out what the citizens can do to help. When the citizens of this nation are given a goal, "Donate X" or "Send Y" they do it. The generosity and impact can be astounding. We just need to know what is needed.

--Anthony

"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner

"You can lose a quark you don't girth." -Dreamtrove's words to live by, translated by Ipad

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Wednesday, May 26, 2010 1:17 PM

STORYMARK

Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:

This IS Obama's Katrina.....only it's 10,000,000 x's worse !!!!

And you denied your desire to be able to say that. Thanks for living up to the very worst things about your vile personality.

Thanks for making my point though - no matter the result, you just want to use this to bitch about Obama. If Bush had done the same thing, you'd be sucking his dick over it.

"I thoroughly disapprove of duels. If a man should challenge me, I would take him kindly and forgivingly by the hand and lead him to a quiet place and kill him."

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Wednesday, May 26, 2010 1:20 PM

America loves a winner!

Quote:
Originally posted by Storymark:
Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:

This IS Obama's Katrina.....only it's 10,000,000 x's worse !!!!

And you denied your desire to be able to say that. Thanks for living up to the very worst things about your vile personality.

Thanks for making my point though - no matter the result, you just want to use this to bitch about Obama. If Bush had done the same thing, you'd be sucking his dick over it.

If you've any level of human decency in you,and aren't a complete coward, you'll watch CNN tonight, Anderson Cooper 360.

I suspect there is none, of course, but maybe you can find some. Or borrow some ,if you must.

Bones: "Don't 'rawr' her!"
Booth: "What? she'rawred' me first."

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Wednesday, May 26, 2010 1:21 PM

WHOZIT

Maybe world will end in 2012, and if it does the last words Barry will read off the telepromter will be, This is the fault of the "Bush" administration.........BOOM!

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Wednesday, May 26, 2010 1:23 PM

Freedom is Important because People are Important

Hello,

I am absolutely positive this will be spun into an anti-Obama angle. I was seeing the trend starting a few days ago, actually. That's not really a bad thing, if it results in a massive mobilization to do something. If Obama feels threatened politically and starts moving Heaven and Earth to battle this disaster, then it's win-win.

--Anthony

"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner

"You can lose a quark you don't girth." -Dreamtrove's words to live by, translated by Ipad

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Wednesday, May 26, 2010 1:35 PM

WHOZIT

Quote:
Originally posted by AnthonyT:
Hello,

I am absolutely positive this will be spun into an anti-Obama angle. I was seeing the trend starting a few days ago, actually. That's not really a bad thing, if it results in a massive mobilization to do something. If Obama feels threatened politically and starts moving Heaven and Earth to battle this disaster, then it's win-win.

--Anthony

"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner

"You can lose a quark you don't girth." -Dreamtrove's words to live by, translated by Ipad

Ofcourse it'll be spun into an anti-Obama angle, can you tell me how it can be spun as pro-Obama? He's jacked off too long now. He's in California raising money for that twit Boxer while NIKI2 is in the Gulf wiping oil off rocks with stray kittys! FYY, NIKI2 posted thread saying fur is best to clean oil off rocks. Look it up.

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Wednesday, May 26, 2010 2:12 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:
Quote:
Originally posted by Storymark:

And had Obama taken over sooner, Rappy would have been screamin' about communism and squashing free enterprise....

Only Obama hasn't the balls to take on something this big. He's no leader. He's a fucking bureaucratic pussy, and it shows. He'll instead fly, clear across the country, to attend a pep rally for another inept, corrupt politician, just like the ones he wants to keep , back in D.C.

Eh-heh. Yeah, nobody has EVER done anything like that in the face of a disaster in Louisiana, have they?

Quote:

Then he'll take his family ( because that's all that really matters to this coward ) on that "promised " holiday weekend, back home.

Again, this has NEVER been done. Not during Katrina, certainly.

Quote:

This IS Obama's Katrina.....only it's 10,000,000 x's worse !!!!

Not until 10,000,000,000-plus people die, it isn't.

Make up your mind, you feckless fuckwit. You're just babbling incoherently at this point. Not that this is a new thing for you, of course...

YOU want the federal government out of everything, because you say they can't "handled" anything. And because they're out of this, you're bitching that they can't "handled" it.

And if they stepped in and "handled" it, you'd bitch about that, too, because it might (god forbid!) COST MONEY. BP caused this disaster, 100%, it's all theirs, and they need to goddamned fix it, NOW. Sorry to break the bad news to you, but the best people at being able to fix this kind of thing work for... THE OIL INDUSTRY! They don't work for the government; they don't work for the military. They work where they can make the most money. And that this is beyond their abilities tells you all you need to know about you and your fucking idiots' "Drill, Baby, Drill" bullshit chant. If you can't fix the spill, you can't drill, baby.

This is the obvious and unavoidable result of YOUR party's positions and campaign platform. Suck it. You wanted it, now you've got it. All you can fucking eat.

Mike

"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence [sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero, Real World Event Discussions

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Wednesday, May 26, 2010 2:36 PM

Freedom is Important because People are Important

Hello Mike,

It really doesn't matter who did it before or who'll do it next. We're doing it now.

The oil companies might have the expertise, but they clearly haven't invested in the resources. I'll be happy to have BP offer their good advice on how to stop the leak and clean the spill, but we can't wait for them do get around to doing it themselves. Rather, the full might of this nation needs to be brought upon this disaster. We can compute the bill and send it to BP later. I think we'll end up owning all of BP's operations, frankly.

--Anthony

"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner

"You can lose a quark you don't girth." -Dreamtrove's words to live by, translated by Ipad

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Wednesday, May 26, 2010 2:53 PM

Freedom is Important because People are Important

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100526/ap_on_bi_ge/us_gulf_oil_spill

Hello,

I'll keep my fingers crossed. It's already terrible, but maybe it won't get any worse.

--Anthony

"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner

"You can lose a quark you don't girth." -Dreamtrove's words to live by, translated by Ipad

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Wednesday, May 26, 2010 3:09 PM

Here's the problem you're going to run into, Anthony. And I'm sorry if you don't like it, but this is the way it's going to go.

Government steps in, BP walks away, shrugs, says "We had it under control. We were just about to get it handled. They came in and took over, and screwed it up, and that's where it all went wrong." They'll say that in court, to try to weasel out of responsibility, to try to muddy the blame, pass it off as a chain-of-custody kind of issue, claiming that once the government took over, the government also took responsibility.

And all it takes is one judge to agree, and the government's on the hook for the whole shebang.

Add to that the fact that if Obama spends one thin dime of government money on this goddamned mess, he's going to have the Republicans up his ass about it, just the way they've been up his ass about every fucking dime he's spent up til now.

As I said before, the free market dipshits wanted this. They've got their wish. They should say "Thank you, Mister President. We'll handle it from here." Instead they come whining like a bunch of pussies, begging - no, DEMANDING - that the government they hate so fucking much should now save their stupid asses. And, as always, they want US to pay for the privilege of bailing their stupid fucking corporate asses out. Fuck 'em. They wanted no part of our regulations and oversight. They did this to us. We did not do this to them.

I say horseshit. Not until we get some things straight. We'll help, if you can convince BP to *ASK* for our help. In public, on TV, for all to see. We'll take over, but BP will sign paperwork indicating that they are absolved of no responsibility at all. And they'll proclaim so on TV, too. And they'll ask us, in public, to enact tougher regulations and oversight. And they'll make it abundantly clear to all that THEY are going to pay for every red cent of cleanup, for disaster relief, for damages, for making people's lives whole again, for lost wages and livelihood, and for whatever other incidental costs are incurred because of their fuck-up. And then, and ONLY then, will we put the full force and might of this nation to this task.

And until such time as every single penny is paid, BP will be in receivership in this country. Their company will have liens placed against its assets here. If they don't like it, fuck 'em. Let THEM fix the fucking problem they caused.

Mike

"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence [sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero, Real World Event Discussions

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Wednesday, May 26, 2010 3:26 PM

Freedom is Important because People are Important

Hello Mike,

That's all very rightous and whatnot, but it doesn't get the problem licked any faster. BP has no motivation to make the kinds of public requests and statements you suggest.

However, I have seen this government perform startling acts the past in order to punish corporations for wrongdoing. Retroactive taxes and imposed wage adjustments on contracts already signed and bonuses already promised. This, by the vote of our representatives. Are you really suggesting that this same government would throw up their hands and let BP walk away scott free because of a 'chain of custody' issue during a National Emergency?

In any event, it doesn't matter. The only way this mess is getting cleaned up is if everyone helps. It's just too big to wait for their 1,000 guys with toothbrushes and toxic squirt guns to rake it all in. The affected area is larger than lots of countries. BP doesn't have anywhere near the manpower available to handle this. They may or may not ask for help, but they're certainly going to need it. And time is of the essence.

--Anthony

"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner

"You can lose a quark you don't girth." -Dreamtrove's words to live by, translated by Ipad

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Wednesday, May 26, 2010 4:00 PM

Quote:
Posted by Rappy:

The Federal Gov't is showing it can't handled -anything. Billions of our tax $$'s, and what do we get ? All the bureaucracies, all the agencies, all the dept. heads and all the mountains of regulations have amounted to dick.

It's not so much anti-Obama, but anti Federal Gov't. It's inept beyond comprehension.

So you finally agree that the federal government is incompetent. Thank you for FINALLY admitting that they completely fucked the dog on Katrina, 9/11, Afghanistan, Tora Bora, Iraq, etc. It's about time you owned up to that. We've been telling you that for years. Of course, we've also been telling you that corporations aren't the saviors of mankind, but you wouldn't listen to us on that, either. Maybe now you will.

Doubtful.

You'll continue to blame Obama for BP's clusterfuck of a megadisaster, just like you blamed Clinton for 9/11 and Iraq.

You *SAY* it's not about Obama, and it's not anti-Obama, but you just can't resist going on long rants about him, can you?

You're suffering Obama Derangement Syndrome. It's clouding your judgment. Well, not that you've ever had any judgment to cloud, but still...

Mike

"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence [sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero, Real World Event Discussions

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Wednesday, May 26, 2010 4:11 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by AnthonyT:
Hello Mike,

That's all very rightous and whatnot, but it doesn't get the problem licked any faster. BP has no motivation to make the kinds of public requests and statements you suggest.

However, I have seen this government perform startling acts the past in order to punish corporations for wrongdoing. Retroactive taxes and imposed wage adjustments on contracts already signed and bonuses already promised. This, by the vote of our representatives. Are you really suggesting that this same government would throw up their hands and let BP walk away scott free because of a 'chain of custody' issue during a National Emergency?

In any event, it doesn't matter. The only way this mess is getting cleaned up is if everyone helps. It's just too big to wait for their 1,000 guys with toothbrushes and toxic squirt guns to rake it all in. The affected area is larger than lots of countries. BP doesn't have anywhere near the manpower available to handle this. They may or may not ask for help, but they're certainly going to need it. And time is of the essence.

--Anthony

"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner

"You can lose a quark you don't girth." -Dreamtrove's words to live by, translated by Ipad

Okay, what do you suggest?

WHO do you want to cap the well? HOW do you want them to do that? Everyone seems to think it's easy. Why are none of those people actually down there trying to do it?

As for clean-up, what are you proposing? BP offered some of the locals jobs helping clean up, but first they had to sign waivers promising not to sue BP for, well, ANYTHING. Who do you want to put workers on the job? Who do you want paying them? *IS* this a job that only the federal government can do? *IS* this the kind of thing that everyone would be happy to spend stimulus money to get done, even if it puts us deeper into deficits and deeper into debt?

Or is it the kind of thing that some will support one minute, and then try to turn to their political advantage the next? Remember Bobby Jindal, who didn't want the government "wasting money" on ridiculous things like volcano monitoring? Do you suppose he'd have a different take now that the "volcano" is off his shore, and the "lava" it's gushing out is oil? Do you think he's against federal spending NOW?

Any of you married men here, you probably know how this goes. You fight with your wife, you argue, you disagree, and you want to move on and get past it. So you go, "So anyways, what are we doing tonight?" And she gives you *that look*. You know the one. Yeah. You're not getting past it that easy, are you? Nope - you've gotta apologize first.

This is what we have here. We have people who have been calling Obama every vile name in the book, and now they're screaming at him - not pleading with him, not asking him, but SCREAMING AT HIM - "Why won't you help us?!" But what you don't hear is the last half of that question: "... make political points at your expense?"

So while nobody seems to have any solid PLAN, or any concrete idea of WHAT to do, they're still going to go on screaming that Obama should DO SOMETHING. In other words, they're mad at him for doing nothing when the situation clearly calls for panic.

Mike

"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence [sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero, Real World Event Discussions

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Wednesday, May 26, 2010 4:32 PM

Freedom is Important because People are Important

Hello,

Mike, people will make politics out of anything. But the disaster itself is not a political event. It's a big black swath of poison killing everything in its wake.

You keep mentioning that BP has the expertise to deal with this, and I agree. But they don't have the physical resources required. It is absolutely necessary, no matter the political landscape or who might earn 'points,' for the government to become heavily involved in containment and cleanup.

You seem to be advocating that the president should watch this disaster unfold in order to preserve some kind of political advantage or protection. Guess what? Even if mobilizing nothing would magically protect him from political fallout, I'd still want him to mobilize everything. And so should you.

Unless you are actually arguing that there is simply no action to take?

--Anthony

"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner

"You can lose a quark you don't girth." -Dreamtrove's words to live by, translated by Ipad

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Wednesday, May 26, 2010 4:52 PM

You have to cap the well, and even then, all you can do for the plume is spray surfactants/biosurfactants and burn it/blow it up. Last I heard, the size of this thing was 2,500 square miles, and there's plumes under the surface because crude oil is a mixture and there are different density compounds, and diffusion and water currents don't make it clear cut.

Capping it even really is easier said than done, which as you can see, is why nothing they've tried has worked yet. We have multiple leaks, not just one, and we're talking significant discharge = pressure = force.

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Wednesday, May 26, 2010 5:11 PM

I said it another thread about this, and I'll say it again here.

Nuke it.

Also, regarding that other thread on this topic, if PhoenixRose had her facts right about the law passed by Congress after the Exxon spill twenty years ago, we should be pissed at them for disallowing Federal involvement in these kinds of corporate fuck-ups, instead of being pissed at the current administration for following that law.

Of course, I think a State of Emergency could be called, easily, so don't think I'm saying there's not plenty of blame to go around here.

Also, Russia isn't subject to the law against the U.S. government doing something about it, and Russia has offered up the idea to melt the entire mess with the miracle of nuclear fission. They should. It could not possibly cause more damage than what is being caused.

This isn't a tanker, people, this is a fucking WELL. This won't STOP until it's plugged up. The fastest way to plug it is to melt it. Nuke the bastard.

And stop making it political. All of you. This hurts everything and everyone, so stop trying to spin it on the 'opposition.' Seriously. In the face of this, we should be past that kind of bickering bullshit.

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Wednesday, May 26, 2010 5:18 PM

Nuke it... *thoughtful*

We have lots of radioactive hydrogen in the oceans from the other ocean nukes (really. We actually use it to determine the "age" of the water, at least in the sense of how long it's been away from the surface, and it's not natural, so we also know exactly when it was introduced).

You'd produce a lot of radioactive water and steam, so you'd still probably have fallout. Depending on the rads you're talking about, you might make the zone uninhabitable for millenium, rather than centuries.

...But, we may be beyond conventional solutions at this point, as well.

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Wednesday, May 26, 2010 5:27 PM

Radioactive hurricanes?

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Wednesday, May 26, 2010 5:29 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by AnthonyT:
Hello,

Mike, people will make politics out of anything. But the disaster itself is not a political event. It's a big black swath of poison killing everything in its wake.

You keep mentioning that BP has the expertise to deal with this, and I agree. But they don't have the physical resources required. It is absolutely necessary, no matter the political landscape or who might earn 'points,' for the government to become heavily involved in containment and cleanup.

You seem to be advocating that the president should watch this disaster unfold in order to preserve some kind of political advantage or protection. Guess what? Even if mobilizing nothing would magically protect him from political fallout, I'd still want him to mobilize everything. And so should you.

Unless you are actually arguing that there is simply no action to take?

I'm arguing that there may very well be no action that THE PRESIDENT can take. Or Congress. Or the military. What action can BP take? What about Halliburton? How about TransOcean? They were all intimately involved with building, outfitting, and running this rig, and Halliburton has a budget larger than many countries. Are you saying Dick Cheney doesn't have the resources on his speed dial?

I'm starting to think Obama's suggestion of checking our tire pressures was the genius thing to say, especially in light of the "Drill, Baby, Drill!" dumbfucks like Rappy and his crew. Bet they'd give a lot to not be drilling that 3% of oil right now, huh?

Ask BP what they need. What resources would help? Ask Halliburton. Tell Cheney it's his duty to his country to tell Halliburton to get off their asses and help. Where is he in all this? Doesn't he still get a paycheck from them, and from the federal government?

Mike

"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence [sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero, Real World Event Discussions

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Wednesday, May 26, 2010 5:32 PM

Why does anyone have any notion that nuking a hole in the ocean floor would plug said hole? Last images I saw of Bikini Atoll before and after seemed to show a much larger hole after the nuke shot. And I'm not crazy about the idea of using the one thing on Earth we know is absolutely deadlier and more dangerous than an oil spill to stop an oil spill. Seems rather like treating a case of dandruff by decapitation. Even if it stops the dandruff, it kills the patient.

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Wednesday, May 26, 2010 5:40 PM

Freedom is Important because People are Important

Hello,

If I thought a tactical nuke would seal the hole, I'd be advocating it. Get this- all the radioactive naughtiness of a kiloton nuclear warhead is actually BETTER for the environment than a month-long oil spill.

But I haven't heard anything credible that suggests a nuke would get the job done.

--Anthony

"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner

"You can lose a quark you don't girth." -Dreamtrove's words to live by, translated by Ipad

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Wednesday, May 26, 2010 5:46 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by AnthonyT:
Hello,

If I thought a tactical nuke would seal the hole, I'd be advocating it. Get this- all the radioactive naughtiness of a kiloton nuclear warhead is actually BETTER for the environment than a month-long oil spill.

But I haven't heard anything credible that suggests a nuke would get the job done.

Exactly. There's as much chance that a nuke would create a BIGGER geyser of oil as there is that it would seal the hole.

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Wednesday, May 26, 2010 5:52 PM

The discussion was that of a low-yield nuclear device. Not a gigantic explosion to blow a hole in the earth, but a device that could melt the metal and slag, cauterizing the wound, so to speak. People who are way smarter and well-versed than me have discussed how and why it would work.

Quote:
Originally posted by Bytemite:
you might make the zone uninhabitable for millenium, rather than centuries.

I will just point out that, while the ecosystem of Prince William Sound is still devastated beyond sight of recovery to this day, there is plenty of thriving population and wildlife in Nagasaki.

And yes, there have been a lot of nuclear devices set off in the ocean as tests. This would not be anywhere close to the most powerful nuke detonated down there. I think the postulation that it would cause less damage than the oil continuing to gush is a sound one. And a low-yield explosion melting the metal and slag around the area would likely be a far more efficient plug than a ball of mud.

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Wednesday, May 26, 2010 5:58 PM

By the way, anyone old enough to remember IXTOC 1?

That was in 1979, in the Gulf of Mexico. An oil rig built by SNG exploded, burned, and sank after a blowout preventer failed. The wellhead gushed oil into the Gulf for TEN MONTHS, totalling more than 140 million gallons. It still stands as the largest accidental oil spill in history, and the second-largest oil spill of any kind, behind Saddam's pumping of more than 300 million gallons of oil into the Persian Gulf.

By the way, that company that built the rig, SNG? They changed their name after that. They call themselves TransOcean now. We were assured that what happened there could never happen again, because failsafe measures were put into place.

"Those who don't learn from history are doomed to endlessly repeat it," is the phrase I believe you're looking for. That, or "Oh, good grief."

Mike

"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence [sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero, Real World Event Discussions

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Wednesday, May 26, 2010 5:58 PM

Freedom is Important because People are Important

"The discussion was that of a low-yield nuclear device."

Hello,

Yes, I expect it would be a very small kiloton range device, if any device at all. But nobody has come forward saying, "We're 90% sure this'll get the job done." And no one has said, "We're 90% sure this won't make the problem worse."

Because the worst case scenario would be blowing up a nuke and not improving the situation.

So, when the experts say it's definitely the way to go, I'll be the first one saying 'full speed ahead.' Until then, it's just an idea that hasn't been properly weighed and measured.

--Anthony

"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner

"You can lose a quark you don't girth." -Dreamtrove's words to live by, translated by Ipad

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Wednesday, May 26, 2010 6:10 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by AnthonyT:
it's just an idea that hasn't been properly weighed and measured.

http://www.oil-price.net/en/articles/use-nukes-to-contain-the-oil-spil
l.php

"Soviet Russia had used controlled nuclear explosions to contain oil spills, on at least five different occasions."

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Wednesday, May 26, 2010 6:13 PM

Freedom is Important because People are Important

Hello,

I was not aware that it was a proven method.

If they can't stop the spill with their top kill, and a tac nuke could get the job done, I hope they use one.

--Anthony

"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner

"You can lose a quark you don't girth." -Dreamtrove's words to live by, translated by Ipad

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Wednesday, May 26, 2010 6:17 PM

Freedom is Important because People are Important

Hello,

I just noticed this:

"The science is to drill a hole near the leak, set off the explosion and then seal off the leak-used in the soviet for an oil spill in the desert. If it is rocky surface the explosion would shift the rock which then squeezes the funnel of the well. The first underground nuclear explosion was done in Urt-Bulak in 1966 to control burning gas wells. The success ratio is quite high with only one of them failing to prevent a spill in Kharkov region in 1972."

So, the situation may not be the same. Apparently, it was used on dry land, not on an ocean bottom. The physics may not be identical.

--Anthony

"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner

"You can lose a quark you don't girth." -Dreamtrove's words to live by, translated by Ipad

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Wednesday, May 26, 2010 6:17 PM

Quote:
I will just point out that, while the ecosystem of Prince William Sound is still devastated beyond sight of recovery to this day, there is plenty of thriving population and wildlife in Nagasaki.

Several square miles around Chernobyl and down-winders might take issue with that.

Eh, it really depends on how readily the radioactive stuff diffuses. I'm not dead set against it, but it's worth it to troubleshoot the potential problems.

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Wednesday, May 26, 2010 7:06 PM

"Controlled nuclear explosions". That sounds about as legitimate as "military intelligence", and just about as likely.

How does one "control" a nuclear explosion. Once you trigger it, it's pretty much going to do what it does. It's not like you can build a big box to contain it.

And Soviet Russia tended to go for really drastical overkill solutions, and damn the consequences. After all, it wasn't like you could sue the government. In Soviet Russia, government sues YOU! And radiation and pollution were never high on the Soviets' list of things to worry about. Remember, Soviet Russia also issued orders to execute any civilians trying to flee Stalingrad during the siege. And they also had a commander who actually went down the lines of his own retreating soldiers, counting them off, and shooting every tenth one in the face, until his pistol ran out of ammunition, literally decimating his own troops (that is the definition of the word - taking one of every ten), just to keep the other nine in line, and to show them how merciless he would be with any perceived cowards.

So I'm not positive I'm ready to listen to the Russians, especially when they're trying to convince us to nuke ourselves. Sorry, but I'm a skeptic. It's difficult for me to believe that nuclear explosions are ever the best option.

Mike

"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence [sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero, Real World Event Discussions

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Wednesday, May 26, 2010 7:17 PM

You raise some good points, but I still think that a nuclear explosion would be a better option than more millions of gallons of oil swamping the Gulf. If certain assessments are correct and it would quickly and effectively plug the leak, of course.

The best option would be this never happening in the first place. But I do own a car and enjoy the benefits of electricity. I shoulder as much blame for that as anyone else in an oil-hungry world.

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Wednesday, May 26, 2010 7:31 PM

Freedom is Important because People are Important

Hello,

I'm willing to bet that if you pulled up to the gas station and the sign read, "Unleaded - Price: $1 Trillion dollars in ecological impact and 22 Extinct species."

Then you'd have gone a different route.

We all expect our industries to operate safely.

--Anthony

"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner

"You can lose a quark you don't girth." -Dreamtrove's words to live by, translated by Ipad

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Wednesday, May 26, 2010 8:01 PM

RAHLMACLAREN

"Damn yokels, can't even tell a transport ship ain't got no guns on it." - Jayne Cobb

By the windy, earthy, watery, and fiery Celtic Gods, who the fuck brought up nukes!!!

It's bad enough that the fish and birds are going to have tar all over them and die, do they have glow in the dark too?

We're never going to cure cancer if we (the people of the Earth) keep setting off nukes every ten years.

Bloody humans.

--------------------------------------------------
Find here the Serenity you seek. -Tara Maclay

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Wednesday, May 26, 2010 8:18 PM

Russia brought them up first, I heard about the idea on Bill Maher, I brought it up here.
If such a technique made the soon-to-be nonexistent Gulf life glow in the dark, I would personally apologize to you and your Celtic gods.

And on a totally random tangent, there's as much or more evidence that sugar and insulin feed cancer than that nuclear reactions feed cancer.
ex. http://www.jci.org/articles/view/114868
Want a cure? We could stop pumping high fructose gunk into everything. If radiation is a deadly factor, we should also cut back on microwaves and medical diagnostics that make use of it; those things give the average person far more exposure to radiation than offshore nuclear tests.

Quote:
Originally posted by AnthonyT:
Unleaded - Price: $1 Trillion dollars in ecological impact and 22 Extinct species.

That... made me cry a little bit.

Yes, I would have gone a very different route, I think.

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Wednesday, May 26, 2010 11:49 PM

America loves a winner!

Mike,

This non-response is 100 % fully and wholly Obama's fault.

For all the crap Bush took over Katrina, Obama deserves 10,000,000 x's the grief. Because this disaster, though not his doing, proved he lacks the leadership, vision and caring to do what is required.

Even James Carville agrees.

Suck that, for all eternity.

( Pretty soon, the entire planet will suffer from Obama derangement syndrome. And for damn good reason )

Bones: "Don't 'rawr' her!"
Booth: "What? she'rawred' me first."

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Thursday, May 27, 2010 1:44 AM