It's worse than we know by AURaptor

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)

Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:
I have to credit CNN.

Their coverage is so wall to wall on this, I've had to turn it off.

Too damn depressing to see everyone ( BP, Gov't ) point fingers, make promises and literally N O T H I N G is being done. The marshes, the wetlands in LA are dying. No boats out there for weeks on end, nothing being done, they won't allow LA to at least TRY to save her shoreline.....

Except that you're lying. It's not hyperbole, it's not exaggeration - you're outright L Y I N G. You claim that "NOTHING" is being done, which is pure partisan bullshit, and you know it. Over 125 ships that have been working on cleanup and containment have just been ordered to RETURN TO SHORE because crews are becoming sick. There are toxins in the air that are affecting cleanup workers on the scene. But how on Earth could more than 125 ships have even been out there doing anything if NOTHING were being done? How is that possible?

Because you're lying, as usual. That's how.

Bobby Jindal is asking for MORE skimmers, and MORE booms, and MORE help. Not *SOME* of those things, but MORE of those things. That means they've already been sent SOME of them, so clearly more than NOTHING is being done.

You can argue that there should be a bigger response, a better response, a faster response, a more massive response. That's a discussion we can have. But no, you argue that there has been no response whatsoever, that the federal government has done absolutely NOTHING. That's your word, not mine.

And you're lying.

Mike

"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence [sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero, Real World Event Discussions

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Thursday, May 27, 2010 2:33 AM

Freedom is Important because People are Important

"Should he go there with a pail, shovel, and a spray bottle of Fantastik?"

Hello,

Thousands of them. It *is* a cheap political ploy, but there *should* be armies of people on the ground cleaning what can be cleaned, saving the animals that can be saved, putting up barriers that can be erected, etc.

The affected areas should be experiencing an invasion of assistance.

I hope he dispatches that aid presently.

--Anthony

"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner

"You can lose a quark you don't girth." -Dreamtrove's words to live by, translated by Ipad

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Thursday, May 27, 2010 2:33 AM

Quote:
The double boon is that later, when the tally-man comes to reckon the bill, no one will be able to say that BP doesn't owe.

C'mon, Anthony - you know better than that. Rappy will lead the chant that BP shouldn't have to pay when the bill comes due, while at the same time decrying the government spending he's so earnestly demanding now. He's completely versed in talking out both sides of his mouth at the same time.

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Thursday, May 27, 2010 2:35 AM

Freedom is Important because People are Important

"You can argue that there should be a bigger response, a better response, a faster response, a more massive response. That's a discussion we can have."

Hello,

That's it, exactly. And Mr. Raptor and his political brethren aren't looking for a discussion. They are making noise.

But that's fine. Canary in the mine shaft, only louder. It gets people moving and shaking.

--Anthony

"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner

"You can lose a quark you don't girth." -Dreamtrove's words to live by, translated by Ipad

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Thursday, May 27, 2010 2:37 AM

Freedom is Important because People are Important

Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko:
Quote:
The double boon is that later, when the tally-man comes to reckon the bill, no one will be able to say that BP doesn't owe.

C'mon, Anthony - you know better than that. Rappy will lead the chant that BP shouldn't have to pay when the bill comes due, while at the same time decrying the government spending he's so earnestly demanding now. He's completely versed in talking out both sides of his mouth at the same time.

Hello,

Well, I guess he *can* say it. But no one will care.

Right now, he's saying something people will care about. Later on, his current words will make sure no one cares if he tries to downplay BP's liability.

--Anthony

"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner

"You can lose a quark you don't girth." -Dreamtrove's words to live by, translated by Ipad

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Thursday, May 27, 2010 2:40 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by AnthonyT:
"Should he go there with a pail, shovel, and a spray bottle of Fantastik?"

Hello,

Thousands of them. It *is* a cheap political ploy, but there *should* be armies of people on the ground cleaning what can be cleaned, saving the animals that can be saved, putting up barriers that can be erected, etc.

The affected areas should be experiencing an invasion of assistance.

I hope he dispatches that aid presently.

So rather than stay in the War Room, as it were, lining up such aid, putting in calls to anyone in the world with an ounce of expertise, you'd rather the President just stand on the shore pulling cheap political moves? Do you think that would be any kind of solution, or are you just looking for some emotional salve to put your mind at ease?

Frankly, I'd rather have my President overseeing a massive response than running out there to try to respond by himself, and getting in the way of people who are trying to get the work done. One of the things that bugged me the most about Bush and Katrina was when he finally DID show up down there, and basically shut down an airport and grounded several rescue helicopters for some photo ops, in the quest for good press.

Mike

"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence [sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero, Real World Event Discussions

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Thursday, May 27, 2010 2:43 AM

Freedom is Important because People are Important

" I don't think they taught a course in exploded oil well-capping at Harvard"

Hello,

I wanted to speak on this as well. There are two problems happening right now. The leak is one problem. The oil is the other.

The Feds do have massive numbers of personnel trained to contain and clean up toxic chemicals. This oil is just a chemical weapon, and every chemical weapon expert in the arsenal who can be spared should be setting up a tent in Louisiana and other affected territories. And it can all go on the news so that the Pres can score his own points in the dirty game of politics: Sprawling tent cities of Federal employees in Hazmat suits, Johnnies on the spot.

--Anthony

"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner

"You can lose a quark you don't girth." -Dreamtrove's words to live by, translated by Ipad

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Thursday, May 27, 2010 2:45 AM

Freedom is Important because People are Important

"So rather than stay in the War Room, as it were, lining up such aid, putting in calls to anyone in the world with an ounce of expertise, you'd rather the President just stand on the shore pulling cheap political moves? Do you think that would be any kind of solution, or are you just looking for some emotional salve to put your mind at ease?

Frankly, I'd rather have my President overseeing a massive response than running out there to try to respond by himself, and getting in the way of people who are trying to get the work done. One of the things that bugged me the most about Bush and Katrina was when he finally DID show up down there, and basically shut down an airport and grounded several rescue helicopters for some photo ops, in the quest for good press. "

Hello,

No, Mike. I don't care if he ever steps foot down there personally. I think the full weight of his authority and power should be descending on the place. His presence, but by proxy.

And that proxy would come in the form of thousands upon thousands of people doing what can be done to contain and clean this disaster's effects on the ground.

--Anthony

"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner

"You can lose a quark you don't girth." -Dreamtrove's words to live by, translated by Ipad

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Thursday, May 27, 2010 2:50 AM

JONGSSTRAW

Quote:
"Should he go there with a pail, shovel, and a spray bottle of Fantastik?"

Hello,

Thousands of them... but there *should* be armies of people on the ground cleaning what can be cleaned, saving the animals that can be saved, putting up barriers that can be erected, etc.

The affected areas should be experiencing an invasion of assistance.

I hope he dispatches that aid presently.

You can't even begin large-scale clean-up operations until the leak is stopped....otherwise any efforts now will just be wastes of time and resources that will be needed later on. That's where Obama has a chance to shine....in the clean-up phase. He's pretty much helpless now, at the mercy of the oil industry "experts".

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Thursday, May 27, 2010 2:57 AM

Freedom is Important because People are Important

"You can't even begin large-scale clean-up operations until the leak is stopped....otherwise any efforts now will just be wastes of time and resources that will be needed later on. That's where Obama has a chance ti shine....in the clean-up phase. He's pretty much helpless now, at the mercy of the oil industry "experts">"

Hello,

I contest that nothing can presently be done. An ounce of crude collected is one ounce less in the total sum of all crude that will ever be deposited on site. There is a finite amount of oil that will be spilled on our shores. We don't know what that finite amount will be, but starting to collect it as soon as possible just means getting a jump start on the final sum. Whether that final sum ends up being one million or one billion or one trillion barrels of oil, each scoop of the stuff removed is one less scoop to be removed.

There's also a need for animal rescue and the erection of physical barriers to limit contamination.

Even if I was to believe that somehow no one can start cleaning right away (even though I see no reason why not) I'd still want to see massive teams assembled on site and ready to engage as soon as the go-order is given. A military-scale deployment to counter our largest chemical weapons attack ever. A chemical weapons attack launched by the gross negligence of an oil company.

--Anthony

"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner

"You can lose a quark you don't girth." -Dreamtrove's words to live by, translated by Ipad

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Thursday, May 27, 2010 3:15 AM

JONGSSTRAW

Quote:
Originally posted by AnthonyT:
"You can't even begin large-scale clean-up operations until the leak is stopped....otherwise any efforts now will just be wastes of time and resources that will be needed later on. That's where Obama has a chance ti shine....in the clean-up phase. He's pretty much helpless now, at the mercy of the oil industry "experts">"

Hello,

I contest that nothing can presently be done. An ounce of crude collected is one ounce less in the total sum of all crude that will ever be deposited on site. There is a finite amount of oil that will be spilled on our shores. We don't know what that finite amount will be, but starting to collect it as soon as possible just means getting a jump start on the final sum. Whether that final sum ends up being one million or one billion or one trillion barrels of oil, each scoop of the stuff removed is one less scoop to be removed.

There's also a need for animal rescue and the erection of physical barriers to limit contamination.

Even if I was to believe that somehow no one can start cleaning right away (even though I see no reason why not) I'd still want to see massive teams assembled on site and ready to engage as soon as the go-order is given. A military-scale deployment to counter our largest chemical weapons attack ever. A chemical weapons attack launched by the gross negligence of an oil company.

--Anthony

When it's snowing, you wait until the snow stops before your start shoveling your way out to the driveway. Same thing here. You don't want to spend money and resources now on cleaning some marsh land, then have to do it again, and again; the same areas cleaned multiple times. That doesn't make a lot of sense to me. These "top-water" skimmers and boons are not going to have a significant effect on the overall largess of this disaster. The oil is thick and deep, and has already shown that it will simply go around and beneath the containment apparatus.

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Thursday, May 27, 2010 3:40 AM

Anthony, I think you're falling into Rappy's trap, and assuming that because you don't see it on TV, it's not happening.

Are there ENOUGH people working cleanup in the salt marshes and swampland? Hardly. But as much as anything, I bet it's simply not having the needed equipment. Not "not having it on site or on hand" - I'm talking simply not having it, because not enough of these kinds of vehicles exist or are available.

This is swampland. You can't just drive out there and start cleaning up. In places, you have to hike, wade, take a shallow-draft boat, for MILES before you get where you're going. And in lots of these places, I bet the water's so shallow that bigger ships simply can't get close in to the shore and swamp at all.

So you'll have small boats with flat bottoms, propelled by poles and small motors (when they aren't getting tangled in swamp reeds), and you're using these tiny vessels and one or two people on them to try and clean up a spill larger than West Virginia. You can DO it, but you're not going to see quick results on TV. There are probably going to be new kinds of shallow-water boats outfitted and invented for just this disaster, but it's going to take time.

Mike

"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence [sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero, Real World Event Discussions

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Thursday, May 27, 2010 4:32 AM

Kwicko: Air toxins. That's the nasty thing that many people don't know about oil and hydrocarbon products. They are CRAZY volatile. They're classified as "Volatile Organic Carbons."

And stuff you find in crude oil, like benzene, toluene, napthalene, etc., those are seriously toxic.

I also clearly remember hearing that some kind of barriers were put up to try to protect the wildlife preserves, though it doesn't surprise me if they were ineffective. It's a catastrophic spill and it just gets everywhere. It's not easy to fight.

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Thursday, May 27, 2010 5:21 AM

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...

Coming in wayyy late, but I get the gist. First: Did I or did I not tell you? It was obvious to anyone who's experienced these things that this was going to kill the Coast, and much, much more.

I'll read all the posts and respond to some (my gawd, 68!), but the first things I want to say are:

--Quit blaming the government. A government is a huge, monstrous beast that moves slowly and is very cumbersome. And inept. And nobody ever imagined something like this.

--How about the fact that it is some people here's precious PRIVATE ENTERPRISE that caused this? I'm sure it's already gone around and around, but the simple fact is, BP put profits ahead of EVERYTHING...had many warning signs, chose to ignore them, finegaled their way into permits by lying, etc. So much for "self-policing" of big business.

--Obama has little or nothing to do with this. He has given all the commands he can to get things moving, what exactly do people want him to personally DO?? His hands are tied by how much he can interfere in private enterprise, remember? He can't just magically make BP do what's necessary, and he'd be blocked by the right wing from doing drastic things like taking over.

--What needs to be done is those tankers brought in which can skim the oil off the surface. From what I heard, they're sitting somewhere, full of oil, waiting for the price to go up to unload their cargo. Exactly what is Obama or the government supposed to do? Take them over forceably? Unless/until that happens, this thing is going to swing around Florida and go right up the East Coast. That's my prediction now...wait and see.

--There are already calls of bringing BP up on charges. Good. I hope they do.

--As for capping the well, I got as far as the post about the relief wells, and that's the only guaranteed thing to work: August. Check out the gusher in Australia...or there was another in the Gulf that took NINE MONTHS to cap. Get used to it.

--The Coast IS dead. I told you a couple of weeks ago it was. Check out Prince William Sound twenty years later, it's really easy to google. This will never be "fixed". Get used to it.

--Chris Matthews is NOT a die-hard Obama supporter, nor is CNN. Sure, they both lean that way, but Matthews takes Obama to task on a regular basis--he's a middle-of-the-roader. Because he's been ragging on the Republicans and Tea Party is because they have been behaving absurdly, they deserve ragging on, that's why it's seemed like he's an Obama supporter. Don't be fooled into thinking CNN and MSNBC and so forth are as blindly partisan as FauxNews. They're not.

Now perhaps you understand why this bleeding-heart liberal has been crying over this long before much of anyone else had any idea how bad it was going to be. I knew, and so did a few others here I'd bet. So now the rest of America is beginning to get an idea. Welcome to my world.

That's it for now. No doubt I've duplicated others. I'll read the rest of the thread now, I was just so struck by the "omigawd" of what I already knew was coming and the screams at Obama that I needed to say my piece.

"I'm just right. Kinda like the sun rising in the east and the world being round...its not a need its just the way it is." The Delusional "Hero", 3/1/10

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Thursday, May 27, 2010 5:29 AM

PIZMOBEACH

... fully loaded, safety off...

Quote:
Originally posted by AnthonyT:
... Mr. Raptor and his political brethren aren't looking for a discussion. They are making noise.

But that's fine. Canary in the mine shaft, only louder. It gets people moving and shaking.

Now you know what AZ is doing - you make noise, you push boundaries, you do something controversial, you do whatever it takes to be heard amongst all the other noise. Politics as usual.

Fwiw, just got this:

'Top Kill' Effort Seems to Be Working, U.S. Says Cautiously

The latest effort to plug a gushing underwater oil well in
the Gulf of Mexico appeared to be working, officials and
engineers said on Thursday morning, though definitive word on
its success was still hours away.

At the same time, government experts said that the flow of
oil from the well, which has been gushing since an explosion
and fire wrecked a drilling rig in late April, was several
times worse than the preliminary estimate by BP, the oil
company responsible for the rig and the well.

And The Associated Press reported on Thursday that the head
of the agency responsible for regulating offshore oil
drilling had been dismissed.

Read More:
http://www.nytimes.com

Scifi movie music + Firefly dialogue clips, 24 hours a day - http://www.scifiradio.com

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Thursday, May 27, 2010 5:31 AM

KANEMAN

Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:

It's not so much anti-Obama, but anti Federal Gov't. It's inept beyond comprehension.

There are literally no haz-mat boats, workers, ANYTHING going on in the wetlands.

Where there should be boaters, fisherman and birds, there is nothing.

Nothing but dead grass and oil soaked wetlands.
It's quiet. Still. Dead.

And it's only going to get worse.

A lot worse.

Bones: "Don't 'rawr' her!"
Booth: "What? she'rawred' me first."

The best part are the federal bureaucracy and regulations that prevent LA from building a fucking barrier island to protect its shores....You are correct this is not anti-Obama. This is big government's red tape that is slowing down what needs to be done.

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Thursday, May 27, 2010 6:00 AM

Freedom is Important because People are Important

Quote:
Originally posted by kaneman:
Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:

The best part are the federal bureaucracy and regulations that prevent LA from building a fucking barrier island to protect its shores....You are correct this is not anti-Obama. This is big government's red tape that is slowing down what needs to be done.

Hello,

I sincerely hope all that big government red tape can be removed from Louisiana and used instead to tie up BP in a pretty red bow as a gift to all the people of the coast.

--Anthony

"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner

"You can lose a quark you don't girth." -Dreamtrove's words to live by, translated by Ipad

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Thursday, May 27, 2010 6:27 AM

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...

Okay, I'm caught up:

Yes, the wetlands are essentially dead. Now that it’s hit the them and marshes, those are dead forever. I posted the details of why, but I assume few if any cared to read it. The ecosystem of the wetlands is delicate and involves many, many creatures, including man.

I’d like to know specifically what those bitching about Obama and the government would like them to DO. Specifically. These guys know the truth:

Quote:
Interior Secretary Ken Salazar's public threat to BP (BP) on Sunday that the federal government might take over the cleanup of the Deepwater Horizon oil spill made headlines around the world. Too bad it's not a realistic scenario.

The federal government lacks the expertise and the technology to manage the cleanup effort, according to environmental groups. Like it or not, the government can't contain the worst environmental disaster in U.S. history without BP, a fact that Salazar no doubt knew when he said, "If we find that they're not doing what they're supposed to be doing, we'll push them out of the way appropriately."

Salazar is certainly not alone in his frustration at the slow pace of the cleanup and containment of the spill that followed the April 20 explosion on the Gulf of Mexico drilling platform, which killed 11 workers and threatens to decimate the economies of the Gulf States. But the former senator runs the risk of angering residents of the affected areas by making promises that he can't keep. Even environmental groups that have been critical of BP don't advocate the federal government's takeover of the cleanup effort.

See full article from DailyFinance: http://srph.it/c423HQ

Essentially: Byte is right, 100%

Anthony’s also right; as citizens, it’s our responsibility to help, too. If the American people were mobilized, a lot could be accomplished. You know now why it drives me MAD that I can’t get down there to help. Anyone who can should do so...if I had the money I’d be there in an instant. Anyone who wants to do something besides bitching and moaning and blaming Obama and the government: http://www.gulfoilspilljobs.com/ Make some money even, and there’s no waivers to sign.

Crappy wouldn’t be “sucking Bush’s dick” if this happened; whatever he is, even Crappy would be pissed about this, once he understood the facts of what’s happening/will happen. I give him that much credit. At the same time, Crappy, why should we watch as you push us to do? Most of us already KNOW everything there is to know about it, and get our information minute by minute, if we care to. There’s been a lot of good coverage on it all along, just many aren’t paying attention or, in my case, can only take it in bits and pieces because we already KNOW. And tho’ you say it’s about the government, not Obama, it’s obvious every time you come in that for you it IS about Obama. How about looking at how regulations were changed while Dumbya was in office, about how the mentality of the entire government became lax with regard to the oil industry, about how we’re STILL SUBSIDIZING that industry? You can blame Obama for not cleaning up a mess CREATED by the Bush administration all you want, but it’s not hindsight and it’s not absolving Obama of blame: IT IS FACT that all this came about largely because of Dumbya’s and Cheney’s ties to Big Oil and everything they did and the mentality within government they created. Obama can only deal with the aftermath.

I never said fur was the best way to clean up ANYTHING, idiot...that snark was stupid. I responded to a post put up here that donating clean hair/fur is a way to help, which I’d already heard about from one of the husky kennels I know locally. Why in hell wouldn’t we do anything, however small, to help, you asshole?

"I'm just right. Kinda like the sun rising in the east and the world being round...its not a need its just the way it is." The Delusional "Hero", 3/1/10

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Thursday, May 27, 2010 6:27 AM

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...

I know the righties don’t like Dumbya blamed in hindsight, but tough shit. His and his administration’s (and Cheney’s, don’t forget!) coddling of the oil industry is the original cause of all this. The MMS became what it was because of the prevailing mentality, everyone on the environmental front KNEW this, knew regulations were being lifted, if not eliminated, and that little or no oversight of the oil industry was taking place. We screamed...but nobody listened. So now they can blame Obama. But the pure and simple fact is that BP was allowed to behave the way they did because Dumbya and his cronies not only let them, but ENCOURAGED THEM. Obama can’t fix everything they set up...and the disaster that was the MMS, by the way, was known about some time ago. The report on their parties and drugs came out a couple of years ago...BEFORE Obama.

Mike’s estimation of the situation is bang on. It all boils down to what he wrote, if you’re looking for someone to take responsibility and “fix” this magically. Things aren’t that black and white:

Anthony: what Mike said isn’t “righteous”, it’s reality. The government hasn’t the expertise, and any efforts to force much of anything will be stymied. This will get worse. Nothing can stop it; the oil is out there now, it’ll keep going where it goes. In the Gulf Stream now, as I said, Florida and the East Coast are next. You suggestion about the government mobilizing left out one big thing: The Republicans will fight it all the way. Remember, there are those who have said publicly that this disaster only shows we need to drill MORE, to make up for the lost oil. They will fight tooth and nail any attempt by the government to “take over”—which again I say, would do no good. But I make another prediction here; any effort by the Obama adminstration to do the things you suggest will be stymied left and right by the Republicans.

Yes, Mike:

Quote:
So while nobody seems to have any solid PLAN, or any concrete idea of WHAT to do, they're still going to go on screaming that Obama should DO SOMETHING. In other words, they're mad at him for doing nothing when the situation clearly calls for panic.

That’s it. But I don’t think it’s just about being mad at him for “doing nothing”—they’re scared, and everyone needs someone to blame, it’s pretty common human nature. Given they hated him BEFORE only makes it easier.

Again Byte is right on. Capping it isn’t going to be easy, if it can be done at all. But I maintain, Byte, that if those tankers were brought in, they could at least deal with the surface oil, and could even make a profit from it. But that’s not being done; does Obama or the government have the power to force them to come? That’s my question; because they ARE the only viable solution to the surface oil. The rest, I don’t know how we deal with. The only thing I do know is that the dispersants currently being used are as toxic as the oil, and aren’t even proven to work. There are better ones, but BP doesn’t “have” them, so they won’t use them.

Cheney, Mike? Good laugh. He’ll keep as low a profile as humanly possible andhope everyone forgets his job before VP, then come out ages from now saying we need to drill MORE, that it can be made safe, etc., etc. Halliburton and TransOcean won’t lift a finger, they’ll just point to BP and keep their OWN low profile.

Nuking sounds stupid to me, for all the reasons given by Byte and Mike, and Anthony’s right, it wouldn’t work. The instinct of “Nuke it!” is one easily reached for, but it doesn’t solve anything. I’m with Rahlm.

Ah, I see Mike found the “spill” to which I was referring. IXTOC 1. There’s our scenario, and there’s what will probable happen this time. Bear in mind that from then until now, NOTHING was changed, in fact regulation got weaker and this became more and more inevitable. We don’t learn from the past, is our problem, and we don’t pay attention to what might be. I heard about it the same place as JS did, and I was as aghast and sick to discover the facts on it. Essentially: Oil companies have perfected the method of drilling deeper and deeper, while not bothering to learn how to FIX things that happen deeper and deeper, and NONE of our administrations have done anything about it.

JS is right, it’s the clean-up that will need the help. Tent cities of people aren’t viable, now or ever, and

Quote:
You can't even begin large-scale clean-up operations until the leak is stopped....otherwise any efforts now will just be wastes of time and resources that will be needed later on. That's where Obama has a chance to shine....in the clean-up phase. He's pretty much helpless now, at the mercy of the oil industry "experts".

is right on. Only you forgot “and the Republicans”. Obama can’t do much unless the MAJORITY of the legislature is behind him, and they’re not. They’ve got their own “political agenda”, much more important to them than an oil leak somewhere far away, and they’ll fight him tooth and nail when it comes to spending more money or utilizing more power, OR really coming down on BP or any other oil company. Obama’s not stupid, he knows that...and I happen to believe he’s doing everything he actually can. It’s easy to blame Obama; he’s the head of the country; how about not blaming but actually looking for ways to help? You wanna blame, put the blame where it belongs: Private enterprise, unrestricted and unregulated. Yes, the government in the form of the MMS is equally to blame, but that doesn’t help right now.

"I'm just right. Kinda like the sun rising in the east and the world being round...its not a need its just the way it is." The Delusional "Hero", 3/1/10

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Thursday, May 27, 2010 6:33 AM

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...

JS, Mike, forget the wetlands, as I said. The facts and figures are there for you to read, if you want to, but the impetus should be put elsewhere. Write the wetlands off, nothing can be done to save them now.

Contesting that nothing can be done right now is disingenuous. Things ARE being done now, many, many things, and will continue to be. But “massive”, I say again, requires the consent of the legislature—get THEM to give him what he needs and have the power he needs, if you can, and you can’t. Animal rescue IS being done, beach cleanup is being done, by humans like ourselves, and the government IS doing many things, they just can’t mobilize fast enough or get the resources down there fast enough, and those doing the animal rescue in particular know what they’re doing—trust me, a lot of untrained people in THAT respect would do more harm than good. Same with beach cleanup—you have to be trained, and I have no doubt MANY are being trained at this very minute, to get as many out there as possible as soon as possible. Scientists have no more answers than anyone else, and simplistically saying “it’s just a chemical” is absurd.

Anthony,

Quote:
there *should* be armies of people on the ground cleaning what can be cleaned, saving the animals that can be saved, putting up barriers that can be erected, etc.

The affected areas should be experiencing an invasion of assistance.

Where exactly do you look for that army? With half the country hollering about border security, two wars, etc., where will this army come from? In a fantasy world, other Americans, but they’re not dropping their daily lives to run to help...are you? Do you expect them to do more than you’re willing to do?

Until I hear someone here actually willing to GO THERE and help, this is all bullshit debate, partisanship, guesswork, and finger pointing. if we love our Coasts, WE should be there helping, not bitching that the government isn’t doing enough, not pressuring the government to do things THEY WOULD NOT BE ALLOWED TO DO by their counterparts in the legislature, even if there were something they COULD do to have a real impact. The people THERE working are those people like to call the “tree huggers”. They’re there in quantity, doing what they can, and we screamed long and loud for ages before this happened that it could happen. Nobody was listening; we were dismissed as doom-sayers. WE were the “canary in the mineshaft”, but when the canary dies and nobody notices, what good does it do?

This is an interesting discussion, but it's just a lot of finger pointing, frustrated wishing for a solution (nuke it? You gotta be kidding!) and bickering. Anyone really want to do something? There are many ways--contributions if nothing else to the environmental groups that are down there right now, wallowing in oil, trying the help.

Anyone want to send me a plane ticket? I'd be there in an instant. Jim just went through surgery to repair a torn tendon, so I've been helping him 'cuz he's pretty helpless. But Choey would happily take care of him AND my animals if I wanted to go. And I do, gawd I do...I've been through tiny experiences of this, and they're horrific enough. I cannot conceive of what's happening down there.

Otherwise, this is just complaining and wishing and partisan blaming of Obama for something too huge for the government to deal with as quickly and efficiently as people demand.

Then put pressure to STOP deep-water drilling, if nothing else; to put a viable agency in charge and kill MMS (which Obama is already doing); contribute to those doing the actual work; and you "libertarians" (I use the word in quotes because real libertarians don't count), get your heads out of your asses--private enterprise CANNOT be trusted to do what's right, we DO need government to protect us, if we work to make it better it will.

Finally: It's not worse than "we" know...it's worse than SOME of us knew or anticipated, but had their eyes too firmly closed and their imaginations too limited to realize. Stop blaming Obama, I understand the desire to blame someone, but put the blame where it belongs if you really must: BP, TransOcean, Halliburton, Dumbya and his administration caring more for profits than protecting our country.

"I'm just right. Kinda like the sun rising in the east and the world being round...its not a need its just the way it is." The Delusional "Hero", 3/1/10

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Thursday, May 27, 2010 7:10 AM

Freedom is Important because People are Important

"You suggestion about the government mobilizing left out one big thing: The Republicans will fight it all the way."

Hello,

Ask me if I care a fig about the rough fight with the Republicans. My television has been filled with a rough fight against the Republicans all year, but the admin believed the cause was worth fighting for.

It is right for most people to want something done about this, Niki. And no, most people who are gainfully employed can't afford to surrender their livelihoods to take a trip to the coast. If I could afford to be at the coast, I'd have been there already. In Florida, with my family, for purely selfish reasons. Long before any spill occurred.

But it is disingenuous to say, "No one has the expertise except BP" in one breath and then "why don't you get down there" in the next breath.

Clearly, much of the work to be done requires little or no expertise. I remember the Exxon cleanup. A bunch of people with rags cleaning rocks. Scooping mud. Washing birds with dish soap. I'm sure someone directing the efforts had expertise, but I'm equally sure hundreds of coast cleaners didn't graduate from Oil University.

I read the other day that 1200 troops were being moved to inspect the Mexican border. This, in response to Arizona's hot air. How many Federal employees can we spare for the Gulf's Black Sea?

Already employed, already available, some of them actually trained in hazardous materials procedures. And if the experts at BP need to direct a force of thousands of amateurs about the best ways to scoop up oil, that's fine, too.

It's not like scooping snow off your driveway, where the object is to make a path. Of course you don't want to shovel a path only to have the path obscured again. But when you are shoveling snow off your sidewalk, the object isn't to remove the largest quantity of snow possible. When you're scooping oil off the beach, that IS the object. To just remove oil for the sake of removing oil, because oil is toxic, and every ounce is an ounce closer to the finish, even if more oil is still streaming in.

Now, while I can't quit my job and jaunt off to Louisiana, I'm happy to chip in for those that don't live under my restrictions. I get paid on Friday. Drop me a line, Nicky, and I'll paypal you the first 5 percent of your fare. Twenty people do that, and you're on your way.

And if you still don't have enough by next payday, I'll chip in again. And I'll keep chipping in every payday. Because that is something I *can* do from here.

And I kind of like the idea of sending a Browncoat from our community to reach out to theirs, even in a small way.

--Anthony

"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner

"You can lose a quark you don't girth." -Dreamtrove's words to live by, translated by Ipad

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Thursday, May 27, 2010 7:33 AM

SHINYGOODGUY

Kwix, you make some very good points. But to me
this is the Exxon-Valdez disaster all over again.

Good point #1:
Government steps in, BP walks away, shrugs, says "We had it under control. We were just about to get it handled. They came in and took over, and screwed it up, and that's where it all went wrong." They'll say that in court, to try to weasel out of responsibility, to try to muddy the blame, pass it off as a chain-of-custody kind of issue, claiming that once the government took over, the government also took responsibility.

SGG: BP is dragging it's feet hoping for a miracle that will not cost them anything, which could conceivably run into the hundreds of billions.

Good point #2:
And all it takes is one judge to agree, and the government's on the hook for the whole shebang.

SGG: BP has deep pockets and will drag out the legal process for as long as it takes - (see #1). Exxon-Valdez case was dragged in the courts well into 2009 (with appeals) and the "accident" happened in 1989; 20 years. So expect BP to follow suit, maybe even use the defense used by Exxon lawyers.

Good point #3:
Add to that the fact that if Obama spends one thin dime of government money on this goddamned mess, he's going to have the Republicans up his ass about it, just the way they've been up his ass about every fucking dime he's spent up til now.

SGG: This may prove to backfire on the Republicans, if they so choose to vilify Obama, because IF the president decides to step in and save Americans (and that's a big IF) and the American shoreline; how would it look that the Republicans want to stop that from happening? It would be a political hot-potato that not even Sarah-baby would touch with McCain's wrinkled paw?

Good point #4:
As I said before, the free market dipshits wanted this. They've got their wish. They should say "Thank you, Mister President. We'll handle it from here." Instead they come whining like a bunch of pussies, begging - no, DEMANDING - that the government they hate so fucking much should now save their stupid asses. And, as always, they want US to pay for the privilege of bailing their stupid fucking corporate asses out. Fuck 'em. They wanted no part of our regulations and oversight. They did this to us. We did not do this to them.

SGG: Don't be surprised if you hear about secret meetings with Paulson, and the other Wall Street con artists, and BP officials learning about how to beg for government bailouts. I could see the infomercial now - Yes, you too could stand to make billions with our fool-proof plan: The Bleed Them Dry Method. Deregulation, it's all the rage.

Good point #5:
I say horseshit. Not until we get some things straight. We'll help, if you can convince BP to *ASK* for our help. In public, on TV, for all to see. We'll take over, but BP will sign paperwork indicating that they are absolved of no responsibility at all. And they'll proclaim so on TV, too. And they'll ask us, in public, to enact tougher regulations and oversight. And they'll make it abundantly clear to all that THEY are going to pay for every red cent of cleanup, for disaster relief, for damages, for making people's lives whole again, for lost wages and livelihood, and for whatever other incidental costs are incurred because of their fuck-up. And then, and ONLY then, will we put the full force and might of this nation to this task.

SGG: We should just take over the whole thing - hook, line and sinker - give them the finger and say "we'll take it from here" keep the well for ourselves until every last drop of oil is cleaned up and restitution is made. Wehn everything is put back to the way it was before the "accident" then maybe we'll consider giving it back. No courts. No politics. Just pure straight up cash, profits directly from the source.

BTW: Did I read somewhere that Haliburton has a hand in this? If so, that explains why Cheney has been so obviously quiet about this latest fiasco. All's quiet from the Sith Lord, Darth Yapper. Normally he would be all up in Obama's ass, harping on how the Dems are spending the hard earned taxpayers money (Funny how they forget the close to Trillion dollars spent on the Iraq War. Remember WMDs!)

Good Conclusion, Kwix!

And until such time as every single penny is paid, BP will be in receivership in this country. Their company will have liens placed against its assets here. If they don't like it, fuck 'em. Let THEM fix the fucking problem they caused.

SGG: But be assured that these lowlifes will fight tooth and nail in the courts to pay as little as possible to the country and it's hard working people. In my research about the Exxon fuck-up I read that they fought long and hard (20 years) using our legal system, with appeals and such, to reduce the punitive damages awarded to the good folk of Alaska at the time. Some $5 Billion was reduced to approximately $500 million. Expect more of the same from BP/Haliburton.

Kwicko: So while nobody seems to have any solid PLAN, or any concrete idea of WHAT to do, they're still going to go on screaming that Obama should DO SOMETHING.

SGG: So it's damn if he does (spending too much), and damn if he don't (do something BIG government, wait isn't this what McCain and Palin ran their campaign against. Weren't they against the Washington insiders and their loose pockets?)

Damn, how things have changed.

SGG

Tawabawho?

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Thursday, May 27, 2010 9:03 AM

Niki: Hmm, well. Dispersants aren't usually helpful, in fact a little research will show they tried dispersants with the Valdez spill and gave that up pretty quick.

Surfactants, especially bio-surfactants, on the other hand, are edible and non-toxic. Ever had Cool Whip? That's a food-grade surfactant. They work a little bit like dishsoap, allowing the polar water molecule to interact with the non-polar oil molecule, with the added bonus that surfactants can trick bacteria into eating the oil.

But good damn, that would be a LOT of surfactant, and you know what the toxicologists say. Anything is a poison if the dose is high enough.

Then there's fires and explosions, which can also be used to contain andburn off the oil. You get a little air pollution from that, but it's nothing compared to this water pollution. I'm not talking nukes hear, just regular fire and explosions.

Tankers would help as well.

But that's pretty much all the tech we have to deal with this. There's no quick fix, no engineering miracle. This is why it's better to not pollute in the first place.

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Thursday, May 27, 2010 9:08 AM

PIRATENEWS

John Lee, conspiracy therapist at Hollywood award-winner History Channel-mocked SNL-spoofed PirateNew.org wooHOO!!!!!!

British citizen Obama and British Petroleum refuse to stop leak using simple technology
www.theflucase.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=3569:g
ulf-oil-spill-could-have-been-sealed-in-8-hours-anytime

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Thursday, May 27, 2010 9:13 AM

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...

Okay, if we're gonna start changing titles, PN, I'll just change 'em too. Start your own thread, you slather us with them often enough.

Anthony, you're a doll. Thanx for the offer, but better, since I don't think enough people would come on board, put the 5% away this month. If enough people pony up the money, I'll go, but I doubt it--so anyone who wants to contribute, put the money aside; if there's not enough in a month or so for me to go, donate it to those who are THERE! I can give you all the links you want and you can choose the group you want to contribute to.

At the same time, I'd ADORE to be there to help (and believe me, there are browncoats there already!). My e-mail addy is Nikovich@pacbell.net...make a pledge and I'll keep track. I could probably add $100 of my own money by the first of next month, and all I'd need is a plane ticket. If it's anything like other spills have been, there are people to put you up and feed you.

I couldn't do any hard labor, between ankle and wrist, but I could clean birds or beaches, I'm trained in both. And I'd give my eyeteeth...

As for scrubbing rocks, dear gawd no! You seriously DO need training, and boots and gloves and stuff, just to clean beaches. It truly is toxic stuff, and probably if you walked out to an oil-covered beach to scrub, a dozen people would run up to stop you and tell you how dangerous it is!

As for detergent, you bet your bippy!! WE discovered Dawn at the same time others cleaning oil-soaked birds did back in the '70s I think, and it's been the standard ever since. Why do you think they put it on their bottles? Best stuff in the world to cut grease safely, and that's why I'll buy nothing else; to support them. It was a miracle worker when we discovered it, and as I said, has been the standard ever since. You don't need special chemicals to save birds and wildlife, all you need is Dawn. (Maybe I could get them to pay my way if I advertised for them!

)

"I'm just right. Kinda like the sun rising in the east and the world being round...its not a need its just the way it is." The Delusional "Hero", 3/1/10

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Thursday, May 27, 2010 9:13 AM

Interesting, PN.

I don't know much about well technology, my expertise is in the pollution clean up part.

Could be true. And if the oil spills has ulterior motives behind it...

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Thursday, May 27, 2010 9:23 AM

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...

Byte: I didn't know there was a difference between dispersants and "bio-surfactants", which I'd never heard of. I wish they WOULD, and I wonder why they're NOT?? THAT's a viable methodology, I should think!

"I'm just right. Kinda like the sun rising in the east and the world being round...its not a need its just the way it is." The Delusional "Hero", 3/1/10

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Thursday, May 27, 2010 9:44 AM

I'll get you some additional information on it. As for why they're not using it...

???

No idea. Maybe they are but the people who might report it don't have a clue what it is.

Hmm, dispersants are categorized as a type of surfactant on wikipedia. But we use surfactants and biosurfactants all the time in this business, I'm more familiar with the other kinds, less familiar with dispersants.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biosurfactant

Of course, this would only increase the rate of natural attenuation of the oil plume. So that's more of something you can do over the long term, or with parts of the plume you can't readily treat. But you get really good results for increasing the rate of decay. You can make a plume that's been going for 50 years non-detect on sampling in a couple years time with stuff like that.

Hmm, air sparging wouldn't work, you already have people getting respiratory problems breathing the crap... Trying to think of other tech.

Oxidizers, I've seen oxidizers used too. Zero-Valent Iron I've normally seen used for chlorinated solvents, but theoretically you can use them for hydrocarbons, and I've also heard of hydrogen peroxide, that can catalyze the breakdown of oil, and hydrogen peroxide decays down to oxygen and water, so it's not a contaminant in of itself if you use it all up.

Just don't spray anyone with it. ^_^'

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Thursday, May 27, 2010 9:56 AM

Quote:
As for scrubbing rocks, dear gawd no! You seriously DO need training, and boots and gloves and stuff, just to clean beaches. It truly is toxic stuff, and probably if you walked out to an oil-covered beach to scrub, a dozen people would run up to stop you and tell you how dangerous it is!

Yeah, and respiratory junk too. I know people who won't deal with crude oil or benzene unless they have Type A personal protective equipment, that's those hazmat suits with the SCBA.

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Thursday, May 27, 2010 10:02 AM

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...

On to respond to others things:

Anthony, it’s not about whether we care about a fight with the Repubs. The fight would be there, and I don’t think Obama could win, is what I was saying. The 1200 troops is a perfect example, McCain is screaming it should be 6000...how many do you think the Repubs would be wiling to send to the Gulf?

Quote:
But it is disingenuous to say, "No one has the expertise except BP" in one breath and then "why don't you get down there" in the next breath.

You misunderstood. I was referring to capping the well in the first part, cleanup in the second; they’re not in opposition to one another. HUMANS are needed for cleanup, scientists, experts and BP are the only ones who can cap it.

SGG: You’re right on the money. It’s the Exxon all over, times who knows how much. They are still litigating over that, by the way, it didn’t stop in 2009. And Prince William Sound, as I itemized in another thread, will never be the same. The fishermen moved or took up other occupations. Oil can still be found on beaches far from where it leaked. The ecosystem has changed...forever. The same will happen in the Gulf, and the Eastern Seaboard if it gets that far. You are probably right that BP is dragging its feet hoping America WILL take over, and that they’d litigate it forever.

I don’t believe, however, that it will backfire on the Repubs to fight Obama doing anything. They’ve done stuff like that many times and not paid for it. People have short memories, depending on how much of the country it affects. Do bear in mind there are still Repubs out there saying we need to drill MORE to make up for the lost money, and the move to raise the cap on damages is being fought because “mom and pop” oil companies would go bust...the arguments will be found to justify fighting, trust me.

Re: Government bailouts. They probably wouldn’t get them, given their profit ratio. We DO, however, still SUBSIDIZE the oil industry, remember! Taking over the well until restitution is made is a waste, in my opinion. Their profits are SO high from so many wells, they wouldn’t give a shit and would probably consider it the better alternative to being on the hook for damages.

Yes, Halliburton was the company working on the cementing which might have caused the initial problem. There were many others, and they had a lot of warning (multiple warnings!), but Halliburton has screwed up at other drilling platforms where what they did is being litigated as the cause for the “release” (I refuse to call it a “spill”, it’s a gusher if nothing else!). And of course that’s why Darth is keeping a low profile. In time he’ll come up with something to blame Obama about, but for now I think his connection to Halliburton and Big Oil may be a leeetle bit too close to the surface to want us reminded about him! Not that we haven’t been; the secret meeting he had with the oil companies while VP has been back in the news. It’ll fade.

Yup, damned if he does and damned if he doesn’t, you pegged it. Actually, he/they ARE doing something, it’s more like “damned if he doesn’t do MORE, damned if he spends money doing MORE, and damned if he doesn’t”.

"I'm just right. Kinda like the sun rising in the east and the world being round...its not a need its just the way it is." The Delusional "Hero", 3/1/10

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Thursday, May 27, 2010 10:07 AM

PIZMOBEACH

... fully loaded, safety off...

Quote:
Originally posted by Niki2:

Anthony, you're a doll. Thanx for the offer, but better, since I don't think enough people would come on board, put the 5% away this month. If enough people pony up the money, I'll go, but I doubt it--so anyone who wants to contribute, put the money aside; if there's not enough in a month or so for me to go, donate it to those who are THERE! I can give you all the links you want and you can choose the group you want to contribute to.

San Francisco, CA (SFO) to New Orleans, LA (MSY)
Lowest Economy/Coach Fares published for travel between May 2010 and September 2010
Any applicable discounts will be added after you choose your flights.

American is the cheapest at $258 - shockingly low imho.

I'd bet Anthony could bump up his contribution, maybe $50? You can put me down for the $58. That's 3 others at $50. You have to promise to take plenty of videos and put them on youtube though (so Wulf can see what activism is).

Scifi movie music + Firefly dialogue clips, 24 hours a day - http://www.scifiradio.com

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Thursday, May 27, 2010 10:11 AM

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...

Byte: I wish someone would shout about the things you're enumerating. Surely it could be looked into...

You're right about breathing and hazmat suits. We weren't allowed to clean the beaches where it was thick, only the trained guys in hazmat suits with breathing apparatus were. We were allowed to clean up AFTER them, get the residual stuff and work on beaches where it wasn't thick, but you need equipment and training to do the heavy cleanup.

I sure wish we could know whether anyone was pursuing the options you've suggested. Hell, if what you're describing is something like Dawn, betcha their makers would donate TONS of it--they'd get great press, better than they do now with how much of it is used in wildlife cleanup!

Trouble is "we" don't KNOW what all is being done. I wish we did--not the MSM, hell, they get most of what they report off the wire, and/or get it wrong. A perfect example is the CA-AZ pissing contest; it was a non-story, and the MSM dropped it as soon as it'd run it's course of "weirdness" and they realized nothing would happen. But they nonetheless picked it up nationally at first.

But some source we could trust, someone who was monitoring ALL the various methods being used/tried...I'd love to know, and I'd love to hear people like you chime in, people who KNOW something about the issue! If wishes were horses...

"There's no quick fix, no engineering miracle. This is why it's better to not pollute in the first place." Boy, you got that right...in spades. If only all of us "canaries in the mine" had been listened to...water under the bridge. Maybe we'll be listened to at least MORE now...? Hahahahaha.

At least I finally have something to thank our Govenator for, for the first time. He's working with Oregon and Washington on a PERMANENT moratorium on ANY drilling off our Coast. My heart goes out to those in the Gulf...

"I'm just right. Kinda like the sun rising in the east and the world being round...its not a need its just the way it is." The Delusional "Hero", 3/1/10

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Thursday, May 27, 2010 10:18 AM

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...

Oh, Pizmo, you're a doll too. What a dream it could be... And I had no idea it was that little! I still don't think it can happen, I don't think enough people here would/could chip in. But I'm not averse to keeping it going for a bit to find out.

That's $50 from Pizmo, a guaranteed $12.5 from Anthony. Let's see where it goes. I won't know until July 1 how much I could pitch in, maybe $50-75 probably, I'm pretty far behind. But I'd do it, fer shore. And I have no DOUBT it'll still be going on then!

As to video, I could take lots of pictures (time permitting), but all I have is a little Olympus point-and-shoot, which does take videos and I would, they just won't be terribly good. If it were made possible, I'd do anything anyone wanted, as long as I could spend most of my time working. Hey, I can dream!

And to hell with the WulfWind, he'd diss it or find some conspiracy or something to bitch about...it'd be for the rest of you, 'cuz you'd have made it possible!

"I'm just right. Kinda like the sun rising in the east and the world being round...its not a need its just the way it is." The Delusional "Hero", 3/1/10

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Thursday, May 27, 2010 12:57 PM

Quote:

Until I hear someone here actually willing to GO THERE and help, this is all bullshit debate, partisanship, guesswork, and finger pointing. if we love our Coasts, WE should be there helping, not bitching that the government isn’t doing enough, not pressuring the government to do things THEY WOULD NOT BE ALLOWED TO DO by their counterparts in the legislature, even if there were something they COULD do to have a real impact. The people THERE working are those people like to call the “tree huggers”. They’re there in quantity, doing what they can, and we screamed long and loud for ages before this happened that it could happen. Nobody was listening; we were dismissed as doom-sayers. WE were the “canary in the mineshaft”, but when the canary dies and nobody notices, what good does it do?

And don't forget, Niki, that Wulfie has been kind enough to offer to round up all those "tree huggers" and wipe them out, thinking he'd be doing the world some great favor by doing so.

Mike

"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence [sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero, Real World Event Discussions

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Thursday, May 27, 2010 1:05 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by AnthonyT:
"You suggestion about the government mobilizing left out one big thing: The Republicans will fight it all the way."

Hello,

Ask me if I care a fig about the rough fight with the Republicans. My television has been filled with a rough fight against the Republicans all year, but the admin believed the cause was worth fighting for.

It is right for most people to want something done about this, Niki. And no, most people who are gainfully employed can't afford to surrender their livelihoods to take a trip to the coast. If I could afford to be at the coast, I'd have been there already. In Florida, with my family, for purely selfish reasons. Long before any spill occurred.

But it is disingenuous to say, "No one has the expertise except BP" in one breath and then "why don't you get down there" in the next breath.

Clearly, much of the work to be done requires little or no expertise. I remember the Exxon cleanup. A bunch of people with rags cleaning rocks. Scooping mud. Washing birds with dish soap. I'm sure someone directing the efforts had expertise, but I'm equally sure hundreds of coast cleaners didn't graduate from Oil University.

And how many of them got sick? And how many of them died from their illnesses, while Exxon fought in court to keep from paying any of the costs of that disaster? No offense, Anthony, but if you're asking me to volunteer to wade into toxic waste with no protection and no training, I'm afraid I'm going to have to ask you to volunteer to pay my medical bills for the rest of my life. Deal?

Quote:

I read the other day that 1200 troops were being moved to inspect the Mexican border. This, in response to Arizona's hot air. How many Federal employees can we spare for the Gulf's Black Sea?

1200 fewer, now that they've been deployed to Arizona.

Quote:
Already employed, already available, some of them actually trained in hazardous materials procedures. And if the experts at BP need to direct a force of thousands of amateurs about the best ways to scoop up oil, that's fine, too.

It's not like scooping snow off your driveway, where the object is to make a path. Of course you don't want to shovel a path only to have the path obscured again. But when you are shoveling snow off your sidewalk, the object isn't to remove the largest quantity of snow possible. When you're scooping oil off the beach, that IS the object. To just remove oil for the sake of removing oil, because oil is toxic, and every ounce is an ounce closer to the finish, even if more oil is still streaming in.

Now, while I can't quit my job and jaunt off to Louisiana, I'm happy to chip in for those that don't live under my restrictions. I get paid on Friday. Drop me a line, Nicky, and I'll paypal you the first 5 percent of your fare. Twenty people do that, and you're on your way.

And if you still don't have enough by next payday, I'll chip in again. And I'll keep chipping in every payday. Because that is something I *can* do from here.

And I kind of like the idea of sending a Browncoat from our community to reach out to theirs, even in a small way.

Hell, I'm in for that. Except for the PayPal part. Never liked dealing with them. They have a bad habit of making money in your account simply disappear when you try to get to it.

Let me know what I can do to help. I don't have much, but I also don't spend much on gas. ;)

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Thursday, May 27, 2010 1:11 PM

SGG: Thanks! And yes, BP *will* fight actually paying any of the costs of this. You can take that to the bank.

Mike

"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence [sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero, Real World Event Discussions

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Thursday, May 27, 2010 1:14 PM

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...

Mike, if you're serious, pledge what you can in the "Senda Browncoat to the Gulf" thread. We're up to $75 from you guys, with hopefully another $50-75 from me first of July, toward a $250 ticket. More info in that thread.

"I'm just right. Kinda like the sun rising in the east and the world being round...its not a need its just the way it is." The Delusional "Hero", 3/1/10

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Thursday, May 27, 2010 1:17 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by pizmobeach:
Quote:
Originally posted by Niki2:

Anthony, you're a doll. Thanx for the offer, but better, since I don't think enough people would come on board, put the 5% away this month. If enough people pony up the money, I'll go, but I doubt it--so anyone who wants to contribute, put the money aside; if there's not enough in a month or so for me to go, donate it to those who are THERE! I can give you all the links you want and you can choose the group you want to contribute to.

San Francisco, CA (SFO) to New Orleans, LA (MSY)
Lowest Economy/Coach Fares published for travel between May 2010 and September 2010
Any applicable discounts will be added after you choose your flights.

American is the cheapest at $258 - shockingly low imho.

I'd bet Anthony could bump up his contribution, maybe $50? You can put me down for the $58. That's 3 others at $50. You have to promise to take plenty of videos and put them on youtube though (so Wulf can see what activism is).

Okay, you can put me down for $50.

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Thursday, May 27, 2010 1:21 PM

Freedom is Important because People are Important

"if you're asking me to volunteer to wade into toxic waste with no protection.."

Hello,

I don't think I ever advocated not wearing protection. I'm a priss. I wear long sleeves in the desert so that the sun doesn't touch my delicate alabaster skin. ;-)

I'm fair sure the Feds have many truckloads of chem suits somewhere. Portable decon stations, too. You know, in case of a chemical weapons attack.

Good time to break them out.

--Anthony

"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner

"You can lose a quark you don't girth." -Dreamtrove's words to live by, translated by Ipad

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Thursday, May 27, 2010 1:27 PM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!

At least BP can explain what is going on.

Obama sure as hell has no clue.

http://bp.concerts.com/gom/kentwells_update24052010.htm

Bones: "Don't 'rawr' her!"
Booth: "What? she'rawred' me first."

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Thursday, May 27, 2010 1:34 PM

PEACEKEEPER

Keeping order in every verse

BP won't pay a single penny towards cleaning this shit up.WE WILL!!! At the pumps.We are going to get hit with a massive hike in prices to bail out the bastards. Should be a law against THAT!!!.

Peacekeeper---keeping order in every verse!!!

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Thursday, May 27, 2010 1:44 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:
At least BP can explain what is going on.

Obama sure as hell has no clue.

Has BP explained to you how their "safe" plans all went to hell so quickly? I mean, you seem to think they have such a firm grip on things.

Tell us all again why more than a month later, they still haven't made any progress in capping their well that they fucked up so badly.

Oh, and congratulations on not going all "anti-Obama" or anything.

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Thursday, May 27, 2010 1:57 PM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!

Did you see the video , Kwickie?

Why the hell am I even asking ? Of course you didn't.

If you did, you'd notice the small fleet of specialized vessels situated around the well. Takes time to move that sort of equipment, come up with a plan, clear the area of debris enough to be able to work down there.....

I'm impressed with the daunting task they're faced with, make no mistake.

Haven't made any progress ? I was under the impression they HAD made pretty good progress on capping the well. At least, as of 2 hrs ago. Though some of the latest news isn't too great.

Quote:

BP oil spill update: Smooth sailing for 'top kill,' MMS director ousted

Even after the leaking well is permanently sealed, the Deepwater Horizon drama won't be anywhere near over. Just in Thursday's BP oil spill update, the MMS director is out, the spill is resized, and hearings proliferate on Capitol Hill.

And did you SEE / HEAR the presser by Obama ?

His failure to act, the Federal Govt's failure is beyond incomprehensible.

Bones: "Don't 'rawr' her!"
Booth: "What? she'rawred' me first."

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Thursday, May 27, 2010 2:22 PM

Quote:

If you did, you'd notice the small fleet of specialized vessels situated around the well. Takes time to move that sort of equipment, come up with a plan, clear the area of debris enough to be able to work down there.....

I'm impressed with the daunting task they're faced with, make no mistake.

So impressed with the way it's going that you accuse the federal government of having done abolutely NOTHING at all. Despite the fact that they responded in well under 24 hours, they did everything they could to put out the fire and search for survivors, they did everything they could to organize ALL the help they could find in the way of those specialized vessels situated around the well, they've asked BP time and time again what they needed in the way of help.

And you sit here trying to score a few cheap political points by claiming - wrongly, as you always are - that the Obama administration is doing literally NOTHING. You're so full of shit it's pouring out of your mouth at this point.

Meanwhile, what have YOU done?

Mike

"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence [sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero, Real World Event Discussions

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Thursday, May 27, 2010 2:24 PM

Quote:

And did you SEE / HEAR the presser by the President ?

His failure to act, the Federal Govt's failure is beyond incomprehensible.

You're just about five years too late with that criticism. Thousands died. You cheered.

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Thursday, May 27, 2010 2:34 PM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!

Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko:
So impressed with the way it's going that you accuse the federal government of having done abolutely NOTHING at all.

They've done less than nothing. The coast are barren, empty, void of any activity. Don't believe me ? Ask Bobby Jindal. Ask Plaquemines Parish President Billy Nungesser. Ask James Carville. They're down there. They're knee deep in the oil. You're a liar, and so is Obama. Straight up.

There's nothing you can say, there's no quip you can offer, no evasion you can toss out that'll distract America from what's really going on, right now.

Bones: "Don't 'rawr' her!"
Booth: "What? she'rawred' me first."

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Thursday, May 27, 2010 2:46 PM

Freedom is Important because People are Important

"I'd bet Anthony could bump up his contribution, maybe $50? You can put me down for the $58. That's 3 others at $50. You have to promise to take plenty of videos and put them on youtube though (so Wulf can see what activism is)."

Hello,

I can do $25 tomorrow and $25 in two weeks. A shade better, maybe, if I shop my groceries carefully. I blame the dogs for eating me out of house and home, but don't look too carefully at my gut. ;-)

--Anthony

"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner

"You can lose a quark you don't girth." -Dreamtrove's words to live by, translated by Ipad

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Thursday, May 27, 2010 2:50 PM