My Tryst with Vegetarianism by AnthonyT

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)

I have to have some meat with my meals now and again, too, Anthony. I try to eat LESS of it, and I try to be careful with where it comes from. You can't save the whole world by yourself, but you can make your little corner of it a little bit better. It's not enough, but it's more than nothing.

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Tuesday, June 1, 2010 5:06 PM

In the words of John McClane, "Welcome to the party, pal!"

I eat only free-range eggs & dolphin-safe tuna as my meat-y things. Still flyin'. For decades now.

Live Long, and Prosper eating less hormones & poisons.

The laughing Chrisisall

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Tuesday, June 1, 2010 5:08 PM

GEEZER

Keep the Shiny side up

A few weeks ago I went through the new David H. Koch Hall of Human Origins at the Smithsonian Natural Histoy Museum. Part of the exhibit noted that humans had evolved to eat a lot more meat than earlier hominids. Our digestive tract is designed to deal with an omnivorous diet, not strictly vegetarian.

In the Geezer household, we do tend to eat more salads, veggie dinners, stirfries, seafood, and organic meats than the average, but I don't think that we'll be giving up our monthly trip to five Guys for burgers, or quarterly barbeque pigouts. If I can get a whitetail deer or an antelope in my sights, I'll kill it, gut it, butcher it, and put it in the freezer for future dinners. Organic and chemical free. Yum.

"Keep the Shiny side up"

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Tuesday, June 1, 2010 5:18 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Geezer:
I'll kill it, gut it, butcher it, and put it in the freezer for future dinners.

Hannibal Lecter of the woods.
With faava beans, I assume? BWAHAH!

The laughing Chrisisall

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Tuesday, June 1, 2010 5:21 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
In the words of John McClane, "Welcome to the party, pal!"

I'm gonna kill six animals every time you quote that stupid-ass movie, Chris.

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Tuesday, June 1, 2010 5:22 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
Quote:
Originally posted by Geezer:
I'll kill it, gut it, butcher it, and put it in the freezer for future dinners.
Hannibal Lecter of the woods.
With faava beans, I assume? BWAHAH!

The laughing Chrisisall

And a nice Chianti!

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Tuesday, June 1, 2010 5:36 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko:
Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
In the words of John McClane, "Welcome to the party, pal!"

I'm gonna kill six animals every time you quote that stupid-ass movie, Chris.

Yippie-kay-yeah, mother-f**ker!

The who-knew Chrisisall

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Tuesday, June 1, 2010 5:43 PM

In general humans produce unusually high amounts of ATP compared to other animals given a similar quantity of food. It seems we became more efficient at digestion, and so could devote less energy (and size) to our intestines, and more energy (and size) to our brains.

I don't know if that means meat or what. It could mean lots of things.

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Tuesday, June 1, 2010 5:44 PM

MINCINGBEAST

I eat vegetarian most of the time, as a matter of taste, not a moral stance or health decision. I seldom crave meat, but could not do without dairy and eggs. And also, the blood of goy, and the tears of Arab children.

Just don't have an affair with Veganism. Vegans are perverts. You'll get a loathsome disease.

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Tuesday, June 1, 2010 5:50 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko:

I'm gonna kill six animals every time you quote that stupid-ass movie, Chris.

Well?

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Tuesday, June 1, 2010 5:55 PM

I DO not negotiate with terrorists!

But... how about a DEAL????

The laughing Chrisisall

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Tuesday, June 1, 2010 6:01 PM

Whole Foods offends me with their hoity-toity pretensiousness, ain't goin for the atmosphere, I want freakin groceries, and I'd rather they dumped all that trying to play upscale to justify the prices crap, and trimmed that garbage down to save money better spent on getting their prices down.

Sorry, but when I shop, I want groceries, if I want atmosphere, I'll go to a bar.

That said, I have the fortune (in truth, had the foresight cause I moved here on purpose) to live just north of a primary agricultural area fulla folk who think Monsanto is the devil, so I can get stuff about as organic as ya want - dead serious, you give me ten minutes, and I'll come back with a whole freakin chicken, still squawkin and pissed about the car ride, no shit.

Veggies not a problem, and if I want fresh fruit all I gotta do is stick out a hand and yoink an apple or cherry off the "decorative" trees at site three along my rounds - I have explicit permission and encouragement to do so, since the fallen fruit draws more wildlife than makes these folk comfortable.

Couple locals make real maple syrup too, so screw that caramel-colored HFCS in a plastic bottle crap.

Key to gettin it cheap, is livin next to it, alas - but tell ya what, you're probably better off hitting up the next farmers market and getting a bunch of leads, and then renting a minivan and FILLING that sucker when harvest comes, cut out the middle man and all that, yanno ?

Storage isn't often as big an issue as you'd think, since a cheap bookshelf can hold a LOT of stuff if you can it up first.
http://www.freshpreserving.com/pages/preserve__fresh_preserving__home_
canning_/33.php

Just some thoughts for ya.

-F

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Tuesday, June 1, 2010 6:18 PM

DREAMTROVE

That little guy is gonna kill a lot of animals

It's complicated, goes something like this

Humans are omnivores. Were decended from other omnivores, mice and squirrel like critters. I saw a squirrel catch a mouse last winter. It's an act of desperation. I think we had that discussion here.

Omnivore is not predator. An omnivore does not derive any unique nutrients from meat. So why does it exist at all? Omnivore metabolism is neither predator nor herbivores, it is actually based on pith, nuts, seeds, fruits and berries more than anything else.

Our meat fallback is evolutionary and very very old. We come from a famine frequent background. The quote was this, "For the omnivore, eating meat is an act of desperation." t beats dying out when your living in Africa.

So what happened, why did we upscale our meat consumption if there's no real added value? We destroyed our native sahara, and we quickly ran out of high protein foods. Though there is nothing unique in meat, there are some things which come from specific food sources a caveman may not have access to. It might be easier to find fish then to fish the plants that the fish ate that contained what we call fish oil, which actually is not synthesized by the fish, it's a vegetable product. But worse yet, it's hard to find anything in the desert.

Looking up the protein profile on foods will quickly answer why Anthony developed a taste for tofu. The major vegetarian mistake is to not have enough proteins, and to try to become an herbivore. Since we can't ruminate or digest cellulose, this is destined to end badly for us.

So, sure, humans can eat meat, but the ability to do so is not a recent evolution nor one that your chemistry favors. Just always be aware that it is a fallback metabolism, not your native one. Hence, your liable to have many more digestive problems with meat, even if it hasn't been poisoned or diseased.

As for the brain, yes, byte, we evolved larger brains and smaller guts, and much more ATP, probably for those large brains, but it might also have to do with our diet. Nuts overwhelmingly contain caffeine as a pesticide. It's enough to kill most things, but were resistant to it. Since we eat way more nuts than any other animal, we needed this high level of resistance just to survive. So don't give your cat coffee.

Anthony, thanks for the info, maybe there's an online resource for that. I tend to avoid meat, I was bombarded by the direct connection early on, since they're all around here, but I agree on the factory farming, and I don't know if you found the disease argument, but those places are a mess. That might be in part because they grind up the dead and feed them to the living, matrix style.

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Tuesday, June 1, 2010 6:23 PM

Oh HELL, that's what that red goo was in the pods?

Ugh.

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Tuesday, June 1, 2010 6:30 PM

DREAMTROVE

Frem

Good info, thanks. I'm surrounded by farmers of course, bu most people ain't. Some basic logic applies here as well: as closely related to the natural food, whatever it is, as you can get, the better.

This is another issue where the burger fails big. It's not a cow, it's some sort of ground cowmeat and probably bone, etc. Then it has something cheeselike on it, but it might be hydrogenated oils, the bread on the bun is likely made with substitution products like ethoxylated glycerides because they have a longer shelf life... It's just not food.

Around here the Amish and other Mennonites are the major food purists, but we also have some Hasidim and Some successful just avg country folk running farm stands.

Another general rule:

If it's food, it goes bad real quick.

The reason for this is that the bacteria that live in your stomach are also omnipresent in the environment. They will eat the food whether they're in your stomach or not. If they can't eat the bread, cheese and meat when its sitting on your table, the wont be ale to eat it when it's sitting in your stomach either. It stands a good chance of ending up as just clutter in your system.

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Tuesday, June 1, 2010 6:36 PM

DREAMTROVE

That's where BSE comes from, mad cow disease, oh, and cat food too, if you have cats, and I know at least frem has cats, you want cat food that does not contain "ash" because that is a euphemism for dead cats, yes, that's what happened to cats that get "put down" a euphemism for feline assassination, the kitty gets pushed to purina for a little filler, and if that cat died of some disease not so easily destroyed...

The cruelest joke of all is we have now had two cats who simply cant eat the stuff because of the cat content, for the most troublesome reason of all: they were allergic to cats.

We had one who was also allergic to himself, but now we have one who is only allergic to other cats.

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Tuesday, June 1, 2010 6:50 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by dreamtrove:

If it's food, it goes bad real quick.

Totally. Unless chilled to last.

The laughing Chrisisall

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Tuesday, June 1, 2010 7:19 PM

If you freezer burn stuff though, you break up the essential nutrient molecules by impaling them with water crystals.

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Tuesday, June 1, 2010 7:44 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Bytemite:
If you freezer burn stuff though, you break up the essential nutrient molecules by impaling them with water crystals.

Who says so?

The laughing Chrisisall

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Tuesday, June 1, 2010 8:08 PM

DMAANLILEILTT

my thing with the whole "DON'T-EAT-MEAT,-IT-KILLS-THE-ENVIRONMENT" thing is that it's crap. if everyone in the world at this second switched over to vegetarianism/veganism all the cows/pigs/sheep/goat/chickens would still be there, taking food, space and whatever. so, what would it acheive?

"I really am ruggedly handsome, aren't I?"

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Tuesday, June 1, 2010 8:38 PM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important

Hello,

It's the high concentration of the animals at factory farms that is the problem.

Lakes of shit.

Literally.

And the land can't absorb that much shit. On a traditional pasture, the cows etc. spread their shit over a wide area, fertilizing the land and helping the vegetation. On a factory farm, there's more shit than they know what to do with. It's toxic in that quantity, and spiked with the chemicals fed to the animals.

Which brings us to the issue of antibiotics used on the animals (since they are constantly injured or prone to illness due to living conditions.) The antibiotics are fed to them constantly, to prevent infections from their living conditions. So many animals being pumped with antibiotics all the time tends to breed antibiotic resistant bacteria. Super-plagues in waiting.

And then there's the water-chilling method for the chicken. Which is just gross. But I digress.

Suffice to say, if you are imagining a big field of animals, you are not imagining where your food comes from.

--Anthony

"On this matter, make no mistake. I want you to go fuck yourself long and hard, as well as anyone who agrees with you. I got no use for you." --Auraptor

"This vile and revolting malice - this is their true colors, always has been, you're just seeing it without the mask of justifications and excuses they hide it behind, is all. Make sure to remember it once they put the mask back on." --Fremdfirma

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Tuesday, June 1, 2010 9:52 PM

AGENTROUKA

Quote:
Originally posted by dmaanlileiltt:
my thing with the whole "DON'T-EAT-MEAT,-IT-KILLS-THE-ENVIRONMENT" thing is that it's crap. if everyone in the world at this second switched over to vegetarianism/veganism all the cows/pigs/sheep/goat/chickens would still be there, taking food, space and whatever. so, what would it acheive?

"I really am ruggedly handsome, aren't I?"

That's not a very clever expectation on your part, insisting on immediate effect or denouncing an entire strategy. If you stop polluting a river tody, it won't be clean immediately but in time it will recover, so it does make sense to stop polluting it right now.

If the demand for cheap, chemical-ladden, disgustingly produced meat sinks, then eventually less such meat will be produced.

That is, I believe, the desired, long-term effect.

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Tuesday, June 1, 2010 10:10 PM

DMAANLILEILTT

no, i'm not saying that is an expectation, i'm saying that the animals will still exist as wildlife insted of as farmed creatures, no matter how slow or fast the change is, so the impact of slowly reducing is negligable.

and on the other point, mountains of shit, most of my meat comes from the farm, to the market to my house. so, there are fields of animals grazing peacefully.

"I really am ruggedly handsome, aren't I?"

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Tuesday, June 1, 2010 10:30 PM

AGENTROUKA

Quote:
Originally posted by dmaanlileiltt:
no, i'm not saying that is an expectation, i'm saying that the animals will still exist as wildlife insted of as farmed creatures, no matter how slow or fast the change is, so the impact of slowly reducing is negligable.

and on the other point, mountains of shit, most of my meat comes from the farm, to the market to my house. so, there are fields of animals grazing peacefully.

I think it's fairly obvious that the vast majority of industrially farmed animals are in addition to any naturally occuring wildlife, not a merely differently housed form of it - or displacing naturally occuring wildlife through taking over their habitat for farmland. Meaning that wildlife is already gone.

These are animals species that would not even exist if not for humans engaging in a selective, controlled breeding process, for maximum meat and increased reproduction. Reducing the number of these "artificial" domestic animals should have a fairly large effect.

If you know for 100% sure that the meat you are eating comes from those grazing animals then you shouldn't worry, you're supporting responsible farming with your money. No one is asking people to become vegans, really. Just to eat less meat, and eat responsibly procuded meat.

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Wednesday, June 2, 2010 2:10 AM

KANEMAN

I'd like to think that's where my meat comes from. I tend to buy from a local butcher. However, I'm not really sure. Never asked before. I've never heard about the piles of shit problem...Reminds me of Kwicko's ideas and opinions

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Wednesday, June 2, 2010 6:14 AM

Well, my solution to the problem of factory farming isn't so much cutting it off, as taking it to the natural conclusion in the OTHER direction, upping the game, as it were.

CLONEBURGERS!

Seriously, why torture and mutilate an animal to produce "meat" when you can grow it in a freakin tank to whatever specs you want, veal, pate, or whatever suits your fancy, problem solved.

Hell, I eagerly await the day science can deliver to me a chicken nugget tree with honey flavored sap, cause that'd just be freakin awesome.

-MadScienceFrem

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Wednesday, June 2, 2010 7:53 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...

Ahhh, Anthony; quite an eye-opener, huh? I’m quite clear that while I recognize the disgusting aspects, like Mike my mentality is such that I want meat in my food. Tho’ now it’s almost exclusively chicken and fish; not sure why, it wasn’t deliberate. But I, too, despise vegetables—fruits, yes, but vegetables, no. Paula (ranger friend) and I decided as teenagers that brussel spouts were a Communist Conspiracy; nothing else explained their existence! The only veggie I truly adore (and literally LIVE ON in season) is artichoke. Them I could die for...

So I compromise, eat salads with some chicken thrown in, stuff like that. But I, too, make the effort to get the “least awful” chicken/fish that I can, and I denied myself tuna for DECADES until they finally accepted dolphin-safe netting.

I despise Whole Foods for the same reasons Frem does, plus their exhorbitant prices. I avoid them, and just look for “organic” (which is a lie) chicken. Closest I can come; I can’t afford “free range”, and frequently it’s not anyway.

What turned me off of vegans initially was some friends I had down in Santa Cruz who went vegan back in the 70s. They were NOT healthy people; I know now there’s a lot more known and they’d probably be healthy if they were educated vegans now, but I never forgot. Plus I simply cannot stand tofu!

Unfortunately you’re right, BlackNavarre, the key IS to live close to it. I’m far from it; at least we have enough demand around Marin that we can GET it, but it’s higher priced and we often can’t know if “organic” really IS organic, etc. The entire Pt. Reyes Peninsula, on the other hand, is devoted to cattle and other ranching, and the cattle/chickens are actually OUTSIDE, roaming around choosing their own foods (n the case of cows), as well as the milk being gathered in less-than-horrific methods (which is not to say perfectly). For that I am grateful, and make a sincere effort to support them. That’s just the mentality of the county, however, and long has been.

We DO have lots of small fruit stands, etc., and I try to buy from them as much as I can, and farmers’ markets, which usually reflect the kind of farming and ranching that goes on locally.

DT, I think your explanation of meat eating is very valid. In Afghanistan, for example, there was no beef available; only mutton, and lots of it. Given the land wasn’t terribly arable, and they use the fat and donkey dung for cooking, it made sense. That appears to have changed, and I’m sure you can get meat now, but I wonder just how much agriculture is still available, given the wars and the economy having turned to poppies.

Quote:
The cruelest joke of all is we have now had two cats who simply cant eat the stuff because of the cat content, for the most troublesome reason of all: they were allergic to cats.

That made me smile, envisioning it. Allergies aside, can just envision a cat looking at the food, then up to the human, saying “cannibalism? You’ve GOT to be joking!”

Dmaan, the world will never “suddenly” switch over, and if and when it switched, those animals would not be BRED FOR CONSUMPTION, so they wouldn’t be all over the place. Get it?

Anthony, everything you said:

Quote:
On a traditional pasture, the cows etc. spread their shit over a wide area, fertilizing the land and helping the vegetation.

That’s what we have out on Pt. Reyes. Outside cows are also good for the “environment” in that they clip the grass, which encourages new growth. You can always tell a cattle ranch and grazing area as you drive along; it’s land is green-green, right up to the fence line where the next property is dead brown. It’s purty.

Ooops, I see you made my point, and more, Agent:

Quote:
If you stop polluting a river tody, it won't be clean immediately but in time it will recover, so it does make sense to stop polluting it right now. If the demand for cheap, chemical-ladden, disgustingly produced meat sinks, then eventually less such meat will be produced.

and

Quote:
Additionally, if we stopped factory FARMING, the land would have a chance to recover, etc., etc. The story of corn and how we farm it and what we do with it is enough to gag a maggot. Well, he’d want meat around too, but you get the idea.

After all that, I must admit that now and again I go to McDonalds and eat a burger. Rarely, but I guess sometimes the desire for “shit” just comes around. Not KFC, tho’, the smell that emanates from there precludes me EVER walking in the door. We call it “Dirty Bird”.

Maybe someday people will smarten up...I’m not holding my breath in the meantime, tho’, and I doubt it will take hold in any serious way in my lifetime. I’ll leave you younger folk to reap the harvest of our over-production and poor production of food!

Operative Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
signing off

To our President: “Mr. President, you're a god damn, mother fucking liar. Fuck you, you cock sucking community activist piece of shit.... oh, go fuck yourself, Mr. President” ...Raptor

To Anthony, unquestionably the most civil person on this forum: “Go fuck yourself. On this matter, make no mistake. I want you to go fuck yourself long and hard, as well as anyone who agrees with you. I got no use for you. ...Raptor

To Frem: “You miserable piece of shit.” ...Raptor

...so much for "together"...this, instead, weakens us...

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Wednesday, June 2, 2010 7:57 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko:
Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
In the words of John McClane, "Welcome to the party, pal!"

I'm gonna kill six animals every time you quote that stupid-ass movie, Chris.
Yippie-kay-yeah, mother-f**ker!

- 6 Dolphins. That's on you.

Next time, it's whales. Yummy, yummy whales.

Mike

On this matter, make no mistake. I want you to go fuck yourself long and hard, as well as anyone who agrees with you. I got no use for you. --Auraptor

This vile and revolting malice - this is their true colors, always has been, you're just seeing it without the mask of justifications and excuses they hide it behind, is all. Make sure to remember it once they put the mask back on. --Fremdfirma

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Wednesday, June 2, 2010 7:57 AM

WULFENSTAR

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg

ahem...

"No. Humans will die out. We're weak. Dinosaurs survived on rotten flesh. You got diarrhea last week from a Wendy's."

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Wednesday, June 2, 2010 7:58 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Bytemite:
Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko:

I'm gonna kill six animals every time you quote that stupid-ass movie, Chris.

Well?

I just picked up 6 free kittens. My python is hungry.

Blame it on Chris.

Mike

On this matter, make no mistake. I want you to go fuck yourself long and hard, as well as anyone who agrees with you. I got no use for you. --Auraptor

This vile and revolting malice - this is their true colors, always has been, you're just seeing it without the mask of justifications and excuses they hide it behind, is all. Make sure to remember it once they put the mask back on. --Fremdfirma

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Wednesday, June 2, 2010 8:02 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...

Hee, hee, hee, made me giggle. I have a problem with feeding rabbits to snakes (for obvious reasons), so end up buying multiple big rats, which costs more. I like rats, too, unfortunately--domesticated ones, anyway, but I buy frozen 'cuz I can't stand to watch the snake kill 'em. Raised both mice and rats in quantity at one time, when I had a lot of herps...gave it up, couldn't look 'em in the eye. Just a totally hopeless tree hugger, that's me!

Operative Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
signing off

To our President: “Mr. President, you're a god damn, mother fucking liar. Fuck you, you cock sucking community activist piece of shit.... oh, go fuck yourself, Mr. President” ...Raptor

To Anthony, unquestionably the most civil person on this forum: “Go fuck yourself. On this matter, make no mistake. I want you to go fuck yourself long and hard, as well as anyone who agrees with you. I got no use for you. ...Raptor

To Frem: “You miserable piece of shit.” ...Raptor

...so much for "together"...this, instead, weakens us...

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Wednesday, June 2, 2010 8:04 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by kaneman:
I'd like to think that's where my meat comes from. I tend to buy from a local butcher. However, I'm not really sure. Never asked before. I've never heard about the piles of shit problem...Reminds me of Kwicko's ideas and opinions

Be honest - most of the meat you eat comes out of your daddy's zipper.

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Wednesday, June 2, 2010 8:07 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Niki2:

Hee, hee, hee, made me giggle. I have a problem with feeding rabbits to snakes (for obvious reasons), so end up buying multiple big rats, which costs more. I like rats, too, unfortunately--domesticated ones, anyway, but I buy frozen 'cuz I can't stand to watch the snake kill 'em. Raised both mice and rats in quantity at one time, when I had a lot of herps...gave it up, couldn't look 'em in the eye. Just a totally hopeless tree hugger, that's me!

Thank you, Niki, for taking that purely in the joking spirit in which it was intended.

NO, I don't feed kittens to snakes. But I will be responsible for some dead animals today. Turkey, chicken, pig, cow, deer, fish, lamb... something's dying before dinner is finished.

And just for Chris, I might have to have seconds.

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Wednesday, June 2, 2010 8:12 AM

KANEMAN

Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko:
Quote:
Originally posted by kaneman:
I'd like to think that's where my meat comes from. I tend to buy from a local butcher. However, I'm not really sure. Never asked before. I've never heard about the piles of shit problem...Reminds me of Kwicko's ideas and opinions

Be honest - most of the meat you eat comes out of your daddy's zipper.

I don't lie. However, that is hilarious...

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Wednesday, June 2, 2010 9:46 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko:

Next time, it's whales.

Now I have a machine gun
Ho Ho Ho

The laughing Chrisisall

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Wednesday, June 2, 2010 9:57 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko:

Next time, it's whales.
Now I have a machine gun
Ho Ho Ho

The laughing Chrisisall

This little piggy went "Weee-weee-weee!", all the way home. In a BLT. :)

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Wednesday, June 2, 2010 10:53 AM

PIZMOBEACH

... fully loaded, safety off...

Quote:
Originally posted by AnthonyT:
Hello,

About two months ago, I had the terrible misfortune to read a book called "Eating Animals." Until I read this book, I enjoyed the blissful ignorance of not knowing where my food came from or how it was prepared.

Until then, I had been a meatatarian. No veggies at all. I'm sure I suffered from some dietary shortfalls and vitamin deficiencies as a result. I was a meat and potatoes man (and still argue that potatoes are a vegetable, and that their re-designation to 'starch' is hurtful and cruel.) Nothing green. Or red. Or from a tree. I didn't eat fruits or vegetables, and the only salad I ever consumed was at Olive Garden. (Something about their dressing makes it palatable for me.)

The author of 'Eating Animals' makes a good argument for not eating animals due to the incredible suffering they endure. This fell flat with me. While I find any suffering lamentable (particularly the horror-stories in the book), I always assumed my animals would suffer on their way to my dinner plate, and so it was just arguing degrees of a condition I'd already accepted.

However, the minority of the book is devoted to environmental and food hazards. As in, "How does the Factory Farming Process try to Destroy me and the Environment?" THIS rang a chord with me that was so overpowering that for the past two months I've been living as a vegetarian. I was forced into it, because the majority of all food grown for US markets is Factory Farmed, and it is easier to order a Vegetarian meal than to ask, "Pardon me, what is the retained water percentage of your poultry?" or "Can you tell me what farm provides your beef?"

So, this green-virgin has been hatefully subsisting on Vegetarian meals for 60 days. I actually developed a taste for properly made tofu and veggie burgers during this time, but in two months of veggie eating, I never really lost a constant craving for meat.

Finally, I have broken my meat fast. It's expensive, but there are small farms that raise air-chilled organic pastured chicken and organic pastured beef. Whole Foods, a crushingly priced market expanding into my area, thankfully carries the air-chilled chicken. I order my beef directly from a local farmer. I've learned to eat substantially less meat, having to make small quantities last due to their price. As such, my diet has improved, though I resent it constantly.

If anyone lives in Phoenix and needs a list of suppliers for non-factory farmed food, let me know.

And if anyone likes their KFC or McDonalds, and doesn't mind living in ignorance, do NOT read "Eating Animals."

I just couldn't close my eyes and pretend after they'd been opened.

--Anthony

Congratulations on your "terrible misfortune" as you say. For someone who values Truth as much as you do I think you have just stepped out of the shadows food-wise. I suggest you read The Omnivore's Dilemma or watch Food Inc if you feel yourself weakening. (The section on PolyFace Farms is remarkable - talk about showing us how it should be done) http://www.polyfacefarms.com/
I also suggest visiting your local farmer's markets and get the real deal food stuffs - the difference is amazing, chiefly FLAVOR. If you've only been getting your veggies from your local Big Box Food conglomerate then it's no wonder you haven't liked them all that much. Veggies done right can be transcendent.

Scifi movie music + Firefly dialogue clips, 24 hours a day - http://www.scifiradio.com

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Wednesday, June 2, 2010 11:08 AM

Funny you should mention rabbits...

That "stupid" rabbit when kept moving TOWARDS me, which, for a rabbit is pretty stupid behavior, you either freeze, or you run, you don't switch back and forth while moving towards a threat...

Well, he ain't as stupid as I thought - see, one reason we HAD (as in past tense, the Owl and his girlfriend took care of a lotta that!) a rabbit population problem is my presence out there scares off the predators, you see.

What started to tip me off was when he comes runnin around the corner of Bldg#16 and runs around my leg and does that bunnypop sentry pose behind me, and I look back the other way to see one of the cats who had been chasing him pull up short and decide to go do something else.

And then I realized, this is the bunny who did *not* get eaten - cause he put 2+2 together in his head in a way most bunnies can't, and he's now been hangin around my doorstep besides.

I've taken to calling him "Fiver".

-Frem

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Wednesday, June 2, 2010 11:14 AM

Oh, yes, flavor/nutritional value...

I do not own a microwave, and will not have one in my place - not only do they degrade the flavor and nutritional value of food, they encourage both a certain laziness, and incline one towards products designed for microwaving, which are often loaded with all kinda stuff you really shouldn't be dumping down your gullet.

I did mock my niece repeatedly about the impatience of her own generation, what with her standing in front of the microwave tapping her foot like that.

But then, remember, I can bang out breakfast in like eight minutes flat, too.

-Frem

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Wednesday, June 2, 2010 11:31 AM

Watership Down!

Yeah, definitely prescient of the little guy, haven't heard rabbits are particularly known for their foresight.

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Wednesday, June 2, 2010 12:10 PM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...

Rabbits are smarter than most people think. Problem is, in an emergency their flght response takes over and brains go right out the window. In that respect, your guy is definitely unique.

I've found, however, that once they find something that works in a particular situation, they'll go back to it again and again. Fiver's found his, no doubt!

Poor little Fiver; me, I'd let him in, of course...desperately needing yet another mouth to feed, naturally...

But they're sure entertaining to watch and interact with, especially when they get pissed off, push things with their nose, dig pillows, throw things, or get "rogue neurals".

My smallest, teeeny one Midi is by far the fiercest of the remaining three; she'll take on anyone (to a point). But then, most small critters are fiestier than big ones...including humans. Hey, BlackNavarre, I wonder if...well, whatever.

Operative Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
signing off

To our President: “Mr. President, you're a god damn, mother fucking liar. Fuck you, you cock sucking community activist piece of shit.... oh, go fuck yourself, Mr. President” ...Raptor

To Anthony, unquestionably the most civil person on this forum: “Go fuck yourself. On this matter, make no mistake. I want you to go fuck yourself long and hard, as well as anyone who agrees with you. I got no use for you. ...Raptor

To Frem: “You miserable piece of shit.” ...Raptor

To Niki: “My guess is it won't just be your ugly face you dislike.....Well, it's true......if you had a soul.”

...Remember, remember, the ugliest member...

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Wednesday, June 2, 2010 12:13 PM

WULFENSTAR

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg

Oh, just eat a fucking steak and STFU.

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Wednesday, June 2, 2010 12:16 PM

MINCINGBEAST

Bunnies are clever, or at least very manipulative. My bunnies may have limited problem solving skills, but they are excellent at getting treats, getting into trouble, and destroying stuff.

One of my hated bunnies stamps its feet to demand raisins. It worked once, so she assumes that it will always work (and it does). The other is a genius at escaping her hutch and/or play area...mostly because she likes to hang out in my bathtub for some inexplicable reason.

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Wednesday, June 2, 2010 12:23 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko:

This little piggy went "Weee-weee-weee!", all the way home. In a BLT. :)

Oh you stupid motherfuckers no No NO!!!!

The laughing Chrisisall

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Wednesday, June 2, 2010 4:00 PM

Oh indeedy, the bunnies round here are downright aggressive critters when they wanna be, they chased the raccoons out of the park in the middle of site three, and I got to watch the tail end of that, it was hi-larious, and me mockin the bandits for getting their butts kicked by herbivores half their size...

-F

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Wednesday, June 2, 2010 4:27 PM

Night Of The Lepus...

The laughing Chrisisall

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Wednesday, June 2, 2010 4:43 PM

Oh get OUT of my head, Chris!

Yeah, that goes through my head a lot, as I recall it was good ole Deforest Kelley in that one.

Also "That's no ordinary rabbit!"

Oh and Nik, if you'd like another mouth to feed, how bout this one ?
http://www.detnews.com/article/20100602/METRO01/6020384/1409/Alligator
-found-on-street-in-Trenton
I swear, this is a weird damn place.

Cute lil guy though, ain't he ?
Just look at that big friendly smile!

-F

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Wednesday, June 2, 2010 4:52 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Fremdfirma:
Oh get OUT of my head, Chris!

No.

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Wednesday, June 2, 2010 4:55 PM