This kinda got touched on in a thread recently, and I found this article interesting. I disagree that not being religious is "laziness", as the author s..."/>

REAL WORLD EVENT DISCUSSIONS

'Spiritual' v. 'Religious'

POSTED BY: NIKI2
UPDATED: Wednesday, June 9, 2010 17:55
SHORT URL:
VIEWED: 1377
PAGE 1 of 1

Saturday, June 5, 2010 2:12 PM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


This kinda got touched on in a thread recently, and I found this article interesting. I disagree that not being religious is "laziness", as the author says at the end. From what I've seen, religion often has nothing to do with community, tho' in other cases it definitely does. I would ask: Is it better to be part of an organized religion and care for those in that community in times of need, or follow one's spiritual beliefs and give to those in need in general? Of course that only applies to people who are not part of an organized religion yet DO care for others. Either way, I think rejecting organized religion is more a case of disillusion with it, maybe also seeing behind the curtain, than it is laziness.

I also somewhat reject the word "trendy". I came to my beliefs through my own self-education, and had no idea when I did how big our buddhist community is or that it might be "trendy" to reject the organized religion. I think to call it "trendy" is misleading.

Just thought I'd put this article "out there" for those interested.
Quote:

"I'm spiritual but not religious."

It's a trendy phrase people often use to describe their belief that they don't need organized religion to live a life of faith.

But for Jesuit priest James Martin, the phrase also hints at something else: egotism.

"Being spiritual but not religious can lead to complacency and self-centeredness," says Martin, an editor at America, a national Catholic magazine based in New York City. "If it's just you and God in your room, and a religious community makes no demands on you, why help the poor?"

Religious debates erupt over everything from doctrine to fashion. Martin has jumped into a running debate over the "I'm spiritual but not religious" phrase.

The "I'm spiritual but not religious" community is growing so much that one pastor compared it to a movement. In a 2009 survey by the research firm LifeWay Christian Resources, 72 percent of millennials (18- to 29-year-olds) said they're "more spiritual than religious." The phrase is now so commonplace that it's spawned its own acronym ("I'm SBNR") and Facebook page: SBNR.org.

But what exactly does being "spiritual but not religious" mean, and could there be hidden dangers in living such a life?

Did you choose "Burger King Spirituality"?

Heather Cariou, a New York City-based author who calls herself spiritual instead of religious, doesn't think so. She's adopted a spirituality that blends Buddhism, Judaism and other beliefs.

"I don't need to define myself to any community by putting myself in a box labeled Baptist, or Catholic, or Muslim," she says. "When I die, I believe all my accounting will be done to God, and that when I enter the eternal realm, I will not walk though a door with a label on it."

BJ Gallagher, a Huffington Post blogger who writes about spirituality, says she's SBNR because organized religion inevitably degenerates into tussles over power, ego and money.

Gallagher tells a parable to illustrate her point:

"God and the devil were walking down a path one day when God spotted something sparkling by the side of the path. He picked it up and held it in the palm of his hand.

"Ah, Truth," he said.

"Here, give it to me," the devil said. "I'll organize it."

Gallagher says there's nothing wrong with people blending insights from different faith traditions to create what she calls a "Burger King Spirituality -- have it your way."

She disputes the notion that spiritual people shun being accountable to a community.

"Twelve-step people have a brilliant spiritual community that avoids all the pitfalls of organized religion," says Gallagher, author of "The Best Way Out is Always Through."

"Each recovering addict has a 'god of our own understanding,' and there are no priests or intermediaries between you and your god. It's a spiritual community that works.''

Nazli Ekim, who works in public relations in New York City, says calling herself spiritual instead of religious is her way of taking responsibility for herself.

Ekim was born in a Muslim family and raised in Istanbul, Turkey. She prayed to Allah every night, until she was 13 and had to take religion classes in high school.Then one day, she says she had to take charge of her own beliefs.

"I had this revelation that I bow to no one, and I've been spiritually a much happier person," says Ekim, who describers herself now as a Taoist, a religious practice from ancient China that emphasizes the unity of humanity and the universe.

"I make my own mistakes and take responsibility for them. I've lied, cheated, hurt people -- sometimes on purpose. Did I ever think I will burn in hell for all eternity? I didn't. Did I feel bad and made up for my mistakes? I certainly did, but not out of fear of God."

Seminaries, churches, mosques and other institutions will struggle for survival if they don't somehow convince future generations that being religious isn't so bad after all, religion scholars warn.

Jennifer Walters, dean of religious life at Smith College in Massachusetts, says there's a lot of good in old-time religion.

Religious communities excel at caring for members in difficult times, encouraging members to serve others and teaching religious practices that have been tested and wrestled with for centuries, Walters says.

"Hymn-singing, forms of prayer and worship, teachings about social justice and forgiveness -- all these things are valuable elements of religious wisdom," Walters says. "Piecing it together by yourself can be done, but with great difficulty."

Being a spiritual Lone Ranger fits the tenor of our times, says June-Ann Greeley, a theology and philosophy professor.

"Religion demands that we accord to human existence some absolutes and eternal truths, and in a post-modern culture, that becomes all but impossible," says Greeley, who teaches at Sacred Heart University in Connecticut.

It's much easier for "spiritual" people to go on "spiritual walkabouts," Greeley says.

"People seem not to have the time nor the energy or interest to delve deeply into any one faith or religious tradition," Greeley says. "So they move through, collecting ideas and practices and tenets that most appeal to the self, but making no connections to groups or communities."

Being spiritual instead of religious may sound sophisticated, but the choice may ultimately come down to pettiness, says Martin, the Jesuit priest, who writes about the phrase in his book, "The Jesuit Guide to (Almost Everything)."

"Religion is hard," he says. "Sometimes it's just too much work. People don't feel like it. I have better things to do with my time. It's plain old laziness."

http://www.cnn.com/2010/LIVING/personal/06/03/spiritual.but.not.religi
ous/index.html?hpt=C1



Hippie Operative Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
signing off


To our President: “Mr. President, you're a god damn, mother fucking liar. Fuck you, you cock sucking community activist piece of shit.... oh, go fuck yourself, Mr. President” ...Raptor

To Anthony, unquestionably the most civil person on this forum: “Go fuck yourself. On this matter, make no mistake. I want you to go fuck yourself long and hard, as well as anyone who agrees with you. I got no use for you. ...Raptor

To Frem: “You miserable piece of shit.” ...Raptor

To Niki: “My guess is it won't just be your ugly face you dislike.....Well, it's true......if you had a soul.” ...Raptor

...Remember, remember, the ugliest member...

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Saturday, June 5, 2010 2:26 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)




Reminded me of this recent gem...



http://www.theonion.com/articles/priest-religious-but-not-really-spiri
tual,17373
/

Quote:

Priest Religious, But Not Really Spiritual

BOSTON—Father Clancy Donahue of St. Michael Catholic Church told reporters Wednesday that while he believed in blindly adhering to the dogma and ceremonies of his faith, he tried not to get too bogged down by actual spirituality. "I'm not so much into having a relationship with God as I am into mechanically conducting various rituals," Donahue said. "To me, it just feels empty to contemplate a higher power without blindly obeying canon law and protecting the church as an institution." Donahue emphasized that although he did not personally agree with those who pondered the eternal, he had nothing against them.



Heck, I just believe in people. Guess that makes me "trendy". I never "got" church, even when hauled there by grandparents. They sent me to Sunday School, too, where I argued with the pastor, because he wanted to look up Bible passages for why or whether to help someone in need, and I pointed out that rather than waste time trying to justify helping someone else, you should just frikkin' HELP THEM, and worry about why later on.



Mike

On this matter, make no mistake. I want you to go fuck yourself long and hard, as well as anyone who agrees with you. I got no use for you. --Auraptor

This vile and revolting malice - this is their true colors, always has been, you're just seeing it without the mask of justifications and excuses they hide it behind, is all. Make sure to remember it once they put the mask back on. --Fremdfirma

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Saturday, June 5, 2010 2:55 PM

TRAVELER


I would be a hypocrite to belong to a religion that I didn't fully share in its beliefs.

And since I have found none that share my personal beliefs I stand alone. God and I have our personal relationship. I don't need a religion to tell me what sort of god to worship and I don't push my beliefs on others.

I feel it is lazy to simply except what some religion tells you to believe instead of doing the search yourself.


http://www.imdb.com/mymovies/list?l=28764731
Traveler

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Saturday, June 5, 2010 3:02 PM

MINCINGBEAST


Interesting.

Actually, I am religious without a hint of spirit. And I'm an atheist besides. By religious, I mean that I'm drawn to rules, hierarchy, organization, and structure. I like ritual; no, need it. I do not believe in...anything...but there's something religious about my approach to many aspects of my anti-life.

Spirituality strikes me as a bastard hybrid of wish-fulfillment and laziness, but I am an asshole and so on. I believe in nothing, but sometimes am drawn to the triumph of fail and meaninglessness of life.

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Saturday, June 5, 2010 3:35 PM

DREAMTROVE


Niki

Can one not be both? I'm spiritually or religiously a Taoist, which is a belief of the search for the way, but like many eastern religions, taoists tend to believe that you can find guideposts to the way in all walks of life. Sure, Lao Tse's Tao te Ching is generally accepted as the core text, but it's far foam the end all be all of yin-yang spirituality. I would not be at all a hypocrite to be a member of a Christian church, attend a synagogue, bow to Mecca, take part in Hindu meditation before heading off to a Theravada Buddhist temple. Sure, some of the above religions might think it was hypocritcal, but probably not If I only did one of the above.

My general feeling is that religion there for you to have advice and support, if you opt not to have one, I think you lose a little bit.

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Saturday, June 5, 2010 3:57 PM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Jezus, Mike, is that for REAL?!?! I can't imagine someone being stupid enough to say that, much less believe it! Or is that a parody, which seems more likely?

I certainly agree that it makes more sense from my point of view to just DO what's right, instead of trying to find validation for it! That's almost equally absurd, and I'm sure HE was serious!

Traveler, you hit the nail on the head, for ME:
Quote:

I don't need a religion to tell me what sort of god to worship and I don't push my beliefs on others.

I feel it is lazy to simply except what some religion tells you to believe instead of doing the search yourself.



Of course one can be both, DT, the article was about being eithr one or the other, not both. That was the question. There's no question that some people in any organized religion are spiritual, but I feel the same way as the person in the article, for myself:
Quote:

Ekim was born in a Muslim family and raised in Istanbul, Turkey. She prayed to Allah every night, until she was 13 and had to take religion classes in high school.Then one day, she says she had to take charge of her own beliefs.

"I had this revelation that I bow to no one, and I've been spiritually a much happier person," says Ekim, who describers herself now as a Taoist, a religious practice from ancient China that emphasizes the unity of humanity and the universe.

"I make my own mistakes and take responsibility for them. I've lied, cheated, hurt people -- sometimes on purpose. Did I ever think I will burn in hell for all eternity? I didn't. Did I feel bad and made up for my mistakes? I certainly did, but not out of fear of God."

I just thought it would be interesting to hear different people's take on this, which it already is...


Hippie Operative Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
signing off


To our President: “Mr. President, you're a god damn, mother fucking liar. Fuck you, you cock sucking community activist piece of shit.... oh, go fuck yourself, Mr. President” ...Raptor

To Anthony, unquestionably the most civil person on this forum: “Go fuck yourself. On this matter, make no mistake. I want you to go fuck yourself long and hard, as well as anyone who agrees with you. I got no use for you. ...Raptor

To Frem: “You miserable piece of shit.” ...Raptor

To Niki: “My guess is it won't just be your ugly face you dislike.....Well, it's true......if you had a soul.” ...Raptor

...Remember, remember, the ugliest member...

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Saturday, June 5, 2010 4:02 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Sorry, Niki - I should have clarified; it's from The Onion, America's #1 Fake Newspaper. :)

It just struck me as humorous when I saw it.

But I don't doubt there are those who share the sentiment...

Mike

On this matter, make no mistake. I want you to go fuck yourself long and hard, as well as anyone who agrees with you. I got no use for you. --Auraptor

This vile and revolting malice - this is their true colors, always has been, you're just seeing it without the mask of justifications and excuses they hide it behind, is all. Make sure to remember it once they put the mask back on. --Fremdfirma

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Saturday, June 5, 2010 4:07 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

Originally posted by dreamtrove:
Niki

Can one not be both? I'm spiritually or religiously a Taoist, which is a belief of the search for the way, but like many eastern religions, taoists tend to believe that you can find guideposts to the way in all walks of life. Sure, Lao Tse's Tao te Ching is generally accepted as the core text, but it's far foam the end all be all of yin-yang spirituality. I would not be at all a hypocrite to be a member of a Christian church, attend a synagogue, bow to Mecca, take part in Hindu meditation before heading off to a Theravada Buddhist temple. Sure, some of the above religions might think it was hypocritcal, but probably not If I only did one of the above.

My general feeling is that religion there for you to have advice and support, if you opt not to have one, I think you lose a little bit.



On the other hand, if you choose to have ONLY one source for advice and support, you lose a great deal more, I'd say. I have no religion, but I'll listen to any reasonable source.

Mike

On this matter, make no mistake. I want you to go fuck yourself long and hard, as well as anyone who agrees with you. I got no use for you. --Auraptor

This vile and revolting malice - this is their true colors, always has been, you're just seeing it without the mask of justifications and excuses they hide it behind, is all. Make sure to remember it once they put the mask back on. --Fremdfirma

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Saturday, June 5, 2010 5:08 PM

FREMDFIRMA


Quote:

Originally posted by Kwicko:
They sent me to Sunday School, too, where I argued with the pastor...


I got pushed into that to appease the rest of the family - my mother bribed me to go each time with Fruity Pebbles, which to this day I get a bit of a snicker at having.

They eventually kicked me out, got pissed off at me pokin holes in their beliefs, pointing out contradictions, asking... questions...

Honestly it was reading that horrible book that did the most to turn me against them, and that was AFTER witnessing the most "religious" people being the worst behaved up till that point and already being annoyed about it.

Mmmm, Fruity Pebbles, tastes like religion!

-Frem

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Saturday, June 5, 2010 5:15 PM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important


Hello,

It's possible that faith in higher powers, philosophies, or ideals does something to empower the individual and give them strength and a sense of direction.

All of which is 'spiritual' and none of which is part of religious organization, in and of itself.

For any religious organization that wants to continue to exist and have influence in the world, the thought of spiritualism without religion is distasteful. It implies the flock can survive without the (well compensated) shepherds.

There were some early Christians who thought that God lived inside of everyone. They thought that you needed no intercessors between yourself and God. Their idea of spirituality was a personal journey to find the godlike qualities inside yourself and work to manifest them. Some of these folks even thought that women could minister and that there was no superiority of one sex over the other.

They got squashed pretty hard. They were a threat to the establishment. Their texts are non-canonical and heretical as a result. Some of their notions were pretty wild, even to me. Still, that core belief? Bothers me not one whit. Sounds healthy.

--Anthony




"On this matter, make no mistake. I want you to go fuck yourself long and hard, as well as anyone who agrees with you. I got no use for you." --Auraptor

"This vile and revolting malice - this is their true colors, always has been, you're just seeing it without the mask of justifications and excuses they hide it behind, is all. Make sure to remember it once they put the mask back on." --Fremdfirma

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Saturday, June 5, 2010 5:20 PM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Fascinating, Anthony. But that they had survived...I too like the core idea.

And I think your analysis
Quote:

For any religious organization that wants to continue to exist and have influence in the world, the thought of spiritualism without religion is distasteful. It implies the flock can survive without the (well compensated) shepherds.
Also what I believe.


Hippie Operative Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
signing off


To our President: “Mr. President, you're a god damn, mother fucking liar. Fuck you, you cock sucking community activist piece of shit.... oh, go fuck yourself, Mr. President” ...Raptor

To Anthony, unquestionably the most civil person on this forum: “Go fuck yourself. On this matter, make no mistake. I want you to go fuck yourself long and hard, as well as anyone who agrees with you. I got no use for you. ...Raptor

To Frem: “You miserable piece of shit.” ...Raptor

To Niki: “My guess is it won't just be your ugly face you dislike.....Well, it's true......if you had a soul.” ...Raptor

...Remember, remember, the ugliest member...

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Saturday, June 5, 2010 5:49 PM

DREAMTROVE


Mike,

True, but you also lose the support of an organization. Right now, Pirate News makes a decent case that Judaism gives you a lot of support, I also think the Mormon Church appears to. I suspect the antithesis of this would be the church of Ayn Rand, or the Westboro Baptist Church.

It's useful to be a Muslim in certain situations, too. It just depends what your going to want the support for. I'll grant that at least locally there is no support from my rural taoist community.

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Sunday, June 6, 2010 5:03 AM

FREMDFIRMA


Quote:

Originally posted by AnthonyT:
There were some early Christians who thought that God lived inside of everyone. They thought that you needed no intercessors between yourself and God. Their idea of spirituality was a personal journey to find the godlike qualities inside yourself and work to manifest them. Some of these folks even thought that women could minister and that there was no superiority of one sex over the other.


Do you mean Deism, Anthony ?

Cause it took a good long while to actually squash, and still exists, quite significantly, especially within the Unitarian Universalists.

Many of our founding fathers were, in fact, Diests.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deism#Deism_in_the_United_States

-Frem

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Sunday, June 6, 2010 5:46 AM

BYTEMITE


Quote:

Originally posted by Fremdfirma:


Mmmm, Fruity Pebbles, tastes like religion!

-Frem



Fruity Pebbles milk is almost proof of the existence of a higher being (or several).

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Sunday, June 6, 2010 5:51 AM

HKCAVALIER


Quote:

Originally posted by Fremdfirma:
Quote:

Originally posted by AnthonyT:
There were some early Christians who thought that God lived inside of everyone. They thought that you needed no intercessors between yourself and God. Their idea of spirituality was a personal journey to find the godlike qualities inside yourself and work to manifest them. Some of these folks even thought that women could minister and that there was no superiority of one sex over the other.


Do you mean Deism, Anthony ?

Cause it took a good long while to actually squash, and still exists, quite significantly, especially within the Unitarian Universalists.

Many of our founding fathers were, in fact, Diests.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deism#Deism_in_the_United_States

-Frem

Oh, no no no, he's talkin' Gnosticism, yo:

Jesus said, "If your leaders say to you, 'See, the Kingdom is in the sky,' then the birds of the sky will precede you. If they say to you, 'It is in the sea,' then the fish of the sea will precede you. Rather, the Kingdom is inside of you, and it is outside of you. When you come to know yourselves, then you will become known, and you will realize that it is you who are the children of the living Father. But if you will not know yourselves, you dwell in poverty and you are that poverty."
--the Gospel of Thomas

Words to live by! Favorite Bible verse of all time! Too bad they took it out before the whole Christian thing got off the ground. Can't very well run a business selling something everyone already has...unless you lie about it.

HKCavalier

Hey, hey, hey, don't be mean. We don't have to be mean, because, remember, no matter where you go, there you are.

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Sunday, June 6, 2010 5:58 AM

BYTEMITE


Deism took a lot of ideas from gnosticism, which basically is about there's an order of emanations of the creator/supreme being, and two always emanate together, male and female. the lowest emanation of god, Sophia, wisdom, lost her male counterpart, and emanating alone, accidentally created the malicious being in the Old Testament, the demiurge, who was unable to see Sophia and the rest of the hierarchy and so thought HE had created everything. Jesus Christ is supposed to be the genuine counterpart of Sophia. And the world and everything in it are manifestations on a small scale of the actual God.

Anyway, blah blah blah. Deism actually takes as a core believe of the divine spark in everyone, which can be cultivated.

So do the Stone Masons, btw, and a lot of the Founding Fathers were Masons, as well.


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Sunday, June 6, 2010 6:00 AM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important


Hello,

I can't recall what it was called, but that quote above is very familiar to what I've read in the past about it. One of those books they voted not to include, right?

Ah, Mrs. King was always so sympathetic towards me when I said, "Those people on the Island with the Labyrinth on it" and such other ambiguities. God Bless her.

She did insist I learn the proper names for things, but appreciated that I was getting the information even if I was forgetting the names and numbers.

--Anthony





"On this matter, make no mistake. I want you to go fuck yourself long and hard, as well as anyone who agrees with you. I got no use for you." --Auraptor

"This vile and revolting malice - this is their true colors, always has been, you're just seeing it without the mask of justifications and excuses they hide it behind, is all. Make sure to remember it once they put the mask back on." --Fremdfirma

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Sunday, June 6, 2010 6:29 AM

BYTEMITE


Minos, btw. That's why it was called the Minotaur: cow of Minos.

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Sunday, June 6, 2010 6:40 AM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important


Quote:

Originally posted by Bytemite:
Minos, btw. That's why it was called the Minotaur: cow of Minos.



Hello,

Kinky stuff, with the King's wife having a contraption built so the bull would mount her. Poor King. Who could compete with that, eh?

--Anthony



"On this matter, make no mistake. I want you to go fuck yourself long and hard, as well as anyone who agrees with you. I got no use for you." --Auraptor

"This vile and revolting malice - this is their true colors, always has been, you're just seeing it without the mask of justifications and excuses they hide it behind, is all. Make sure to remember it once they put the mask back on." --Fremdfirma

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Sunday, June 6, 2010 6:58 AM

DREAMTROVE


interesting stuff, byte. i did know that. so its a pantheon, and yhwh is some sort of mongrel god?

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Sunday, June 6, 2010 9:00 AM

BYTEMITE


Well, in the sense that gnosticism has multiple emannations, but they aren't what I would call gods in their own right, but part of a higher being, with lower levels emannating less power, being "further away" in a sense from the center of the power. It's somewhat Kabbalistic, if that gives you a better idea.

The Hebrew faith is polytheistic, but you won't ever hear much about God's female companion, Shekina. She's been mostly written out.

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Wednesday, June 9, 2010 5:55 PM

IREMISST


Quote:

Originally posted by traveler:
I would be a hypocrite to belong to a religion that I didn't fully share in its beliefs.

And since I have found none that share my personal beliefs I stand alone. God and I have our personal relationship. I don't need a religion to tell me what sort of god to worship and I don't push my beliefs on others.

I feel it is lazy to simply except what some religion tells you to believe instead of doing the search yourself.





Hey, Traveler, you and I are as dead on as it gets in this respect. I felt exactly the same way a few months ago, you ought to to look up "Ethical Culture" in wiki, I found it interesting. It seemed that they are more into the atheist range than I care to go, But I also got the idea that they are kinda "You can believe whatever you want to believe, so long as you actively TRY to be a good person" I actually cut out part of their creedo and taped it to my door- I found it so comforting- and I've NEVER had that with any religion...

Not trying to convert, just sayin' is all!

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