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Fascists believe that a nation is an organic community that requires strong leadership, singular collective identity, and the will and ability to commit violence and wage war in order to keep the nation strong.[15] They claim that culture is created by collective national society and its state, that cultural ideas are what give individuals identity, and thus rejects individualism.[15] In viewing the nation as an integrated collective community, they claim that pluralism is a dysfunctional aspect of society, and justify a totalitarian state as a means to represent the nation in its entirety.[16][17] They advocate the creation of a single-party state.[18] Fascist governments forbid and suppress openness and opposition to the fascist state and the fascist movement.[19] They identify violence and war as actions that create national regeneration, spirit and vitality.[20]

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I'm afraid that liberals just can't let go. No liberal can ever have been bad, and no one bad can ever have been a liberal. More than that, all bad people they have ever hated have to be conservatives, in the face of all reason and evidence

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In fact, the earliest recorded reference to abortion is by a Chinese Emperor in 2737 BC However, early Christianity was resolutely opposed to abortion, which was common in ancient Greece and Rome.

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So, again, the government has no right, no need, and no cause, in getting involved in social issues. Thats up to the society to judge, determine, and implement.

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This article may contain improper references to self-published sources.

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Nazism (Nationalsozialismus, National Socialism) was the ideology and practice of the Nazi Party and of Nazi Germany.[1][2][3][4][5][6][7][8]

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The Nazis sought to distinguish and separate themselves from conservative nationalist competitors such as the German National People's Party (DNVP) by officially denouncing conservatism, and attacking conservative nationalists

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Nazism promoted an economic “third position”; a managed economy that was neither capitalist nor communist.[19][20]

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The term Nazi derives from the first two syllables of Nationalsozialistische Deutsche Arbeiterpartei (National Socialist German Workers’ Party, NSDAP).[21] Members of the Nazi Party identified themselves as Nationalsozialisten (National Socialists), rarely as Nazis. The German term Nazi parallels the analogous political term Sozi, an abbreviation for a member of the Sozialdemokratische Partei Deutschlands (Social Democratic Party of Germany).[22][23] In 1933, when Adolf Hitler assumed power of the German government, usage of the term Nazi diminished in Germany, although Austrian anti-Nazis used it as an insult.[23]

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Nazis claimed that Bismarck was unable to complete German national unification due to Jewish infiltration of the German parliament

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Usually supported by the far right (military, business, Church), fascism is historically anti-communist, anti-conservative and anti-parliamentary.

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Originally posted by dreamtrove:
Preserving this for posterity. That was a pretty warped view of the right. My point earlier was that no one in the real world agrees with this position. I suspect the rewriting of history is happening on this board right now.

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Oh, and Magon, just in case you missed it, there was absolutely nothing right wing in the argument you just put forth.

If the right is racist, then why were the major civil right achievements historically made by the right?

If the right is warlike, why have almost all wars been initiated by the left, and the bloodiest ones overwhelmingly left-on-left?

If the right is so nationalistic, then why is it always left wing governments who nationalize everything?

If the police state is a right wing concept, then how come libertarian individualism is a right concept, almost all police states have been set up by left wing parties and the police seem to always align themselves with the left wing party?

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I think your projecting on to the right a lot of boogeymen rather than looking at us as people who have real beliefs, values, and an idea of the best way to run a government, which I believe is minimalist, not fascist.

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I believe we had this conversation a lot ealier, and on this side of the aisle we conceded pinochet as a right wing dictator, but really it's not a common phenomenon at all. I think almost always it's a structure that has the word socialist actually in the name.

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What boggles my mind is that after a couple hundred million deaths were still debating whether or not socialism is a good form of government, it seems to me that if it kills everyone, then no, it's not.

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Originally posted by dreamtrove:
I believe this is inaccurate

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The term Nazi derives from the first two syllables of Nationalsozialistische Deutsche Arbeiterpartei (National Socialist German Workers’ Party, NSDAP).[21] Members of the Nazi Party identified themselves as Nationalsozialisten (National Socialists), rarely as Nazis. The German term Nazi parallels the analogous political term Sozi, an abbreviation for a member of the Sozialdemokratische Partei Deutschlands (Social Democratic Party of Germany).[22][23] In 1933, when Adolf Hitler assumed power of the German government, usage of the term Nazi diminished in Germany, although Austrian anti-Nazis used it as an insult.[23]

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While commonly acceptedits not actually true. The word Nazi is yiddish slang, derogatory, and possibly, ironically, derivative of Ashkenazi, as the Ashkenazim were of the lower "ghetto" class, at any rate, it appears in print as a derogatory term meaning asshole or parasite decease before the formation of the NSDAP, and first appears in reference to the national socialists by a Sephardic reporter escaping germany, and letter by another Sephardic writer before being used, IIRC, There are no instances of members of the NSDAP referring to themselves as "Nazis."

I'm only mentioning this because, wikipedia is not infallible.

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Originally posted by dreamtrove:

That said, sorry for the rant guys. I wanted to clarify a point on Junkers. Junkers were not a political party, they were much more like the tea party, and not hat dissimilar ideologically. 56% of Germans allied themselves with the junkers, and around 40% with the Nazis. When the propaganda campaign first started in the 20s, anti semitism was virtually non-existent, polling around 2%. after successfully blaming the Jews for wwi, the German defeat in wwi, the economic crisis and the international hostility towards Germany, it hit a peak of around 50%. with roughly 80% of those voting Nazi, anyone can crunch the numbers and see that yes, there must have been some anti Semitic Junkers, but also, that it must have been a slim minority.

As for junker businesses supporting the NSDAP, junker businesses were confiscated, so it really doesn't imply anything.

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Originally posted by AgentRouka:

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Originally posted by dreamtrove:
I believe this is inaccurate

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The term Nazi derives from the first two syllables of Nationalsozialistische Deutsche Arbeiterpartei (National Socialist German Workers’ Party, NSDAP).[21] Members of the Nazi Party identified themselves as Nationalsozialisten (National Socialists), rarely as Nazis. The German term Nazi parallels the analogous political term Sozi, an abbreviation for a member of the Sozialdemokratische Partei Deutschlands (Social Democratic Party of Germany).[22][23] In 1933, when Adolf Hitler assumed power of the German government, usage of the term Nazi diminished in Germany, although Austrian anti-Nazis used it as an insult.[23]

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While commonly acceptedits not actually true. The word Nazi is yiddish slang, derogatory, and possibly, ironically, derivative of Ashkenazi, as the Ashkenazim were of the lower "ghetto" class, at any rate, it appears in print as a derogatory term meaning asshole or parasite decease before the formation of the NSDAP, and first appears in reference to the national socialists by a Sephardic reporter escaping germany, and letter by another Sephardic writer before being used, IIRC, There are no instances of members of the NSDAP referring to themselves as "Nazis."

I'm only mentioning this because, wikipedia is not infallible.

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Where does it appear in print before the formation of the Nazi party? What is your source for this claim?

Because I think the Nazi/Sozi connection is pretty solid and in keeping with the political culture of the time. Plus, non-Jewish Germans used the term widely and I doubt it was because they were all versant in yiddish slang.

I can buy that both words existed independently of each other, but the fact that Germans had a habit of shortening Sozialisten to Sozi and applied the same habit to Nationalsozialisten as Nazis is too obvious to just dismiss.

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Originally posted by dreamtrove:
Frem,

I really agree, I was trying to deflect the accusation that Nazis were a right wing party. This underscores a common left wing assertion that the right would create Nazi Germany if put in power. I suspect any of or NWO political groups would create Nazi Germany if given enough power, and they wouldn't care what kind of ideology they had to espouse to get such power.

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Mike:
Hitler ran on the left, but didn't govern from the left.

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Me:
He certainly didn't run from the right. I don't think fascism and dictatorship actually have a side. But no, i never called the fuhrer a democrat.

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Originally posted by dreamtrove:
Oh, citizen, welcome back, good to see you.

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Originally posted by dreamtrove:

Citizen, sorry, I should have clarified, Americans misuse the word liberal, as we do football, and in the sense that liberal means austrian economics and libertarian policies, the Nazis were not it. I do historical research for the head of your own British head of history, so I can tell you from that dept, that there is virtually no one, none that I've met, who thinks that the Nazis were right wing, this is a liberal fantasy with no basis in fact.

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Originally posted by dreamtrove:

Again, the left is free to disown the Nazis, they are not free to push them off on the right, which is a preposterous idea.

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Originally posted by dreamtrove:

If you go back to the right wing that precedes modern conservatives, meaning the monarchists, then your not talking about the same group of people at all: today's Tories are the former Whigs, the ones who opposed the tories of the 18th c. Most americans don't get this. Tory is a nickname, it comes from the Celtic toreigh, for rebel, which first surfaced I believe it was the Irish who resisted british rule.

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Originally posted by dreamtrove:
As I said, this was not liberal of them, but it wasn't conservative either.

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Originally posted by dreamtrove:
The reality is that the racists are everywhere, and I think that was the point, so saying random tea par tiers are racist, and hence the tea party movement is a racist movement is fallacious, like saying all fruits are bananas.

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Originally posted by dreamtrove:
But I generally avoid such arguments because they're pointless. I am only forced to make the "Nazis were left-wing" argument to refute the rather absurd claim that Nazis were right-wing

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Originally posted by dreamtrove:
If the right is racist, then why were the major civil right achievements historically made by the right?

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Originally posted by dreamtrove:

If the right is warlike, why have almost all wars been initiated by the left, and the bloodiest ones overwhelmingly left-on-left?

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Originally posted by dreamtrove:
If the right is so nationalistic, then why is it always left wing governments who nationalize everything?

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Originally posted by dreamtrove:
Your people elected David Cameron, good choice, I wish we had a candidate like that to vote for here.
...
I see Cameron has already gotten rid of the national ID card program (a racist police state policy of warmonger Tony Blair, no?)

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Conservative backing for ID cards
The Tories are to back controversial government plans to introduce ID cards.
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Sources within the Conservative Party told the BBC Michael Howard has always been in favour of ID cards, and tried to introduce them when he was Home Secretary.

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The Tory party of the 18th century was the same party as the Tories of today. There was another group also called Tories who were monarchists. The Whig Party formed the beginnings of the Liberal party.

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Originally posted by dreamtrove:
Link me? I felt fairly sure of my history on this id lie to sort it out.

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The Conservative Party is descended from the old Tory Party, founded in 1678, and is still often referred to as the Tory Party and its politicians, members, and supporters as "Tories."

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The origins of the Conservative Party lie way back in the seventeenth century. During
the civil wars of the 1640s and 1650s, and again in the last two decades of the century,
politicians formed parties in Parliament, first Royalists and Parliamentarians, then (in
more permanent form) Tories and Whigs – the former in broad (but not uncritical)
support of the monarch, the latter dedicated to curtailing his power.
The Tories had their first taste of success during the so-called Exclusion Crisis of
1679-80 when they defeated Whig attempts to exclude the Catholic brother of Charles
II from the line of succession to the throne. The Tories came to be seen above all as the
patriotic party, identified closely with the last Protestant Stuart monarch, Queen Anne,
during the period of Marlborough’s glorious victories over Louis XIV in the first
decade of the eighteenth century. Patriotism is the first, and most deeply rooted,
element of the Party’s character.

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Originally posted by dreamtrove:

The tories resoundingly won the election, the whole map was blue, but I agree that the lib dems had a strong influence. Of course labour had more or less rigged it to the point where they needed only 33% and the Tories needed 40% in orr to win.

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Originally posted by dreamtrove:
Still, Cameron is not Howard, all Tories are not of a mind and they never would have gone for a libdem style policy if there weren't a fair number of Tories who supported the position.

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I actually do work for your head of history

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They didn't win the election, no one won the election, it was a hung parliament, no one gained the majority in the house of commons required to form a Government.

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If they had done, they wouldn't have needed to enter into a coalition with the Liberal Democrats.

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The Conservative Party traces its origins to a faction, rooted in the 18th century Whig Party, that coalesced around William Pitt the Younger (Prime Minister of Great Britain 1783-1801 and 1804–1806). Originally known as "Independent Whigs", "Friends of Mr Pitt", or "Pittites", after Pitt's death the term "Tory" came into use. This was an allusion to the Tories, a political grouping that had existed from 1678, but which had no organisational continuity with the Pittite party. From about 1812 on the name "Tory" was commonly used for the newer party.

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Originally posted by dreamtrove:
Citizen, from your own link:
...

I thought so, IIRC, the name Tory was in neither case initiated by the party, but rather that parties opposition, as a reference to the Irish rebels in both cases. Not that I care who the tories are descended from, as long as its not the nazis ;)

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Originally posted by dreamtrove:
Of course the split ended up favoring Tories, but labour had sort of dismissed the possibility of a lib dem tory coalition, as they had taken the libdems for granted themselves.

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Originally posted by dreamtrove:
Anyway, the map was all one colour, that being blue, made me happen, all those country wankers give Labour the old heavy ho, I felt a sense of bumpkin solidarity, sticking it to the city slickers.

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Originally posted by dreamtrove:
Gave me a laugh too when Brown was trying to hustle up the nationalist and socialist votes into an all but Tory coalition, and refusing to step down until the queen gave him a ring and told him to sod off.

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Originally posted by dreamtrove:

Oh, the guy I work for is king since retired from any official position, but he still has influence, it was in case someone wanted to contribute to curriculum suggestions, but only limited to the financial angle of WWI, I wasn't looking to get in trouble because someone was angry on an internet forum. I don't represent him, I'm just doing research for him, if you care to throw something in, go ahead, if not, then don't.

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Originally posted by Bytemite:
HOORAY! Did you all have a big celebration?

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Originally posted by Bytemite:
So when I heard "Torie/LibDem coalition," my thought was, haha, the republicans and democrats have to work together on shit now. They're going to chew each others' heads off.

Guess not?

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Originally posted by dreamtrove:


Small quibble: think of it not at "more left" and "more right" but rather as "left plus jackboots" and "right plus jackboots." As mike was pointing out in the first post here, the Nazis ran on a left platform, but not far left, there were people to the left of them, like the communists, so it doesn't make them extreme in their leftness.

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