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REAL WORLD EVENT DISCUSSIONS
It's worse than we know
Tuesday, June 1, 2010 11:45 AM
AURAPTOR
America loves a winner!
Quote: It's not just some of us here who believe it, these guys (and far more) do, too. Answer your question?
Tuesday, June 1, 2010 2:18 PM
CATPIRATE
Tuesday, June 1, 2010 2:59 PM
KWICKO
"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)
Quote:Originally posted by Niki2: Time is money. Time to drill a relief well, for example, is time lost from pumping unless they hire and train a completely separate group of workers--which workers they could "better" use in drilling another well for profit.
Quote: Time is money in that they'd have to stop drilling or delay drilling in order to implement numerous safety devices which would have avoided this. Time lost to replace/repair the things that were wrong which "broke" or otherwise didn't stop the disaster was time lost pumping profits.
Quote: What you're not grasping is that they THINK in those terms; they think in bottom line: profits. What might result from their actions doesn't come into it, along with probably the laziness mentioned above and their own sense of infallibility, you know "It can't happen here".
Quote: There are already reports that they were told something would protect the well and dismissed it as taking too long.
Tuesday, June 1, 2010 3:16 PM
NIKI2
Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...
Friday, June 11, 2010 1:48 PM
Quote: BP oil spill estimates double US government figures show twice as much oil spewing into the Gulf of Mexico than earlier estimations suggested. The oil spill off the Gulf of Mexico is even worse than previously thought, with twice as much oil spewing into the ocean than earlier estimations suggested, figures show. Latest estimates from scientists studying the disaster for the US government suggest 160-380 million litres (42-100 million US gallons) of oil have already entered the Gulf. Most experts believe there is more oil gushing into the sea in an hour than officials originally said was spilling in an entire day. It is the third – and perhaps not the last – time the Obama administration has had to increase its estimate of how much oil is gushing.
Friday, June 11, 2010 1:53 PM
Friday, June 11, 2010 1:56 PM
Friday, June 11, 2010 2:00 PM
Friday, June 11, 2010 2:21 PM
Quote:Originally posted by Kwicko: Well, it's a good thing for you that you've never been right, then... Mike
Friday, June 11, 2010 2:38 PM
Friday, June 11, 2010 3:06 PM
Friday, June 11, 2010 3:15 PM
Friday, June 11, 2010 3:23 PM
Friday, June 11, 2010 3:24 PM
Friday, June 11, 2010 3:36 PM
Quote: The bad guy is BP; colluded with by Cheney, and to a lesser extent Bush.
Friday, June 11, 2010 3:49 PM
Friday, June 11, 2010 4:01 PM
Quote: But my comment wasn't flippant in the least. If I can, I'll dig up (tomorrow!) facts about the Cheney Administration (because I believe it was) and their attitude/actions toward Big Oil, tho' I know it won't convince you. I'm not lumping illogical hatred, I'm extrapolating from what I've dug up, read, heard and more on the issue.
Saturday, June 12, 2010 8:19 AM
Quote:“The oil well spewing crude into the Gulf of Mexico didn’t have a remote-control shut-off switch used in two other major oil-producing nations as last-resort protection against underwater spills.The lack of the device, called an acoustic switch, could amplify concerns over the environmental impact of offshore drilling after the explosion and sinking of the Deepwater Horizon rig last week….. regulators in two major oil-producing countries, Norway and Brazil, in effect require them. Norway has had acoustic triggers on almost every offshore rig since 1993. The U.S. considered requiring a remote-controlled shut-off mechanism several years ago, but drilling companies questioned its cost and effectiveness, according to the agency overseeing offshore drilling. The agency, the Interior Department’s Minerals Management Service, says it decided the remote device wasn’t needed because rigs had other back-up plans to cut off a well.”
Quote:Evidence is mounting up that the oil spill in the Gulf is the result of a tragic sequence of equipment failures – but ultimately, all of them should have and could have been caught, had the rig been regulated properly. It turns out that tens of thousands of offshore rigs are barely regulated, a result of Dick Cheney’s private energy meetings and interference with the Department of Minerals Management Services, which regulates the off shore drilling. The MMS is also responsible for collecting the billions in royalties from the oil companies and is the same agency that was investigated and found to be doing cocaine and having sex with oil executives. Their judgment regarding the necessity of regulations was clearly not impartial. A remote shut off valve for off-shore rigs is a regulatory requirement in Norway and Brazil, two major oil producing countries, and several other large oil companies find this valve so important that they use the acoustic switch at the cost of $500,000 a pop even though it is not mandated. Cheney’s Energy Task Force determined that the shut off valves were a burden on the industry.
Quote:The Energy Policy Act of 2005 has come to be known as the “Dick Cheney energy bill,” but there’s one provision that is so closely identified with the former vice president that it has become known as the “Cheney loophole.” The provision in question, Section 322, exempted hydraulic fracturing, a drilling process commonly known as “fracking,” from the Safe Drinking Water Act. Serious environmental concerns about the process have been raised following numerous cases of groundwater contamination after nearby drilling. The exemption has placed the burden to rein in drillers largely on state regulators that are often unable or simply unwilling to police the thousands of wells that have been drilled in recent years. Cheney offered permanent regulatory relief and rolled back existing environmental laws to help the oil industry. This particular example also demonstrates the administration’s willingness to distort science to benefit Big Oil and others. The one exception to the Cheney loophole was a ban on injecting diesel fuel into wells. Yet a recent House Energy and Commerce Committee investigation revealed that the drilling companies violated this single restriction with impunity during the Bush-Cheney years. And oil and gas interests have launched a public relations and lobbying campaign to prevent Congress from closing the Cheney loophole or imposing other regulations. There have been two serious accidents involving onshore natural gas wells in the past week alone. A Pennsylvania well had a blowout and one in West Virginia exploded. One of the 2005 Energy Policy Act provisions that is most directly related to the BP oil catastrophe is Section 390, which dramatically expanded the circumstances under which new drilling permits could be approved without further environmental reviews or assessments under the National Environmental Policy Act. Many appear to have been approved based almost completely on responses to yes or no questions on pro forma checklists. The GAO report found that the BLM approved nearly 6,100 permits from 2006 to 2008 using the new exemptions carved out by Cheney and his congressional allies. Field offices in Wyoming approved 2,462 such permits. In fact, the Pinedale, Wyoming BLM office alone granted an extraordinary 1,498 permits using Section 390 exclusions. This is more drilling permits than there were residents of the town in 2000—1412. Ground level ozone levels, largely related to the drilling boom in the area, measured in the tiny central Wyoming town have at times exceeded those of downtown Los Angeles. Secretary of the Interior Ken Salazar luckily announced onshore drilling reforms in January 2010 designed to end the abuse of Cheney exclusions on public lands.
Quote:From oil lobbyists buying million-dollar homes with DOI officials to a high level administrator being sentenced to prison time, the agency that is tasked with protecting America’s natural resources was wrought with flagrant ethical failures during the Bush administration. Here’s the background on the biggest scandals and the key figures in the DOI under the Bush administration • 1983-1989: J. Steven Griles lobbying for energy lobbying firm National Environmental Strategies, Inc. • January 2001: Gale Norton is sworn in as Department of the InteriorSecretary, J. Steven Grilels appointed as Deputy Secretary. • September 2003: Jack Abramoff offers a job to Griles. Emails reveal Griles was seriously considering leaving DOI at the time. • February 2004: DOI’s Sue Ellen Wooldridge writes letter to Inspector General in support of Griles without disclosing her romantic relationship with her superior. • January 2005: Griles joins lobbying firm run by ex-Cheney energy adviser. • September 2006: Interior Department inspector general Earl Davaney issues scathing report uncovering “widespread ethical failures” and Griles a “train wreck waiting to happen.” Allegations included “financial self-dealing, accepting gifts from energy companies, cocaine use and sexual misconduct.” • February 2007: Griles revealed to have purchased $1m home with former DOI insubordinate Sue Ellen Wooldridge and a ConocoPhillips lobbyist. Months after the purchase, Wooldridge issued an agreement delaying $500m in ConocoPhillips pollution cleanups. • March 2007: Griles admits to lying about his ties to Jack Abramoff and his girlfriend who acted as the go-between, DOI aide Italia Federici • June 2007: Griles sentenced to 10 months prison time “Simply stated, short of a crime, anything goes at the highest levels of the Department of the Interior” Earl Davaney, Interior Department Inspector General, 9/14/06
Quote:At the outset, I want to note that all of the conduct chronicled in this report occurred prior to 2007. Of greatest concern to me is the environment in which these inspectors operate - particularly the ease with which they move between industry and government. While not included in our report, we discovered that the individuals involved in the fraternizing and gift exchange - both government and industry - have often known one another since childhood Their relationships were formed well before they took their jobs with industry or government. MMS relies on the ability to hire employees with industry experience..
Quote:Within 10 days of the Jan. 20, 2001 inauguration of George W. Bush as President, Vice President Dick Cheney was made head of the newly created National Energy Development Taskforce. In May, 2001, Cheney's official energy policy was released. A timeline of Cheney's culpability for energy crimes, was assembled in September, 2003. Cheney Task Force, January-May, 2001. On Jan. 28, 2001, on national TV, Cheney presented his view of energy policy: don't touch the looting going on. His exact words, "I'm a believer in markets...I think the notion of deregulation is basically sound.” "Energy NAFTA"/Global Oil Control. On May 16, 2001, Cheney presented his final, 170-page report, "Affordable and Environmentally Sound Energy for America's Future." The report called for more deregulation across the board, and for international control over priority oil resource regions.
Saturday, June 12, 2010 1:56 PM
Saturday, June 12, 2010 3:25 PM
SIGNYM
I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.
Quote:Just watched the most sobering t.v. I hope to ever watch. Bigger than 9/11.... on the Gulf oil disaster. I can't mince words here folks....it's bad. Beyond what we've been told. Even if the " top kill " attempt works, the damage is far beyond what they're telling us. But the top kill won't work. It'll be August before a 2nd well can be drilled, to finally shut this nightmare down. And that's what it is.... an actual, real life nightmare. Get to the coast and white beaches of the Gulf now, while you can. It'll be the last time in our life time we'll see them like this.
Sunday, June 13, 2010 2:14 AM
Monday, June 14, 2010 6:09 AM
Monday, June 14, 2010 8:27 AM
Monday, June 14, 2010 9:23 AM
Quote:Originally posted by SignyM: Niki- You're right. Rappy always winds up with "blame Obama", as if BP's cost cutting had nothing to do with the disaster. And I'm SURE that Rappy will respond with .... BP is innocent until proven guilty. Just like Bush. But the same courtesy will not be extended to Obama, because he's a Dem. Rappy, it is a disaster. We all feel it. There is PLENTY of blame to go around, but that blame starts with BP, which has the next quarterly statement as its main goalpost, and crossed fingers as its disaster-planning.
Quote: Where the Federal government deserves blame is for not diligently regulating BP to save it- and all of us- from BP's own worst excesses. The governments in the gulf states are thoroughly saturated with oil money, and that starts at county/ parish level and goes all the way up through the governorships, state legislatures, Congressmen, local employees of Federal agencies, up to and including Ken Salazar (who has always had a soft spot for offshore drilling). No matter how much they huff and puff, there will not be a single step towards tighter regulation or re-review of disaster preparedness plans which comes from that region. Nearly anything that any of the local/ state politicians say... whether Repub or Dem... is sheer showboating and blamestorming.
Monday, June 14, 2010 10:55 AM
Quote: BP took measures to cut costs in the weeks before the catastrophic blowout in the Gulf of Mexico as it dealt with one problem after another, prompting a BP engineer to describe the doomed rig as a "nightmare well," according to internal documents released Monday. The comment by BP engineer Brian Morel came in an e-mail April 14, six days before the Deepwater Horizon rig explosion that killed 11 people and has sent tens of millions of gallons of oil into the Gulf in the nation's worst environmental disaster. The e-mail was among dozens of internal documents released by the House Energy and Commerce Committee, which is investigating the explosion and its aftermath. In a letter to BP CEO Tony Hayward, Reps. Henry Waxman, D-Calif., and Bart Stupak, D-Mich., noted at least five questionable decisions BP made in the days leading up to the explosion... "Time after time, it appears that BP made decisions that increased the risk of a blowout to save the company time or expense," the lawmakers wrote in the 14-page letter to Hayward. "If this is what happened, BP's carelessness and complacency have inflicted a heavy toll on the Gulf, its inhabitants, and the workers on the rig." ... The letter by Waxman and Stupak focuses on details such as the design of the well, saying that the company apparently chose a riskier option among two possibilities to provide a barrier to the flow of gas in space surrounding steel tubes in the well. Despite warnings from its own engineers "BP chose the more risky casing option, apparently because the liner option would have cost $7 to $10 million more and taken longer," Waxman and Stupak said. In the brief e-mail, Morel said the company is likely to make last-minute changes in the well. "We could be running it in 2-3 days, so need a relative quick response. Sorry for the late notice, this has been nightmare well which has everyone all over the place," Morel wrote. BP apparently rejected advice of a subcontractor, Halliburton Inc., in preparing for a cementing job to close up the well. BP rejected Halliburton's recommendation to use 21 "centralizers" to make sure the casing ran down the center of the well bore. Instead, BP used six centralizers. In an e-mail on April 16, a BP official involved in the decision explained: "It will take 10 hours to install them. I do not like this." Later that day, another official recognized the risks of proceeding with insufficient centralizers but commented: "who cares, it's done, end of story, will probably be fine." A spokesman for BP could not immediately reached for comment.
Monday, June 14, 2010 11:47 AM
Quote:The final safety switch for a blowout preventer that has lost communication with its oil rig is the "deadman" system that's supposed to trigger the blowout preventer to shut the well. It did not activate during the Transocean April 20th rig explosion. Another study West Engineering Services prepared for the Minerals Management System in 2003 found flaw with the deadman system. "The most serious drawback to this system ...is the mind set of the rig personnel. Many operator and contractor personnel refuse to arm the system from fear that it will either not operate when needed or activate inappropriately, causing downtime. Such downtime can be extremely costly. If the blowout preventer cuts through drilling pipe it can easily cost $10-million to replace that section of pipe and put the rig back into production. Drilling operations not subject to the administration's six-month deepwater drilling moratorium have until the end of the month to: -- Provide independent third party verification of the safety and effectiveness of blowout preventers; -- Install a secondary control system for subsea blowout preventers (current regulations do not require such a backup); -- And, adhere to new inspection and reporting requirements for blowout preventers.
Quote:At issue are regulations that were implemented during the last decade by the Interior Department and its royalty-overseeing agency, the Minerals Management Service, regarding the use of back-up systems such as blowout prevention devices. BP, which leased the Deepwater Horizon rig in the Gulf of Mexico, has been unable to activate a blowout preventer and stop an estimated 5,000 barrels of oil flowing from three leaks in a crumpled pipe about a mile underwater. Minerals Management Service did not force rigs to have audio control devices that would allow them to remotely activate a wellhead's blowout preventer in case of a problem. Other major countries that permit offshore drilling require rigs to carry such devices. Sen. Bill Nelson asked for a review of the development of regulations on blowout preventers and other well controls, as well as the role industry lobbying may have played in shaping the rules. "I ask that you determine in your investigation the extent to which the oil and natural gas industry exercised influence in the agency's rulemaking process," Nelson wrote.
Quote: Alleged regulatory shortfalls are now under investigation by the House Energy and Commerce Committee and the Committee on Natural Resources, which will focus both on the adequacy of BP's risk assessment as well as regulators' role, or culpability, in the disaster. Official documents show that pushback from the oil industry resulted in easing of requirements for new technologies to prevent the kind of blowout that led to the Deepwater Horizon rig. Pushback from BP and others against installing a new kind of acoustic blowout preventer succeeded. The Minerals Management Service declined to make them mandatory, as other oil-producing nations have. Moreover, a safety document from the Minerals Management Service 10 years ago raised the alarm about the potential for catastrophic spills, which could be alleviated by requiring backup and secondary blowout preventers for deepwater drilling. But the MMS didn't require any such system, leaving it to oil companies to decide what was best.
Monday, June 14, 2010 11:57 AM
Quote: And BTW, only conservation and green energy will save us from being hostage to the middle east, and prevent more oil disasters from occurring by eliminating the need for oil. THAT is the kind of long-term thinking that real leaders need to do to steer the nation in the right direction... and don't expect long-term good-for-the-nation thinking from the oil companies or from Walmart (which hasn't seen a job it can't outsource) or any other big business. HOWEVER, IMHO cap-and-trade is a complete friggin' boodnoggle, and Obama can shove it up his ass.
Monday, June 14, 2010 12:05 PM
Quote: CLINTON CATALYZED GULF OIL DRILLING BOOM In 1995, President Clinton signed the Outer Continental Shelf Deepwater Royalty Relief Act which exempted oil wells drilled deep in the Gulf from the normal royalty payments they would normally have owed the government for their oil. Usually, these payments amount to between 12% and 16% of their revenues, so exemption from this requirement did a great deal to catalyze drilling in deep waters in the Gulf of Mexico. As a result of the Administration action, deepwater oil production in the Gulf increased rapidly, growing from 42 million barrels annually in 1996 to 348 million in 2004. The latter figure represents about 6% of total United States oil consumption and about 15% of domestic production. Natural gas production from deepwater Gulf drilling increased tenfold during the same period.
Monday, June 14, 2010 12:16 PM
Monday, June 14, 2010 12:18 PM
Monday, June 14, 2010 12:19 PM
Monday, June 14, 2010 12:23 PM
Monday, June 14, 2010 12:30 PM
Monday, June 14, 2010 12:45 PM
Quote:Originally posted by Niki2: Too easy... Yeah, and deregulation was loosened up so much when Clinton was in office that afterwards we had this huge, gigantic gusher from all those wells in the Gulf that weren't kept up to snuff...oh, wait, no, that was after BUSH left office. Ooops, my bad.
Quote: If you really think energy other than coal and gas is a pipe dream, you're gonna have an awfully hard time in the coming years. Anyone tell you OIL IS FINITE?? Probably not...
Monday, June 14, 2010 12:46 PM
Monday, June 14, 2010 12:52 PM
Quote:Originally posted by SignyM: Yeah Rappy but... we can't wait another 65 million years for the next batch to appear.
Quote: I think yah've inhaled too many oil fumes, boy!
Monday, June 14, 2010 1:25 PM
Quote:Originally posted by AURaptor: Quote:Originally posted by Kwicko: Well, it's a good thing for you that you've never been right, then... Mike So, when I started this thread ( over 2 weeks ago ) and stated quite clearly that it IS worse than we know, and then we find out just how exactly I was right ( again ) , this is your childish attempt at a reply? Again, you're nothing but a sad simpleton, posting contrarian nonsense, simply to be a troll.
Monday, June 14, 2010 1:29 PM
Quote:Originally posted by AURaptor: niki it's incomprehensible to me how anyone can take lightly this situation. When "some " chose to focus only on trolling and snarky replies, w/ out any hint of conscious awareness to the tragedy that's going on.... it infuriates me. even if you THINK you know me, and my views on the environment, this should be one thing which we all agree. - The focus should be, no MUST be, to Stop the flow of oil - NOW Keep the oil that's in the water from reaching more of the shore, and clean up what we can, as fast as we can. THAT should be the primary goals for the Gov't, for BP, first and foremost. I'm fucking sick and tired of threats of litigation, boots on the necks of BP, Jones Act waivers, Haliburton concrete, Bush, Obama..... All those arguments can and will be had, in due time. But what we need from the LEADERS is action. Not talk Action. NOW
Monday, June 14, 2010 1:32 PM
Monday, June 14, 2010 1:48 PM
Quote:Originally posted by AURaptor: kwickie - Thanks for showing everyone how petty and small minded a fool you truly are. I'm talking major ecological disaster here, and you're whining about campaign slogans from 2 years ago. Trust in your messiah. Obama will talk his way out of this one. He's got a Nobel prize, after all. Of course, he'll first have to play a few more rounds of golf, go on another vacation w/ the girls, fly somewhere to raise more $$ for a lame duck candidate, and listen to a few more Grammy winning artists put on a few more concerts at the White House before he can be bothered again w/ the Gulf oil crisis. But rest assured.....he's got this.
Monday, June 14, 2010 2:17 PM
Quote:You really think that no oil has been produced since the dinosaurs died ? Really? wow.
Monday, June 14, 2010 11:54 PM
Tuesday, June 15, 2010 12:45 AM
KANEMAN
Quote:Originally posted by Niki2: Oh, Pizmo, you're a doll too. What a dream it could be... And I had no idea it was that little! I still don't think it can happen, I don't think enough people here would/could chip in. But I'm not averse to keeping it going for a bit to find out. That's $50 from Pizmo, a guaranteed $12.5 from Anthony. Let's see where it goes. I won't know until July 1 how much I could pitch in, maybe $50-75 probably, I'm pretty far behind. But I'd do it, fer shore. And I have no DOUBT it'll still be going on then! As to video, I could take lots of pictures (time permitting), but all I have is a little Olympus point-and-shoot, which does take videos and I would, they just won't be terribly good. If it were made possible, I'd do anything anyone wanted, as long as I could spend most of my time working. Hey, I can dream! And to hell with the WulfWind, he'd diss it or find some conspiracy or something to bitch about...it'd be for the rest of you, 'cuz you'd have made it possible! "I'm just right. Kinda like the sun rising in the east and the world being round...its not a need its just the way it is." The Delusional "Hero", 3/1/10
Tuesday, June 15, 2010 3:50 AM
Quote:Sig. I can't show you how oil is made ? Probably right. How can you teach someone something they don't want to learn ?
Tuesday, June 15, 2010 3:55 AM
Tuesday, June 15, 2010 4:05 AM
Quote:But we have heat and pressure and processes that are occurring miles beneath the surface, and your glib response is " theory " ?The same processes which made oil in the past have never stopped. Ask any geologist.
Tuesday, June 15, 2010 4:09 AM
Tuesday, June 15, 2010 4:13 AM
Quote: President Barack Obama tried to deliver an upbeat message Monday in Theodore. He emphasized cooperation and coordination among all levels of government, stressed that Gulf seafood is safe to eat and said the Gulf Coast will eventually be "in better shape than it was before."
Tuesday, June 15, 2010 4:14 AM
Quote:So, you don't see it, thus it doesn't exist?
Tuesday, June 15, 2010 4:16 AM
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