Iraq Me Dave Petraeus by dreamtrove

REAL WORLD EVENT DISCUSSIONS

Iraq Me Dave Petraeus

POSTED BY: DREAMTROVE
UPDATED: Thursday, June 24, 2010 14:07
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Wednesday, June 23, 2010 11:15 AM

DREAMTROVE

https://www.weeklystandard.com/blogs/why-not-petraeus-crocker-afghanis
tan

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Wednesday, June 23, 2010 11:46 AM

BYTEMITE

Isn't this something Frem has recommended? It sounds really familiar.

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Wednesday, June 23, 2010 12:16 PM

HKCAVALIER

Isn't this exactly what they are doing?

HKCavalier

Hey, hey, hey, don't be mean. We don't have to be mean, because, remember, no matter where you go, there you are.

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Wednesday, June 23, 2010 12:40 PM

DREAMTROVE

Yes, the point is that kristol said it before ti was done.

Translation, Obama might be taking tips from neocons.

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Wednesday, June 23, 2010 12:41 PM

PIRATENEWS

John Lee, conspiracy therapist at Hollywood award-winner History Channel-mocked SNL-spoofed PirateNew.org wooHOO!!!!!!

MickyC out, Betrayus in.

1. Heroin production up 1500%

2. 100,000 US troops dead

3. 1-million US troops disabled

4. 2.6-million Iraqis & Afghanis dead

5. USA BK

Mission Accompliced!

Bonus: MickyC's $100,000/yr pension

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Wednesday, June 23, 2010 1:18 PM

HKCAVALIER

Quote:
Originally posted by dreamtrove:
Yes, the point is that kristol said it before ti was done.

Translation, Obama might be taking tips from neocons.

Dream, of course, you could be right, but I can't help but feel that your conspiracy mind-set leaves you prone to false-positives. Time and again, from what I've seen, Obama gets backed into a corner and his only options are neo-con friendly options. If the neo-cons had only been in Dubya's cabinet, the end of his presidency would have been the end of them, but they run D.C. now. Pentagon, CIA, half the House and Senate--to say nothing of Wall Street, the oil industry, you name it--all neo-con or neo-con symp. What the heck's he supposed to do--pull Powell out of retirement?

But Dream, speaking of conspiracy, what do you think McChrystal's idea was here? I'm stumpt. The guy's a general, a chess player, a little hard to imagine he didn't see this coming (although, I won't rule it out). Certainly screws Obama any way he takes this. And, it's clear there's no love lost between 'em.

But this is really embarrassing for McChrystal as well. And generally, where there is major embarrassment for the perpetrator, I tend to discount intent--guys like that don't go for public humiliation. What gives?

HKCavalier

Hey, hey, hey, don't be mean. We don't have to be mean, because, remember, no matter where you go, there you are.

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Wednesday, June 23, 2010 1:23 PM

BYTEMITE

Being told to fall on his sword is possible.

Or drugs, because Rolling Stone is not and has never been friendly about the two Wars and the generals running them. Maybe he was drugged when he agreed to this.

It is hard to believe he'd make a decision like this on his own.

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Wednesday, June 23, 2010 1:29 PM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important

Hello,

It seems likely to me that the exiting General will take his experience and connections and history with Black Ops over to one of the shiny private contractors doing work in the mideast.

--Anthony

Due to the use of Naomi 3.3.2 Beta web filtering, the following people may need to private-message me if they wish to contact me: Auraptor, Kaneman, Piratenews, Wulfenstar. I apologize for the inconvenience.

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Wednesday, June 23, 2010 1:49 PM

DREAMTROVE

HK

They are the same team. Kristol is not outside the Obama network, he's distinctly inside.

As for conspiracy on mcchrystals very public withdrawal, yes, if he hasn't gone insane it was staged. He wants out. He's gone as far as you can go in the military, and he can now go out as a four star general. That's a great credential for a job on the dark side, maybe he wants to play with Erik Prince. Or be him. Perhaps the only thing standing in his way was that he was the leader of our troops in Afghanistan. This guy is Mr. JSOC, I don't tank he's going away anytime soon.

ETA: I see Anthony firsted me, well, I agree with Anthony.

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Wednesday, June 23, 2010 4:53 PM

FREMDFIRMA

Gee, how'd you GUESS?

Blackwater is already planning the welcome ceremony, that right from their site security, heh.

Petty is an idiot, but as long as he's got Gates to hold his hand, at least he can pretend to be effective - we're kinda thin on generals who have some fucking clue what the real world is, these days.

-F

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Wednesday, June 23, 2010 5:35 PM

DREAMTROVE

I know I do okay, i get the psych, and okay, its obvious to you, my own security resume is rather limited, ditto for the rest of the whole underbelly of the beast, but I'm learning.

I actually used the logic I posted there. Just curious about one little detail: he seems to have made the remark a year and a day or so after he got the promotion to fair star general, the highest rank, so is there a technical reason for that timing? I know all sorts of laws show up. It could be rank or pension related, looks kite he had been waiting a while to exit.

I'm guessing Prince didn't want to be in the hot seat anymore, figured he would assume a low station and then phone it in as an off payroll advisor. Mission from God don't quit just cause the kitchen gets warm, it just slides to the side.

Oh, and some of the stuff JSOC does is pretty fucked up. I know folks like blackwater, when they hire mcchrystal, they won't just be buying him, but his boys. And that's some kind of underworld empire they'd be fashioning to build.

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Wednesday, June 23, 2010 7:13 PM

FREMDFIRMA

Well, see, one thing that grinds me about the NeoCons is a certain lack of originality, they've been cribbin Scoops playbook for twenty friggin years, you'd think they'd try somethin else for once, ok ?

So this is less comprehension than the fact that I actually got to READ Scoop Jacksons stuff before they seized and classified it, neh ?

Worse, they recycle the plots, look at how Rumsfeld tried to recycle his 1976 "Swine Flu" scare-gig, and like always that shit never works quite as well the second time around - especially when you do it while victims of the previous scam are still alive and remember it.

This is a recycle of The Business Plot, and with McChrystal in the deck it completes everything save for a new catastrophe to justify the coup, as the BP spill is currently insufficient, although undeniably effective hand in hand with a compliant media in demonising the CinC - and McCrhystal is no Smedley Butler, he's all on board with this, plus he wanted out anyway, he knows that's a powder keg waiting to go off, in part cause of his own incompetence stirrin the kettle with terror tactics.

And yes, that's a two-fer-one cause they get his black ops wreckin crew with him, sure.

One factor they failed to account for, so far as I know of, is Joe Biden - again, never, ever take that man for stupid, he's DAMNED good at what he does, and right now his primary job seems to be acting as the armor plate keeping these guys knives out of Obamas back - they'll never see him comin cause he's every bit as good at blindsiding folk as anyone I've ever known, politically or professionally.

-Frem

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Thursday, June 24, 2010 3:32 AM

DREAMTROVE

Scoop jackson and max schactman, leo Strauss, the old crowd. The problem with these brain trust loops is they pass things to one another until you don't know whose ideas are whose, and then they keep doing it until it short circuits, and then they keep doing it like an automaton, unaware of their own failure.

Anyway, I'm sure you can still find all that stuff online, and yes, this move is called corporatized it so they can't vote you out or nail your ass with some due process, and if as all possible, internationalize it so it don't get caught up in the legal hassle.

Not sure they need an incident. Obama, alas, appears to be part of the problem. He handed the power of JSOC to state at the beginning of his first term. Now the new Blackwater-JSOC will have e authority of semi-legit authority and the protection of a corporation and basically be accountable to no one. In 2008 Bush extended Jsocs access to essentially anything within the US military's arsenal and any personnel they ask for. After that they don't really need orders in order to act, they just need the plausibility of authority in a situation of recognized conflict. They probably won't even need the tacit okay itself.

I see us much more sleepwalking into the new world order than being overthrown, and these guys will be the immune system of the beast.

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Thursday, June 24, 2010 6:04 AM

KPO

Sometimes you own the libs. Sometimes, the libs own you.

One analysis:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/us_and_canada/10400347.stm

Quote:
A stronger, more self-confident president would have given Gen McChrystal a public roasting, then told him in as many words to get on with the job and keep his mouth shut in future

Got to say I find myself agreeing with this...

Heads should roll

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Thursday, June 24, 2010 6:12 AM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)

Quote:
Originally posted by AnthonyT:
Hello,

It seems likely to me that the exiting General will take his experience and connections and history with Black Ops over to one of the shiny private contractors doing work in the mideast.

--Anthony

Due to the use of Naomi 3.3.2 Beta web filtering, the following people may need to private-message me if they wish to contact me: Auraptor, Kaneman, Piratenews, Wulfenstar. I apologize for the inconvenience.

Or to the Tea Party, where he's even now being called "McMartyr"... Given that Obama never had McChrystal's support, it wouldn't be surprising to see him make a run at office. That whole Pat Tillman murder cover-up might not sit well with some, though.

"I think playing golf during a war just sends the wrong signal."

On this matter, make no mistake. I want you to go fuck yourself long and hard, as well as anyone who agrees with you. I got no use for you. --Auraptor

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Thursday, June 24, 2010 6:15 AM

KWICKO

Quote:
Originally posted by Bytemite:
Being told to fall on his sword is possible.

Not buying that. The right's biggest beef with Obama (this week, anyway) is his "lack of leadership". You can't have someone who can't lead ordering a "natural leader of men" like McChrystal to fall on his sword. It doesn't logically follow; couldn't happen.

Quote:

Or drugs, because Rolling Stone is not and has never been friendly about the two Wars and the generals running them. Maybe he was drugged when he agreed to this.

Reporter was imbedded with McC's unit for a month. That's a helluva long drug trip!

Quote:

It is hard to believe he'd make a decision like this on his own.

No, it's just hard to imagine he'd do so without weighing the consequences. He wanted out, without getting blamed for losing the war, or he wanted to be fired so he could run for office or make a run at some serious Blackwater-style money.

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Thursday, June 24, 2010 6:20 AM

KWICKO

Quote:
Originally posted by kpo:
One analysis:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/us_and_canada/10400347.stm

Quote:
A stronger, more self-confident president would have given Gen McChrystal a public roasting, then told him in as many words to get on with the job and keep his mouth shut in future

Got to say I find myself agreeing with this...

Heads should roll

Yeah. That's how I had it figured yesterday.

Better to have McC inside the tent pissing out, than outside pissing in.

Guess Obama didn't pay enough attention to history... Or to LBJ.

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Thursday, June 24, 2010 6:36 AM

BYTEMITE

Quote:
Not buying that. The right's biggest beef with Obama (this week, anyway) is his "lack of leadership". You can't have someone who can't lead ordering a "natural leader of men" like McChrystal to fall on his sword. It doesn't logically follow; couldn't happen.

Huh? Neither one is a "natural leader of men." The magazine article suggests pretty strongly that except for a few aides, most of McChrystal's men are frustrated with him, don't like him, and think he's a fool.

And even if neither one is a natural leader of men, McChrystal can be told to fall on his sword because their respective HANDLERS can make this decision for them, and most likely did. If McChrystal is not as crazed and "patriotic" as the usual American intelligence and military higher up and can't be convinced that falling on his sword would be what's best for the country, he can be threatened with litigation. But I suspect he is.

And I have no idea why you think I would have the slightest bit of concern or interest in what the right is calling Obama this week.

Quote:
No, it's just hard to imagine he'd do so without weighing the consequences. He wanted out, without getting blamed for losing the war, or he wanted to be fired so he could run for office or make a run at some serious Blackwater-style money.

Hmmm, he wanted out? I think we have as much proof for that as we do for my "shadow puppet" explanation. Frankly, I doubt guys like McChrystal can think for themselves, it's been trained out of them. But I have no proof for that either, and really, the two explanations are equally possible.

But you're right that he probably will end up with Blackwater or some other sleazy US military/intelligence organized security contractor.

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Thursday, June 24, 2010 7:39 AM

KWICKO

Quote:
Originally posted by Bytemite:
Quote:
Not buying that. The right's biggest beef with Obama (this week, anyway) is his "lack of leadership". You can't have someone who can't lead ordering a "natural leader of men" like McChrystal to fall on his sword. It doesn't logically follow; couldn't happen.

Huh? Neither one is a "natural leader of men." The magazine article suggests pretty strongly that except for a few aides, most of McChrystal's men are frustrated with him, don't like him, and think he's a fool.

Byte, if I came off as overly snarky and less than diplomatic, trust me - it wasn't aimed at you! It was in broad response to something you posted that I disagree with, but the snark about "whatever the right is calling him this week" was aimed at those who say he can't lead, can't give orders, etc. If that much is true, then surely Obama couldn't inspire McC to fall on his sword, right?

I think it turned into a pissing contest. McC felt like he was "fire-proof" - could say whatever he wanted, and Obama wouldn't or couldn't do anything about it, because there was no one else good enough to do his job (this is the way high-ranking military officers ARE trained to think), so he couldn't be removed from his position. And, as DT mentioned, he was pretty much "tenured" in that position; short of a court-martial stripping him of rank and privilege, he wasn't going to go out without a golden parachute (which he is now assured of having).

And Obama was put in a position of either having to let this yahoo run his mouth off (which engenders insubordination all down the ranks), or of putting him in his place, which McC obviously didn't think Obama had the stones to do. He seems to have been wrong on that count.

So we are left wondering WHY he did what he did. Did he WANT out, or was he FORCED out for the sin of committing truth to power? Either way, it looks like he'll land on his feet. He'll run for office (not very likely, per the Tillman cover-up, among other losing propositions), or he'll end up a tinpot warlord, either legally (Blackwater/Xe/Executive Outcomes/etc.) or illegally (through the Karzai heroin syndicate, who always need good security personnel, and can pay quite well, especially since we're funding them with hundreds of millions of OUR taxpayer dollars!

Quote:

And even if neither one is a natural leader of men, McChrystal can be told to fall on his sword because their respective HANDLERS can make this decision for them, and most likely did. If McChrystal is not as crazed and "patriotic" as the usual American intelligence and military higher up and can't be convinced that falling on his sword would be what's best for the country, he can be threatened with litigation. But I suspect he is.

I would suspect that both of them have some qualities that would indeed qualify them as leaders. McC was a four-star general, so has inspired at least SOME confidence from his men (or they'd have complained and scuttled his rise to power before now); Obama managed to get well more than 50% of the nation's voters to follow him, so he's better at "leading" than either McCain or Bush, who never got that many votes.

Quote:

And I have no idea why you think I would have the slightest bit of concern or interest in what the right is calling Obama this week.

Again, sorry about that. That was snark aimed well to the right of you. You got hit by friendly fire. My bad. I was in a hurry and on the fly, so typed faster than I thought! :)

Quote:

Quote:
No, it's just hard to imagine he'd do so without weighing the consequences. He wanted out, without getting blamed for losing the war, or he wanted to be fired so he could run for office or make a run at some serious Blackwater-style money.

Hmmm, he wanted out? I think we have as much proof for that as we do for my "shadow puppet" explanation. Frankly, I doubt guys like McChrystal can think for themselves, it's been trained out of them. But I have no proof for that either, and really, the two explanations are equally possible.

Yes, all conjecture on both our parts. I think the coming weeks will tell the story, as we'll either see McC clam up and not say a disparaging word, or we'll see him lambaste the President and the Administration for their ineffectiveness. I think his actions and words in the upcoming weeks (and the upcoming election season) will tell the tale of who's pulling his strings, if anyone truly is.

Quote:

But you're right that he probably will end up with Blackwater or some other sleazy US military/intelligence organized security contractor.

I take no credit or joy in that. If I'm right, I'd rather not be, and if I'm right, Anthony, DT, and Frem were well ahead of me on that score.

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Thursday, June 24, 2010 7:42 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...

I've been wondering why in hell he would do this too. Any idiot is savvy enough that talking to a reporter WITH A TAPE RECORDER RUNNING means "watch it". So thank you for giving me a decent explanation--which makes perfect sense to me--so I can get a grasp of "why in hell...?" I think his going into private service makes perfect sense, and he wouldn't be the first, by far. Doesn't matter that his career in the military is ended by this, which, if he wanted to go on serving, would be the case.

I don't see him running for office. This stains him too much, even those who hate Obama wouldn't respect someone mouthing off like this, because a large part of those who hate Obama are PRO-military.

I, too, would have liked to see Obama not bow to common wisdom, tell him off and send him back. He knew he couldn't tho'; seen as a weak leader, this would only be grabbed ahold of to make him look even weaker.

There's another thing to take into account. The military doesn't have "free speech" like the rest of us, and what McChrystal did is exactly the definition of what would bring a court martial down on him. If he didn't dump him, who knows if the military might not have taken action? We can't know, of course, and generals are usually protected from such things, but either way Obama avoided the question by firing him.

Either way, I'm sad to see Obama saying that it's just a "change in personnel, not in objective"...I'd like to have seen him use the excuse to have Peterus review the situation and get us out.

All in all, it's just a shame. There's no question that the same feelings are shared by men on the ground; this just verifies their feelings, whoever is in power, so it's bad for morale in several ways. Such is life...

Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
signing off

To our President: “Mr. President, you're a god damn, mother fucking liar. Fuck you, you cock sucking community activist piece of shit.... oh, go fuck yourself, Mr. President” ...Raptor

To Anthony, unquestionably the most civil person on this forum: “Go fuck yourself. On this matter, make no mistake. I want you to go fuck yourself long and hard, as well as anyone who agrees with you. I got no use for you. ...Raptor

To Frem: “You miserable piece of shit.” ...Raptor

To Niki: “My guess is it won't just be your ugly face you dislike.....Well, it's true......if you had a soul.” ...Raptor

To Kwicko:" You're the putrid slime which oozes between troll's toes, you're so low.” ...Raptor

...Remember, remember, the ugliest member...

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Thursday, June 24, 2010 8:17 AM

DREAMTROVE

Byte,

I'm sure mcchrystal can think for himself. I also know he knows that loose lips sink ships, I suspect its one of the first things you learn. So he didn't "slip up." I think mike's right here, we were just talking about that.

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Thursday, June 24, 2010 9:07 AM

FREMDFIRMA

No, that was Wesley Clark the pampered princess, who couldn't think for himself, MacDaddy can, he just generally doesn't, and likely he's BEEN takin orders from Erik under the table for a while now, there's quite a few units like that around, supposedly in the chain of command, but really takin orders from Blackwater...

All of em marked, command chains and weaknesses flagged, TO&E listed complete with full status reports and updated on a regular basis - you really think we've not BEEN watchin that for a while ?

Their recent attempt to intimidate and infiltrate a couple smaller domestic branches of Sikorsky Helicopter so they'd have an in-house source of attack choppers wound up my ire in particular, since the director of security for one of em is a personal friend and one of my best minions who I've known since he was a little bratling - he's seriously pissed off at em.

Had a DAMN funny moment though, he went out there and locked a designator on the little Kiowa they were flyin back and forth over his office and they about shit a brick thinkin he had a stinger pointed at em - apparently the FAA had a little talk with em about harrassing civvies with repeated flyovers shortly after that, from what he told me.

Anyhows, yeah, Blackwater is up to more than just rolling in the dosh, and I seriously don't care for them having their own supply of armor or air power whatsoever.

-Frem

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Thursday, June 24, 2010 12:07 PM

HKCAVALIER

Quote:
Originally posted by kpo:
Quote:
A stronger, more self-confident president would have given Gen McChrystal a public roasting, then told him in as many words to get on with the job and keep his mouth shut in future

Got to say I find myself agreeing with this...

We're all still trading in mere appearances with this. The truth is, Obama is not in a strong position. All the self-confidence in the world isn't gonna help you if you're truly screwed. McChrystal clearly meant to screw Obama and screw him good.

Obama cannot afford to have the general of his army showing zero, and I mean ZERO, respect for him--it absolutely destroys morale. Bitching behind closed doors and in private is one thing, but bitching in front of a megaphone for all the world to hear? At what point would even a "stronger" President can his ass?

Why not have the creep court martialed? Have him get up in front of all his men and apologize for being a class "A" douchebag? Obama's already given him a "good roasting" twice. Didn't take.

THERE IS A REALITY HERE, folks. Bush & co. denied everything, had all the self-confidence of ten Obamas and that went to hell! BP had a metric shitload of self-confidence before the spill as well. Unrealistic self-confidence is the ground zero of this problem.

Christ, when are we gonna stop playing politics like we're squaring off on the playground in grade school? Or the roulette table in Vegas? Sounds like ya all want Cpt. Kirk for Pres. But we already had that guy and he got impeached for screwing an intern.

HKCavalier

Hey, hey, hey, don't be mean. We don't have to be mean, because, remember, no matter where you go, there you are.

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Thursday, June 24, 2010 1:32 PM

KPO

Sometimes you own the libs. Sometimes, the libs own you.

HK I don't disagree on any particular point.

And yes, we're trading in appearances only atm. The appearances are not good, but it's clear McChrystal is something of a jerk (though a talented and popular one) and we can be confident in his replacement.

Heads should roll

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Thursday, June 24, 2010 2:07 PM

KWICKO

There's also some stories breaking lately about how McC was one of the guys who was supposedly "on our side", but was bribing the Afghan warlords and the Taliban with money - usually laundered via contractors like Blackwater and DynCorp - in essence, paying them NOT to attack us. Which, of course, then the money went straight into the hands of arms dealers, so they could buy better weapons with which to... anyone? Anyone? Bueller?

Yes. They used it to attack us, of course.

And we're talking about HUNDREDS OF MILLIONS of our taxpayer dollars being used to prop up the Taliban.

Oh. And we're also using taxpayer dollars to fund abortions in Afghanistan. Hope you righties are cool with that. This isn't a new develpment that Obama came up with; we have been doing it from the first day we launched airstrikes there. After all, what else would you call it when we kill pregnant women with our airstrikes, drones, and attacks? We're funding abortions! Are you all cool with this? 'Cause if you are, then there are many cheaper, more effective ways to do it, and most of them involve the woman surviving, which our latest methods really don't seem to do.

'Course, it could be that you're fine with Afghan women having abortions, but that would go against that whole "pro-life" thing and show you up as hypocrites, wouldn't it?

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