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Originally posted by Fremdfirma:

his biggest crime is breaking consent of the governed, because up till them that was what government power came from, not the barrel of a gun, and he changed that

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Originally posted by Bytemite:
Perhaps, unlike the others, the reason Lincoln doesn't disturb you is because maybe he did think he was doing good. He thought that saving the union was the most important thing at the time.

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Couple huge cultural shifts in this country at the time: the genocide of the indigenous peoples--who exemplified kingless governance to shocked Europeans for generations, exemplified American independence to the Founders, inspired the preamble to the Constitution (we "the people") and were an integral, defining part of the post-colonial life. And the other huge influence on the American scene was the huge influx of European immigrants that flooded our borders in the second half of the 19th century--people who knew nothing of the native American way of life, people who understood power as a pyramid and had no taste for anything else. These two factors in combination had much to do, I believe, with the destruction of the original American spirit.

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Originally posted by AgentRouka:
Asking with the neutral curiosity of an agnostically raised person: Jesus?

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Originally posted by kaneman:
Abraham Jefferson Lincoln, a.k.a. The Sexy Ocelot, born at the Lincoln Memorial Hospital (1809-2008) to a Black-Jewish-Italian-Native American man, and an eight foot tall she-bear, was an outspoken slavery advocate, world renowned plumber, masseuse, triangle player, racist stand-up comedian, and pimp who became President of the United States after a voting mishap. In the early years of his career, he was famous for his offensive jokes about Blacks that he put in his speeches promoting slavery. Often considered the Michael Richards of the 1800’s, Lincoln’s acts typically included jokes about slavery, Africa, your mom, and Kentuckistan Fried Chicken. However, as racism slowly started to become unacceptable in society, he moved on to insulting women in his act. Historians such as Sain of Lycia said this was a smart move on Lincoln’s part because “making fun of women will never age”. Eventually, Lincoln become president through a bizarre, freakish voting discrepancy involving Oprah, a Slaxe, and rabid squirrels. During the beginning of the American Civil War, Lincoln was granted Emergency Powers by the first mentally disabled member of the Senate in order to quickly quell the rebellion. Near the end of the war, the Senate had nearly no power, and many people began to worry about the US becoming an Empire. Lincoln tore up a petition called the Petition of Senators Against Emergency Powers Used to Gain More Power. This prompted John Wilkes Boothy, a senator, to assassinate Lincoln at Fords Theater, ending his reign as dictatorial leader. Abe Lincoln was also a renowned samurai and zombie slayer.

Being one of America’s most good-looking Presidents[4], Lincoln is therefore accepted as one of America’s greatest Presidents. A great strategist, Lincoln reportedly made sure that tall lecterns were installed on the stage wherever he debated an opponent, thereby ensuring that the audience couldn’t actually see his opponent (let alone hear him).

The not-so-funny people at wikipedia have a different opinion on this...Humor enc.

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Jesus preached in Galilee and Judea (modern-day Israel) for one to three years in the first half of the first century.

Following the fall of earlier Jewish kingdoms, the partially-Hellenized territory was under Roman imperial rule, but there were ongoing hopes of a revival of independent sovereignty. The Roman Prefect’s first duty to Rome was to maintain order, but although the land was mostly peaceful (notably between 7 and 26[30]), there were continued risks of rebellion, riots, banditry, and violent resistance (see also Zealotry). Four decades after Jesus’ death, the tensions caused by Jewish hopes for a restoration of the kingdom of David culminated in the first Jewish-Roman War and the destruction of the Temple in Jerusalem.[citation needed]

In the Judaic religion of Jesus' day, the Pharisees were a powerful party, espousing (like the first Christians) belief in the resurrection of the dead, retribution in the next world, angels, human freedom, and Divine Providence.[31] The more conservative Sadducees held power in the Temple. The Essenes lived ascetically and looked for an imminent apocalypse. According to scholars such as Geza Vermes and E.P. Sanders, Jesus does not seem to have belonged to any particular party or movement.

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The gospels and Christian tradition depict Jesus as being executed at the insistence of Jewish leaders, who considered his claims to divinity to be blasphemous, see also Responsibility for the death of Jesus. Historically, Jesus seems instead to have been executed as a potential source of unrest.

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Jesus began preaching, teaching, and healing after he was baptized by John the Baptist, an apocalyptic ascetic preacher who called on Jews to repent.

Jesus was apparently a follower of John, a populist and activist prophet who looked forward to divine deliverance of the Jewish homeland from the Romans.[85] John was a major religious figure, whose movement was probably larger than Jesus' own.[86] Herod Antipas had John executed as a threat to his power.[86] In a saying thought to have been originally recorded in Q,[87] the historical Jesus defended John shortly after John's death.

John's followers formed a movement that continued after his death alongside Jesus' own following.[86] John's followers apparently believed that John might have risen from the dead,[89][dubious – discuss] an expectation that may have influenced the expectations of Jesus' followers after his own execution.[86] Some of Jesus' followers were former followers of John the Baptist.[86] Fasting and baptism, elements of John's preaching, may have entered early Christian practice as John's followers joined the movement.[86]

John Dominic Crossan portrays Jesus as rejecting John's apocalyptic eschatology in favor of a sapiential eschatology, in which cultural transformation results from humans' own actions, rather than from God's intervention.

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All four Gospels agree that Jesus was crucified at the requested of the Jewish Sanhedrin by Pontius Pilate. Crucifixion was the penalty for criminals, robbers, traitors, and political insurrection, used as a symbol of Rome's absolute authority - those who stood against Rome were utterly annihilated.

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The sage of the ancient Near East was a self-effacing man of few words who did not provoke encounters.[102] A holy man offers cures and exorcisms only when petitioned, and even then may be reluctant.[102] Jesus seems to have displayed a similar style.[102]

The Gospels present Jesus engaging in frequent "question and answer" religious debates with Pharisees and Sadducees. The Jesus Seminar believes the debates about scripture and doctrine are rabbinic in style and not characteristic of Jesus.[103] They believe these "conflict stories" represent the conflicts between the early Christian community and those around them: the Pharisees, Sadducees, etc. The group believes these sometimes include genuine sayings or concepts but are largely the product of the early Christian community.

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Originally posted by dreamtrove:
HK

It should be blatantly obvious.

I'm serious. Most evil dictators don't require lots of digging. First off:

1. He killed a million people.

Okay, rather than start with "He's good!" from there, you should automatically put him in evil and then have to work towards good.

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If you are skeptical enough, then every argument presented to try to persuade you should be attacked by a counter argument that you go and dig up from one of the opponents, which I think is a pretty standard thing people do to try to form objective opinions.

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Argument for Lincoln: But, he had to, 'cause, you know, slavery?

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Argument against Lincoln: No, slavery was not an issue. He had an emancipation plan on the table that he already knew would be far cheaper than the war: Buy out all the outstanding contracts on slaves, then declare emancipation.

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2. He attacked america, a land he was sworn to defend. Burned a decent portion of it to the ground.

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Argument for Lincoln: But, he had to, 'cause, you know, slavery?

Yes, well, we heard that one.

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3. He arranged to marginalize the southern vote to prevent southern democrats from getting control of congress.

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4. Conscription.

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5. The income tax.

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6. Handing everyone's captured assets to his friends (Why didn't Bush do this? Just invade america, capture the land and companies you want and hand them to your friends!)

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7. Tossing out Habeas Corpus et al.

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You see how the excuse gets old real fast?

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John Quincy Adams was an abolitionist too, he just wasn't willing to kill a million people to get what he wanted.

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Most economists predicted slavery would fall apart around 1880 or so, which it did, but it certainly didn't end because of the civil war. Slavery came right back after the war. Of course, it's still with us, but it's nowhere near as strong as it used to be. See, there's a snag with slaves: they make such terrible consumers, because they just don't buy anything. An industrial economy doesn't have a lot of use for such a population.

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First of all, Lincoln did not kill a million people.

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I wouldn't say Truman was evil

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planning and carrying out the Final Solution

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I'm still trying to suss out why they seceded in the first place.

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This is a stupid joke of a strawman. You're not even trying.

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Lincoln was principally concerned with maintaining the Union. Though he was obviously opposed to slavery on principle, he was not an abolitionist.

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Um...what, then, does "secession" mean?

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Is there a solution to the problem of secession other than just letting the South split off? Is it just and appropriate that the South seceded merely because an opposing faction gains power in the government? People speak of secession today and I think it betrays a shocking lack of respect for democracy. How is the South's secession in 1861 different? (I know, it doesn't justify going to war--I don't approve of the war between the states, anymore than I approve of the bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki--but I'm interested in your opinion on the matter anyway.)

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As I said, the South seceded before he even took office. And I'm not up on the specifics of the gerrymandering you're talking about, but isn't that still in the purview of Congress, not the Chief Executive?

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Yeah, much better to pay for a war by borrowing from China. It sucks that the income tax was not repealed after the war, but dayum, I don't call a man evil for being honest about the cost.

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Demonizing one's subject sure doesn't inspire confidence in one's findings.

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Originally posted by Jongsstraw:
Easy to see why the nanny-state Left loathes Lincoln. Just read his own words:


"You cannot help the poor by
destroying the rich.

You cannot strengthen the weak
by weakening the strong.

You cannot bring about prosperity
by discouraging thrift.

You cannot lift the wage earner up
by pulling the wage payer down.

You cannot further the brotherhood of man
by inciting class hatred.

You cannot build character and courage
by taking away people's initiative and independence.

You cannot help people permanently
by doing for them,
what they could and should do for themselves."


Abraham Lincoln

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Originally posted by dreamtrove:
The simple solution to the war it seems was to get rid of Lincoln and Lee. Maybe they could have done that sooner with a couple of revolvers. Generally I think that fighting continues because foreign interests have an interest in fighting.

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Images and Vidoes

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