...and the rest of us get poorer. by Niki2

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg

YOU ARE QUOTING FROM THE MADDOW SHOW AGAIN!! OMG

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/26315908/#38439269

EXACT QUOTES>>> EVEN THEIR SAME GRAPHS!!

Do you think for yourself Nix? at all?

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Wednesday, July 28, 2010 9:36 AM

EVILDINOSAUR

ok, so she's quoting...is the information false?

"Haha, mine is an evil laugh."

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Wednesday, July 28, 2010 9:42 AM

KANEMAN

Quote:
Originally posted by Wulfenstar:
YOU ARE QUOTING FROM THE MADDOW SHOW AGAIN!! OMG

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/26315908/#38439269

EXACT QUOTES>>> EVEN THEIR SAME GRAPHS!!

Do you think for yourself Nix? at all?

She thinks maddow is a journalist....LOL

Hey at least you know where she is coming from.

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Wednesday, July 28, 2010 9:48 AM

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg

Shes not even quoting, shes plagerizing chapter and verse, and claiming it as her own.

Ok, this is too perfect and fits so well.

Nix, do you have any thoughts on this matter that are your own?

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Wednesday, July 28, 2010 10:41 AM

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...

Jeezus...read my response in the other post where you accused me of plagerizing!

Again, I looked for this on my own. I did find it amusing that I located the same graph as Maddow--but you might consider that I can't "copy" something like a graph from Maddow, as the show is on video and the graph is a .gif.

I was actually trying to find a graph like that to show the discrepancy and had no luck at first because I used "chart" in my google term. I found that one by sheer luck. And unfortunately I can't give you the url, because it's only a graph, not text, so I can't backtrack. The only way I could find it again would be to go thrugh my entire "history" and, given how many websites I check every day, I'm not willing to put the time into it. Suffice it to say I couldn't have "plagerized" it because it's a .gif.

I'm sure if I looked around I could find another example...in fact I may, except that I've already been on here so long I'm not sure it's worth te effort...especially as it would be just for YOU, and at the minute I'm really pissed off at you for dissing the material I huted around for as "plagerizing" Maddow.

Okay, took a bit, but I got lucky using "us income growth inequality graph". So here's another:

http://www.sustainablemiddleclass.com/Income-inequality.html

I'm not sure what this one will look like, as it's not clear on the page:

It's called the "L Curve".
The explanation is "The US population is represented along the length of the football field, arranged in order of income. Median US family income (the family at the 50 yard line) is $40,000 (a stack of $100 bills 1.6 inches high.)

--The family on the 95 yard line earns about $100,000 per year, a stack of $100 bills about 4 inches high.

--At the 99 yard line the income is about $300,000, a stack of $100 bills about a foot high.

--The curve reaches $1 million (a 40 inch high stack of $100 bills) one foot from the goal line.

--From there it keeps going up...it goes up 50 km (~30 miles) on this scale!"

Found the same graph as the original here:
http://andrewsullivan.theatlantic.com/.a/6a00d83451c45669e20134859705d
3970c-550wi
http://modeledbehavior.com/2010/07/22/income-inequality-a-deeper-look/

Here's one with numbers from that same L-Curve site, if that's easier:
http://lcurve.org/WealthDistribution-1998.htm

Hopefully one or another of these will be "unslanted" enough for you. If not, tough shit, I'm not spending any more time on it. Check 'em out, they all say pretty much the same thing.

And finally, as EvilDinosaur said: You don't like I got it from Maddow...does that make the facts not accurate?

Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off

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Wednesday, July 28, 2010 10:42 AM

HKCAVALIER

Quote:
Originally posted by Wulfenstar:
Shes not even quoting, shes plagerizing chapter and verse, and claiming it as her own.

Nix, do you have any thoughts on this matter that are your own?

Okay, I know this is ill advised of me but--oh well. What Niki is quoting here, is the news, the data, the information. Quoting news is just that, quoting news. It doesn't really count as plagiarism. Niki posts the news in the quotation part and gives you her "color" commentary in the blue text. It's really not that hard to grasp, is it?

I'm well aware that you want to make Niki look bad, but if you choose an idiotic means to that end, it just makes you look bad.

Carry on.

HKCavalier

Hey, hey, hey, don't be mean. We don't have to be mean, because, remember, no matter where you go, there you are.

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Wednesday, July 28, 2010 10:43 AM

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg

Apples... I have apples here...

Nix, do you like apples?

heh

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Wednesday, July 28, 2010 11:07 AM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)

Quote:
Originally posted by Wulfenstar:
Apples... I have apples here...

Nix, do you like apples?

heh

Hey, Wulfie?

You're fucking lying. How d'ya like them apples?

AURaptor's Greatest Hits:

Friday, May 28, 2010 - 20:32 To AnthonyT:
Go fuck yourself.
On this matter, make no mistake. I want you to go fuck yourself long and hard, as well as anyone who agrees with you. I got no use for you.

Friday, May 28, 2010 - 18:26 To President Obama:
Mr. President, you're a god damn, mother fucking liar.
Fuck you, you cock sucking community activist piece of shit.
... go fuck yourself, Mr. President.

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Wednesday, July 28, 2010 11:10 AM

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...

You lost me, WulfWind. You almost had a bit of my respect, but you lost it. I'm refunding your money; I don't want a PENNY from YOU!

Money refunded via PayPal. WulfWind is no longer among the contributors.

Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off

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Wednesday, July 28, 2010 11:30 AM

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...

Use the refund to go buy yourself another gun; that way, when your head starts hurting from trying to think (or do you ever?), you can shoot two-fisted, you

Damned shame you lost that bit of respect. You don't get any from anyone else here except your fellow

Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off

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Wednesday, July 28, 2010 11:54 AM

STORYMARK

Quote:
Originally posted by Wulfenstar:
Apples... I have apples here...

Nix, do you like apples?

heh

Yeah, you have apples, and that's about it. Nary an actual thought.

Such a sad, little man.

"I thoroughly disapprove of duels. If a man should challenge me, I would take him kindly and forgivingly by the hand and lead him to a quiet place and kill him."

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Wednesday, July 28, 2010 12:10 PM

DREAMTROVE

Niki

thanks. That graph condemns Clinton. If you extend that to today, it really really condemns Obama. Yes, it does some damage to reagan and bush jr. Bush Sr. and Carter look better here, but who looks really good are some really old presidents.

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Wednesday, July 28, 2010 12:44 PM

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...

Yup to that. Freewheeling spending has become the order of the day, I won't argue that. But I'll wait to condemn Obama until his term is up, thank you. Given what he's had to start with, and the fact I don't think McCain could have done better (or as well), I'll wait.

Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off

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Wednesday, July 28, 2010 12:52 PM

Blame is not helpful. I'd like to discuss how to fix it without letting the economy crash, but also without establishing any dangerously intrusive legal foundations or precedents.

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Wednesday, July 28, 2010 12:56 PM

The wealth disparity is a HUGE problem. That's what comes of a political system that can be so easily bought. The wealthy make the rules, which makes them wealthier, which lets them make more rules, etc.

On the hopeful side, I think this has been happening for a long time to varying degrees, but there's more access to information now and more awareness of the problem (except for Wulfie. We all know where his head resides.) And I believe the system underneath is sound. There's hope that, this time around, the imbalance can be righted without anyone having to pull out a guillotine.

These definitely are interesting times. I'm not sure where it'll end up, but I'm quite sure the system is changing. Putting factual information like this out there as much as possible is the best way to counter those whose beliefs are based on nothing but ignorance and hate. (You know who I'm looking at!)

Good job Niki.

-----------------------------------------------
hmm-burble-blah, blah-blah-blah, take a left

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Wednesday, July 28, 2010 1:02 PM

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...

You're welcome, Mal4, that means a lot coming from you. And I agree, tho' I'm more cynical and don't see things changing all that much, in what's left of my lifetime anyway.

Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off

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Wednesday, July 28, 2010 1:05 PM

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg

... and the circle is complete.

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Wednesday, July 28, 2010 1:16 PM

Quote:
There's hope that, this time around, the imbalance can be righted without anyone having to pull out a guillotine.

Oh goody. Then we can skip right to the Napoleon phase of things. /cynic

The French revolution is probably not exactly the analogy you want to call to mind, beyond the whole violence thing. It kind of didn't work so well the first time.

Why do Republics like to declare their big heroes Emperors so much? It's counterproductive, unless the idea of a Republic is a ruse. (I think it is)

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Wednesday, July 28, 2010 1:19 PM

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...

No, you pathetic little moron, YOU are the one who started the circular bullshit in both this thread and the other. You merely ended up showing yourself for who you really are. As usual. Blind and full of self-loathing which has to come out, so you direct it at others and avoid any actual debate. You get what you deserve.

Quote:
It’s striking how often authoritarian aggression happens in dark and cowardly ways, in the dark, by cowards who later will do everything they possibly can to avoid responsibility for what they did.

Uou're a coward, pure and simple. Rather than face facts and discuss them on their merits, you go after the person who put them in front of you, then duck responsibility when you're proven wrong. Truly pitiable.

Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off

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Wednesday, July 28, 2010 1:39 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Bytemite:
Quote:
There's hope that, this time around, the imbalance can be righted without anyone having to pull out a guillotine.

Oh goody. Then we can skip right to the Napoleon phase of things. /cynic

Well, actually that's kind of the reverse of my point. The French solution was to take out the entire upper class and start fresh with a new system. Nature abhors a vacuum - you take out those in power, and anyone can step in.

My hope is that the US's system, powered by those who try to make actual observations of what works and what doesn't (rather than what movie gives him a hero fantasy hard-on and which people he loves to hate) will work to change the system. *Without* scrapping it.

Change will come slower this way, but if we keep what's worked for us there's less chance of a new Napoleon stepping in.

Also, don't discount the power of the new internet. Without it--and I'm talking only a decade or so ago--we'd all know nothing about the shit happening today. Think about all the little bits of info we've gotten about the oil spill, the economy, the Iraq war, immigration, etc... When I was a kid there was nothing like this. There was 3 channels of broadcast news which gave very little detail. We'd all be feeling more chipper and happy if we didn't know all this shit, but we also wouldn't feel pressured to change it.

I think that's universal. So many more people are informed and active. Even with Wulf's big hate show, I bet little bits are getting into his head. Probably won't make much difference, since reality can't be heard over the din in there. But maybe someday he'll be on proper medication and the good seeds will take root.

(I think it'll be a while before I can post anything without digging at him a bit. He really blew it today.)

-----------------------------------------------
hmm-burble-blah, blah-blah-blah, take a left

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Wednesday, July 28, 2010 1:46 PM

PIZMOBEACH

... fully loaded, safety off...

I don't understand the attraction to stories about CEO mega millionaires, OTHER THAN that the MSM know it hits a chord with the average Jane and Joe and they love to read about it and get pissed... and next thing you know, cha-ching! readership gets a bump, more ads are served and Toyota sells another Camry. And Toyota's CEO gets a little richer. Even the irony gets richer.

Scifi movie music + Firefly dialogue clips, 24 hours a day - http://www.scifiradio.com

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Wednesday, July 28, 2010 1:48 PM

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...

Well, I don't think anything's getting into his head...one has to have two brain cells to rub together to "think", tho' there's plenty of open space in there...

I agree with what you said, I'd like to see gradual change as well. My concern is that opening campaign contributions up to corporations, etc., is only going to mean more people with their agenda in office. I wish it weren't so.

The problem is, not enough people USE the internet, find out the answers for themselves rather than swallowing the pablum of the MSM and (worst of all) FauxNews. We're still a TV generation, tho' with any luck at all, the next one will be more internet-based and better informed.

I guess I don't have enough faith in either human nature or the American people. I know it's got to stop sometime, somehow, but I don't see people CHOOSING to get more informed and make their own decisions...I wish I did. But the parrots like Wulf seem to be the majority...the mere fact that they swallow FauxNews and the Tea Party speaks ill of their willingness to use their own brains, to me.

I'll hold a good thought your vision comes to pass, but forgive me if I'm not disappointed if it doesn't.

Catch my last post on the "rich get rich" thread--it's an absolute gas in how it peggs our Wulf. It speaks to other high RWAs here too, but Wulf is SUCH a charicature, he embodies every point to the point of self-satire.

Unfortunately I see too many like him who are deliberately blind to the reality of what's happening around us to be very hopeful.

One thing reading that has me grudgingly admitting; the Republican party and Tea Party leaers really know their stuff, and have a perfect finger on how to manipulate their followers. One is almost tempted to congratulate them...almost...

Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off

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Wednesday, July 28, 2010 2:05 PM

Quote:
My hope is that the US's system, powered by those who try to make actual observations of what works and what doesn't (rather than what movie gives him a hero fantasy hard-on and which people he loves to hate) will work to change the system. *Without* scrapping it.

I suddenly have developed a debilitating case of world weariness. Well, maybe not so suddenly. Chronically?

Anyway. Don't read too much into my posts. We probably do want to try to fix things within the framework of the system. My unfortunate position is that I doubt we can. But I would very much like someone to prove me wrong.

It just... I don't know that I can commit to a course of action where we take someone out of power, then hand those exact same reigns to someone equally flawed, equally fallible, equally prone to corruption. There's a such thing as a power vacuum, as you say, but how do you limit the power that comes from filling it? Concentration of power rarely decays or distributes over time.

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Wednesday, July 28, 2010 2:08 PM

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...

I gree 100%. It's a real conundrum, but I see no way better than democracy, deeply flawed as it is. I KNOW revolution is no answer, it never has been, but I don't know what else to suggest.

Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off

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Wednesday, July 28, 2010 2:19 PM

Pizmo: for me, it's about the wrong solution being applied to a very big problem, with nothing but ever bigger failure to follow. Our economy is sick. A big part of the reason is how wealth is being concentrated by those is power. They talk the average idiot like Wulf into following their "trickledown" idea, which flat out does not work. A healthier economy will result from lots of people having a little more to spend, rather than a few people having a lot-lot-LOT more.

So, you may disagree, but my problem with wealth disparity has nothing to do with selling you a Honda. It's about trying to solve a problem.

Niki - yes, the corporate/campaign issue is damned scary. With all the big news of the past few years, I think that's really the worst one. Corporate ownership of our politicians is the reason why the economy crashed, health care sucks, the oil got spilt, and we're fighting two dead end wars. All these problems can be traced back to Corporate money running our elections.

Quote:
Originally posted by Niki2:
I guess I don't have enough faith in either human nature or the American people. I know it's got to stop sometime, somehow, but I don't see people CHOOSING to get more informed and make their own decisions...

Well, I figure people have certainly never been smarter than they are today, and yet we're still here, and we've even made progress. Think about how things were 100 years ago.

People *are* more informed. Sure, not everyone uses the internet and there's plenty of Wulf's out there, but those who want to be see through lies actually have a way now, more so than ever before. That means something.

Doesn't mean I'm sure of a good outcome. All I can figure is that, if we're really so stupid as to turn to people like GWB and Palin for leadership, and we continue to let corporate dollars tell us what to think, we deserve to fail. If we can't pull away from this BS, we need to get out of the way so a better system can take our place.

That actually makes me feel better. Oddly. If we fail, we deserve it, and someone else will do better.

Quote:
Catch my last post on the "rich get rich" thread--it's an absolute gas in how it peggs our Wulf. It speaks to other high RWAs here too, but Wulf is SUCH a charicature, he embodies every point to the point of self-satire.

Saw it, and plan on reading it, but it's a little long for me to handle right now.

It really is like the Wulfster got up this morning with the express goal of showing himself to be a vapid, irrational little boy. He and Rappy both will never understand how brilliantly they illustrate everything that is wrong with the conservative RWA mentality.

In fact, I probably wouldn't believe half the negative press I read about the Tea Party and right wing if it wasn't for these guys, and the RWED sock puppet brigade. I wouldn't have thought it possible that anyone was that... well, you know. But there they are. Live and almost in person.

-----------------------------------------------
hmm-burble-blah, blah-blah-blah, take a left

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Wednesday, July 28, 2010 2:21 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Bytemite:
It just... I don't know that I can commit to a course of action where we take someone out of power, then hand those exact same reigns to someone equally flawed, equally fallible, equally prone to corruption. There's a such thing as a power vacuum, as you say, but how do you limit the power that comes from filling it? Concentration of power rarely decays or distributes over time.

Anti-trust happened once. I can only keep hoping that it will again. If we can break up the monopolies and get the corporate dollar out of our elections, our system will be all shiny and new. But with a few hundred years of history and precedent to give it stability.

I'm not saying it'll happen. But it is possible. Depends on who we elect.

-----------------------------------------------
hmm-burble-blah, blah-blah-blah, take a left

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Wednesday, July 28, 2010 2:23 PM

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...

Quote:
In fact, I probably wouldn't believe half the negative press I read about the Tea Party and right wing if it wasn't for these guys, and the RWED sock puppet brigade. I wouldn't have thought it possible that anyone was that... well, you know. But there they are. Live and almost in person.

Boy, me too. I would have thought it was an urban myth or something if I didn't come here. I would have thought everyone could see through FauxNews, Coulter, Rushbaugh, and especially Beck...but like you said, here they are. Kinda scary there are people who think like that and literally CANNOT be gotten through to.

I still refuse to believe they make up the majority of the Tea Party, tho', that's just too unreal to believe!

The rest, I'll hold a good thought, okay?

Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off

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Wednesday, July 28, 2010 2:45 PM

KWICKO

Quote:
Originally posted by Bytemite:
Quote:
There's hope that, this time around, the imbalance can be righted without anyone having to pull out a guillotine.

Oh goody. Then we can skip right to the Napoleon phase of things. /cynic

The French revolution is probably not exactly the analogy you want to call to mind, beyond the whole violence thing. It kind of didn't work so well the first time.

Why do Republics like to declare their big heroes Emperors so much? It's counterproductive, unless the idea of a Republic is a ruse. (I think it is)

Actually, it might very well be the PERFECT analogy to bring to mind. After all, the French Revolution was pretty much a direct result of the American Revolution. The French supported American independence, and did so with lots and lots and lots of MONEY, so much so that it caused the king to up the taxes on his subjects and nearly bankrupted the country, leading directly to the French Revolution. Of course, lots and lots of Frenchmen looking at our own so-very-recent successful revolution helped fuel their ideas of emulating us, too. So they gave it a go, and added the guillotine into the mix.

And here we are, bankrupting our own country in the vain efforts to "spread democracy" to people who have no interest in it, or in us, or in being like us in any way at all, and the poor and middle class are bearing the brunt of the burden, while the rich look down their noses at us and say that we should be grateful to have any crumbs of cake they deign to throw our way... and the guillotine starts looking like a viable option once again.

And when you look around the country and find CEOs pilfering their companies' treasuries, and find city employees draining the coffers of their municipalities... can you really BLAME the people who start thinking the guillotine really has its place in this world?

AURaptor's Greatest Hits:

Friday, May 28, 2010 - 20:32 To AnthonyT:
Go fuck yourself.
On this matter, make no mistake. I want you to go fuck yourself long and hard, as well as anyone who agrees with you. I got no use for you.

Friday, May 28, 2010 - 18:26 To President Obama:
Mr. President, you're a god damn, mother fucking liar.
Fuck you, you cock sucking community activist piece of shit.
... go fuck yourself, Mr. President.

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Wednesday, July 28, 2010 2:49 PM

CHRISISALL

Quote:
Originally posted by Niki2:
I would have thought everyone could see through FauxNews, Coulter, Rushbaugh, and especially Beck...but like you said, here they are.

Tests show that followers aren't too particular. In fact, the more intelligent, the more the need for a fantasy idea of reality.
The rest of us have a few beers every so often.
A smaller percentage are suicide or mental ward victims.

Life is insane. Kill to live, but regulate it.
Kill a company legally- good. Kill a pig to eat- good. Kill a Pit Bull in an organized dogfight- bad. Kill an intruder in your home bent on no good- bad.

Hypocrisy is the cornerstone of true civilization.
I guess.

The laughing Chrisisall

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Wednesday, July 28, 2010 5:07 PM

FREMDFIRMA

Robespierres mistake was in addressing a SYMPTOM, not the root cause.

You keep scraping the scum off the top, and more just bubbles up, over and over, it's a no-win situation and a temporary solution at the very best, albiet quite, quite satisfying to the folks who got screwed for whole generations when they got to watch the heads come off - till they started having concerns about their own, that is...

The solution is to quit PRODUCING sociopathic people who think that other human beings are nothing more than a renewable resource base, and for that, you have to revisit a way of raising and teaching them that is practically an assembly line for making monsters.

It's a credit to the strength and resilience of human spirit that despite this, most people STILL do not turn out that way despite every effort, so many resources, wasted by the bastards of the world trying to make more of themselves.

-Frem

I do not serve the Blind God.

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Wednesday, July 28, 2010 7:16 PM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

I'm waiting for the ripped videoclip from Wulf which attacks people who QUOTE others!

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Thursday, July 29, 2010 2:05 AM

RIVERLOVE

Maddow is a spunky little butched-up psycho-dyke whose every utterance is a lie. A propaganda bitch preaching to her tiny liberal idiot audience, no wonder Niki adores her so much and takes her word as gospel.

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Thursday, July 29, 2010 2:58 AM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

River, love... are you being deeply ironic on purpose??? Because you just did the very thing your cartoon accuses the left wing of... substituting name-calling for substantive discussion. And you managed to follow one right after the other... in the very same post, nonetheless! If so- congrats on your self-reflective irony! If not- congrats on turning your brain off!

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Thursday, July 29, 2010 3:20 AM

PIZMOBEACH

... fully loaded, safety off...

Quote:
Originally posted by mal4prez:
Pizmo: for me, it's about the wrong solution being applied to a very big problem, with nothing but ever bigger failure to follow. Our economy is sick. A big part of the reason is how wealth is being concentrated by those is power. They talk the average idiot like Wulf into following their "trickledown" idea, which flat out does not work. A healthier economy will result from lots of people having a little more to spend, rather than a few people having a lot-lot-LOT more.

So, you may disagree, but my problem with wealth disparity has nothing to do with selling you a Honda. It's about trying to solve a problem.

So what does that have to do with the salaries of CEOs? If they were paid minimum wage would they somehow have less political influence running a gajillion dollar business? I have a huge problem with corporate political influence (Health "Insurance" - omg), and campaign finance can't happen soon enough, but we're not getting that story because it doesn't sell things like "hate the rich" stories do.

Scifi movie music + Firefly dialogue clips, 24 hours a day - http://www.scifiradio.com

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Thursday, July 29, 2010 3:20 AM

GEEZER

Keep the Shiny side up

Quote:
Originally posted by Niki2:
So let's all give the rich more tax breaks, 'cuz it's profiting all of us! Yes indeedy...

Actually, according to the graph you posted, we are all making more. Granted, the higher quintile you are, the larger your amount of gain, but all quintiles are showing an increase in income.

"Keep the Shiny side up"

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Thursday, July 29, 2010 3:41 AM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Geezer, this gets back to my point: It's not the absolute amount of money is a system that causes it to collapse, its the INEQUITY.

If money is concentrated in the hands of a few, it's like blood pooled around the heart. Money is like blood: it doesn't do any good unless its circulating. It's not a question of fairness, it's simple economic fact.

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Thursday, July 29, 2010 3:46 AM

RIVERLOVE

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
River, love... are you being deeply ironic on purpose??? Because you just did the very thing your cartoon accuses the left wing of... substituting name-calling for substantive discussion. And you managed to follow one right after the other... in the very same post, nonetheless! If so- congrats on your self-reflective irony! If not- congrats on turning your brain off!

Signy, hiney - a "substantive discussion?" Are you even remotely serious? Better check on your own on/off brain switch.

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Thursday, July 29, 2010 3:56 AM

Hey Niki,
I had some other thoughts and questions about this article.

1) Are the rest of us really getting poorer? Your article states, "Arloc Sherman, a researcher for CBPP, said the income gap is expanding not because the middle class is losing income, but because the wealthiest incomes are skyrocketing". So it doesn't sound like we are getting poor -- just that the rich are getting richer.

2) What is the huge problem with the top 1% of income earners making inordinately huge amounts of money? Aren't there always going to be people who make huge quantities of money? It would be nice if they shared, but that is their choice. Why should we take their money by force (more laws)?

ETA: I would also add that even the people making lower incomes here are still rich compared to many in the world. If we want to talk about financial disparities, we should maybe also consider the US's wealth vs most of the world, to put things in perspective and maybe wake us up a bit...

3) Is the reason for this disparity between the top 1% and the rest of us really due to the Bush tax cuts? Could there be other reasons? I don't know if this is a reliable source, but this article makes a case for the global economy and job exporting contributing to the gap http://www.businessinsider.com/22-statistics-that-prove-the-middle-cla
ss-is-being-systematically-wiped-out-of-existence-in-america-2010-7

4) I think it is also important to remember that the wealthiest people already pay the bulk of taxes in this country. This article talks about how the wealthiest pay the highest percent in taxes (unless you're Warren Buffet, who gets around that) http://www.nytimes.com/2007/07/16/business/worldbusiness/16iht-tax.4.6
680311.html and I think it is well known that most of the US income tax revenue comes from the wealthy already (which,I think, even if it isn't "fair", it is still probably "right" -- as opposed to doing a flat tax for everyone)

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Thursday, July 29, 2010 4:00 AM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Quote:
What is the huge problem with the top 1% of income earners making inordinately huge amounts of money? Aren't there always going to be people who make huge quantities of money? It would be nice if they shared, but that is their choice. Why should we take their money by force (more laws)?

Obviously, you haven't been paying attention, to history or to economic theory.

It's like I said, money is like blood, it doesn't do any good unless it's circulating. And if just a few people have most of it, then it's not circulating.

Let me try this example: If 1% of the population has 90% of the money, who do they sell the output of their factories to? Each other? There's only so much a rich person can buy.

I think it was Whozit who said it best: How can companies impoverish their workers when they count on them as customers? And the answer is: They can't. At the time, I congratulated him for discovering the fundamental cause of economic collapse. Progressive taxation was not a socialist cause, it was a rescue plan for capitalism .

Quote:
Is the reason for this disparity between the top 1% and the rest of us really due to the Bush tax cuts?

In a word; YES. The United Stated was doing its best, economically-speaking, when the top tax rate was 90%. Yep, the highest incomes were taxed at 90%. The disparity between the line-worker and the boss was only a factor of ten or so, because it made no sense to earn money that would be taxed away. Because of that, businesses actually paid higher wages AND higher dividends, and put more money into research. People could buy stuff... houses, refrigerators, cars... without going deeply into debt. The savings rate was higher.

Now, CEO salaries are topped out at 38% for "ordinary income" and less for "capital gains" so it make perfect sense to grab as much money as you can. HUGE amounts of money... amounts that materially affect re-investment, dividends and wages... are being sucked off at the top. People can no longer afford to buy anything without going into debt. The economy runs on consumer credit, and when the credit runs out the economy collapses. People are laid off, which reduces demand even further, causing more layoffs.

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Thursday, July 29, 2010 4:10 AM

Sig -- I can see the concern about money not circulating if it is in the hands of the wealthy. Is that truly the case, though? Aren't the wealthy investing their money and buying lots of stuff, too? If so, they are circulating the money. You hear about the millionaires who got there by being excessively frugal, but I think many still spend and save (and bank account money is invested, too, right?).

Also, it sure seems like the middle and lower classes still spend plenty of money. In these economic times, sure, people may be spending less, but it still seems like we all still spend a lot of money -- especially compared to other countries (I could be wrong, though. Anyone have a nice article on how much american consumers spend?).

Of course, I'm not arguing that the wealth disparity is a good thing -- I think it would be nice if everyone shared more. I'm just not sure the wealth disparity in the US is going to lead to catastrophe from within and I'm not so sure we should force people to share.

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Thursday, July 29, 2010 4:20 AM

FUTUREMRSFILLION

Quote:
Originally posted by HKCavalier:
Quote:
Originally posted by Wulfenstar:
Shes not even quoting, shes plagerizing chapter and verse, and claiming it as her own.

Nix, do you have any thoughts on this matter that are your own?
Okay, I know this is ill advised of me but--oh well. What Niki is quoting here, is the news, the data, the information. Quoting news is just that, quoting news. It doesn't really count as plagiarism. Niki posts the news in the quotation part and gives you her "color" commentary in the blue text. It's really not that hard to grasp, is it?

I'm well aware that you want to make Niki look bad, but if you choose an idiotic means to that end, it just makes you look bad.

Carry on.

HKCavalier

Hey, hey, hey, don't be mean. We don't have to be mean, because, remember, no matter where you go, there you are.

Actually it is impossible to "plagerize" anything. Additionally she is not plagiarizing when she clearly posts the website she obtained the information from. Check your MLA formatting and style guide. Next time you try to make a fool out of someone, at least make sure you are right and have the correct spelling.

As HK said, and I quote - "carry on"

I am on The List. We are The Forsaken and we aim to burn!
"We don't fear the reaper"

FORSAKEN original

Yes We Did!

“I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ.” Mahatma Gandhi

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Thursday, July 29, 2010 4:23 AM

FUTUREMRSFILLION

Quote:
Originally posted by Riverlove:
Maddow is a spunky little butched-up psycho-dyke whose every utterance is a lie.

and for some reason the ever childish response of "takes one to know one" comes to mind.

Whatever happened to rational and respectful debate? It is possible to have opposing views without regressing to the first grade.

I am on The List. We are The Forsaken and we aim to burn!
"We don't fear the reaper"

FORSAKEN original

Yes We Did!

“I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ.” Mahatma Gandhi

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Thursday, July 29, 2010 4:29 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
Quote:
What is the huge problem with the top 1% of income earners making inordinately huge amounts of money? Aren't there always going to be people who make huge quantities of money? It would be nice if they shared, but that is their choice. Why should we take their money by force (more laws)?

Obviously, you haven't been paying attention, to history or to economic theory.
It's like I said, money is like blood, it doesn't do any good unless it's circulating. And if just a few people have most of it, then it's not circulating.

Well, I was asking the question because I was curious. Looking throughout history, there have always been societies with the haves and the have nots. Sometimes the have nots rebel from within, and sometimes regimes topple for other reasons (like other "haves" taking over, or other countries invading). So, is there some article that actually talks about regime changes throughout history and makes the case that most regime changes are due to the poor revolting? (I need something more specific than "you haven't been paying attention to history").

I don't find economic theory all that compelling (yes, I'm ignorant, but from what little I know, there is no universally agreed upon economic theory and you will always find different theories out there with not insignificant numbers of proponents for each).

Quote:
Let me try this example: If 1% of the population has 90% of the money, who do they sell the output of their factories to? Each other? There's only so much a rich person can buy.

Yes, I can see that. But in the US, I think the remaining %10 is still a huge amount, and it seems to keep the system growing and expanding in general (Assuming your 90% number is applying to the US). China's economy is growing, too. Don't they have a substantial chunk of the population in what we could consider poverty? (Hmmm, or maybe you would argue that because of the financial disparity, they are headed for a people's revolt, too?).

ETA: Oh, I can see from your previous post that your concern is that even if people are still spending, it is because they are running up consumer debt, not because they actually have the money.

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Thursday, July 29, 2010 4:40 AM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Quote:
Aren't the wealthy investing their money and buying lots of stuff, too? If so, they are circulating the money. You hear about the millionaires who got there by being excessively frugal, but I think many still spend and save (and bank account money is invested, too, right?).

The rich can spend only so much money. They get bored with buying houses and yachts and using champagne in their toilets. At some point, they "save" or "invest".

So, let's look at where they invest, or where their savings are invested for them.

But let's start out with the idea that the only "investment" that does any good... for the economy as a whole ... is an investment which creates jobs.

So...are the rich going to invest in a factory to produce more cars? WHO are you going to sell the cars to?

Are they going to "invest" in car and home loans? Because while it creates a temporary bump in consumption, THAT eventually sucks more money out of the general economy too.

Do they buy out other companies to increase their market share? THAT doesn't create jobs!

Do they invest in more automation? THAT doesn't create jobs either!

Invest in venture capital? Same problem- who're you going to sell the products too? (Venture capital falls first in a recession.)

At some point, the rich stop investing and start "speculating"... "investing" in items which do not create jobs, or indeed have anything at all to do with production ... gold, diamonds, paintings, land, other currencies.

It's hard to imagine that money DOESN'T flow everywhere, but it doesn't. Hard to visualize "what happens to money"... where it goes, who has it, where it goes next... But imagine that money doesn't behave like water, it behaves like gravity... the more money you have, the more money you get... and eventually it behaves like a black hole.

The thing that keeps people from following the trail to its logical end is that once they start to think about it they see the problem even from a distance... like Whozit did. And people automatically think But that's not possible, that doesn't work!. And they're absolutely right! That's what caused the Great Depression... and all the previous depressions before that.

It was Keynes' and Roosevelt's solutions that kept the system from collapsing as long as it did. Keynes' solution to the problem (of money being sequestered out of the system and no longer available for consumption) was expanding the money supply. Roosevelt's solution was progressive taxation and wealth redistribution.

Reagan and Bush systematically took that apart, and kicked the underpinnings out from under the economy. (And Clinton's love affair with free trade didn't help either.) To the extent that the EU began to follow the same "neo-liberal" policy is the extent they got into trouble too.

Quote:
But in the US, I think the remaining %10 is still a huge amount, and it seems to keep the system growing and expanding in general

Our economy has been running on past glories and past redistribution of wealth for a long time, and on credit for a long time after that.

There seems to be a figure... and I'm sure that a mathematical model can be developed to simulate the inner workings... that says that when the top 1% of the population controls roughly 25% of the total wealth, the economy will collapse. It happened in 1929 and in 2008 at exactly the same concentration of wealth. EXACTLY the same point. That speaks to a fundamental underlying mechanism.

And I suspect that the same problem applied to the Roman Empire, to monarchist France and to Tsarist Russia: if you have an economy that uses capital, and wealth is concentrated at the top, you will suffer an economic collapse, and a social, political, and military one as well.

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Thursday, July 29, 2010 4:52 AM

AGENTROUKA

Quote:
Originally posted by Fremdfirma:
Robespierres mistake was in addressing a SYMPTOM, not the root cause.

I rather think his problem was being a psychopath who promoted something akin to genocide?

Flawed political structure and deeply unjust tax burden and inequality aside, I think their version of "scraping off the scum" was highly reprehensible. Absolutely loathsome, in fact. No less rooted in sociopathic inhumanity than the system they were fighting.

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Thursday, July 29, 2010 5:06 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by mal4prez:
Quote:
Originally posted by Bytemite:
It just... I don't know that I can commit to a course of action where we take someone out of power, then hand those exact same reigns to someone equally flawed, equally fallible, equally prone to corruption. There's a such thing as a power vacuum, as you say, but how do you limit the power that comes from filling it? Concentration of power rarely decays or distributes over time.
Anti-trust happened once. I can only keep hoping that it will again. If we can break up the monopolies and get the corporate dollar out of our elections, our system will be all shiny and new. But with a few hundred years of history and precedent to give it stability.

I'm not saying it'll happen. But it is possible. Depends on who we elect.

-----------------------------------------------
hmm-burble-blah, blah-blah-blah, take a left

Hmm. The problem I see is the SEC is pretty corrupt and in bed with the same businesses they're regulating. There's this idea that we vote for a president and a few congress people from each state and it somehow changes the parts and gears in the machinery. It only changes hands.

Can't change parts unless you deconstruct things a little bit. What we're doing is we keep adding parts on and hope that'll fix it, but the part we're modifying is still basically the same, it still has the same function.

We can maybe change things if we choose the right leaders, but they've only got 4 years to work to undo over two centuries of creeping corruption. And if the wrong people get in after that, they'll undo all the changes.

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Thursday, July 29, 2010 5:14 AM

Bah, economics is all run by magic and voodoo dolls. There's lots of theories, but I don't think anyone knows just what the hell is going on.

Aside from the cicada cycle, which is a seventeen year cycle of technology progress then stagnation which is reflected in the stock market, nothing is predictable. You know financial markets have been hiring quantum physicists to try to predict what's going on? That's what makes it all so funny. Quantum physics is entirely random!

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Thursday, July 29, 2010 5:20 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by AgentRouka:
Quote:
Originally posted by Fremdfirma:
Robespierres mistake was in addressing a SYMPTOM, not the root cause.

I rather think his problem was being a psychopath who promoted something akin to genocide?

Flawed political structure and deeply unjust tax burden and inequality aside, I think their version of "scraping off the scum" was highly reprehensible. Absolutely loathsome, in fact. No less rooted in sociopathic inhumanity than the system they were fighting.

Maybe, AR, but these people always come back. If they're not in power, their little regime goes underground, until such point as they can curry enough influence to have their own just as bloody revolution to put them back on top again. It's the dialectic in action.

There were two other options: exile, or the French Revolution could have round up all the nobles, including the children, and kept them all imprisoned for the rest of their natural lives. Possibly better than the guillotine, and I agree people were angry and out for blood, and it was wrong and horrible what they did, but if you think about it, there WERE no good options at the time. Both life imprisonment (especially in those times) and execution were horrible, bad. Could they have sent them into exile? Yes. Would they have come back for revenge with allies and armies? Oh yes. Which is better? Hard to say. No matter what, lots of people would have died.

I hope America doesn't come to that... But I think it will. Then what? Some new group of people come into power, telling everyone what to do, exploiting the labour force. Same old bullshit. Nothing ever changes.

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Thursday, July 29, 2010 5:47 AM