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Originally posted by pizmobeach:

My blood's up, had to check.

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Sadly, I don't think you're ever going to stop race on this one.

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Originally posted by FutureMrsFIllion:
I don't know why we just don't make it easier on the powers that be in Arizona and require all immigrants to wear a star. Green for legal, red for illegal..............

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"We're indigenous people". Is your name Gonzales? If is is, you're no more indigenous that O'Leary.

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This is one area where the left-wing and I part company.

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Originally posted by AnthonyT:
"There's a difference between a law that would require US citizens to carry proof of citizenship at all times, and a law that would require a US citizen under "reasonable suspicion" to provide a law enforcement officer with proof of citizenship when it is requested."

Hello,

Some US citizens will not be able to control when they come under 'reasonable suspicion' from an enterprising police officer.

Those citizens will have to carry citizenship proof at all times, else risk arrest during every encounter with law enforcement.

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Originally posted by Wulfenstar:
Nuke Mexico, allow for the illegals here to earn their way to citizenship.

Problem solved.

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Originally posted by AnthonyT:
My personal problem is that I don't want citizens who may fit a certain profile to have to produce evidence of citizenship. I like that the U.S. doesn't require citizens to have proof of citizenship when they're going about their business. It makes the U.S. seem less oppressive than many other nations, and I enjoy that atmosphere.

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Originally posted by AURaptor:

Only you would equate segregation to illegal immigration.

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Originally posted by Wulfenstar:
SURPRISE.

Dems are trying to use this a way of getting hispanics on THEIR side.

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Originally posted by Geezer:

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Originally posted by AnthonyT:
My personal problem is that I don't want citizens who may fit a certain profile to have to produce evidence of citizenship. I like that the U.S. doesn't require citizens to have proof of citizenship when they're going about their business. It makes the U.S. seem less oppressive than many other nations, and I enjoy that atmosphere.

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It is Federal law that legal immigrants and visitors must carry proof of their legal status (Green cards, visas, passports, etc.) at all times.

"Keep the Shiny side up"

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I also will continue to contend that it IS a racist law. Jo lived here illegally for several years before she got legal (by marrying Curt, but that’s another story...). Do you think any cop would have ever pulled her over and asked if she was illegal? They wouldn’t have, because people who don’t look Hispanic...especially on the border states...aren’t hassled. The idea that cops would ever ask anyone who didn’t look Hispanic for their papers is a joke; ergo, they are being singled out by their race.

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Of course I consider myself a “race”. It’s a fact of law; I’m Caucasian. I might not look at others that way, I might (and probably do) have some negro blood in me, but it doesn’t count unless it shows. That’s how it is in the real world...how you talk, what you wear, your looks and color of your skin determine what “race” you are to others.

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Actually, the Mexicans in California have more right to call themselves “indigenous” than the rest of us do. If being here first makes you indigenous, and they were here long before the rest even landed at Plymouth Rock (or wherever). We bought and took the land from them...and of course a lot of THEM weren’t indigenous to Mexico, but to Span, or interbred, or whatever.

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Overwhelming a society, I disagree. Of almost all the world, America has more arable land and space to incorporate other cultures. We still have plenty of room. We are still a huge country, mostly unpopulated,

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Immigrants health status (communicable diseases) need to be checked. They need to be taught the language. They need to understand the laws. They need to understand their rights under the laws. They need jobs. Unless you can manage all of those, you're creating a sub-class within your own country.-Signy

is exactly what legal immigrants DO*. We need a universal policy, some way to incorporate those who are now illegal into the country legally so they can do those thing. Right now, yes, they ARE a sub-class. So what is your answer? Deport them all? Deport just the ones you can find? The latter won’t do any good, the former is another “third rail” politicians can’t get beyond. But it’s the obvious answer; there will always be illegal immigrants in every country. Some way to fix the border and integrate those already here is, in my opinion, the only viable answer. If it can be done, I dunno.-Niki

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and if we could take in all those other nationalities, why should we deny any other class? It smacks of “I’ve got mine, fuck you”. I know you mean illegals, but to me it still does.

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I wasn't referring to the Wild West; I was comparing us with places like Europe, Japan, etc., where populatio density is MUCH higher than here and where there is less arable land for people to inhabit. so many different cultures immigrated to America and to its cities before the West was even "tamed" and for a long, long time thereafter, and we managed to accept them. We still have lots of space for people, to deny that would be a fallacy.

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As to "entitlement", I think what one hears from speakers isn't necessarily indicative of how people feel. Take the Tea Party for example. Any speaker for a movement is going to use rhetoric that will encourage the people to whom they are speaking. I see absolutely no sense of entitlement in the large number of Hispanics (some no doubt illegal) standing and sitting by the road hoping for work, and I don't hear it from the Hispanics I talk to. Most of them I have met in the clnic when taking Jo there, and they are grateful for the health care, afraid of losing their opportunities, and not expectant of any "entitlement".

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As to resources, we'll just have to agree to disagree. We are still an incredibly rich country compared to others, and it was brought home to me living in Afghanistan how lucky I was to be born in America; also how luck I was that my mother immigrated here. My beliefs lead me to feel that because we are a rich country and because it's the luck of the draw where one is born, I have no problem devoting resources to newcomers.

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Sig, I agree with your enumerated points almost completely--the complexity of what you call "anchor babies" leaves me on the fence about that one.

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Originally posted by SignyM:
NIKI:

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I also will continue to contend that it IS a racist law. Jo lived here illegally for several years before she got legal (by marrying Curt, but that’s another story...). Do you think any cop would have ever pulled her over and asked if she was illegal? They wouldn’t have, because people who don’t look Hispanic...especially on the border states...aren’t hassled. The idea that cops would ever ask anyone who didn’t look Hispanic for their papers is a joke; ergo, they are being singled out by their race.

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To be perfectly correct... "Hispanic" is not a "race", any more than being "Spanish" is a race. It's an ethnicity. Unless, of course, you're Hispanic, in which case you DO consider your self a "race" (la raza = the race, the people).

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Of course I consider myself a “race”. It’s a fact of law; I’m Caucasian. I might not look at others that way, I might (and probably do) have some negro blood in me, but it doesn’t count unless it shows. That’s how it is in the real world...how you talk, what you wear, your looks and color of your skin determine what “race” you are to others.

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Culture determines how you talk, what you wear, what you eat... you're got a lot of things conflated into the concept of race. Singling out someone because they speak Spanish isn''t "racism". Singling out someone because they have brown skin IS.

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Actually, the Mexicans in California have more right to call themselves “indigenous” than the rest of us do. If being here first makes you indigenous, and they were here long before the rest even landed at Plymouth Rock (or wherever). We bought and took the land from them...and of course a lot of THEM weren’t indigenous to Mexico, but to Span, or interbred, or whatever.

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Columbus, who was Italian, was here before the Spanish. Vikings were here before Columbus. Siberian Asians were here before the Vikings, and Aborigines were here before Siberian Asians, so the only people who can TRULY claims to be indigenous were the aborigines. Unfortunately, they no longer exist. If the claim to be indigenous rests on who managed to wipe out the previous peoples the most thoroughly, then the Spanish made a fair show, since they wiped out 90% of the people who were here before them.

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Overwhelming a society, I disagree. Of almost all the world, America has more arable land and space to incorporate other cultures. We still have plenty of room. We are still a huge country, mostly unpopulated,

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For god's sake Niki! You might not have noticed, but we're not settling the Wild West anymore! It's not like we're giving immigrants 40 acres and a mule. Immigrants come to our largest cities, and are trying to fit into a complex economy. Unless they speak the language, unless you have some minimum education, they WILL be part of the big underclass.

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Immigrants health status (communicable diseases) need to be checked. They need to be taught the language. They need to understand the laws. They need to understand their rights under the laws. They need jobs. Unless you can manage all of those, you're creating a sub-class within your own country.-Signy

is exactly what legal immigrants DO*. We need a universal policy, some way to incorporate those who are now illegal into the country legally so they can do those thing. Right now, yes, they ARE a sub-class. So what is your answer? Deport them all? Deport just the ones you can find? The latter won’t do any good, the former is another “third rail” politicians can’t get beyond. But it’s the obvious answer; there will always be illegal immigrants in every country. Some way to fix the border and integrate those already here is, in my opinion, the only viable answer. If it can be done, I dunno.-Niki

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*No, it doesn't. Legalization is not integration. And integration is a lengthy process which takes intensive education and years of services. Even today, there are Hmong in Central California who steal brides.

It doesn't help that illegal Hispanics here feel a sense of entitlement... they shouldn't need to speak English, everyone should learn Spanish. They don't need to change their orientation to "their people", everyone should just accept that there is a group of people (la Raza) who have different loyalties. They don't need to pay attention to our laws, our laws should change to accommodate THEM.

Because I listen to Hispanic protest organizers, and that is indeed exactly how they frame it. Along with a health does of "us" (la Raza) versus "them" (Norte Americanos, gringos).

My dad was an immigrant. My husband is an immigrant. And a couple of past boyfriends were Indian. But because their nationalities (Not race, nationalities) came over in small numbers, they didn't have the opportunity to dive into a same-language ghetto: they HAD to integrate. AND, their background cultures believed in education. But when you have a large influx of people coming in all at the same time, it's possible to create a little world where old language, old loyalties, old habits, old aspirations live on and on. And some of the less-attractive features of most Hispanic immigrants is their complete disregard for education, particularly for women. Along with a casual acceptance of la mordita... the little bite... to every government functionary at every level.

So, to get back to where I started... Immigration is quick, legalization is slower, but integration is slowest. It is the rate limiting step* (* A process can only go as fast as the slowest step in it.) I read an interesting story about people from Somalia who were having a helluva time integrating into Indiana (I believe it was). Years later, the women (who were isolated in their homes) still didn't speak English, and families were still traumatized by what they had experienced, leading to domestic violence and other problems. They had high rates of unemployment, difficulties adjusting to winter, to the lack of extended family, to the necessity of having to drive, problem at work stemming from not knowing their rights and resources... These aren't trivial issues. It takes a LOT of resources to get people to being fully-functional in any culture, and the farther away the culture the more difficult it is.

So, how much resources do you want to commit to making everyone not LEGAL but INTEGRATED?

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and if we could take in all those other nationalities, why should we deny any other class? It smacks of “I’ve got mine, fuck you”. I know you mean illegals, but to me it still does.

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Let's take New Zealand as an example of how they "got theirs"... they "got theirs" (universal health care, prion-free status, excellent ecological health) from national policies which most people in their roughly 4.4 million population understand and contribute to.

Tell me, how do you think their progressive policies would fare if they were suddenly inundated with 1 million illegal immigrants from, say- China?

There ARE perfectly ethical reasons to want to limit immigration.

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It's not a black-white thing. I don't like laws which depend on "Citizen, your papers, please!"

But if I were king for a day, there are some things I would do:

1) Raise the Federal minimum wage from $7.45 and hour to $10 and hour, automatically index it to inflation, and require health benefits for every employee, even part-time

2) Hang every employer, economically-speaking, who pays less than the minimum wage/ benefits, and /or who hires illegal immigrants. That goes for contractors and homeowners who hire illegal day-laborers

3) Get rid of the anchor-baby clause in our Constitution. Require that children be born of American citizens in order to be American citizens. That would DEFINITELY create an impetus for people to get citizenship!

4) Put tariffs on goods coming from low-wage countries and allow other nations to place tariffs on our subsidized foods. If it wasn't for our subsidized corn flooding Mexico and our subsidized rice flooding Haiti, there wouldn't be so many displaced farmers.

5) Stop militarily supporting the (pro-corporate) tyrannies that make life intolerable in other nations.

6) Legalize marijuana. Not exactly an immigration issue; more of a border problem.

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