REAL WORLD EVENT DISCUSSIONS

Understanding Pakistan

POSTED BY: KPO
UPDATED: Tuesday, August 13, 2024 06:46
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Thursday, August 5, 2010 3:41 PM

KPO

Sometimes you own the libs. Sometimes, the libs own you.


I personally find Pakistan a very frustrating country, but it's worth understanding them, and this is a good blog post: http://blogs.the-american-interest.com/wrm/2010/08/02/the-roots-of-pak
istans-rage
/

It's not personal. It's just war.

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Friday, August 6, 2010 8:55 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Thanx KPO! I found that fascinating, and learned a lot. I’ve condensed it to cover salient points for those that don’t want to read the whole thing. I think it’s important. He points to four major issues that affect Pakistanis’ attitudes:
Quote:

India

The struggle between Hindus and Muslims across India is a thousand years old. Muslim conquerors stormed down from today’s Iran and Afghanistan to build some of the world’s richest and most powerful empires. A tolerant and complex civilization grew up across the subcontinent; Hindus and Muslims sometimes fought but often they lived together reasonably well and, as Muslims remember it, this was a happy and prosperous time.

British conquest of India destroyed the Islamic empires. Muslims (roughly 25% of the total population) lost the protection of powerful princes; the British sought to divide and rule the two communities, favoring now one and then then other. Muslims came to feel that the subcontinent sheltered two nations: one Hindu, one Muslim and that the differences between the two were so great that the Muslims needed their own state. Muslims insisted on and obtained the partition of British India into Hindu and Muslim states. Pakistan was the state for the Muslims.

The British left India in a hurry as the subcontinent descended into chaos. Millions of Hindus and Muslims on the wrong side of the dividing line fled or were driven from their homes. Something like 14.5 million refugees were created initially with ultimately about 25 million people moving from one country to the other; somewhere between 200,000 and 1,000,000 people were killed in vicious communal riots whose memory still poisons the region today.

British also allowed the rulers of the “princely states” to choose whether to join India or Pakistan; Kashmir’s ruler opted for India.. India won the war, and continues to hold most of the old princely state.

In subsequent years, life in both countries, but especially in Pakistan, was dominated by the consequences of Partition. Settling refugees, periodic wars, the running sore of Kashmir: all keep the memories alive. Almost everything in Pakistan’s history revolves around the unequal struggle with India.. Pakistan’s nuclear weapons program is seen here as a triumph against the odds, and the nuclear arsenal is seen as the country’s last-ditch ace in the hole. Most Pakistanis are completely convinced that India is ceaselessly plotting Pakistan’s destruction and everything in Pakistani foreign policy boils down to a simple calculation about who is winning the zero-sum contest between these two states.

Since 1989 American foreign policy has been shiftinh slowly towards a strategic partnership with India. From an American perspective, the rise of India towards superpower status is one of the best things happening in the world today. The rise of India means China’s rise is likely to be peaceful; sharing Asia with India and Japan means that China is less likely to try to dominate Asia. A peaceful China balanced by powerful neighbors is exactly what the United States hopes to see.

The burgeoning US-India relationship frightens and horrifies Pakistan. The US takes India’s side in major controversies — blaming Pakistan for terrorism in Kashmir and India while doing nothing about India’s actions in Kashmir. Worst of all, the US is helping India gain access to nuclear materials and nuclear technologies while continuing to block Pakistan’s attempts in the field.

India is the first major issue driving the US and Pakistan apart; Americans should not underestimate its importance. India is an all consuming obsession for many people here, and the presence of a larger, rapidly growing and richer neighbor just 18 miles from Lahore is something many Pakistanis can never forget. The perception that America is betraying its old and faithful Pakistani ally to benefit from India’s rise unites the military and those in the religious community who hate and fear Hinduism even as it alienates many patriotic Pakistanis who have no religious ax to grind.

Afghanistan

The second major issue shaping negative Pakistani feelings about the United States is almost as important. Pakistanis are on the front lines in the war on terror and Afghanistan is, literally, right on their doorstep. Pakistanis have no confidence in America’s regional strategy and they are convinced that American blunders have created a multifaceted disaster that has already cost Pakistan dear. Many Pakistanis believe that the US invasion of Afghanistan was a mistake in the first place; Mullah Omar offered to send Osama Bin Laden to stand trial in a third country, they say, and the US should have accepted that. More, they argue that American policy from the beginning was a disaster. We invaded in the wrong place at the wrong time; we refused to work with the people who could have helped us; we lost our focus on Afghanistan to turn toward Iraq (a war deeply hated by many Pakistanis). Now, inevitably, the disaster in Afghanistan has spread across the border into Pakistan.

The US, Pakistanis say, has given only derisory military aid — $1.5 billion versus the estimated $40 billion the war has cost Pakistan. More, we are blaming the victim. The spread of radical violence in Pakistan is the direct result, they say, of the American war and blunders in Afghanistan. We even want them to dismantle their defenses against India to move forces to the Afghan frontier.

US threats against Iran threaten Pakistan’s economic interests and political stability. Pakistanis darkly suspect that Indian money and agents are responsible for violence in troubled parts of Pakistan. Many Pakistanis believe that on top of everything else, the US is now getting ready either to cut and run in Afghanistan, leaving Pakistan with the thankless task of sweeping up, or, worse, handing northern Afghanistan to India.

America and Islam

The third problem is that many Pakistanis fear — and some are convinced — that Americans are anti-Muslim.. The relative silence in the US about the situation in Kashmir compared to American hyperventilation about other problems strikes many Pakistanis as further proof that Americans don’t care as much about human rights problems that Muslims experience.

"Why, Pakistanis darkly wonder, do Hollywood stars fall all over themselves about poor Tibet, but Americans seem to glide right past the problems of Kashmir? Is this part of a global struggle against Islam?" Many Pakistanis think so. Islam stands at the core of Pakistan’s identity. Without Islam, there is no rationale for partition. Unlike many Muslim countries that have an ethnic as well as a religious identity), Pakistan’s ethnic groups have only Islam to hold them together. Take Islam away and there is no point to Pakistan.

Unwelcome Influence

Fourth, Pakistanis think Americans make all the big decisions here and that Pakistan’s institutions, including the military, have to knuckle under to American pressure. They sometimes talk about the “three As” that run Pakistan: Allah, the Army and America.

Most Pakistanis seem convinced that the US prefers military to democratic governments in Pakistan, and that America’s alliance with Pakistan’s own corrupt civilian elites and unpopular military rulers is the main reason that these undesirable people have controlled the country for so long.




Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off




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Friday, August 6, 2010 2:57 PM

KPO

Sometimes you own the libs. Sometimes, the libs own you.


Quote:

Thanx KPO! I found that fascinating, and learned a lot.

As did I. In particular I was surprised by:

"The US, Pakistanis say, has given only derisory military aid — $1.5 billion versus the estimated $40 billion the war has cost Pakistan."

Whereas before, I had pretty much formed the impression that the U.S was funding the whole thing...

And also:

"More than 60,000 people have been killed in clashes between Indian security forces and Kashmiris in recent years; this is much worse than anything that has happened in Tibet."

60,000 since 1989 I think that is. I didn't realise it was that much of an open sore, although apparently the situation is easing. I was beginning to think that the U.S should be pushing for a peace deal on the Kashmiri issue just as much as the Israel/Palestinian conflict - but then I read this:

http://www.forbes.com/2008/11/30/obama-kashmir-mumbai-oped-cx_rs_1201s
alam.html

What Should Obama Do On Kashmir?
Reihan Salam

"For months now, Barack Obama's foreign policy team has been promoting the idea that the road to a secure Afghanistan runs through Kashmir. Taking a long view of the conflict, Obama seems to have concluded that resolving the dispute over Kashmir will allow Pakistan to focus on defeating Islamist militants in Afghanistan and within its own borders. This is an interesting notion, but American mediation will in all likelihood make matters much worse.

Right now, India and Pakistan are involved in the first serious bilateral talks on Kashmir's future in decades. An American role will raise nationalist sensitivities in India, and it will strengthen the hand of Pakistani military elements who are reluctant to make any concessions on Kashmir. After all, why make concessions for free if the United States will offer you some generous financial incentive to do much the same thing? The smartest thing President Obama could do on Kashmir is probably nothing. We have to hope that India and Pakistan can work out their differences on Kashmir on their own. Our most pressing concern is to see to it that today's tensions don't become a wider war."

Hmm.

It's not personal. It's just war.

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Saturday, August 7, 2010 4:23 AM

KANEMAN


KPO, seeing that we are soul mates I have to ask you to not spend time researching Pakistan. I think your time (which I think highly) should be spent reading my constitution and the writings of America's founding fathers. Or start with Paine's common sense, however Thomas Jefferson's writings are a must read...I'll see you on the other side

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Saturday, August 7, 2010 4:51 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!



How many Pakistanis are researching and trying to understand us ?






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Saturday, August 7, 2010 12:09 PM

KPO

Sometimes you own the libs. Sometimes, the libs own you.


Auraptor you fascinate me as usual. You are for the idea of projecting American power around the world, promoting/defending American interests I suppose - but you are against the idea of understanding the world, local nations and cultures that you deal with and come into contact with in the process (this is just a liberal dalliance?)?

To my mind this kind of thinking leads directly to horrible mistakes like, "We'll be greeted as liberators." Is there anything worthwhile to you in 'knowing your enemy'? What about your friends? (Pakistan is both).

Kaneman, I'm sure your constitution is a thing of great philosophical merit and beauty, in which your traitorous founding fathers wrote ideas that were well ahead of their time... I'm still not completely sold. I respect your national character (or your right to one at least) - I guess I'm not sold on the idea that America as a nation is anything more than the sum of its parts: 300million strong English-founded nation with a (inherited) continent full of resources and a historical lucky streak... Perhaps if Canada or Australia were 300 million strong they would be better, more successful countries?

It's not personal. It's just war.

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Saturday, August 7, 2010 12:24 PM

GEEZER

Keep the Shiny side up


Per this article in Newsweek, Pakistan is pretty much playing the U.S. and Taliban off against each other to keep the aid $$ rolling in.


Quote:

The Afghan Taliban logistics officer laughs about the news he’s been hearing on his radio this past week. The story is that a Web site known as WikiLeaks has obtained and posted thousands of classified field reports from U.S. troops in Afghanistan, and hundreds of those reports mention the Americans’ suspicions that Pakistan is secretly assisting the Taliban—a charge that Pakistan has repeatedly and vehemently denied. “At least we have something in common with America,” the logistics officer says. “The Pakistanis are playing a double game with us, too.”


http://www.newsweek.com/2010/07/31/with-friends-like-these.html

"Keep the Shiny side up"

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Sunday, August 8, 2010 6:07 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Quote:

I guess I'm not sold on the idea that America as a nation is anything more than the sum of its parts: 300million strong English-founded nation with a (inherited) continent full of resources and a historical lucky streak... Perhaps if Canada or Australia were 300 million strong they would be better, more successful countries?
KPO, my opinion exactly.

Geezer, I also agree. When we were there, the Afghans were playing the Americans off the Russians for just the same reason. We'd build them a hospital, the Russians would build them a road (ironically, straight to Russia which they later used to invade); we'd give them an airways, Russia would give the grain silohs. It fits perfectly with the mentality of that part of the world...and not just that part, either.


Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off




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Sunday, August 8, 2010 11:26 AM

KPO

Sometimes you own the libs. Sometimes, the libs own you.


Good article Geezer, I agree with that assessment of things.

The question is do we stop at this reality, in our dealings with Pakistan? Throw our hands up in exasperation and resolve to take stern, principled action against the country, based on its behaviour? (this seems to be the preffered American mode of diplomacy)

Are tough, chastening policies the way to make a free, democratic and useful ally of Pakistan? or will they make Pakistan retreat into military dictatorship and Islamic extremism (the two often go together)?

I propose looking for a better strategy, based on understanding of the country, and where the malign elements (terrorist groups and the ISI) draw their power from (public fear of India and the U.S, and each other).

It's not personal. It's just war.

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Sunday, August 8, 2010 4:27 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

Originally posted by AURaptor:

How many Pakistanis are researching and trying to understand us ?





Sounds like you support following their example. Rather than try and research and understand, we should just start blowing shit up. Women, children, wedding parties...

Oh. We're already doing that in Pakistan!

AURaptor's Greatest Hits:

Friday, May 28, 2010 - 20:32 To AnthonyT:
Go fuck yourself.
On this matter, make no mistake. I want you to go fuck yourself long and hard, as well as anyone who agrees with you. I got no use for you.

Friday, May 28, 2010 - 18:26 To President Obama:
Mr. President, you're a god damn, mother fucking liar.
Fuck you, you cock sucking community activist piece of shit.
... go fuck yourself, Mr. President.


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Sunday, August 8, 2010 8:03 PM

FREMDFIRMA



Blaming Pakistan for exploiting our stupidity is a lot like blaming a lynching on the rope.

-Frem

I do not serve the Blind God.

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Monday, August 9, 2010 9:57 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


KPO -

I'm for projecting freedom more than American power. We can't and shouldn't try to be everywhere, but the idea that all men are created equal seems to me a noble and basic concept. ( and yes, by 'men', I mean all PEOPLE )

You want to waste time in understanding folks who continue to live with values from before the dark ages, cutting off the noses and ears of women for some nonsensical perceived crime they committed against their families' honor... by all means, study away.






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Monday, August 9, 2010 10:26 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Quote:

You want to waste time in understanding folks who continue to live with values from before the dark ages




...there are no words...

...which won't stop me from trying...

Wulf, they're HUMAN BEINGS! They feel the same things you do, they suffer the same things you do, they want the same things you do. The less we learn about the outside world and other cultures, the more MISTAKES we make, don't you get it? It's a good part of the reason we're in the pickle we're in; it's a good part of the reason we have such a shitty foreign policy; it's a good part of the reason we're failing in Afghanistan it's a good part of the reason we went blithely into Iraq: IGNORANCE!

The parochial attitude of Americans who grow up and never learn about other societies gauls me no end, just makes me want to scream. It's a global village, like it or not, and refusing to even try to understand other cultures just makes it all worse. The more ignorant you remain of the world, the worse YOU help make it for everyone. And you dare to talk about taking personal responsibility!

I can't believe it...what an attitude...

In this respect, sorry, but WaterSprite Nix canNOT forgive you for your deliberate ignorance.

(By the way, they don't cut the noses and ears off women.)


Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off




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Monday, August 9, 2010 10:34 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Quote:

Originally posted by Niki2:

Wulf, they're HUMAN BEINGS!

(By the way, they don't cut the noses and ears off women.)



I'm not Wulf

And yes, they do.




The Taliban, the tribal views that did this to the young woman in the photo.... they don't exactly recognized state borders. The monsters who did this very well could have come from Pakistan or Afghanistan.




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Monday, August 9, 2010 10:56 AM

BYTEMITE


Quote:

Originally posted by AURaptor:

I'm for projecting freedom more than American power. We can't and shouldn't try to be everywhere, but the idea that all men are created equal seems to me a noble and basic concept. ( and yes, by 'men', I mean all PEOPLE )

You want to waste time in understanding folks who continue to live with values from before the dark ages, cutting off the noses and ears of women for some nonsensical perceived crime they committed against their families' honor... by all means, study away.



When the Independents fought for the Rim against the Alliance, they represented worlds where life was brutal and harsh, where sometimes religious theocracy forced women into marriage with men and allowed the men to kill their wives if they were displeased. But the Independents fought for the Rim anyway, driven by the desire to believe what they want to believe, live how they want to live, and sometimes, to choose to be imperfect.

When someone is wrong, when their acts are cruel and brutal, call them on it, show them, help their victims, and if they violated an agreement or law with knowing intent, do not tolerate it. Enforce your laws and values, and don't allow the strong to abuse the weak. But force them to change? Take away choice, and someone will cease to do evil, and also cease to be capable of moral and independent thought. No better than a clockwork orange.

The Pashtun of Afghanistan and Pakistan practice Sharia Law, but I'm not aware the whole of Pakistan does.

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Monday, August 9, 2010 11:17 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Seems to me, that after the Independents lost the war, the Alliance left well enough alone, and those religious theocracies were kept in tact, wife killin' and arranged marriages, alike.

So much for castin' the light of civilization on the border planets.






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Monday, August 9, 2010 11:24 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Oops, sorry, I get you two confused...not sure why...in this case, I probably thought it was Wulf because he doesn't seem to want to learn about others, but obviously it holds just as well for you.

You're talking of the Taliban; I was talking of the PEOPLE of Afghanistan and Pakistan, the HISTORY of those places, the CULTURE. The Taliban doesn't represent them. The Taliban doesn't interpret Sharia law accurately. Yes, they are thugs andfanatics, but that doesn't change the need to understand them as best we can.

Understanding them is just as important as comprehending anyone else. It's as important that we know our enemies at least as much as we grasp our allies, and we have a tendency to do neither in this country. I think it has to do with our isolationism, but it's wrong.

There's so much more to be said about this, but I'll quit before I start ranting. Just to say it's mentalities such as yours and Dumbya's, who don't care enough to learn, who are responsible for an awful lot of wrong moves on our country's part.


Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off




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Monday, August 9, 2010 11:46 AM

BYTEMITE


Quote:

Originally posted by AURaptor:
Seems to me, that after the Independents lost the war, the Alliance left well enough alone, and those religious theocracies were kept in tact, wife killin' and arranged marriages, alike.

So much for castin' the light of civilization on the border planets.





Well, there's two possibilities I can think of. One is that the Alliance didn't care to try, which is false, we know they wanted to fix bad behaviour like this because of Miranda.

Two is that Miranda was the only way they could think of to fix it, and we all saw how that worked out. Once that failed, they were at a loss, and except for a force of Tohoku class cruisers they kept in place to keep the peace, they withdrew to the core to lick their wounds and fester resentment at the ungrateful rim. Even medical shipments to places like Paradiso, hit hard by Bowdens, are fairly rare, mostly because there's still lots of people in parliament who don't want to help those dirty rimmer Independents.

^Paraphrased from the Serenity RPG manual.

In any case, the fix might be worse than letting people find their way on their own. That's all I'm saying.

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Monday, August 9, 2010 11:48 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!



Real tough to learn about folks who end up shootin' ya to death....


10 Christian aid workers killed in Afghanistan mountains

Quote:



Posted on Aug 9, 2010 | by Staff
KABUL, Afghanistan (BP)--Ten workers affiliated with a Christian aid group were murdered in the rugged mountains of Afghanistan after providing eye care to people in a remote area of the country.

International Assistance Mission, an openly Christian charity, has operated in Afghanistan for 44 years, negotiating with the Soviets, the mujahedeen government and then the Taliban for permission to continue its work assisting people in need of care.

But on Aug. 5, only one member of a team survived an ambush by several men wielding guns. The Taliban claimed responsibility for the deaths of six Americans, one German, one Briton and two Afghans, though police have not ruled out an attack by thieves.

A spokesman for the Southern Baptist International Mission Board confirmed that no IMB personnel were involved.

The team, which included a 12th member, an Afghan, who earlier left the group to return home on his own, had set out for the remote Parun Valley of Nurestan province in three Land Rovers and then left their vehicles to trek 100 miles through the Hindu Kush mountains, The Washington Post reported.

Once they had completed their work, they were traveling back through snow and rain when they were attacked. The survivor, a driver named Saifullah, said the gunmen lined up the team members and began to execute them. Saifullah's life was spared after he shouted allegiance to Allah, The Post said.

"We are heartbroken by the loss of these heroic, generous people," Secretary of State Hillary Rodham Clinton said. "We condemn in the strongest possible terms this senseless act. We also condemn the Taliban's transparent attempt to justify the unjustifiable by making false accusations about their activities in Afghanistan."

The Taliban said the medical team was handing out Bibles written in Dari, but Dirk Frans, executive director of the aid organization, denied the claim.

"We're not here to proselytize, hand out Bibles or whatever," Frans said. "Our witness is in doing this work under extreme conditions, for people who otherwise have no chance for getting anything."






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Monday, August 9, 2010 12:07 PM

BYTEMITE


Understandable sentiment. Violence and hatred directed towards ones own people can seem incomprehensible, and I can figure how it might not be something you WANT to comprehend.

Still might be something you would NEED to comprehend, if you want to figure out a way to stop this sort of tragedy from happening.

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Monday, August 9, 2010 1:14 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

Originally posted by AURaptor:
Quote:

Originally posted by Niki2:

Wulf, they're HUMAN BEINGS!

(By the way, they don't cut the noses and ears off women.)



I'm not Wulf

And yes, they do.




The Taliban, the tribal views that did this to the young woman in the photo.... they don't exactly recognized state borders. The monsters who did this very well could have come from Pakistan or Afghanistan.




Or East Texas.



Or Wyoming.





AURaptor's Greatest Hits:

Friday, May 28, 2010 - 20:32 To AnthonyT:
Go fuck yourself.
On this matter, make no mistake. I want you to go fuck yourself long and hard, as well as anyone who agrees with you. I got no use for you.

Friday, May 28, 2010 - 18:26 To President Obama:
Mr. President, you're a god damn, mother fucking liar.
Fuck you, you cock sucking community activist piece of shit.
... go fuck yourself, Mr. President.


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Monday, August 9, 2010 1:16 PM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!



So, we should let community activists take care of the problem ?

Great.




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Monday, August 9, 2010 1:17 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Better quit learnin' about Americans, too, since about 45 Americans are murdered every day in this country.

I guess that makes us more than four times as bad as the Taliban, if it's a straight numbers game...

AURaptor's Greatest Hits:

Friday, May 28, 2010 - 20:32 To AnthonyT:
Go fuck yourself.
On this matter, make no mistake. I want you to go fuck yourself long and hard, as well as anyone who agrees with you. I got no use for you.

Friday, May 28, 2010 - 18:26 To President Obama:
Mr. President, you're a god damn, mother fucking liar.
Fuck you, you cock sucking community activist piece of shit.
... go fuck yourself, Mr. President.


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Monday, August 9, 2010 1:20 PM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!



That's the answer. Equivocate everything, and then nothing gets done.






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Monday, August 9, 2010 1:23 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Or just dismiss everything by saying it's not worthy of study, or that you don't want to learn anything new.

AURaptor's Greatest Hits:

Friday, May 28, 2010 - 20:32 To AnthonyT:
Go fuck yourself.
On this matter, make no mistake. I want you to go fuck yourself long and hard, as well as anyone who agrees with you. I got no use for you.

Friday, May 28, 2010 - 18:26 To President Obama:
Mr. President, you're a god damn, mother fucking liar.
Fuck you, you cock sucking community activist piece of shit.
... go fuck yourself, Mr. President.


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Monday, August 9, 2010 1:37 PM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Quote:

Originally posted by Kwicko:
Or just dismiss everything by saying it's not worthy of study, or that you don't want to learn anything new.



Ahh yes...the classic " know thy enemy " tactic.

Funny, but I noticed no such admiration of knowing the evil in the hearts and minds of the KKK or the NAZIs, when Newt Gingrich was speaker of the House....


Quote:

WASHINGTON (AP) -- Fired by Speaker Newt Gingrich as House
historian because she complained Nazi views weren't represented in
a Holocaust course, Christina Jeffrey said Tuesday that allegations
against her ``are slanderous and outrageous.''






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Monday, August 9, 2010 1:44 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Really? You're going with the "But NEWT..." play?

Wow, you ARE desperate!

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Monday, August 9, 2010 1:51 PM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!



No, you took that title long, long ago.




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Monday, August 9, 2010 7:01 PM

FREMDFIRMA



Lemme put it in a format Rappy here can understand.

In order to HURT the bastards, you have to understand them, in much the same fashion that in order to blow the supports out from under a bridge, you gotta know how that support system works in order to find the weak points.

Why waste our blood and treasure, waste the lives of our troops, going about it in such a halfassed fashion ?

Most of their foot soldiers are, like ours, young fools who got roped into it cause they didn't know any better, those can be stolen away with mere words, if you understand them well enough to do it - leaving the assholes with no one to carry OUT their intent, save themselves, and lots of angry people who don't like em a whole lot.

It's not that simple, of course, but the general concept is why waste one american bullet, one american life, that we do not have to ?

THAT, is what they wanna get through your thick head, about why this is important, Rappy.

-Frem

I do not serve the Blind God.

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Tuesday, August 10, 2010 5:48 AM

KPO

Sometimes you own the libs. Sometimes, the libs own you.


Quote:

You want to waste time in understanding folks who continue to live with values from before the dark ages, cutting off the noses and ears of women for some nonsensical perceived crime they committed against their families' honor...


Okay, so you've got this image of Pakistan, and it's quite a damning one. So what would be your way of dealing with the country, if you were president?

It's not personal. It's just war.

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Tuesday, August 10, 2010 6:25 AM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

Originally posted by AURaptor:

Real tough to learn about folks who end up shootin' ya to death....


10 Christian aid workers killed in Afghanistan mountains





(A) That wasn't Pakistan, so has nothing to do with the conversation. Contrary to what you believe, they really aren't exactly the same.

(B) Not to sound harsh, but they DID know where they were, right? I mean, you go into a war zone in areas run by fundamentalist whackos, and start proselytizing, you kind of know what you're getting into. It's like blaming a hurricane for killing a bunch of guys who tried to sail into it on a Hobie Cat. You go into this kind of work with an assumed risk, and you bear the personal responsibility for what happens to you.

I mean, you wouldn't want the big gubmint going around telling folks they couldn't do this kind of thing, right? And you wouldn't want to spend MY hard-earned money to bail them out when it all goes south, right?

AURaptor's Greatest Hits:

Friday, May 28, 2010 - 20:32 To AnthonyT:
Go fuck yourself.
On this matter, make no mistake. I want you to go fuck yourself long and hard, as well as anyone who agrees with you. I got no use for you.

Friday, May 28, 2010 - 18:26 To President Obama:
Mr. President, you're a god damn, mother fucking liar.
Fuck you, you cock sucking community activist piece of shit.
... go fuck yourself, Mr. President.


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Wednesday, August 11, 2010 4:35 AM

KPO

Sometimes you own the libs. Sometimes, the libs own you.


Come on Auraptor, I'm still waiting to hear your thoughts on what U.S policy towards Pakistan should be, based on your view of that country.

It's not personal. It's just war.

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Wednesday, August 11, 2010 5:41 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


As a counter to the "poor Pakistan" tone of the article: the Pakistani ISS did everything they could to fund and support the Taliban in Afghanistan, just as the Saudis supported the Wahabi in Afghanistan. And, to be quite blunt, so did we.

You reap what you sow. If you sow backwardism and corruption in another country (or your own. We have our own religious in the USA who believe the theory of relativity is a left-wing conspiracy!) it WILL come and bite you.

So we all got bit. Whining and crying about it, as Pakistan does, is just so much crocodile tears. They need to clean their own government of corruption (Just as we need to clean up ours) ... get it to tackle problems like the dams that failed this last monsoon season, and stop acting like a tyranny/ monarchy.

I fail to see how I should feel sorry for the government there, or support it. We should treat Pakistan and Israel the same, just as we should treat ANY nation: most favored trade status and aid IF your government is clean and supports human rights. If not, then the $$ goes to development NGOs and directly to the people, and screw the governments. Hell, what happened to the billions is aid we already gave Pakistan? Because IF the government HAD BEEN DOING ITS JOB, this wouldn't have happened.

Quote:

Pakistan floods could give Taliban time to regroup
By NAHAL TOOSI, Associated Press Writer Nahal Toosi, Associated Press Writer – 9 mins ago

ISLAMABAD – The floods ravaging Pakistan are generating fears that Taliban insurgents could regroup amid the chaos and destruction. The country's already anemic economy is expected to weaken, increasing the poverty that is a factor in the militancy wracking the country. One of the hardest hit regions is the northwest, the heartland of the Pakistan Taliban and other insurgent groups. Over the last two years, the army has carried out several offensives against militants there. The U.S. has welcomed the efforts — and launched drone strikes of its own — because of the threat the insurgents pose to Western troops across the border in Afghanistan.

Now, thousands of those Pakistani soldiers have been tasked with flood relief and will likely be crucial in rebuilding bridges and roads once the worst floods in Pakistan's history have receded. Helicopters that once backed up troops in the tribal regions may have to be dispatched for flood relief.


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Wednesday, August 11, 2010 6:06 AM

WULFENSTAR

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg


Im wondering why we care about the Middle East at all.

We have enough problems of our own.

Yes, you all know Im an isolationist.

And dont confuse me with any one else again, please.

its insulting and far off the mark.

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Wednesday, August 11, 2010 6:10 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Two words: oil and Israel.

Israel because our policy-makers have an unholy alliance with USA-based Zionists like the neocons in the Bush administration (Perle, Wulfowitz) and Lieberman.

Oil speaks for itself. It's a HUGE money-maker for oil companies, and so we send our soldiers to obtain oil at discount prices for our corporations. (If the corporations had to PAY for equivalent security services, you can bet your sweet bottom line they wouldn't be making obscene profits. But that IS the trick to profit-making: keep the rewards for yourself and shift the costs elsewhere. Overall, its MUCH cheaper to buy politicians than it is to pay your own expenses!)

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Wednesday, August 11, 2010 6:16 AM

WULFENSTAR

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg


We can produce our own oil, until we find a better source.

We have no stake in Israel, and should no longer support either side.

As to the corporations: They are both good and evil.

Good in that they produce things, and create jobs.

Bad in that some are so powerful, they are able to influence government.


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Wednesday, August 11, 2010 10:54 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Sig, I didn't see the article as "poor Pakistan". I saw it as an explanation of how the PAKISTANIS feel and what THEY believe, not "fact". Just as some of us here have shown beliefs that have nothing to do with reality, Pakistanis have erroneous and prejudicial beliefs colored by history and left over from previous conflicts. That doesn't make them "poor", it's just an effort to understand how they come at the situation.

Dammit WulfWind, I keep telling you: There IS NO "OUR OIL"! Oil is sold on the open market, producing oil in the US doesn't change anything except to put more oil on the market. "We" do not "own" it, okay?? If we want to be free of OPEC, etc., we need to get OFF oil, not just drill for "our" own.


Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off




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Wednesday, August 11, 2010 1:00 PM

FREMDFIRMA



Umm, lest you forget - we are Treaty-bound, and mind you a signed Treaty carries equal weight to the Constitution itself... to supply Israels petroleum requirements for nothing, out of our own pockets, even if we wind up short for it.

Did you know that by law the US guarantees israel's oil supply - no matter what?
http://wakeupfromyourslumber.com/node/4504

Which led to this...

U.S. checking possibility of pumping oil from northern Iraq to Haifa, via Jordan
http://www.haaretz.com/print-edition/news/u-s-checking-possibility-of-
pumping-oil-from-northern-iraq-to-haifa-via-jordan-1.98134


Which lead to Iraqis blowing up that fucking pipeline every chance they got, faster than we could lay it down, cause they *would* really rather die than get sucked dry by the vampire that is Israel.

And yanno, I'd damn sure like their fucking teeth out of OUR neck, too!

-Frem

I do not serve the Blind God.

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Wednesday, August 11, 2010 1:07 PM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Brrrrr...


Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off




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Wednesday, August 11, 2010 5:07 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Quote:

Sig, I didn't see the article as "poor Pakistan". I saw it as an explanation of how the PAKISTANIS feel and what THEY believe, not "fact". Just as some of us here have shown beliefs that have nothing to do with reality, Pakistanis have erroneous and prejudicial beliefs colored by history and left over from previous conflicts. That doesn't make them "poor", it's just an effort to understand how they come at the situation.
I guess I have as little sympathy for Pakistani self-justification as I do for our own.

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Wednesday, August 11, 2010 5:24 PM

DICKCHENEY


I kill what I don't understand.

I don't understand what my heart is for.



Go Fuck Yourself!

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Wednesday, August 11, 2010 6:24 PM

BYTEMITE


Quote:

We can produce our own oil, until we find a better source.


...Ehm, not really... Most of the companies who would be working here to drill that oil are international based, not home grown, meaning it probably would get sold elsewhere first.

Second, there's maybe three potential places we have any degree of oil; first in Alaska, second in the gulf, third in Texas and parts of the south. There might also be some oil shale here in Utah, but no one knows quite how to get it out of the shale to refine it.

Oil really isn't distributed evenly around the globe despite some outdated twenty year old discredited Russian theories on the matter. Meaning the US doesn't have much oil, for some reason our paleoclimate conditions produced a lot of natural gas instead.

Now, we might be able to convert our engines to work on natural gas, and you could perfectly well argue that we would be supplying and producing our own fuel then. But producing our own oil> Nah. We don't have the infrastucture OR the resources.

But otherwise, I agree that we don't really have any business interfering in the Middle East. I'm just fine being isolationist. It makes for a stable economy.

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Friday, August 13, 2010 3:42 AM

KPO

Sometimes you own the libs. Sometimes, the libs own you.


So no response from Auraptor. I think he just saw an opportunity with this thread to pivot onto a pro Islam-hysteria talking point...

As for Pakistan, it is important, not because it has oil (it doesn't) but because it actually IS an epicentre of world terrorism, and it's key to the stability (or not) of Afghanistan. Plus it has a very volatile, nuclear rivalry with India.

I saw recently India not giving any aid to Pakistan (yet) in the wake of that country's floods. So it seems like reconciliation may still be some way off.

It's not personal. It's just war.

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Friday, August 13, 2010 4:25 AM

BYTEMITE


One thing the article is right about, the U.S. consistently sides with India despite considering Pakistan an "ally," and we mess around in the Pakistan politics in away that's very detrimental to the average citizen (not even necessarily the Pashtun tribal group). That's actually a valid complaint.

DT says that we're HOPING to stir up another India Pakistan war, and hoping China gets dragged into it.

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Friday, April 16, 2021 2:27 PM

JAYNEZTOWN


Pakistan = islamic SHITHOLE COUNTRIES

French citizens advised to leave the jihaidst Shithole country of Pakistan, a place where Jihads pray to a camel jacking pedophile a perverted terrorist who married a 6 yr old, a pedophile named Moohammad
France tells its citizens to Run / Flee as protests worsen

https://www.brecorder.com/news/40084682/amid-threats-french-embassy-ad
vises-citizens-to-leave-pakistan


http://www.xinhuanet.com/english/2021-04/15/c_139882860.htm

Pakistan: Deadly anti-French protests escalate
Roads were cut off in several Pakistani cities overnight

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Tuesday, August 13, 2024 6:46 AM

JAYNEZTOWN


a plot in April wait or doing nothing...May...June...
July...
...August...


Justice Dept. Charges Pakistani Man in Alleged Plot to Kill U.S. Leaders
https://www.nytimes.com/2024/08/06/us/politics/justice-dept-assassinat
ion.html


Who is Khalid Sheikh Mohammed?
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-13697077/who-khalid-sheikh-mo
hammed-mastermind-9-11-terrorism.html

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