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Originally posted by Jongsstraw:
If we can have Ahmadinejad already visiting the WTC site, what's the problem with a Muslim Center being there? Can it get any "worse" in terms of "terrorist-leaning" Muslims than having Ahmadinejhad strolling around the place? Was that not a "triumphant event" for them already, if they wanted to interpret it as such? Nothing will change if it is built there, and life will go on for everyone as normal I'm sure. We'll probaly never hear about the place again. Meanwhile, America comes off to the rest of the 1 billion Muslims looking racist and intolerant the more this site is protested.

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Originally posted by AgentRouka:
Did "Buddhism" show enough outrage? Did "Christianity"? "Paganism"?

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This conflation of two different things is very irrational and does nothing to actually protect people, all it does is keep fear levels high by inflating the number of enemies from several specific small groups to one large monolith of a group.

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Originally posted by AURaptor:

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Originally posted by Jongsstraw:
If we can have Ahmadinejad already visiting the WTC site, what's the problem with a Muslim Center being there? Can it get any "worse" in terms of "terrorist-leaning" Muslims than having Ahmadinejhad strolling around the place? Was that not a "triumphant event" for them already, if they wanted to interpret it as such? Nothing will change if it is built there, and life will go on for everyone as normal I'm sure. We'll probaly never hear about the place again. Meanwhile, America comes off to the rest of the 1 billion Muslims looking racist and intolerant the more this site is protested.

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I have no idea where you're even trying to go w/ this Ahmadinejhad interjection into the story.

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And that's the point. The mosque at Ground Zero would be a permanent reminder to all Islam of it's victory over America. A perpetual black eye, and symbol of " Yeah, we did this, and now we're building here too "

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Originally posted by Kwicko:

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Originally posted by AURaptor:
It's not " intolerance ". And frankly, I could care less what they think.

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CRASSIC!

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There are two main reasons this is an issue. " Islam " didn't show , to most here in the US, near enough outrage & sorrow over the attacks. Instead, we saw celebrating and cheering in the streets.

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Where in the U.S. was there celebrating and cheering in the streets on 9/11?

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Also, Imam Rauf's own words, that we were " complicit " , and that OBL was " made in America ", don't help matters one bit.

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Certainly you'll support us in protesting GlenBeck's little nazi rally at the Lincoln Memorial on the anniversary of MLK's "I Have A Dream" speech, right? After all, it's just too soon, and the wounds of MLK's death are still too raw. And, of course, Beck has said those exact same things, damn near word for word, about 9/11 and OBL.

So has Ron Paul. Will all the tea partiers here join us in shouting down Dr. Paul's intolerance?

Didn't think so. ;)

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Word is, even in this economy, construction workers are vowing to not build this mosque at that site.

And that IS the main issue, not that it's a new mosque.

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You keep changing your "main" issue. One minute it's hallowed ground, the next it's that Muslims weren't quite contrite enough (for you, anyway) after 9/11, and now it's about construction workers?

Some construction workers won't bid on the project. Others will. As you pointed out about Saudi Arabia's funding FauxNews, it's all about the money at the end of the day, and construction workers have to eat, too.


AURaptor's Greatest Hits:

Friday, May 28, 2010 - 20:32 To AnthonyT:
Go fuck yourself.
On this matter, make no mistake. I want you to go fuck yourself long and hard, as well as anyone who agrees with you. I got no use for you.

Friday, May 28, 2010 - 18:26 To President Obama:
Mr. President, you're a god damn, mother fucking liar.
Fuck you, you cock sucking community activist piece of shit.
... go fuck yourself, Mr. President.

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Originally posted by Jongsstraw:

Nothing of a permanent reminder at all, it'll just be another building like all the others in NYC.

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If you want to hand out "black eye symbols", hang one up for me in front of the FBI Building. They got reports of Muslim men taking flying lessons, but not learning how to land. These FBI guys are supposed to be smart, right, the best and brightest we have? Jeeez, a 6-year old with a Jr. Capt. Crunch Detective Ring could have put that case together, and perhaps thwarted the 9/11 attacks in the first place.

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Originally posted by pennausamike:
A Holocaust Survivor's View on Islam

A man, whose family was German aristocracy prior to World War II, owned a number of large industries and estates.
When asked how many German people were true Nazis, the answer he gave can guide our attitude toward fanaticism.
'Very few people were true Nazis,' he said,
'but many enjoyed the return of German pride, and many more were too busy to care.
I was one of those who just thought the Nazis were a bunch of fools.
So, the majority just sat back and let it all happen.
Then, before we knew it, they owned us, and we had lost control,
and the end of the world had come.
My family lost everything.
I ended up in a concentration camp and the Allies destroyed my factories.'

We are told again and again by 'experts' and 'talking heads' that Islam is the religion of peace
and that the vast majority of Muslims just want to live in peace.
Although this unqualified assertion may be true, it is entirely irrelevant. It is meaningless fluff, meant to make us feel better, and meant to somehow diminish the specter of fanatics rampaging across the globe in the name of Islam.
The fact is that the fanatics rule Islam at this moment in history. It is the fanatics who march... It is the fanatics who wage any one of 50 shooting wars worldwide. It is the fanatics who systematically slaughter Christian or tribal groups throughout Africa and are gradually taking over the entire continent in an Islamic wave. It is the fanatics who bomb, behead, murder, or honor-kill. It is the fanatics who take over mosque after mosque. It is the fanatics who zealously spread the stoning and hanging of rape victims and homosexuals. It is the fanatics who teach their young to kill and to become suicide bombers.

The hard, quantifiable fact is that the peaceful majority, the 'silent majority,' is cowed and extraneous.

Communist Russia was comprised of Russians who just wanted to live in peace, yet the Russian Communists were responsible for the murder of about 20 million people. The peaceful majority were irrelevant.

China's huge population was peaceful as well, but Chinese Communists managed to kill a staggering 70 million people.
The peaceful majority were irrelevant.

The average Japanese individual prior to World War II was not a warmongering sadist. Yet, Japan murdered and slaughtered its way across South East Asia in an orgy of killing that included the systematic murder of 12 million Chinese civilians; most killed by sword, shovel, and bayonet.
The peaceful majority were irrelevant.

And who can forget Rwanda, which collapsed into butchery. Could it not be said that the majority of Rwandans were 'peace loving'?
The peaceful majority were irrelevant.

History lessons are often incredibly simple and blunt, yet for all our powers of reason, we often miss the most basic and uncomplicated of points:
Peace-loving Muslims have been made irrelevant by their silence.
Peace-loving Muslims will become our enemy if they don't speak up, because like my friend from Germany, they will awaken one day and find that the fanatics own them, and the end of their world will have begun.

Peace-loving Germans, Japanese, Chinese, Russians, Rwandans, Serbs, Afghans, Iraqis, Palestinians, Somalis, Nigerians, Algerians, and many others have died because the peaceful majority did not speak up until it was too late.

As for us who watch it all unfold, we must pay attention to the only group that counts -- the fanatics who threaten our way of life.
Lastly, anyone who doubts that the issue is serious and just deletes this email without sending it on is contributing to the passiveness that allows the problems to expand. So, extend yourself a bit and send this on and on and on! Let us hope that thousands, world-wide, read this and think about it, and send it on - before it's too late.

Emanuel Tanay, M.D. 2980 Provincial St. Ann Arbor , MI 48104

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Originally posted by AURaptor:

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Originally posted by Jongsstraw:

Nothing of a permanent reminder at all, it'll just be another building like all the others in NYC.

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You are in a excruciating tiny minority of those who think that.

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, and his words really don't paint him as being the kindly, moderate bridge builder

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Originally posted by Jongsstraw:
You've made your points intelligently, and I appreciate the time you took to do that. However, I'm sticking to my position on this. I believe American Muslims have earned our respect and trust. They've handled the pressure and reality of being American Muslims in a post 9/11 America quite well for almost a decade, and it couldn't have been too easy for them. If they want this, they can have this.

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The supposed imam of the place, Feisal Abdul Rauf, is on record as saying various shady and creepy things about the original atrocity. Shortly after 9/11, he told 60 Minutes, "I wouldn't say that the United States deserved what happened, but the United States policies were an accessory to the crime that happened." He added, "In the most direct sense, Osama Bin Laden is made in the USA." More recently, he has declined to identify the racist and totalitarian Hamas party as being guilty of the much less severe designation of terrorist. We are all familiar by now with the peddlers of such distortions and euphemisms and evasions, many of them repeated by half-baked secular and Christian spokesmen. A widespread cultural cringe impels many people to the half-belief that it's better to accommodate "moderates" like Rauf as a means of diluting the challenge of the real thing. So for the sake of peace and quiet, why not have Comedy Central censor itself or the entire U.S. press refuse to show the Danish cartoons?

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Originally posted by Riverlove:
This Imam is now taking his anti-American views abroad and telling Islamic countries that America is racist and intolerant.

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Originally posted by Fremdfirma:

If the shoe fits...

-Frem

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Certainly you'll support us in protesting GlenBeck's little nazi rally at the Lincoln Memorial on the anniversary of MLK's "I Have A Dream" speech, right? After all, it's just too soon, and the wounds of MLK's death are still too raw. And, of course, Beck has said those exact same things, damn near word for word, about 9/11 and OBL.

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Originally posted by Niki2:
As to Beck and the “Dream” speech, if you don’t think he chose that day specifically for the reason that it was the day of that speech, you’re deluding yourself. It’s a clear message; and it’s incredibly sad to see it used to gather some of the most intolerant and racist among us. The Tea Party wasn’t all racist and still isn’t, but their actions and words of late have shown there are an awful lot of them within that Party.

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Originally posted by Riverlove:
Al Sharpton and the NAACP are planning counter demonstrations to Beck's legal and permitted rally. Beck's going to have folks from all walks of life, representing all colors and creeds on stage there. But the NAACP and Sharpton are already outraged and against everything already....all before anyone has said one word. Where's the "tolerance" there, or is their tolerance reserved only for Muslims building a mosque near the WTC site? Funny how tolerance is so darn complicated. So complicated it seems that only Liberals know how it works.

http://www.stoptheaclu.com/2010/08/18/democrats-protest-glenn-beck-ral
ly-spot-but-support-ground-zero-mosque/


Alveda King will be speaking as a guest at Beck's rally :

http://dailycaller.com/2010/08/23/alveda-king-speaks-on-whether-her-un
cle-martin-luther-king-jr-would-stand-with-glenn-beck-or-naacp-on-aug-28/

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Originally posted by Riverlove:

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Originally posted by Niki2:
As to Beck and the “Dream” speech, if you don’t think he chose that day specifically for the reason that it was the day of that speech, you’re deluding yourself. It’s a clear message; and it’s incredibly sad to see it used to gather some of the most intolerant and racist among us. The Tea Party wasn’t all racist and still isn’t, but their actions and words of late have shown there are an awful lot of them within that Party.

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Fair enough, your're entitled to your opinions. But I challenge you to actually watch the event, or at least part of the event, rather than listen to some Liberal outlet's "summary" of the event. Will you do that?

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Also, you're trying to make a point above that Beck's use of MLK's Dream Speech location and anniversay date is "insensitive" and even insulting to the memory of Dr. King. We who oppose the 9/11 mosque site feel the same way on that issue as you do on this.

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Originally posted by Kwicko:

In your rant about "tolerance", did you notice the irony of citing a website called "stop the ACLU"? The ACLU is all about tolerance, yet the right would love to kill every single member.

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Also, you claim that Beck's protest is legal and permitted, yet you neglect to mention that the counterprotest is legal and permitted as well. And your general tone seems to be that you'd like to see it quashed or denied. You don't come across as being particularly "tolerant" of opposing points of view.

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Originally posted by Kwicko:
People on the right are still trying to say that this community center should be stopped or relocated because "it's insensitive".

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Tell me, would you support Rush Limbaugh's broadcasts being stopped or taken off the air ("relocated") if the Lefties started complaining that he is "insensitive"? Or would you just tell us to grow up and get over it?

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Also, you're trying to make a point above that Beck's use of MLK's Dream Speech location and anniversay date is "insensitive" and even insulting to the memory of Dr. King. We who oppose the 9/11 mosque site feel the same way on that issue as you do on this. Interesting, because I might agree with you on that point.

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My problem with the mosque is that it seems to be PURPOSEFULLY USING it's location (and anniversary if Auraptor's sources are to be believed) as a platform to make a statement.

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But again, so what? If it's using its anniversary to "make a statement", then it is, as you say, only for a day. So what's the big deal?

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But again, IT IS NOT A MOSQUE. We all know what mosques look like, and this ain't it:

Artist's rendering of planned Cordoba COMMUNITY CENTER

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"The project's sponsors explained that the original name of the center was meant to invoke 8th–11th century Córdoba, which they call a model of peaceful coexistence between Muslims, Christians, and Jews." That's the statement they intended to make via the name. How does that equate to your comparison?

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By the way, there likely WILL BE large Muslim celebrations this September 11th. This has nothing to do with the anniversary of 9/11; Ramadan ends this year on September 10th.

You heard it here first.

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Why did you choose this site so close to Ground Zero?

We were always close to the World Trade Center. Imam Feisal Abdul Rauf has been the Imam of a mosque twelve blocks from the Twin Towers for the last 27 years.

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Originally posted by kpo:
I think it's quite like if this guy Rauf and the Cordoba initiative decided to hand out fliers about Cordoba's history of Islamic greatness and tolerance - at the funerals of Western suicide bomber victims. It's tasteless and insensitive to use such venues as a platform. Yet there's an argument that such a venue is exactly where Rauf's message of reconciliation and understanding needs to be heard the most - isn't there?

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I certainly think the location was a considerable, if not the deciding, factor.

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Rather I see it as what they said; a way to counter the impression of Muslims as responsible for, or at the very least, connected to, 9/11 and hopefully provide facilities for those nearby (Muslim and others) which would help sponsor understanding.

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Sometimes recalling a more tolerant era in Muslim history is just, y'know, hopeful, just the proper context for these recent fundamentalist atrocities.

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Originally posted by kpo:
I'm saying there's a big spotlight on ground zero, and it's tacky for groups with a political message and agenda to try and put themselves in that spotlight.

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