REAL WORLD EVENT DISCUSSIONS

Another 'Religion of Peace' moment, brought to you by.....yep, ISLAM!

POSTED BY: AURAPTOR
UPDATED: Sunday, May 28, 2023 11:47
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Wednesday, August 25, 2010 1:02 PM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Quote:
Corrupted religious interpretation is merely a tool, kinda like political parties.
The definitive statement about this whole thing, Trader, thank you. Whatever a religion is BEGUN as, it's humans who interpret it, and that's where it goes wrong, almost invariably, at some time and in some way.

In response to your question about Islam and peacefulness, I hunted around a bit and found some history on that:
Quote:
From the oasis cities of Makkah and Madinah in the Arabian desert, the message of Islam went forth with electrifying speed. Within half a century of the Prophet's death, Islam had spread to three continents. Islam is not, as some imagine in the West, a religion of the sword nor did it spread primarily by means of war. It was only within Arabia, where a crude form of idolatry was rampant, that Islam was propagated by warring against those tribes which did not accept the message of God--whereas Christians and Jews were not forced to convert. Outside of Arabia also the vast lands conquered by the Arab armies in a short period became Muslim not by force of the sword but by the appeal of the new religion. It was faith in One God and emphasis upon His Mercy that brought vast numbers of people into the fold of Islam. The new religion did not coerce people to convert. Many continued to remain Jews and Christians and to this day important communities of the followers of these faiths are found in Muslim lands.

During later centuries the Turks embraced Islam peacefully as did a large number of the people of the Indian subcontinent and the Malay-speaking world. In Africa also, Islam has spread during the past two centuries even under the mighty power of European colonial rulers.
Much more of Islamic history at http://www.barkati.net/english/
Quote:
Upon the death of the Prophet, Abu Bakr, the friend of the Prophet and the first adult male to embrace Islam, became caliph. Abu Bakr ruled for two years to be succeeded by 'Umar who was caliph for a decade and during whose rule Islam spread extensively east and west. It was 'Umar who marched on foot at the end of the Muslim army into Jerusalem and ordered the protection of Christian sites.

The Abbasids, who succeeded the Umayyads, shifted the capital to Baghdad which soon developed into an incomparable center of learning and culture as well as the administrative and political heart of a vast world. They ruled for over 500 years but gradually their power waned and they remained only symbolic rulers bestowing legitimacy upon various sultans and princes who wielded actual military power. The Abbasid caliphate was finally abolished when Hulagu, the Mongol ruler, captured Baghdad in 1258, destroying much of the city including its incomparable libraries.

When the Abbasids captured Damascus, one of the Umayyad princes escaped and made the long journey from there to Spain to found Umayyad rule there, thus beginning the golden age of Islam in Spain. Cordoba was established as the capital and soon became Europe's greatest city not only in population but from the point of view of its cultural and intellectual life. The Umayyads ruled over two centuries until they weakened and were replaced by local rulers.

Meanwhile in North Africa, various local dynasties held sway until two powerful Berber dynasties succeeded in uniting much of North Africa and also Spain in the 12th and 13th centuries. After them this area was ruled once again by local dynasties such as the Sharifids of Morocco who still rule in that country. As for Spain itself, Muslim power continued to wane until the last Muslim dynasty was defeated in Granada in 1492 thus bringing nearly eight hundred years of Muslim rule in Spain to an end.

While the Ottomans were concerned mostly with the western front of their empire, to the east in Persia a new dynasty called the Safavids came to power in 1502. The Safavids established a powerful state of their own which flourished for over two centuries and became known for the flowering of the arts. Their capital, Isfahan, became one of the most beautiful cities with its blue tiled mosques and exquisite houses. The Afghan invasion of 1736 put an end to Safavid rule and prepared the independence of Afghanistan which occurred formally in the 19th century. Persia itself fell into turmoil until Nader Shah, the last Oriental conqueror, reunited the country and even conquered India.

As for India, Islam entered into the land east of the Indus River peacefully. Gradually Muslims gained political power beginning in the early 13th century. But this period which marked the expansion of both Islam and Islamic culture came to an end with the conquest of much of India in 1526 by Babur, one of the Timurid princes.

As far as Africa is concerned, Islam entered into East Africa at the very beginning of the Islamic period but remained confined to the coast for some time, only the Sudan and Somaliland becoming gradually both Arabized and Islamized.
Sections copied from http://www.muslimbridges.org/index.php?option=com_content&view=article
&id=235:brief-history-the-spread-of-islam&catid=25:spread-of-islam&Itemid=105

Now, either or both of these could be propaganda, I can't speak to this. But it's what a search of Islamic history showed as having to do with peacefulness and Islam...it appears to me as if quite a bit of the Muslim faith involved peaceful conversion and a high degree of civilization.

It's interesting to look at how long Islam has been around and to realize that, at just 200+ years, we so quickly think we know everything about it. I think one could study the subject for an awfully long time to begin to understand it, as is true of all religions that have been around for centuries.


Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off



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Wednesday, August 25, 2010 1:09 PM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Anthony, that is an amazingly cogent book report...on the Bible. You nailed every point! Was that sneakily deliberate, or did you not intend it? If it was deliberate, how come I'm the only one who picked up on it?


Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off



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Wednesday, August 25, 2010 1:14 PM

MINCINGBEAST


kane, stop supporting me in public; i'd rather have the support of NAMBLA. i'll get high with you, but i shall not agree with you, ever.

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Wednesday, August 25, 2010 1:16 PM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important


"it appears to me as if quite a bit of the Muslim faith involved peaceful conversion and a high degree of civilization."

Hello,

Well, it pretty much parallels the experience of other major monotheisms.

The Roman Empire converted to a monotheistic religion, which flipped the belief system of most of the known world, and without 'conquest by the sword.'

Most monotheistic religions were prepared to tolerate similar monotheistic religions, while butchering 'paganistic idol-worshipping barbarians' wherever they could be found.

And it seems most monotheistic religions have at some point warred with themselves over the true nature of their belief system, variously calling one flavor or another an illigitimate version and persecuting its followers. This seems to ebb and flow through the ages.

The report card of most major monotheisms are pretty similar, from where I stand.

--Anthony

Due to the use of Naomi 3.3.2 Beta web filtering, the following people may need to private-message me if they wish to contact me: Auraptor, Kaneman, Piratenews. I apologize for the inconvenience.

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Wednesday, August 25, 2010 1:20 PM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important


"Anthony, that is an amazingly cogent book report...on the Bible. You nailed every point! Was that sneakily deliberate, or did you not intend it? If it was deliberate, how come I'm the only one who picked up on it?"

Hello,

It's no accident, Niki, and it is deliberate only because it is necessary.

The Quran didn't spring up from the aether, but is rather built upon the foundation of Christianity, which is built on the foundation of Judaism.

If the book report reads similarly, it's because Judaism, Christianity, and Islam are just three variations of the same story, like a Hollywood hack just kept revving out sequels and re-imaginings to make a buck.

ETA: This is basically how it goes. Jews - We believe in God. Christians - We believe in God + Jesus. Muslims - We believe in God + Jesus + Mohammed. Each one just adds a new chapter to the story while accepting the previous chapters whole, sometimes with minor edits or revisions.

--Anthony

Due to the use of Naomi 3.3.2 Beta web filtering, the following people may need to private-message me if they wish to contact me: Auraptor, Kaneman, Piratenews. I apologize for the inconvenience.

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Wednesday, August 25, 2010 1:21 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:
Originally posted by TheHappyTrader:
Huh, interesting. Oh and I wasn't calling you out or anything, was just getting sick of the all the "yeah but christian's are worse" arguments. Thanks :)


NOT "worse". Just not really any different.

No worries; I didn't think you were "calling me out", or didn't have a problem with it if you were. It's allowed. :)

My entire point has been that what we seem awfully quick to blame on the RELIGION of Islam, we seem awfully quick to point out as the acts of INDIVIDUALS when those same acts are done by non-Muslims.

I pointed out a few days ago that Glen Back AND Ron Paul have both made almost word-for-word the exact same statements that have gotten Imam Rauf branded as a "terrorist" and "radical" (the idea that the U.S. played a role in the policies and events that led up to 9/11). I was responded to with things like "Yeah, but it's different, because HE'S A MUSLIM!"

So we as a nation seem to believe in freedom of religion, and freedom of speech... unless it's a *Muslim* trying to exercise those rights we allegedly hold to be self-evident and unalienable. ;)

Quote:

Maybe Islam isn't so peaceful after all, but I'll wait until I've done personal research into it before committing to that opinion.

Edit: peaceful origins or no, it's still people responsible, regardless


Yes indeed.

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Wednesday, August 25, 2010 1:24 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:
Originally posted by Niki2:
Anthony, that is an amazingly cogent book report...on the Bible. You nailed every point! Was that sneakily deliberate, or did you not intend it? If it was deliberate, how come I'm the only one who picked up on it?



Because the rest of us were biting our tongues, waiting for someone to wander in and take the bait. ;)



AURaptor's Greatest Hits:

Friday, May 28, 2010 - 20:32 To AnthonyT:
Go fuck yourself.
On this matter, make no mistake. I want you to go fuck yourself long and hard, as well as anyone who agrees with you. I got no use for you.

Friday, May 28, 2010 - 18:26 To President Obama:
Mr. President, you're a god damn, mother fucking liar.
Fuck you, you cock sucking community activist piece of shit.
... go fuck yourself, Mr. President.

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Wednesday, August 25, 2010 1:31 PM

KANEMAN


Quote:
Originally posted by mincingbeast:
kane, stop supporting me in public; i'd rather have the support of NAMBLA. i'll get high with you, but i shall not agree with you, ever.


Too late. I am forever your anti-evil minion. By definition we shall agree or disagree not to agree to disagree with the disagree-ers. Otherwise YOU are evil and I am a god...We can't have that. Can we? If you can't agree with me then that leaves you disagreeing with the agreeable, which we have both agreed is EVIL. Therefore, we must both agree with each-other in fear of being Evil..Mince, I like being an asshole but do not want to be evil. What do I do?

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Wednesday, August 25, 2010 1:45 PM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Ahh Anthony, I see. And I agree. And that's something that has always made me shake my head; all three religions are so close, even linked by family blood, yet... y'know?

It speaks to the weirdness of our little species and our need to hate and fear "the other"...
Quote:
I pointed out a few days ago that Glen Back AND Ron Paul have both made almost word-for-word the exact same statements that have gotten Imam Rauf branded as a "terrorist" and "radical" (the idea that the U.S. played a role in the policies and events that led up to 9/11). I was responded to with things like "Yeah, but it's different, because HE'S A MUSLIM!"
That one made me frown, too...hasn't everyone at this point heard and/or accepted that our bullying tactics around the world helped create the hatred that led in part to 9/11? I thought that was kind of accepted, right back from when it HAPPENED!

I wouldn't be at all surprised to learn that Ron Paul had said it--Beck is more surprising, but what's not at ALL surprising is that they should say it, no problem, but a Muslim say it: TERRORIST! Kinda like "I can beat my wife, but don't you dare touch her!"

Strange little species...


Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off



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Wednesday, August 25, 2010 1:52 PM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important


"I wouldn't be at all surprised to learn that Ron Paul had said it"

Hello,

Not only did Ron Paul say it during the 2008 election run, but he got yelled at by the Giuliani for it if memory serves.

He had a cogent defense for his opinion, though: The CIA said it first in their own evaluation of 9/11.

I believe the exact phrase was 'blowback.' As in, 'we are experiencing blowback for our actions around the globe.'


--Anthony

Due to the use of Naomi 3.3.2 Beta web filtering, the following people may need to private-message me if they wish to contact me: Auraptor, Kaneman, Piratenews. I apologize for the inconvenience.

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Wednesday, August 25, 2010 1:53 PM

STORYMARK


Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko:
Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:


Actually, some are denying the existence of Muslim extremists, every time they try to equate such evil to Christian "extremists".


Prove it, or withdraw that ridiculous accusation. Show me where ANYONE has denied the existence of Muslim extremists.

AURaptor's Greatest Hits:

Friday, May 28, 2010 - 20:32 To AnthonyT:
Go fuck yourself.
On this matter, make no mistake. I want you to go fuck yourself long and hard, as well as anyone who agrees with you. I got no use for you.

Friday, May 28, 2010 - 18:26 To President Obama:
Mr. President, you're a god damn, mother fucking liar.
Fuck you, you cock sucking community activist piece of shit.
... go fuck yourself, Mr. President.


Already asked him - but somehow I'm wholly unsurprised the ingrate is incapable of even a tiny shred of honesty.

"I thoroughly disapprove of duels. If a man should challenge me, I would take him kindly and forgivingly by the hand and lead him to a quiet place and kill him."

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Wednesday, August 25, 2010 2:02 PM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important


Hello Niki,

I feel I should make it clear here that despite my bizzarre opinion of Christianity, I am a Christian. I believe in God and in Jesus. I try to be eyes-open about it, and accept that the mysteries and abominations and contradictions exist, rather than plugging my ears and saying, "La La La!"

I have limited faith in the Bible as an accurate telling of God's message, as I consider it the product of a 2,000 year game of 'Telephone' conducted by people with limited wisdom, and who had agendas both selfish and vile and innocent and misguided. I recognize that my faith requires a great deal of... Well, Faith. Often in opposition to the evidence. I try not to state anything about God in certain terms, except this: No one can know for certain just what he is or what he's after. We can only peer at the cryptic, contradictory, fragmented information available to us and try to puzzle it out as best we can.

This makes me a very odd sort of Christian. Which is why I can say things like the things I say, which might make no sense to your average devout Churchgoer.

--Anthony

Due to the use of Naomi 3.3.2 Beta web filtering, the following people may need to private-message me if they wish to contact me: Auraptor, Kaneman, Piratenews. I apologize for the inconvenience.

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Wednesday, August 25, 2010 2:03 PM

KANEMAN


Quote:
Originally posted by AnthonyT:
"I wouldn't be at all surprised to learn that Ron Paul had said it"

Hello,

Not only did Ron Paul say it during the 2008 election run, but he got yelled at by the Giuliani for it if memory serves.

He had a cogent defense for his opinion, though: The CIA said it first in their own evaluation of 9/11.

I believe the exact phrase was 'blowback.' As in, 'we are experiencing blowback for our actions around the globe.'


--Anthony

Due to the use of Naomi 3.3.2 Beta web filtering, the following people may need to private-message me if they wish to contact me: Auraptor, Kaneman, Piratenews. I apologize for the inconvenience.


Hey gay Anthony, He also said end welfare, social security, department of education, and the IRS...what say you?....do me a favor libs. Stop taking Ron Paul and trying to turn him into a lib. You will not like what he would do...NO aid to any country on the tax payers dime, NO social programs for lazy Nigeroes and white trash, NO Obamahealthcare funded by the workers, NO FED, NO NAFTA, NO NASA, NO anything!!!! They call him DR. NO for a reason. He wants strong national defense, congress to declare war, self reliance...bottom line the guy is a founding father.Google "Ron Paul the only NO vote" Why does he do it? Unconstitutional. Does he think the states can pass the same law? Yes. Would he vote for 90% of the laws he votes no on..on a state level? he says yes.

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Wednesday, August 25, 2010 2:26 PM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko:


Although Mexico *IS* overwhelmingly Christian. Roman Catholic, to be exact.

So are all Christians murderous terrorists?

There's plenty of monsters in every religion. The big difference is, you don't really see the religious aspects played up when it's anyone other than Muslims (unless it's PN claiming that it's all the Jews' fault).



And what part of the Mexican drug war is founded in or related in any way with Christianity / Catholicism ?

Oh, that's right.

Exactly zero.

Once again, your sad logic fails you.




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Wednesday, August 25, 2010 2:26 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Ron Paul makes me think the founding fathers would have supported a community center near ground zero.

No wonder the tea parties and the conservatives hate him so much.

AURaptor's Greatest Hits:

Friday, May 28, 2010 - 20:32 To AnthonyT:
Go fuck yourself.
On this matter, make no mistake. I want you to go fuck yourself long and hard, as well as anyone who agrees with you. I got no use for you.

Friday, May 28, 2010 - 18:26 To President Obama:
Mr. President, you're a god damn, mother fucking liar.
Fuck you, you cock sucking community activist piece of shit.
... go fuck yourself, Mr. President.

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Wednesday, August 25, 2010 2:48 PM

KANEMAN


Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko:
Ron Paul makes me think the founding fathers would have supported a community center near ground zero.

No wonder the tea parties and the conservatives hate him so much.

AURaptor's Greatest Hits:

Friday, May 28, 2010 - 20:32 To AnthonyT:
Go fuck yourself.
On this matter, make no mistake. I want you to go fuck yourself long and hard, as well as anyone who agrees with you. I got no use for you.

Friday, May 28, 2010 - 18:26 To President Obama:
Mr. President, you're a god damn, mother fucking liar.
Fuck you, you cock sucking community activist piece of shit.
... go fuck yourself, Mr. President.



Try again....

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Wednesday, August 25, 2010 2:53 PM

KANEMAN


Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko:
Ron Paul makes me think the founding fathers would have supported a community center near ground zero.

No wonder the tea parties and the conservatives hate him so much.

AURaptor's Greatest Hits:

Friday, May 28, 2010 - 20:32 To AnthonyT:
Go fuck yourself.
On this matter, make no mistake. I want you to go fuck yourself long and hard, as well as anyone who agrees with you. I got no use for you.

Friday, May 28, 2010 - 18:26 To President Obama:
Mr. President, you're a god damn, mother fucking liar.
Fuck you, you cock sucking community activist piece of shit.
... go fuck yourself, Mr. President.


I have said it before...there is no way you are just a gay shipping clerk from Texas. You are an Islamic troll that I am sure. You do nothing but chase Auraptor around and shit on Christians(even though he is not). and conservatives and America...Dude I am calling you out...you are not from Texas.

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Wednesday, August 25, 2010 2:57 PM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important


Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko:
Ron Paul makes me think the founding fathers would have supported a community center near ground zero.

No wonder the tea parties and the conservatives hate him so much.

AURaptor's Greatest Hits:

Friday, May 28, 2010 - 20:32 To AnthonyT:
Go fuck yourself.
On this matter, make no mistake. I want you to go fuck yourself long and hard, as well as anyone who agrees with you. I got no use for you.

Friday, May 28, 2010 - 18:26 To President Obama:
Mr. President, you're a god damn, mother fucking liar.
Fuck you, you cock sucking community activist piece of shit.
... go fuck yourself, Mr. President.



"Ron Paul makes me think the founding fathers would have supported a community center near ground zero."

Hello,

I don't know if the founding fathers would have supported the community center. Some of them were pretty variable on their belief in freedom. (See: Alien and Sedition Acts, the Patriot Act of the Patriot Age.)

However, I think the best of them would have agreed with Ron Paul on this:

The ONLY role of government in regards to this Community Center is to get out of its way. It's not the place of government or government officials to impede such a project, or to incite public furor about it. The rights to build are not in question, and the question of rights is government's primary purpose.

--Anthony



Due to the use of Naomi 3.3.2 Beta web filtering, the following people may need to private-message me if they wish to contact me: Auraptor, Kaneman, Piratenews. I apologize for the inconvenience.

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Wednesday, August 25, 2010 3:08 PM

SHINYGOODGUY


"Religion of Peace" - another that produce Eric Rudolph; killing people because he opposed abortions.

http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2005-07-17-rudolph-monday-sentenci
ng_x.htm

Ironic, killing people because of a radical/extremist belief in religion. You're still killing babies only later. People are human beings, just babies at a later stage in life. It's still killing.

Extremists exist in every religion, since man first walked upright. Muslims, Christians and Roman Catholics do not have the market cornered.
______________________________________________________________

The majority of the 9/11 Hijackers were Saudis; 15 of 19 were Saudis.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hijackers_in_the_September_11_attacks

Why do I bring this up? What were we doing in Iraq if the al-Qaeda masterminds of the attack were Saudis? Osama bin Laden is Saudi. He is an extremist who is a muslim. Were he catholic, he would be an extremist.

This is not so much about religion but about the perversion of the beliefs within the religion; whether it be christian, catholic or muslim. Extremism is the perversion that distorts the perception of that religion. It is man and the thirst for power and control that feeds that extremism.
________________________________________________________

News item: There is a man in Puerto Rico that claims he is the embodiment of Christ.



This is another form of extremist behavior. Soon he will be leading his followers to drink some Kool-aid.


SGG




Tawabawho?

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Wednesday, August 25, 2010 3:24 PM

KANEMAN


Quote:
Originally posted by AnthonyT:
Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko:
Ron Paul makes me think the founding fathers would have supported a community center near ground zero.

No wonder the tea parties and the conservatives hate him so much.

AURaptor's Greatest Hits:

Friday, May 28, 2010 - 20:32 To AnthonyT:
Go fuck yourself.
On this matter, make no mistake. I want you to go fuck yourself long and hard, as well as anyone who agrees with you. I got no use for you.

Friday, May 28, 2010 - 18:26 To President Obama:
Mr. President, you're a god damn, mother fucking liar.
Fuck you, you cock sucking community activist piece of shit.
... go fuck yourself, Mr. President.



"Ron Paul makes me think the founding fathers would have supported a community center near ground zero."

Hello,

I don't know if the founding fathers would have supported the community center. Some of them were pretty variable on their belief in freedom. (See: Alien and Sedition Acts, the Patriot Act of the Patriot Age.)

However, I think the best of them would have agreed with Ron Paul on this:

The ONLY role of government in regards to this Community Center is to get out of its way. It's not the place of government or government officials to impede such a project, or to incite public furor about it. The rights to build are not in question, and the question of rights is government's primary purpose.

--Anthony



Due to the use of Naomi 3.3.2 Beta web filtering, the following people may need to private-message me if they wish to contact me: Auraptor, Kaneman, Piratenews. I apologize for the inconvenience.


And they would all agree it is a local issue...so be like our founding fathers and let the locals decide...if you want the center in your neighborhood invite them . The people of New York will thank you. Get it? Ron Paul does. Fucking idiots.

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Wednesday, August 25, 2010 3:34 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


The city council already voted unanimously to allow it. This issue was over as far as the locals were concerned, a year ago.

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Wednesday, August 25, 2010 3:44 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:
Shiny posted:


"Religion of Peace" - another that produce Eric Rudolph; killing people because he opposed abortions.



Yup. I pointed out Timothy McVeigh as another. He was born and raised Catholic. He died a Catholic, receiving the Anointing of the Sick just minutes before his execution. And in between, he was heavily influenced by the Christian Identity movement, and repeatedly tried to make contact with its main stronghold in Elohim City, Oklahoma.

Nobody brings him up as a radical religious extremist because it would raise some uncomfortable questions about our country, I think.

Quoth Michael Franti,

Quote:
It's not a war against evil
It's really just revenge
Waged on the poorest by the same rich men
Fight terrorists wherever they be found
But why you not bombing tim mcveigh's hometown?
You can say what you want
propaganda, television
But all bombing is terrorism

We can chase down all our enemies
We can bring them to their knees
We can bomb the world to pieces
But we can't bomb it into peace


[ Michael Franti & Spearhead, Bomb the World ]

AURaptor's Greatest Hits:

Friday, May 28, 2010 - 20:32 To AnthonyT:
Go fuck yourself.
On this matter, make no mistake. I want you to go fuck yourself long and hard, as well as anyone who agrees with you. I got no use for you.

Friday, May 28, 2010 - 18:26 To President Obama:
Mr. President, you're a god damn, mother fucking liar.
Fuck you, you cock sucking community activist piece of shit.
... go fuck yourself, Mr. President.

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Wednesday, August 25, 2010 3:46 PM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important


Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko:
The city council already voted unanimously to allow it. This issue was over as far as the locals were concerned, a year ago.


Hello,

That's quite correct, Mike. Very astute observation.

Not only that, but had they *wanted* to object, they'd have been forced to find some reason other than the religious affiliation of the project architects. Else they'd have gone against the Constitution, and presumably offended every conservative Constitutionalist in the land.

Including, presumably, Ron Paul, and the better portion of the Founding Fathers.

--Anthony

Due to the use of Naomi 3.3.2 Beta web filtering, the following people may need to private-message me if they wish to contact me: Auraptor, Kaneman, Piratenews. I apologize for the inconvenience.

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Wednesday, August 25, 2010 3:49 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


And heck, I didn't even realize Newt Gingrich (or Rappy, for that matter) was a New York City "local"...

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Wednesday, August 25, 2010 3:57 PM

MINCINGBEAST


So...on one hand we have McVeigh and Rudolph, and on the other Al-Qaeda, Al-Shahab, the Taliban, et al. Those scales don't balance--no matter how hard I squint or press with my thumb.

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Wednesday, August 25, 2010 4:11 PM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko:
The city council already voted unanimously to allow it. This issue was over as far as the locals were concerned, a year ago.


And yet, those darn people still have that damn freedom of speech thing.

go figure.




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Wednesday, August 25, 2010 4:12 PM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko:
And heck, I didn't even realize Newt Gingrich (or Rappy, for that matter) was a New York City "local"...


Not a local of Pearl Harbor, Hawai'i, either.

Your point ?




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Wednesday, August 25, 2010 4:15 PM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important



"So...on one hand we have McVeigh and Rudolph, and on the other Al-Qaeda, Al-Shahab, the Taliban, et al. Those scales don't balance--no matter how hard I squint or press with my thumb."


Hello Mince,

If you are arguing that the Islamic faith has more terrorist members than any other faith currently, I think that's probably demonstrable.

As a bonus, they also have the majority of Pirates.

--Anthony

Due to the use of Naomi 3.3.2 Beta web filtering, the following people may need to private-message me if they wish to contact me: Auraptor, Kaneman, Piratenews. I apologize for the inconvenience.

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Wednesday, August 25, 2010 4:15 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:
Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko:
The city council already voted unanimously to allow it. This issue was over as far as the locals were concerned, a year ago.


And yet, those darn people still have that damn freedom of speech thing.

go figure.



And yet, those darn Muslims still have that property, that darn freedom of religion thing, AND that darn freedom of speech thing.

Go figure.

AURaptor's Greatest Hits:

Friday, May 28, 2010 - 20:32 To AnthonyT:
Go fuck yourself.
On this matter, make no mistake. I want you to go fuck yourself long and hard, as well as anyone who agrees with you. I got no use for you.

Friday, May 28, 2010 - 18:26 To President Obama:
Mr. President, you're a god damn, mother fucking liar.
Fuck you, you cock sucking community activist piece of shit.
... go fuck yourself, Mr. President.

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Wednesday, August 25, 2010 5:09 PM

KPO

Sometimes you own the libs. Sometimes, the libs own you.


Quote:
So...on one hand we have McVeigh and Rudolph, and on the other Al-Qaeda, Al-Shahab, the Taliban, et al. Those scales don't balance--no matter how hard I squint or press with my thumb.

I think the scales balancing exercise is pretty pointless: even if we could add up every bad thing done by a christian versus every bad thing done by a muslim, and somehow measure the difference - it's still not a fair test for a hundred reasons. A christian or muslim can do bad things out of ordinary human vices and flaws. Similarly 'Christian' or 'Muslim' nations can carry out genocide, not necessarily 100% inspired by their religion (Nazi Germany, Ottoman Turkey). So EVERY SINGLE act of evil we add to the scales really needs to be dissected and squabbled over to determine what fraction of its weight of evil should be attributed to Christianity/Islam...

The question of religions' innate peacefulness, or otherwise, is one that we can only really judge with our guts, looking as honestly as we can at the world, and through history. BUT THEN (here's the test), if we conclude that all religions are equally violence-prone, or if we choose to arrange a violence-proneness hierarchy - either way we must explain it.

I personally view Islam as more violence-prone than other religions, and explain it in my mind by highlighting some of its doctrines, for example:

1) It's political in nature (christianity is much more apolitical)
2) It aims for world conquest (so does christianity, but not in a political way as much)
3) It has a doctrine of holy war (no such doctrine in new testament christianity)

By my knowledge and calculations Buddhism and Hinduism can be said to have none of these traits, Christianity has one (2), Judaism has two (1 and 3), and Islam has all three. Though I welocme other people's views on this. But I think this makes a difference.

That's how I make sense of things. People that believe all religions inspire humans to evil to the same extent (including Buddhism?), how do you explain this idea? Because unexplained, it's a bit of a freakish coincidence. Different religions have different assessments of what is evil, and try different ways of prohibiting it - but you're saying that they all succeed to the exact same extent?

One explanation might be that it is something about the conviction (common to all religions) that God is on your side - and therefore must hate your enemies as much as you do.

It's not personal. It's just war.

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Wednesday, August 25, 2010 5:52 PM

FREMDFIRMA


Quote:
Originally posted by AnthonyT:
The Quran didn't spring up from the aether, but is rather built upon the foundation of Christianity, which is built on the foundation of Judaism.

If the book report reads similarly, it's because Judaism, Christianity, and Islam are just three variations of the same story, like a Hollywood hack just kept revving out sequels and re-imaginings to make a buck.

ETA: This is basically how it goes. Jews - We believe in God. Christians - We believe in God + Jesus. Muslims - We believe in God + Jesus + Mohammed. Each one just adds a new chapter to the story while accepting the previous chapters whole, sometimes with minor edits or revisions.

Indeed, you can chase that all the way back to Marduk, and probably long before even then, all the way back to lightning bolts from the sky painted on cave walls, but it's essentially the same story.

And despite my hostility to all three beliefs I do need to point out that up till very recently Islam was prettymuch reformist.

It was in fact Mohammed who brokered the peace of Medina, and the novel (at the time) concept that folks of all beliefs could and should live together without conflict.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constitution_of_Medina

Furthermore, despite their recent antagonism against Judaism, starting around 1948-1950 in response to some pretty damn serious provocation, and ongoing primarily in response to the Israel-Palestine conflict, historically Muslims had a VERY long history of sheltering Jews from Christian persecution, and were fairly tolerant of Christians right up till 1953 and the assasination of Mossedeigh and replacement with The Shah...

Which turned REALLY hostile in 1979 when they threw his ass down and replaced him with Khomeni, who had every reason in the world to BE pretty hostile about it, but that was more politics than religion, and a primary reason WHY middle easterners as a rule tolerate the radical blackhearts amongst them is that they see them as "the devil you know" a necessary evil as a bulwark against the abuses and exploitation of the west, since they're the ONLY folk who've ever actually had any success putting a boot to the ass of imperialistic invaders, be they european, russian, american or corporate.

Think of those fanatics as a rage-mad guard dog, in between your people, and a bunch of drooling, slavering would-be-slavemasters eyeballing your country with a collar in one hand, a whip in the other, hell bent on stripping your country to the bare fucking bedrock...

And in that moment, you will understand WHY those people tolerate such nimrods - so long as we present such an obvious, blatant and undeniable THREAT, to them, their way of life, all they hold dear, they'd give succor to the very devil hisself to hold us off, and if ole nick takes a beating in the process, so much the better for it.

If we'd left it the fuck alone, it wouldn't come to this, but we supported popping Mossedeigh, we backed The Shah, we built Osama, we backed Saddam when The Shah fell, and we KEEP FUCKING PUSHING, what with Chalabi, and now Kharazi...

When will we ever learn, even the meekest mouse is gonna sink it's teeth into you if you corner it and just keep poking it - maybe if for once, just fucking ONCE, if we left well the hell ALONE those radical assholes wouldn't be able to point to us as a greater threat, would not be able to count on the tacit support of their own, who despite religion want the same things in life anyone does, to live, to love, to raise a family, put food on the table, have dinner, make it with the wife, HUMAN things, curse it.

But take those away, or threaten to, and you leave them nothing TO do but fight you.

It's just that goddamn simple, religion notwithstanding.

-Frem

I do not serve the Blind God.

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Wednesday, August 25, 2010 6:38 PM

HKCAVALIER


KPO, the problem is that folks brought up Christianity for its similarities with Islam, as just another arguably violent religion which no one is currently objecting to in this country. The argument then is, why are we singling out Islam, exactly? Then the answers come, and the counter arguments.

I think Islam as it exists in certain other countries and owing to the political hierarchies in those particular nations is a good deal more dangerous, more violent than Christianity as it exists here in America today. The people of these nations, understandably, encouraged by a brutal political hierarchy, brutal injustice of all kinds, may themselves be more brutal in their understanding of human nature, than are the citizens of this country. Duh. I don't think anyone would/could dispute that.

But Islam in Iran /= Islam in the USA (Islam in Iran /= even Islam in Indonesia!). This to me is equally indisputable by rational beings. Christianity unfettered by representative democracy and strong secular values would be a good deal more violent than Christianity currently is, as history attests. Were Right Wing Fundamentalist Christians to gain control of our government, I suspect things would be considerably worse, in terms of civil liberties and human rights--you know, for the undesirables.

All theocracies function in this way.

The issue is power--how much power does the church really have? It is not so much Islam that is behind the times (it's a younger religion than Christianity) as it is the political systems of certain countries where Islam is prevalent.

Simply put: our American system has proven itself fully capable of neutering any religion's ambitions to rule this nation by the dictates of its holy book. I dare say our understanding of personal freedom as set down by our Founding Fathers might be just a little more effective in combating Islamism than the nations in the EU. The Nations of Europe are not founded upon various Bills of Rights, oh no. They are founded on many centuries of tradition. For Europe, the issue is a conflict of culture, not principles. For us, a lot of grey areas (tradition vs. tradition) which the Islamists there have exploited (who says your traditions are more traditional than ours!!! We have just as much right to our traditions as you!!! etc.) would simply not be at issue in this country, because we don't base our American way of life on centuries old tradition, we explicitly base our way of life on principles set down in a few documents specifically designed to create order out of the chaos of heterogeneous culture.

We've been down this road many times in our country's young life. When it comes to fighting our Constitution, I promise you, the Islamist got no game (and they know it--that's why they're trying to get us to destroy it for 'em!!! Ah, irony!).

We are in absolutely no danger, demonstrable or implicit, from this Community Center going up in NYC. But our values are being eroded by this continued despicable opposition to it.

HKCavalier

Hey, hey, hey, don't be mean. We don't have to be mean, because, remember, no matter where you go, there you are.

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Wednesday, August 25, 2010 8:29 PM

TRAVELER


I always come back to FDR's simple phrase, "All we have to fear is fear itself". If we blind ourselves then we will let it slip through our fingers. No one can take it away from us. We lose our freedom by throwing it away with hate and bigotry. Hate is the religion we need to fight. Some may give it a formal name, but that is just a cover. The god that destroyed the Twin Towers was hate, power, or greed; the Islam faith had nothing to do with it.

This is what all the hate that has been spewing out has brought us.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/38852372/ns/us_news-crime_and_courts/



http://www.imdb.com/mymovies/list?l=28764731
Traveler

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Wednesday, August 25, 2010 8:29 PM

SHINYGOODGUY


One explanation might be that it is something about the conviction (common to all religions) that God is on your side - and therefore must hate your enemies as much as you do.
_______________________________________________________________

That statement is more true in regard to Christianity and Islam than for any other religion. This, of course, is based totally upon man's interpretation of the written word within the Koran and Bible. I cannot intelligently comment upon the written word within the Koran because I've never read it. But I can comment upon the Bible.

It is filled with words and imagery that may be interpreted as God being for those who believe, and those believers being on the side of righteousness striking a blow against evil. Chosen people, chosen or promised lands, riches to those who devote themselves. I have heard preachers urge followers to even abandon family if they don't believe in our lord and savior.

When I was a kid I believed that Jesus, and God, was a good benefactor asking his followers to love the world as He loved it. To me it included family members and strangers alike. All God's children are deserving of his love regardless; "for he so loved the world."

When I was a child, I thought as a child. Now I see it as a scam. Prophets calling upon the flock to reject family who think differently than the collective, to vote for a candidate because he claims to go to church (then, once in quite conveniently forgets how he got there), and generally wants impose their beliefs on those who prefer to live their lives in peace sans God.

Send in your dollars so that we may combat the heathen, the wretched non-believers. The only way to salvation is through yada, yada ad infinitum. Glass cathedrals with golden spires are built in his name. A single man is worshipped and rides around in a bullet-proof vehicle, people kiss his ring. And yet, in the Bible it says: Thou shalt have no other God before me.

And in his name we had the Crusades, the Inquisition and, as a result, finally an offshoot of this belief - Christianity. I don't believe its as apolitical as you say. Most particularly in today's environment. Talk with any Christian today and you will see that this is no longer the case. They believe that the nation's salvation is inextricably linked to repentence of man's sin and evil devotion to non-christian beliefs.

A friend of a friend, who is of the Christian faith, has proudly stated on his Facebook page that he's off to a Palin/Beck rally. And he equated the president with socialist heathens hellbent on taking away the people's rights to bare arms. He's originally from Texas and of mexican desent. He's a hard-working, god-fearing father of 4 who believes what he believes.

He seems to be a decent fellow, pleasant enough in his demeanor and quite generous. Yet, it has been instilled in him this belief that his position is the correct one; and no one will dissuade him. I spoke with him briefly and was asked by his wife, my friend not to talk politics. Anything but that. I quickly found out why. He was convinced the president was going to run the country into the ground.

World conquest? Have you been to a Christian church lately? It is the mission of every Christian to spread the gospel - throughout the world.

Holy War doctrine. Your kidding, right!? It may not be doctrine in the new testament, but I refer you to the paragraph above. Hae you been to a Christian church meeting lately?

To try and tally up a score on an "evil" meter is somewhat naive. Suffice it to say that men, in the name of righteousness, do evil things and claim religious justification to explain their actions. War is war. Let's not sugarcoat it. Religion is used, like any other tool, to justify the taking of what belongs to another - pure and simple.

What is happening today is both Christians and Islamists beating their chest claiming "my religion is better than yours" and killing anyone with an opposite view. War, taking and imposing another's will - pure and simple.


SGG



Tawabawho?

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Wednesday, August 25, 2010 8:42 PM

SHINYGOODGUY


Yep, Traveler

"The god that destroyed the Twin Towers was hate, power, or greed; the Islam faith had nothing to do with it."
_______________________________________________________________________

Hate, power, greed and fear is what the Extremists around the world worship. All extremists, from all walks and beliefs. It is used to enslave and control those who submit without question.


SGG


Tawabawho?

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Wednesday, August 25, 2010 8:58 PM

FREMDFIRMA



Which is exactly what my signature line refers to, yes.

And I also dispute that our governmental principles "fully" neutered Christianitys influence, and will continue to do so until I don't have laws written BY them dictating MY behavior according to THEIR morality.

-Frem

I do not serve the Blind God.

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Wednesday, August 25, 2010 11:09 PM

HKCAVALIER


You're one o' these glass-half-empty type o' guys, now, ain'tcha?

HKCavalier

Hey, hey, hey, don't be mean. We don't have to be mean, because, remember, no matter where you go, there you are.

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Thursday, August 26, 2010 12:04 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko:

And yet, those darn Muslims still have that property, that darn freedom of religion thing, AND that darn freedom of speech thing.

Go figure.


Building a mosque on the site of ground zero is wrong. Everyone knows it, at their core.

Even if they have the right, that still doesn't mean they should build there. It won't accomplish the alleged goals we're being told, the 'building of bridges', will not happen. The reactions , locally and across the nation, are proof of that fact.




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Thursday, August 26, 2010 4:06 AM

BYTEMITE


Quote:
One explanation might be that it is something about the conviction (common to all religions) that God is on your side - and therefore must hate your enemies as much as you do.


Perhaps. The rest of this post feels a little like fear mongering of a different sort.

Most of those Christians, those paranoid wacky deluded Christians bristling with guns work 40 hour per week jobs and come back home exhausted. They don't know how to organize or how to fight, so they go to some political rally organized by someone else feeding off their fears to feel like they're making a difference but not actually doing anything about it. They are tame, trained, and contained.

Most of the people who become your Timothy McVeigh, your Unibomber, your Al Qaeda mook were pushed off the deep end, and I have my ideas on who I think did the pushing, and here's a hint, it wasn't their Imams or Ayatollahs or their preachers. The average person in the world doesn't have a clue how to organize a resistance or execute an elaborate terrorist plot on their own. You might get a few punk kids, like the stereotypical 14 year old Palestinian suicide bomber, who's the exact same mentally as the Columbine Highschool Shooters, the exact same as the Detroit punks using their cover being Christian missionaries to try break into mini-Frem's home and get tossed out on their ass. It's not about the religion for them, not really, it's about rage and hatred for the world and justifications and wanting to be admired or feared and to take what they want. Droogs walking down the street drinking at milk bars.

Non-extremist Muslims in the middle east, and there are some, face extremism every moment of their lives. Americans face a different problem, no less prevalent, occupying all our time. Both are just happy to get through the day with dinner on their table, like Frem said. End result is the same, peons stay DOWN and the world never changes. That's the point.

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Thursday, August 26, 2010 4:58 AM

PIZMOBEACH

... fully loaded, safety off...


Quote:
Originally posted by HKCavalier:
We are in absolutely no danger, demonstrable or implicit, from this Community Center going up in NYC. But our values are being eroded by this continued despicable opposition to it.


Do you think all opposition to it is based on people thinking Islam=Terrorists?

I'm also curious about the message this sends to the world... certainly it's many messages depending on what part of the world. Some say it shows our strength and our faith in our constitution and Freedom and The American Way, but how would it play in China? France? Taliban? I wonder how Islamic extremists would view the mosque/C-Center going up there?

Scifi movie music + Firefly dialogue clips, 24 hours a day - http://www.scifiradio.com

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Thursday, August 26, 2010 5:10 AM

KANEMAN


Quote:
Originally posted by kpo:
Quote:
So...on one hand we have McVeigh and Rudolph, and on the other Al-Qaeda, Al-Shahab, the Taliban, et al. Those scales don't balance--no matter how hard I squint or press with my thumb.

I think the scales balancing exercise is pretty pointless: even if we could add up every bad thing done by a christian versus every bad thing done by a muslim, and somehow measure the difference - it's still not a fair test for a hundred reasons. A christian or muslim can do bad things out of ordinary human vices and flaws. Similarly 'Christian' or 'Muslim' nations can carry out genocide, not necessarily 100% inspired by their religion (Nazi Germany, Ottoman Turkey). So EVERY SINGLE act of evil we add to the scales really needs to be dissected and squabbled over to determine what fraction of its weight of evil should be attributed to Christianity/Islam...

The question of religions' innate peacefulness, or otherwise, is one that we can only really judge with our guts, looking as honestly as we can at the world, and through history. BUT THEN (here's the test), if we conclude that all religions are equally violence-prone, or if we choose to arrange a violence-proneness hierarchy - either way we must explain it.

I personally view Islam as more violence-prone than other religions, and explain it in my mind by highlighting some of its doctrines, for example:

1) It's political in nature (christianity is much more apolitical)
2) It aims for world conquest (so does christianity, but not in a political way as much)
3) It has a doctrine of holy war (no such doctrine in new testament christianity)

By my knowledge and calculations Buddhism and Hinduism can be said to have none of these traits, Christianity has one (2), Judaism has two (1 and 3), and Islam has all three. Though I welocme other people's views on this. But I think this makes a difference.

That's how I make sense of things. People that believe all religions inspire humans to evil to the same extent (including Buddhism?), how do you explain this idea? Because unexplained, it's a bit of a freakish coincidence. Different religions have different assessments of what is evil, and try different ways of prohibiting it - but you're saying that they all succeed to the exact same extent?

One explanation might be that it is something about the conviction (common to all religions) that God is on your side - and therefore must hate your enemies as much as you do.

It's not personal. It's just war.



My soulmate does it again. KPO your number system, as cute and fuzzy as it is, is a tad off. You've attributed #2 with the Christians. "It aims for world conquest". Really? In fairness, I have to ask are you talking about the crusades hundreds of years ago when using the word conquest? I'm sure that's what you meant, seeing you are my soulmate, I am positive you are WAY to intelligent to equate missionaries peacefully bring Jesus(as silly as that concept is) to people around the world with the word conquest.

I would also ask you to retract your statement about scale and balance. And punish yourself privately in the manner and proper degree that you see fit for your error. Surely you can see the difference in what these two religions are trying to do NOW. See you on the other-side.

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Thursday, August 26, 2010 5:12 AM

KANEMAN


Quote:
Originally posted by pizmobeach:
Quote:
Originally posted by HKCavalier:
We are in absolutely no danger, demonstrable or implicit, from this Community Center going up in NYC. But our values are being eroded by this continued despicable opposition to it.


Do you think all opposition to it is based on people thinking Islam=Terrorists?

I'm also curious about the message this sends to the world... certainly it's many messages depending on what part of the world. Some say it shows our strength and our faith in our constitution and Freedom and The American Way, but how would it play in China? France? Taliban? I wonder how Islamic extremists would view the mosque/C-Center going up there?

Scifi movie music + Firefly dialogue clips, 24 hours a day - http://www.scifiradio.com


You don't really wonder. You already know the answer. I think this is a Jedi mind trick.

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Thursday, August 26, 2010 5:13 AM

KANEMAN


Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko:
The city council already voted unanimously to allow it. This issue was over as far as the locals were concerned, a year ago.


Not when they are not representing the will of the locals. Put it to referendum in the city. End of story.

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Thursday, August 26, 2010 5:27 AM

PIZMOBEACH

... fully loaded, safety off...


Quote:
Originally posted by kaneman:
You don't really wonder. You already know the answer. I think this is a Jedi mind trick.


Daaamn, the Force must be with me... it even worked on the nytimes... as if on cue:

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/08/26/world/26islamic.html?_r=1&hp

"Looking at Islamic Center Debate, How the World Sees U.S."

good read, some excerpts:

"For more than two decades, Abdelhamid Shaari has been lobbying a succession of governments in Milan for permission to build a mosque for his congregants — any mosque at all, in any location.

In that light, the furor over the precise location of Park51, the proposed Islamic community center in Lower Manhattan, looks to Mr. Shaari like something to aspire to. “At least in America,” Mr. Shaari said, “there’s a debate."

“America hates Islam,” said Mohaimen Jabar, the owner of a clothes shop in Baghdad, Iraq. “If America loved us, it would help the Palestinians and stop the wars in Afghanistan and Iraq,” he said. “It would stop Iran and Israel from distorting the image of Islam.”

China’s state-run news media has used the story to elaborate on the need for a secular state strong enough to police extremism, a matter near and dear to its own ideology.

But “the harmonious image of the melting pot, of the ability to integrate all immigrant ethnicities is tottering dangerously,” Federico Rampini wrote in the Italian newspaper La Repubblica.

That was echoed by Pierre Rousselin, a French columnist writing in Le Figaro: “America is discovering that its Constitution and liberal principles don’t protect her from the debates that the practice of Islam stirs up in our countries.”

Far more common, however, was a sort of shrug of the shoulders from clerics and observers accustomed to far more unpleasant debates. While extremists have presented the controversy as proof of American hostility toward Islam, some religious leaders have taken quite a different stance, arguing against placing the center close to ground zero.

Dalil Boubakeur, head of the Grande Mosquée of Paris and one of the most senior Islamic clerics in France, told France-Soir: “There are symbolic places that awaken memories whether you mean to or not. And it isn’t good to awaken memories.”

A senior cleric at Egypt’s Al Azhar, the closest equivalent in the Sunni Islamic world to the Vatican, said that building at the proposed location sounded like bad judgment on the part of American Muslims.

“It will create a permanent link between Islam and 9/11,” said Abdel Moety Bayoumi, a member of the Islamic Research Institute at Al Azhar. “Why should we put ourselves and Islam in a position of blame?”

He referred to Newt Gingrich’s widely reported statement that there should not be a new mosque in Lower Manhattan until Saudi Arabia allows construction of churches or synagogues.

“How can they compare building a mosque in N.Y. with building whatever in Mecca?” Mr. Tarek wrote. “I thought they viewed themselves better than that country of Saudi Arabia with its many human rights violations, as they love to put it.”

If the mosque were built, many Lebanese commentators said, it would increase the influence of the ideal of the secular state. Many Lebanese, however, seemed more interested that Miss U.S.A., Rima Fakih, a Lebanese-American, had suggested that Park51 seek another location, than in the debate itself.

No quotes from Taliban or Islamic extremists though - maybe they'd bomb NY if it isn't built?

Scifi movie music + Firefly dialogue clips, 24 hours a day - http://www.scifiradio.com

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Thursday, August 26, 2010 5:35 AM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:
Originally posted by kaneman:
Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko:
The city council already voted unanimously to allow it. This issue was over as far as the locals were concerned, a year ago.


Not when they are not representing the will of the locals. Put it to referendum in the city. End of story.



In other words, when you don't like the outcome of the game, change the rules.

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Thursday, August 26, 2010 5:43 AM

KPO

Sometimes you own the libs. Sometimes, the libs own you.


Quote:
You've attributed #2 with the Christians. "It aims for world conquest". Really? In fairness, I have to ask are you talking about the crusades hundreds of years ago when using the word conquest? I'm sure that's what you meant, seeing you are my soulmate,


No, though I guess I could've been less controversial with my choice of words. Islam and Christianity both have world missions - the aim of spreading themselves to every corner of the world. Not every religion does. The difference with christianity I think is that it isn't inherently political like Islam, so when it talks about 'onward christian soldiers, marching as to war', it's talking about spiritual conquest of the world, not physical/political.

Another thing, I don't think Islam has a doctrine of free will - another thing that might make it inherently more controlling over the individual.

Quote:
I would also ask you to retract your statement about scale and balance.

What don't you like about the scales statement?

It's not personal. It's just war.

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Thursday, August 26, 2010 5:46 AM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important


Hello Mike,

Listen, people who want to put it to a local vote just want to restore the power to the local people.

All construction in the city is traditionally put up for a local vote, after all. Nobody is asking for special rules to be put in place for this individual structure. Treating this structure differently in any way from the other structures in the city just because Muslims are building it would probably violate freedom of religion.

You know about freedom of religion, don't you, Mike? It's protected by the Constitution. The Constitution, Mike. That goddamned piece of paper that lets the Feds shit all over the state and local governments. Universal rights enforceable throughout the nation.

As per the Founding Fathers, Mike.

And that's what this is all about, right, Mike?

So let's have a vote from the neighborhood, just like we always do.

--Anthony



Due to the use of Naomi 3.3.2 Beta web filtering, the following people may need to private-message me if they wish to contact me: Auraptor, Kaneman, Piratenews. I apologize for the inconvenience.

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Thursday, August 26, 2010 5:55 AM

STORYMARK


Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:
Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko:
The city council already voted unanimously to allow it. This issue was over as far as the locals were concerned, a year ago.


And yet, those darn people still have that damn freedom of speech thing.

go figure.





Sure they do. They have the right to complain all they like. Doesn't mean they can't build.

"I thoroughly disapprove of duels. If a man should challenge me, I would take him kindly and forgivingly by the hand and lead him to a quiet place and kill him."

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Thursday, August 26, 2010 5:57 AM

STORYMARK


Quote:
Originally posted by Storymark:
Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:



Actually, some are denying the existence of Muslim extremists,


Prove it, chump.

"I thoroughly disapprove of duels. If a man should challenge me, I would take him kindly and forgivingly by the hand and lead him to a quiet place and kill him."


Bump.

Where's your proof Rappy - or have you been caught yet again in a blatant lie you're too cowardly to address?

"I thoroughly disapprove of duels. If a man should challenge me, I would take him kindly and forgivingly by the hand and lead him to a quiet place and kill him."

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Thursday, August 26, 2010 7:42 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Anthony: No, from what you said I'd call you a THINKING Christian. I feel exactly the same about the Bible; a bunch of MEN decided what should go in and not, and I'd like to know more about what was excluded. I found that Tom Hanks movie fascinating; not that I necessarily believe it, but it's an intriguing thought regarding Mary Magdalene, and DEFINITELY ticks me off that they DECIDED what should be added and what left out!

Leaving an open mind is the trait of one who THINKS about their faith; I'm the same way with buddhism. I'll be on the fence the rest of my ife about reincarnation, no doubt, tho' I like the idea of the opportunity to grow with each life, and there are things I question, but it "fits" me and I'm pretty rabid about organized religion, so we get along. Aside from the fact that buddhism, as more a philosophy than a religion, grows and evolves in each culture.

So to me, you're a thoughtful Christian, which I respect...people who blindly swallow ANYTHING seem foolish to me. Just my opinion. Also, I've had enough experience with prosletizers because of my own faith that I highly respect anyone who isn't!


Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off



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