REAL WORLD EVENT DISCUSSIONS

Would more holiday be good for America?

POSTED BY: KPO
UPDATED: Friday, September 3, 2010 06:29
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Thursday, September 2, 2010 3:21 AM

KPO

Sometimes you own the libs. Sometimes, the libs own you.


An article by an American living in London, about different working conditions in USA vs Europe. The comments at the bottom are also quite good.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-11139960

It's not personal. It's just war.

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Thursday, September 2, 2010 3:41 AM

CANTTAKESKY


Yes, good article. I learned a lot from the comments as well.

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Thursday, September 2, 2010 4:33 AM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important


Hello,

I'd rather vote for shorter work days, to better synchronize the work day with the school day.

--Anthony

Due to the use of Naomi 3.3.2 Beta web filtering, the following people may need to private-message me if they wish to contact me: Auraptor, Kaneman, Piratenews. I apologize for the inconvenience.

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Thursday, September 2, 2010 5:49 AM

AGENTROUKA


I just learned: That "personal day" concept is astonishingly evil, especially if they cut down the number.

Holidays: for relaxing and replenishing mental and physical resources.
Sick takes: for recovering from illness.

Excellent way of encouraging contagious employees to infect everyone with the flu so they don't lose their vacation days.


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Thursday, September 2, 2010 6:01 AM

KANEMAN


KPO why are you starting trouble again? Do you really want to transform the world's most productive people into lazy Europeans? Americans have a work ethic that the rest of the world does not understand, when we are not working we get bored(yes, even with all our toys), sure it is a uniquely American quaity, however when we retire we die... soon after....Are you trying to kill us KPO?

Most Americans (-lazy american liberals) believe in working hard and getting everything off the sweat of our brow....Now excuse me, I have to go dig a ditch.

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Thursday, September 2, 2010 7:06 AM

KPO

Sometimes you own the libs. Sometimes, the libs own you.


The article writer makes the argument that most Americans are driven by fear, as much as work ethic. And I don't understand an argument that says "productivity for productivity's sake" - as if that should be a nation and society's highest aim... I don't think that's healthy.

I think there's a balance to be struck. When I visited France a few years with their sluggish economy they were consumed with the question: "Travaillent nous assez?" (do we work enough?) I think a balance somewhere in between America and France is best.

The lower classes in America seem to me to be the main losers in all of this: forced to work harder than Europeans for not much greater wage, perhaps lower taxes but much more expensive health care/higher education.

It's not personal. It's just war.

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Thursday, September 2, 2010 7:14 AM

KPO

Sometimes you own the libs. Sometimes, the libs own you.


Although strangely, France is more productive than the U.S, U.K, Germany...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:OECD_Productivity_levels_2007.svg

Maybe because of their culture of out-of-hours-work...? :-s

It's not personal. It's just war.

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Thursday, September 2, 2010 7:20 AM

STORYMARK


I was wondering how long it'd take before someone pointed out what a really stupid ol' Kane made there.

Turns out, not long at all.

"I thoroughly disapprove of duels. If a man should challenge me, I would take him kindly and forgivingly by the hand and lead him to a quiet place and kill him."

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Thursday, September 2, 2010 8:15 AM

KANEMAN


Quote:

Originally posted by Storymark:
I was wondering how long it'd take before someone pointed out what a really stupid ol' Kane made there.

Turns out, not long at all.

"I thoroughly disapprove of duels. If a man should challenge me, I would take him kindly and forgivingly by the hand and lead him to a quiet place and kill him."



Where is the Grammarfairy? or the Missingawordfairy, or the Don'tcallsomeonestupidwhilewritingahalfsentencefairy?.

Skidmark, you are retarded...thank you for the laugh.

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Thursday, September 2, 2010 8:16 AM

KANEMAN


Quote:

Originally posted by kpo:
The article writer makes the argument that most Americans are driven by fear, as much as work ethic. And I don't understand an argument that says "productivity for productivity's sake" - as if that should be a nation and society's highest aim... I don't think that's healthy.

I think there's a balance to be struck. When I visited France a few years with their sluggish economy they were consumed with the question: "Travaillent nous assez?" (do we work enough?) I think a balance somewhere in between America and France is best.

The lower classes in America seem to me to be the main losers in all of this: forced to work harder than Europeans for not much greater wage, perhaps lower taxes but much more expensive health care/higher education.

It's not personal. It's just war.



I would just add that the writer is wrong.

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Thursday, September 2, 2010 8:23 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Yeah, Story, and he's not just wrong when it comes to France (see underlined section in final quote).

I think it would be healthier if American workers had more time off. Just compare Europe, which gets more time off than we do, with Japan, which gets less, and there's no doubt which is healthier. Personally, I wash shocked when I learned what we get in comparison to the rest of the developed world.

The Japanese have it even worse:
Quote:

Karoshi (過労死) (pronounced /karo:Si/), which can be translated quite literally from the Japanese as "death from overwork", is occupational sudden death. The major medical causes of karoshi deaths are heart attack and stroke due to stress.

Wen several high-ranking business executives who were still in their prime years suddenly died without any previous sign of illness, that the media began picking up on what appeared to be a new phenomenon. This new phenomenon was quickly labelled karoshi, and once it had a name and its symptoms were described and popularized, it was immediately seen as a new and serious menace for people in the work force.

Usually, Japan's rise from the devastation of World War II to economic prominence in the post-war decades has been regarded as the trigger for what has been called a new epidemic. It was recognized that employees cannot work for up to twelve hours a day six or seven days a week, year after year, without suffering physically as well as mentally.

In Korea, where a Confucian-inspired work ethic involves much of the adult populace, both male and female, in a six-day workweek with long hours, this phenomenon is known as "kwarosa" (Hangul, 과로사), a word derived from the same Chinese characters as its Japanese equivalent (過, ka, being the Chinese character for "exceed", 労, rou, for "labor", and 死, shi, for "death").

Quote:

Death from too much work is so commonplace in Japan that there is a word for it -- karoshi.

There is a national karoshi hotline, a karoshi self-help book and a law that funnels money to the widow and children of a salaryman (it's almost always a man) who works himself into an early karoshi for the good of his company.

A local Japanese government agency ruled June 30 for the widow and children of a 45-year-old Toyota chief engineer who died in 2006.

While organizing the worldwide manufacture of a hybrid version of the Camry sedan, the man had worked nights and weekends and often traveled abroad -- putting in up to 114 hours of overtime a month -- in the six months before he died in his bed of heart failure.

The cause of death was too much work, according to a ruling by the Labor Bureau of Aichi prefecture, where Toyota has its headquarters.

The engineer's daughter found his body on Jan. 2, 2006, the day before he was supposed to fly yet again to the United States for more work on the Camry launch, said Mikio Mizuno, an attorney for his wife.

For decades, the Japanese government has been trying, and largely failing, to set limits on work and on overtime. The problem of karoshi became prevalent enough to warrant its own word in the boom years of the late 1970s, as the number of Japanese men working more than 60 hours a week soared.

Thirty years later, overtime rules remain so nebulous and so weakly enforced that the United Nations' International Labor Organization has described Japan as a country with no legal limits on the practice.

The consequences show up not only in claims for death and disability from overwork but in suicides attributed to "fatigue from work." Among 2,207 work-related suicides in 2007, the most common reason (672 suicides) was overwork, according to government figures released in June.

Twice in the past year, Toyota -- the world's largest carmaker and a much-admired company in Japan -- has been publicly embarrassed by the deaths of employees who worked what Japanese authorities have judged to be killingly long hours.

Unpaid overtime is routine in factories and offices across Japan. At Toyota, it had been built into factory life -- in the form of long, after-hours quality-control sessions that were supposedly voluntary -- and was considered a key to the company's success. Participation in the sessions, though, often figured in a worker's prospects for promotion and higher pay.

McDonald's Japan, having lost a lawsuit to a restaurant manager who claimed his health failed because of long hours, announced in May that it, too, would pay more overtime.

So our firms over there are taking advantage of the Japanese work “ethic”.

We don't have a word for it (yet!), but it happens here, too.
Quote:

Americans work much more than Europeans: according to the OECD a typical employed American put in 1,877 hours in 2000, compared to 1,562 for his or her French counterpart. One American in three works more than fifty hours a week. Americans take fewer paid holidays than Europeans. Whereas Swedes get more than thirty paid days off work per year and even the Brits get an average of twenty-three, Americans can hope for something between four and ten, depending on where they live.

So more American adults are at work and they work much more than Europeans. What do they get for their efforts?

Not much, unless they are well-off. The US is an excellent place to be rich. Back in 1980 the average American chief executive earned forty times the average manufacturing employee. For the top tier of American CEOs, the ratio is now 475:1 and would be vastly greater if assets, not income, were taken into account. By way of comparison, the ratio in Britain is 24:1, in France 15:1, in Sweden 13:1.2 A privileged minority has access to the best medical treatment in the world. But 45 million Americans have no health insurance at all (of the world’s developed countries only the US and South Africa offer no universal medical coverage).

As a consequence, Americans live shorter lives than West Europeans. Their children are more likely to die in infancy: the US ranks twenty-sixth among industrial nations in infant mortality, with a rate double that of Sweden, higher than Slovenia’s, and only just ahead of Lithuania’s

Europeans work less: but when they do work they seem to put their time to better use. In 1970 GDP per hour in the EU was 35 percent below that of the US; today the gap is less than 7 percent and closing fast. Productivity per hour of work in Italy, Austria, and Denmark is similar to that of the United States; but the US is now distinctly outperformed in this key measure by Ireland, the Netherlands, Norway, Belgium, Luxembourg, Germany, …and France.

Europeans even appear to be better at generating small and medium-size businesses. There are more small businesses in the EU than in the United States, and they create more employment (65 percent of European jobs in 2002 were in small and medium-sized firms, compared with just 46 percent in the US). And they look after their employees much better. The EU Charter of Fundamental Rights promises the “right to parental leave following the birth or adoption of a child” and every West European country provides salary support during that leave. In Sweden women get sixty-four weeks off and two thirds of their wages. Even Portugal guarantees maternity leave for three months on 100 percent salary. The US federal government guarantees nothing. In the words of Valgard Haugland, Norway’s Christian Democratic minister for children and family: “Americans like to talk about family values. We have decided to do more than talk; we use our tax revenues to pay for family values.”

Yet despite such widely bemoaned bureaucratic and fiscal impediments to output, Europeans appear somehow to manage rather well.5 And of course the welfare state is not just a value in itself. In the words of the London School of Economics economist Nicholas Barr, it “is an efficiency device against market failure”6 : a prudential impediment to the social and political risks of excessive inequality. It was Winston Churchill who declared in March 1943 that “there is no finer investment for any community than putting milk into babies.” To his self-anointed disciples in contemporary America, however, this reeks of “welfare.” In the US today the richest 1 percent holds 38 percent of the wealth and they are redistributing it ever more to their advantage. Meanwhile one American adult in five is in poverty—compared with one in fifteen in Italy.

This article covers much more than working hours; it’s illuminating in the comparison/contrast between how the rest of the Westernized world looks at work and productivity, as compared to America. For anyone who is interested, http://www.nybooks.com/articles/archives/2005/feb/10/europe-vs-america/

As you can see by the underlined passage, we're NOT more productive than a number of other countries. So that claim goes out the window; what else 'ya got for why our work situations are better than those with more time off?


Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off




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Thursday, September 2, 2010 8:38 AM

BYTEMITE


Quote:

As a consequence, Americans live shorter lives than West Europeans. Their children are more likely to die in infancy: the US ranks twenty-sixth among industrial nations in infant mortality, with a rate double that of Sweden, higher than Slovenia’s, and only just ahead of Lithuania’s


That logical "proof" doesn't follow. Unless you can connect that to maternity leave, that's probably more symptomatic of the health care system than long work works.

As for work-related stress... Maybe, but it's hard for me to be objective because there are other factors that apply for me.

I've taken one vacation day in the past eight months, and no sick days. I have to save them for a couple trips I'm taking next year. At least they carry over...

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Thursday, September 2, 2010 8:41 AM

MINCINGBEAST


Though I am not overly fond of Protestants or Puritans, I support the Protestant/Puritan Work Ethic.

We ought not model ourselves after the indolent, nor allow our hands to be empty and idle. Except for when we are at work, which is the ideal time to browse teh interwebs.

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Thursday, September 2, 2010 9:26 AM

HERO


Quote:

Originally posted by kpo:
An article by an American living in London, about different working conditions in USA vs Europe. The comments at the bottom are also quite good.


I think we should celebrate Fastnach Day, National Hot Dog Day, Colonial Day, and either Columbus Day (usually Oct 12) or Leif Erikson Day (Oct 9)...because we need a Holiday between Labor Day and Veterens Day.

Being a govt employee I'm in favor of as many paid govt holidays as you want.

H

"Hero. I have come to respect you." "I am forced to agree with Hero here."- Chrisisall, 2009.
"I would rather not ignore your contributions." Niki2, 2010.

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Thursday, September 2, 2010 11:58 AM

FREMDFIRMA



Niki, that is part of what causes Hikikomori, which I have begun to see over the last fifteen years here in the US as well, although we don't have a specific word for it yet - but just wait, big pharma is no doubt soon gonna have a whole term for it, complete with obligatory prescription med for just $149.95/week, yeah...


I HIGHLY reccommend Zielenziger's book on this.
http://www.shuttingoutthesun.com/

Part of it is also that both societies, ours and theirs, are so inhuman, anti-human, that one's own basic humanity causes them to be so repelled, so disgusted, that they simply REFUSE TO PARTICIPATE behind the bare minimum required to survive in a complex, technological society, which is more or less what one of my "issues" is, I find out sociopathic, inhuman society so personally revolting that just watching it makes me wanna puke.

Here in America, we do it a little differently though - yeah, get those student loans, that mountain of debt, that mortgage, car payment, mandatory insurance, bills bills bills, gotta pay the pusher man, gotta keep the credit rating, especially now when an employer or the insurance company can fuck you all up if it drops, pay and pay and pay and never do much but cover the interest, oh yes, the company store/truck system, taken on a wholesale social level to it's logical conclusion, workin 80 hours on a 40 hour salary, fuck that overtime, ha!

RUN little hamsters, RUN, spin that treadmill and enrich the elite, and when you can't run no more, suffer and die, cause all that extra money set aside for social security and retirement, HA!

What a sucker!

And so, some people don't play the game, or if they do, they cheat back, hard - it's the only logical thing to do.

Pouring sand in the gears all the while.

-Frem

I do not serve the Blind God.

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Thursday, September 2, 2010 12:08 PM

BYTEMITE


Frem: One of the friends I've met online is an American hikikomori.

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Thursday, September 2, 2010 12:29 PM

MINCINGBEAST


hikikomori? interesting. i like to call these fellows "omega males", which I find more dismissive and less wapanese. my generation is littered with lads who display emerging "hikikomori" traits. you know them: they're like Biff from Death of Salesman, but without ever leaving home. Plus, PS3s and teh pron.


i can understand disgust, but i can't understand withdrawal on that scale. modern life sucks, but is still probably probably peachy compared to ancient life. its a shame that for some the best response to the stress of it all is so...infantile. either the ranks of these half-lives will increase, or we'll adapt better and they will decrease. perhaps they're just the unlucky bastards caught in transition between two epochs?

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Thursday, September 2, 2010 3:23 PM

KANEMAN


Quote:

Originally posted by beatupplenty:
Yes we need a little more paid time off in this country. Maybe that's part of why a lot of people move so slow at work. We're just tired dang it.
But of course if we get more paid holiday time wages will go down and with prices the way they are who can afford that?
I also think people should also get more paid time off for bereavement when a spouse or child dies especially. Three days off with pay is not enough time to handle so many details and get yourself back together. I was lucky because I had already set up some vacation time earlier in the year. My husband died. I took care of the immediate business in those three days. Worked for a week and then had a week off during which I took care of as much remaining business as possible and cried a lot. I really think five to ten business days off would have been really beneficial, especially to collect myself emotionally.
Changes really need to be made in how employees are treated in this country.



Go work at getting a job that has good benies(either a corporation or even better the government), I never use all my Vacation-time, I do get bored, really,after 2 weeks off...that is good for me. Sure I use 3 or 4 sick days, but never 6 weeks. I lose no "money" by not taking my vacation time ..just time off. I can bank it up to so much(3 weeks...then lose it)...after that is my call, however I work for one of the evil corporations that DEMAND that people buy our "stuff" and then somehow have the money for desent bennies...Or like I said work for a liberal run government and get life long benefits on my-unchoosing-to-take-vacation-time back...I don't mind....

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Friday, September 3, 2010 6:29 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Byte, I agree; there are other factors at work. But that doesn’t make it irrelevant, just a bit LESS relevant in the equation, in my opinion.

Jim used to get paid for any off time he didn’t use during the year, which I thought was awful, because he NEVER too a day off or sick day, so as to save the money. Now they won’t pay them, and don’t carry over the holidays...for which I’m glad, ‘cuz it means he takes his vacation. I’d rather he get the time off than the money (which is an obsession for him).

Frem,
Quote:

big pharma is no doubt soon gonna have a whole term for it, complete with obligatory prescription med for just $149.95/week, yeah...
Right on. They’re good at it, aren’t they? When I see some of the ads for prescriptions, then the disclaimers, my thought is always: “Why in HELL would anyone want to take that, what with all the dangers (often even “death”) that it might cause??? I’d rather have trouble sleeping (or whatever), thank you!” We are a pop-a-pill society! Don’t DO something to improve whatever your problem is, pop a pill and keep on behaving in your same old unhealthy fashion, yes indeedee!

Beatup, I agree on all points. I’m stuck being bipolar, and most of us have an OVERwork ethic, so we take on all the stuff nobody else will...the end result was, for me, crash and burn and now on disability. The corporate life is NO place for a bipolar—gives us too much incentive to kill ourselves via overwork. In the support group I went to, those most able to control their symptoms had flexible jobs or low-key occupations, and ever since I became unable to work, my symptoms have subsided enormously.

My crash came about because I had the highest-paying job in my life, but it didn’t keep me busy. So I took on stuff on my own...six months into the job, asked the CEO how I was doing. “Great!” One week later he called me into his office and said it wasn’t going to work, that I was “trying too hard”. Given I’d never been fired and equated myself with my work, it made no sense and I landed in a severe depression. Once diagnosed, I looked back: I’d been hypomanic the entire six months...no wonder I made them uncomfortable!

Mining, I’m not convinced life today is that much better than before. Sure, survival was damned hard and the poor suffered greatly, but when I look at how complex our lives are, how little chance we have (or take) to stop and even be aware of what’s around us, how we’re drowned in paperwork (and it’s a lie that computers made it much less!), I tend to wonder...


Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off




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