I despised many of the things he did to our country. But he did at least one thing right, which I wish America could remember at this time:[quote]In the..."/>

REAL WORLD EVENT DISCUSSIONS

I agree with President Bush

POSTED BY: NIKI2
UPDATED: Sunday, September 19, 2010 09:05
SHORT URL:
VIEWED: 2180
PAGE 1 of 1

Monday, September 13, 2010 9:56 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


I despised many of the things he did to our country. But he did at least one thing right, which I wish America could remember at this time:
Quote:

In the aftermath of 9/11, Americans were angry, fearful and scrambling for answers.

In the days that followed the terrorist attacks, President George W. Bush and Congress prepared their response, starting to work on stronger counterterrorism measures and preparing for a war in Afghanistan, where the Taliban had housed al Qaeda networks for many years.

A few Americans turned their rage against Muslims who were living in the United States.

Within a few days, Muslims, as well as individuals mistakenly perceived to be Muslims, were attacked. The Sikh owner of a gas station in Mesa, Arizona, was killed by a man who went on to shoot a Lebanese clerk at another gas station.

Near Dallas, Texas, a man shot and killed a 46-year old Pakistani who owned a small grocery store. In Cleveland, Ohio, a man drove a Ford Mustang right through an Islamic center.

Nine years after 9/11, there is a lot for Americans to contemplate as they look back. Although people have focused a lot of attention on Bush's appearance before a group of New York firefighters at ground zero, another highly significant moment took place on September 17.

That day, at the Islamic Center in Washington, the president delivered a powerful message about the need to keep America's response to 9/11 from turning into a war against Muslims. This message was as important to his war on terrorism as the strategy of regime change, or pre-emptive war.

Unfortunately, this is a principle that has been slowly and dangerously undermined in recent weeks as a result of the controversy over a proposed Islamic cultural center and mosque a few blocks from ground zero.

Speaking at an emotionally charged moment, just six days after the attacks, Bush told the audience that it was vital for Americans to understand that the terrorists did not represent the Muslim tradition.

"Those who feel like they can intimidate our fellow citizens to take out their anger don't represent the best of America; they represent the worst of humankind, and they should be ashamed of that kind of behavior," Bush said.

The president reiterated his firm commitment to protecting the constitutional rights and honoring the important role of the Muslim community in the United States.

In no uncertain terms, Bush said: "The face of terror is not the true faith of Islam. That's not what Islam is all about. Islam is peace. These terrorists don't represent peace. They represent evil and war."

America, he said, "counts millions of Muslims amongst our citizens, and Muslims make an incredibly valuable contribution to our country. Muslims are doctors, lawyers, law professors, members of the military, entrepreneurs, shopkeepers, moms and dads."

Many Muslim leaders were impressed by the president's speech as well as by how most Americans were responding to the trauma.

"Americans have shown great maturity," Sayyid Syeed, the secretary general of the Islamic Society of North America, told the media. He reported the calls he was receiving expressing support for his community greatly outweighed the hate crimes.

Over the coming years, Bush stuck with the argument that he made on September 17. While Bush would come under criticism for many aspects of his war on terrorism -- including policies such as the use of interrogation tactics that critics called torture -- he continued to be very clear in his defense of Muslims.

The president returned to the Islamic Center on June 2007, reminding his audience of his earlier speech: "We gather, with friendship and respect, to reaffirm that pledge -- and to renew our determination to stand together in the pursuit of freedom and peace. We come to express our appreciation for a faith that has enriched civilization for centuries."

Bush's philosophy is now under fire. In response to the proposal to build an Islamic center near ground zero in New York City, a heated national debate has unfolded about Muslims in America. While some focused their criticism on whether this was a proper project so close to the site of the attacks, many others turned it into a different kind of discussion.

Some national Republican leaders, including Sarah Palin and Newt Gingrich, have made provocative comments, helping to make it a national issue. Gingrich warned of the "radical Islamists" he said were behind the project, comparing it to Nazis putting up a sign next to the Holocaust Museum in Washington.

At the local level, the debate has taken an even more dangerous turn.

A Florida pastor, Terry Jones, announced he would burn copies of the Quran. Even when he came under criticism from a broad spectrum of leaders, including Gen. David Petraeus, he did not at first desist.

Palin did condemn the pastor by tweeting that "book burning is antithetical to American ideals," but then tied the two issues together when she went on to say that "people have a constitutional right to burn a Koran if they want to, but doing so is insensitive and an unnecessary provocation -- much like building a mosque at ground zero."

Although the pastor agreed to cancel the Quran burning after a call from Secretary of Defense Robert Gates warning it would put American lives at risk, the incident stoked the fires of hatred.

If this kind of inflammatory rhetoric continues, it will erode a central and crucial principle in the war on terrorism. It also contradicts the nation's constitutional and pluralistic traditions -- the very traditions we want to defend from terrorism -- while doing irreparable harm abroad.

When Bush spoke at the Islamic Center, he took a pivotal step in defining how he wanted to defend the nation and go about punishing the aggressors who killed thousands of civilians. His message cannot be forgotten.

Should local and national debate move in a different direction, we will be paying the cost as a nation for decades to come by destroying our image in the Muslim world, thus playing into the hands of the terrorists.

We'd be abandoning the very best ideals that our country has to offer.

I wish Bush would come out of hiding and reiterate his message; it would carry weight, even with those who despised him. Obama CANNOT do it, anything pro-Muslim, pro-Islam that comes out of his mouth is fodder for calling him all the things they are already calling him. Republicans won't stand up and do it; Democrats who do it are called anti-American, terrorist sympathizers, etc.

Bush could help a lot. I wish he would.


Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off





NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Monday, September 13, 2010 10:17 AM

HERO


Quote:

Originally posted by Niki2:
I wish Bush would come out of hiding and reiterate his message; it would carry weight, even with those who despised him.


He's hardly in hiding. He's been out doing small scale events supporting the troops and championing many of his personal causes. He's avoiding major events and publicity, like the release of his book, because he does not want to upstage the election.

I think you'll seem him come mid-November no matter the outcome of the election.

In the meantime I give you this: http://www.michigandaily.com/content/bush-visits-mosque-urges-toleranc
e


Notice the date.

H

"Hero. I have come to respect you." "I am forced to agree with Hero here."- Chrisisall, 2009.
"I would rather not ignore your contributions." Niki2, 2010.

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Monday, September 13, 2010 10:27 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Link didn't work. I hope you're right and he speaks up in November or soon thereafter. I can easily understand why he wouldn't want to before the midterms, but we need him to take a stand to help us get out of this mentality.


Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off




NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Monday, September 13, 2010 10:55 AM

THEHAPPYTRADER


I'd like to see Bush speak up as well, though frankly, I don't expect liberals to treat him any better than conservatives treat Obama. Still, it'd be nice to see someone on the right speak up on this. Maybe after the competition is over in November our government will work together a little more. I ain't expecting much, but it'd be nice.

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Monday, September 13, 2010 12:20 PM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important


Hello,

I don't think our Ex-President has any special responsibility to speak up. For good and ill, he's played his part. It is We The People who need to speak up, and we need to do so by not choosing Fear or Hate. We need to Buy American. Not recycled products imported from the worst moments in history, wrapped up in our worst impulses, and sold at a price we can't afford.

--Anthony

Due to the use of Naomi 3.3.2 Beta web filtering, the following people may need to private-message me if they wish to contact me: Auraptor, Kaneman, Piratenews. I apologize for the inconvenience.

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Monday, September 13, 2010 1:50 PM

CHRISISALL


Quote:

Originally posted by AnthonyT:
We need to Buy American. Not recycled products imported from the worst moments in history, wrapped up in our worst impulses, and sold at a price we can't afford.


Tony, that just does not compute!



The laughing Chrisisall


NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Monday, September 13, 2010 2:05 PM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important


Hello,

Now I am fondly remembering Forbidden Planet.

I mean we must invest in ideas that represent the principles of our nation, and reject attitudes of Fear and Hate.

We are the consumers, and people will sell us whatever we prove willing to buy. If we buy Hate, they'll sell Hate. If we reject it, they'll start selling a product we enjoy.

--Anthony

Due to the use of Naomi 3.3.2 Beta web filtering, the following people may need to private-message me if they wish to contact me: Auraptor, Kaneman, Piratenews. I apologize for the inconvenience.

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Monday, September 13, 2010 2:12 PM

CHRISISALL




It's not as one-way as you present, IMO.

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Monday, September 13, 2010 2:13 PM

THEHAPPYTRADER


Make's sense. I mean, we were sick of the crap and 'bought' Obama's whole 'hope and change' notion and elected him (not that I'm convinced it was a good idea). If someone can sell us jobs and actually deliver rather than speak of jobs "saved and created" while unemployment keeps getting worse... that I think most folks would buy from just about anyone.

edit: got a mite off topic there, I'll relate. Bad things, like resentment and terrorist, come from poverty, so selling jobs will make things better all around.

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Monday, September 13, 2010 4:22 PM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important


Quote:

Originally posted by chrisisall:


It's not as one-way as you present, IMO.



Hello,

Well Chris, show the other side?

--Anthony

Due to the use of Naomi 3.3.2 Beta web filtering, the following people may need to private-message me if they wish to contact me: Auraptor, Kaneman, Piratenews. I apologize for the inconvenience.

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Monday, September 13, 2010 7:08 PM

6IXSTRINGJACK


Just as I believe Catholicism in general was used as a means of destroying religion in a lot of Christian people's lives, I believe the "good" muslims are used to show that there aren't people behind that movement that HATE us, and we have a government that is more and more willing to let their influence over our culture be cultivated.

We're all being played.


Yes... Jewish Hollywood controls the media, but do I think my Uncle who is Jewish or his half Jewish kids are in on it? Hell no.



Whether or not you want to face the facts, there are a lot of people with have-nots over there that live day to day with nothing to call their own at night except for the sand in their asscracks when they go to bed.

All of that Duterotemy crap from the bible that made parents kill their Christian children for converting some thousands of years ago in a largely Anglo culture is happening right now today in the Middle East, and it can't be denied that some of that is making its way here in our "melting pot" culture.

Is it unfair to label all Muslims as savages?

Absolutely....

But should we just welcome them with open arms and force ourselves to be completely oblivious to any ulterior motives, particularly from anyone who openly preaches the practice here?

No!

You Nikki, likely wouldn't allow a Jehova's Witness into your home and waste several hours of your life. I would like to think that the same could be said about somebody going door to door giving out free Querans.




This isn't a question of religious oppression Nikki. These people behind this movement are no different than the Jesse Jacksons of the world. They're looking to give anyone with opposing views a big you by building this masque where they want to build it, and they're confident that our messed up system of law and zero morals and ethics will allow them to do it.

They're simply sending a message back home to poppa Osama that things are going just as planned.



Do I believe that the people who would practice their faith there are in on it?

No.... in probably 99% of the cases......

It doesn't change the severity of the grand gestures implied.












EDITED TO ADD:

Love the title of this post. Pure paradoxes are a surefire way of getting people to read a post.

"A government is a body of people, usually notably ungoverned."

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Monday, September 13, 2010 8:22 PM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important


Hello Six,

The problem I have is that it doesn't matter why they want to build their building. People seem to think that Islam is evil and we need to 'do something.'

Well, even if I were to grant the preposterous notion that Islam is evil and this Community Center is a crescent-and-star shaped F-U to the American people, it wouldn't change things one whit.

If Satan himself was building a temple to the Fallen in that Burlington Coat Factory, I wouldn't want him denied.

'Cause the moment we compromise our rules to get rid of undesirables, we show the crack in our armor, and all who wish us harm have a means to hurt us.

I'm not in any rush to destroy this Nation before our enemies can do so. Creating hate for a religion? Allowing discrimination against them? Changing the rules in order to get at them? Treating folks any different because of their God?

Hell, we'll just block the enemy without only to build temples to the enemy within, shrines of hatred and oppression built in our hearts, with daily calls to worship at the altar of our own defilement.

I will not advocate the destruction of America, not even by inches, not even to stop a perceived threat, no matter how scared or angry I get. Whatever tenacity we use to adhere to our principles will equal the strength of our shield against harm. If we falter, then we make ourselves defenseless.

--Anthony

Due to the use of Naomi 3.3.2 Beta web filtering, the following people may need to private-message me if they wish to contact me: Auraptor, Kaneman, Piratenews. I apologize for the inconvenience.

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Tuesday, September 14, 2010 2:27 AM

HERO


Quote:

Originally posted by Niki2:
I despised many of the things he did to our country...I wish Bush would come out of hiding...Bush could help a lot. I wish he would.


Clearly you regret Obama and want a return to President Bush. At least under Bush you could hate the man but still be secure in the knowledge that the country was not going to be attacked again and he would chart a rocky, but ultimately safe course through rough seas.

I suggest you support a Constitutional amendment called the 'Do-over' clause that allows the public to bring the old President back periodically if they don't like what the new President is doing.

H

"Hero. I have come to respect you." "I am forced to agree with Hero here."- Chrisisall, 2009.
"I would rather not ignore your contributions." Niki2, 2010.

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Tuesday, September 14, 2010 5:02 AM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important


Quote:


Originally posted by Hero:
Clearly you regret Obama and want a return to President Bush. At least under Bush you could hate the man but still be secure in the knowledge that the country was not going to be attacked again and he would chart a rocky, but ultimately safe course through rough seas.



Hello,

http://www.ncsip.org/docs/MA45.JPG

--Anthony


Due to the use of Naomi 3.3.2 Beta web filtering, the following people may need to private-message me if they wish to contact me: Auraptor, Kaneman, Piratenews. I apologize for the inconvenience.

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Tuesday, September 14, 2010 5:09 AM

KPO

Sometimes you own the libs. Sometimes, the libs own you.


lol

It's not personal. It's just war.

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Tuesday, September 14, 2010 7:08 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Interesting thread. I very much appreciate the rational views expressed.

Trader, it would be interesting to see how the left treated Bush if he came out and said the things he said after 9/11 about tolerance and American ideals. I’ll bet you dollars to donuts they’d applaud and support what he says. As long as he didn’t get on the subject of politics and so forth.

No, of course I didn’t say I wanted Bush back...gawd forbid! I said that despite the fact that I abhorred many of the things he did to this country, I admired what he said on this subject. That you get “clearly” either means you were teasing, snarking, or blind to what I wrote.

Anthony, I agree completely with your first post—it’s not his RESPONSIBILITY as ex-Prez, but I see it as his responsibility as a voice of authority and as a human being. He is OBVIOUSLY under not requirement to do so and I don’t blame him if he doesn’t, I just think it would be a great thing to do. Notice I’m avoiding any cracks about Bush’s responsibilities or personality.

I also agree it’s up to us, bottom line, and I do put responsibility on those of authority to, if not speak up, at least not increase the controversy with IRRESPONSIBLE statements...which is the case right now.

I agree, Trader, that jobs would help...there AND here...especially insofar as they would take people’s minds off something ugly and put them on something positive.

6ix, nobody has to let anyone of ANY other faith into their homes, and you know perfectly well that has nothing to do with the topic. It’s about letting all Americans practice their own faiths in their own way and not labeling all Muslims terrorists, or Islam a religion of terror. That’s all. Nobody “has” to do anything personal about anything, just not do anything harmful to others.
Quote:

These people behind this movement are no different than the Jesse Jacksons of the world. They're looking to give anyone with opposing views a big you by building this masque where they want to build it, and they're confident that our messed up system of law and zero morals and ethics will allow them to do it.
...that is absolutely absurd, IN MY OPINION.

The community center is not a “mosque”, we’ve been through that one already. You can call the YMCA or any other faith’s community center a “church” if it has prayer meetings in it, etc. We covered that in detail. The community center would be open to the COMMUNITY, and includes a 500-seat auditorium, theater, performing arts center, fitness center, swimming pool, basketball court, childcare area, bookstore, culinary school, art studio, food court, September 11 attacks memorial, and prayer space. That in no way constitutes a “mosque”, nor does it constitute a “masque”. As to our system of law and “zero moral values and ethics” NOT mean we should allow the community center to be built...in tht our entire system of law, moral values and ethics stand for ALL AMERICANS having equal rights, property rights among them? That’s a completely fallible concept.
Quote:

They're simply sending a message back home to poppa Osama that things are going just as planned.
is laughable, in that the person who began the plans and is the titular “head” of the plan is a moderate who has traveled extensively FOR our government and whose entire history consists of building bridges. If you bothered to know the facts, your statements would have more value to me. But they are the popular rhetoric, talking points which have no grounding in fact, only emotion and blindness. Yes, we ARE all being played; especially those who have bought into the product that’s being sold.

Anthony said it best:
Quote:

'Cause the moment we compromise our rules to get rid of undesirables, we show the crack in our armor, and all who wish us harm have a means to hurt us.

I will not advocate the destruction of America, not even by inches, not even to stop a perceived threat, no matter how scared or angry I get. Whatever tenacity we use to adhere to our principles will equal the strength of our shield against harm. If we falter, then we make ourselves defenseless.

Hero
Quote:

secure in the knowledge that the country was not going to be attacked again and he would chart a rocky, but ultimately safe course through rough seas.
Is a pathetic statement, given that he helped in large part build the hate against us by involving us in two wars, inivading other nations, and we WERE attacked again, just not on such a huge scale. Add in all the times we were lied to in order to make us THINK there were attacks planned/carried out, and your argument doesn’t hold. I won’t go into the rest of the reasons Bush was horrific for this country.

The British have the “vote of no confidence” which I wish we had; if we’d had it, Bush would have been gone far sooner than he was, and the mess left for the rest of us to clean up wouldn’t be so huge.

Anthony, excellent, very on-point link. I would too, were it not so sad and so representative of the mood of the country today.


Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off




NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Tuesday, September 14, 2010 7:28 AM

CHRISISALL


Quote:

Originally posted by 6ixStringJack:

You Nikki, likely wouldn't allow a Jehova's Witness into your home and waste several hours of your life. I would like to think that the same could be said about somebody going door to door giving out free Querans.

I HAVE talked to the Wittness, many times in fact. And I WOULD talk to Door-to-door Muslims as well. I ENJOY poking polite holes in superstitions.


The laughing Chrisisall


NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Tuesday, September 14, 2010 8:41 AM

HERO


Quote:

Originally posted by chrisisall:
And I WOULD talk to Door-to-door Muslims as well. I ENJOY poking polite holes in superstitions.


I'm sure they would enjoy the conversation, especially the part where they decapitate you or detonate their suicide vests.

H

"Hero. I have come to respect you." "I am forced to agree with Hero here."- Chrisisall, 2009.
"I would rather not ignore your contributions." Niki2, 2010.

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Tuesday, September 14, 2010 8:44 AM

CHRISISALL


That's not funny, Hero.

It's NOT! Stop snickering. I said STOP!!!!!


The laughing Chrisisall


NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Tuesday, September 14, 2010 6:49 PM

6IXSTRINGJACK


Quote:

Originally posted by Niki2:
6ix, nobody has to let anyone of ANY other faith into their homes, and you know perfectly well that has nothing to do with the topic. It’s about letting all Americans practice their own faiths in their own way and not labeling all Muslims terrorists, or Islam a religion of terror. That’s all. Nobody “has” to do anything personal about anything, just not do anything harmful to others.
Quote:

These people behind this movement are no different than the Jesse Jacksons of the world. They're looking to give anyone with opposing views a big you by building this masque where they want to build it, and they're confident that our messed up system of law and zero morals and ethics will allow them to do it.
...that is absolutely absurd, IN MY OPINION.

The community center is not a “mosque”, we’ve been through that one already. You can call the YMCA or any other faith’s community center a “church” if it has prayer meetings in it, etc. We covered that in detail. The community center would be open to the COMMUNITY, and includes a 500-seat auditorium, theater, performing arts center, fitness center, swimming pool, basketball court, childcare area, bookstore, culinary school, art studio, food court, September 11 attacks memorial, and prayer space. That in no way constitutes a “mosque”, nor does it constitute a “masque”. As to our system of law and “zero moral values and ethics” NOT mean we should allow the community center to be built...in tht our entire system of law, moral values and ethics stand for ALL AMERICANS having equal rights, property rights among them? That’s a completely fallible concept.
Quote:

They're simply sending a message back home to poppa Osama that things are going just as planned.
is laughable, in that the person who began the plans and is the titular “head” of the plan is a moderate who has traveled extensively FOR our government and whose entire history consists of building bridges. If you bothered to know the facts, your statements would have more value to me. But they are the popular rhetoric, talking points which have no grounding in fact, only emotion and blindness. Yes, we ARE all being played; especially those who have bought into the product that’s being sold.



Perhaps a little background is in order to make my point on this topic.... My apologies for being vague and just expecting people to see the parallels without explaining them. Afterall, we're far from a hive-mind THANK GOD!

About 15 or so years ago, there was a very beautiful building in the suburb I lived in. Kind of out of place, since it was in a residential neighborhood. It seems it was built and then just sat there doing nothing. Fast-forward a bit of time and Mr. Sharpton himself was facilitating the purchase of this building to make a "black" church right in the center of a vastly predominant white suburb. Sure, the excellent argument could be made that this large church-like building wasn't being used and could be converted into a church very easily, and given that we are a modern society that 'should' be above petty race issues, there should be no qualms about who attends a church wherever it is.

Funny thing was though, nobody who attended this church after the purchase lived anywhere remotely close to it and they were all bussed in. I'm sure that there were more convenient localities for this to have been made, but I'm sure that Sharpton and Jackson wouldn't have had much of anything to do with the funding of "just another church in the ghetto". There's already a church on every block, along with a gun store and a liquor store, right?

That's not to say that they aren't wonderful philanthropic men when they desire to be and that they don't donate even money out of their own pockets to support their local churches. This was something different though....

The creation of this particular church in this particular location was designed to be nothing more than a big middle finger to "whitey", plain and simple.

Shortly therafter, in the middle of the night, somebody decided it would be a good idea to go to the church and write "KKK" all over the brick walls with filthy oil that would be very difficult and likely expensive to remove. It was all people at school were talking about for a week. One kid I knew even "admitted" to being envolved to me. I told him to keep his mouth shut about that and not to go around telling anybody that, whether it was true or not. I never heard from another person that he was involved down the road, so thankfully for himself I believed he took my advice.

I don't think he did it though. There was no KKK in my area. There were simply "white" suburbs and "black" suburbs, closer to the city, and aside from the occasional white kids looking to score some low grade schwag becuase they didn't have suburban hookups with the good stuff (a very symbiotic relationship given the prices these ignorant kids were paying), everybody just kinda stayed in their own area. I've never heard of any beat-downs of any ratial nature in or near any community I've ever lived in. This wasn't Texas in the 80's or before.

My personal thoughts on the matter was that the KKK fiasco was an inside job. A mini 9/11 if you will, if you're the type that belives that there was much more to that disastrous day than we will ever know about. What better way to keep their own two faces in the spotlight than having to hear what they thought about the heinous act? (Though I gotta admit that Mr. Sharpton has an awesome head of hair. I could only wish that my mane looks that good when I go gray )




I guess all that was just to say that there are certain reasons why organizations behind things do the things they do. A lot of drama was created for no other sake than to create drama.

I don't fault people for wanting to worship whatever religion they want to, and if I'm not mistaken, I don't believe I ever said in the above post that the Masque shouldn't be built wherever they want to build it as long as they have the funds and everything is legal.

Just let's please.... not forget the meaning behind the gesture by the organizations funding it. It's not the individual innocient worshiper of any religion that we need to fear. Hell... chances are that these are the very people that will give you the shirt off of your back if you are in need.

Building this masque where they want to build it is a symbol. It's also a message.







All I'm asking is that we stop pretending that there aren't truly people out there that do wish us harm. I'm not saying obsess about it, for most of us would be powerless to do anything about anything anyways, even if only due to our lack of knowledge of how the system works.

It's very apparent that nothing will ever be done about anything until it's "too late".

My only advice to people is to make sure to have a few months of water and canned goods in the house and rotate the stock. Keep a firearm or two, locked up safely away from any untrained children in the house in case you ever need to protect what you've built to support your loved ones.

Something is happening today. It's been happening for a long time now, even well before I was born. A shifting of the tides is coming and I think our days of blissful American Idol watching ignorance is coming to an end.

It very likely may not be the wrath of Muslim savages, but could be something as simple as the ecosystem becoming completely unbalanced by what we have done to it. A deep thinker like myself could probably paint 100 different "end of the world" scenarios with you over a few beers.

I would just hope that people will have learned from their foolish spending habits when all was well and we used our equity for ATMs and built up hundreds of thousands of college and credit card debt that we could never hope to pay off with our part time pizza delievery jobs today.


Save those acorns before the winter gets here. It ain't summer anymore, but winter hasn't come yet. Still plenty of time to do the right thing to be able to say that you've done everything in your power to ensure the safety of you and yours if the infrastructure ever gives out.



The best thing about being prepared???? Being able to enjoy life and relationships outside of these paranoid thoughts when you have all of your bases covered.

Like I said... I haven't watched the news or read much of anything about what's going on in a very long time. Why weigh myself down with the severe weight of things that I could never possibly hope to have any control over?

No.... I'm safe and secure, and through that security I can now use my talents and limited power to help people I know and to enjoy their company without worrying about who's president or what's going on.

I'm done worrying about the whole of a country that has sold itself out to the tune of 13Trillion some dollars and counting.

I'm worrying about only what I can control and the future of me and mine.

I've never lived so Zen.

I recommend that all of you try it.

Later,
~6ix








"A government is a body of people, usually notably ungoverned."

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Wednesday, September 15, 2010 4:33 AM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important


Quote:


Just let's please.... not forget the meaning behind the gesture by the organizations funding it.

Building this masque where they want to build it is a symbol. It's also a message.

All I'm asking is that we stop pretending that there aren't truly people out there that do wish us harm.



Hello,

I see you are concerned that the American people have forgotten that some people out there mean us harm. I want to assure you that the American people have not forgotten this.

I see you want us to be concerned about the symbol of the building. I want to assure you that if we give no thought to that supposed symbolism, our lives will not be impacted by it.

I see you are concerned that we are ignoring 'the message' of the building. I want to assure you that ignoring it is the best way to make it impotent.

Since you brought up the KKK, let me give you a hint about how to deal with a burning cross on your front yard.

First, call the disinterested authorities. Who knows? They may not be corrupt. Either way, it costs nothing.

Second, get some friends and neighbors to secure the perimeter. You want to make sure the culprits are gone and won't be hurting anyone.

Third, get some fire extinguishing equipment, or a garden hose on site. Fire safety is important. You don't want the fire to spread.

Fourth, get out the skewers and the marshmallows. Lemonade and Punch, too! Everyone have a party.

Now, Six, try to guess which of the four steps makes the whole process of intimidation pointless.

Quote:


My only advice to people is to make sure to have a few months of water and canned goods in the house and rotate the stock. Keep a firearm or two, locked up safely away from any untrained children in the house in case you ever need to protect what you've built to support your loved ones.



My father would say that such precautions are sensible advice for any age. And he'd be right. Of course, he grew up with the daily threat of the Big Red and the Nuclear Dead. Nowadays, we can worry about the collapse of government and infrastructure. I haven't decided which is more fun. I have decided which has something, anything, to do with Muslims.

Neither.

Quote:


It very likely may not be the wrath of Muslim savages



I see we agree. The noise about the Community Center is distracting us from any real problems we may need to address. Thank goodness you are part of the solution and not part of the problem.

Quote:


I'm worrying about only what I can control



Then we can also agree to, "forget the meaning behind the gesture by the organizations funding it."


Amen.


--Anthony





Due to the use of Naomi 3.3.2 Beta web filtering, the following people may need to private-message me if they wish to contact me: Auraptor, Kaneman, Piratenews. I apologize for the inconvenience.

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Wednesday, September 15, 2010 7:27 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


If anyone thinks they are prepared for revolution or government collapse or invasion, they're kiddng themselves. Were any of those to happen, all the food, water, guns, etc. would keep you safe. Build a bomb shelter and crawl in, that's your best chance. I choose not to live like that. We stock food and water in case of earthquakes anyway, and Jim has several guns, but I don't kid myself that it will keep us safe in the case of a coming apocalypse, whatever form it might take. Better to make peace with yourself, live a good life and enjoy your life.

If you really think you can "control" much in your life, you're running around with eyes wide shut. You could be killed on the freeway tomorrow, or mugged by a--GASP--white person!!!

I see fewer conspiracies than some, and I don't think the cross-burning you mentioned as a conspiracy by those you accused. I dislike Sharpton and Jackson pretty strongly, as I think they ride racial problems or perceived ones) to get attention. But there is plenty of hate running around, and would be especially toward a black school plunked down in a white neighborhood, not to have to look for conspiracies. I don't believe it was the KKK, it's perfectly reasonabl that some kids--especially as it was a SCHOO, who did it.

Mostly, I agree with Anthony.

By the bye, if you have any actual FACTS that prove the community center is a "message", I'd like to hear them. Given the actual mosque they've been using for over twenty years lost its lease recently, and they had the money to buy the land and put up a community center that can benefit the entire neighborhood and help Muslims and non-Muslims get to know one another, it seems perfectly reasonabl to me. I don't see boogeymen in the shadows all the time.

And I don't NEED those boogeymen, as someone pointed out
Quote:

This much we know: America needs its demons. We need our enemies, our menacing and dark-eyed nemesis, that foreign and terrifying thing we do not understand and against which we must rally and wail, push and pule, fight and destroy.

This is, as the legend goes, how we define ourselves, how we give our tribe and its happily flawed capitalist/Christian system meaning, purpose and a reason to kill anyone who dares to disagree. Too young as a country to know ourselves at any depth, too mal-educated to have any real and lasting confidence, we just lash and burn, too afraid to shut up and hear the quiet roar of our own grand irrelevance. Same as it ever was? Like you even have to ask.

Communists. Arabs. The Japanese. Blacks. Native Americans. Hippies. Gays. "Gooks." Immigrants. Chinamen. The poor. Women. Teenagers. Vegans. Science. What's the problem with this nation? What's really eating at our soul and threatening our honest love of an angry God, apple pie and giant homoerotic firearms? It ain't us. It's them. They're trying to mess with our heads, steal our freedom, impregnate our virgins, poison the water supply. Damn them to hell, and where's my shotgun?




Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off




NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Wednesday, September 15, 2010 7:38 AM

FREMDFIRMA



Pfaugh, they own the property, and it's correctly zoned, they can build whatever the hell they want there, far as I care.

These radical asshats clamouring for attention, that's what they WANT, attention, and every time we take them seriously, react with panic and disorder, swatting flies with a sledgehammer, WE HAND THEM A GIMME - shit, no navy, no airforce, and yet they convinced us, in our infantile STUPIDITY, to go over there and be their pop-up targets, like dumbasses.

The effective maximum range of an Ak-47 is about 300 yards or so, the Atlantic Ocean is a bit wider than that, last I recall, so why don't we just get the fuck outta range and call it a wash - and instead of teaching our citizenry to scream and wave their arms around screaming at the mere sight of a weapon, to drop a knee and start lickin whenever they see a jackboot, maybe shitcan this security THEATRE bullshit and let them see to themselves, for it was that very attitude that allowed a dozen imbiciles with box cutters to kill 3000 people - you don't piss yourself and scream and cry for a cop who's too busy looting someone with a bullshit forfeiture to get him a shiny new car, or makin ticket quota so they can afford a big new HQ with all the trimmings, you fucking kill them - then you call the CORONER to come collect the stiff.

That's the american way.

What these folk wanna do on their own land, with their own money, that's up to them, just as it should be up to YOU what to do on YOUR own land, with YOUR own money - fuck this demolition-man run your life shit, run other peoples lives, let them do their thing, symbol or not, so what of it, ain't like I gotta see a buncha fuckin murder-god crosses every damn day, several times a day, anywhere I go, is it now ?

Fuck em, let em do as they will, safe and secure in the knowledge that anyone trying that shit on americans, even muslim americans will get you killed even quicker than stickin the barrel in your mouth and pullin the trigger.

And till they come over here and try it, LAUGH at their incompetent, pathetic little smack talkin asses, cause to take em serious only hands em legitimacy, and ain't no terrorist "attack" on these shores up till 9-11 (and I have.. QUESTIONS about that one) ever succeeded without the help of our own fucking intel agencies, yanno, the guys who GAVE Ramzi Yousef and KSM a working bomb with an expert to wire it, cause not a one of em could build a fucking pipe-bomb unassisted...

WE are our own worst enemy, if you wanna be honest about it.

-Frem

I do not serve the Blind God.

NOTIFY: N   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Wednesday, September 15, 2010 8:02 AM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:


I guess all that was just to say that there are certain reasons why organizations behind things do the things they do. A lot of drama was created for no other sake than to create drama.



Then you'd certainly agree that there's a lot more behind the organizing and running of the Tea Parties than they'd like us to believe, right? I mean, these AREN'T just grass-roots organizations that have spontaneously sprung up to express anger and defend liberty; they really ARE being orchestrated by big money behind the scenes, pushing a definite political agenda.

You'll agree with me on that, correct?

AURaptor's Greatest Hits:

Friday, May 28, 2010 - 20:32 To AnthonyT:
Go fuck yourself.
On this matter, make no mistake. I want you to go fuck yourself long and hard, as well as anyone who agrees with you. I got no use for you.

Friday, May 28, 2010 - 18:26 To President Obama:
Mr. President, you're a god damn, mother fucking liar.
Fuck you, you cock sucking community activist piece of shit.
... go fuck yourself, Mr. President.


NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Wednesday, September 15, 2010 7:43 PM

MAGONSDAUGHTER


Quote:

Originally posted by Niki2:
If anyone thinks they are prepared for revolution or government collapse or invasion, they're kiddng themselves. Were any of those to happen, all the food, water, guns, etc. would keep you safe. Build a bomb shelter and crawl in, that's your best chance. I choose not to live like that. We stock food and water in case of earthquakes anyway, and Jim has several guns, but I don't kid myself that it will keep us safe in the case of a coming apocalypse, whatever form it might take. Better to make peace with yourself, live a good life and enjoy your life.


yeah, I think "The Road' (the book, haven't seent he movie) made nonsense of all that. Doesn't matter if you have ammo or guns, or food or water, pretty soon they'll all run out and people will eat each other.

Okay, that is extreme.

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Thursday, September 16, 2010 2:11 AM

FREMDFIRMA



I thought that book was kinda pathetic, myself.

Anyhow, look, supplies and tools are damn handy, and it's a right smart idea to have a stock, but knowledge is both handier, more portable, and more valuable.

Think about it, in the middle of that massive blackout, the one guy you know who can actually FIX a generator, without having to order parts, who can come over with some hand tools, duct tape and bailing wire, and have you up and running in a couple minutes...

THAT guy can name his freakin price, ehe ?
(For the record, it was a plugged air intake, mind)

But even more valuable in a crisis, is one thing.

Allies.

Even someone sorta clueless and mechanically inept can use a damn shovel or a hoe, can shout an alarm when some ravager is sneakin up on you, cause you gotta sleep some time and this lone wolf shit is pure suck anyways, especially when as smart and crafty as you are, age and hard use has crept up on you in the dark and you just ain't as quick or as mobile as you once were.

When it comes right down to it, the best resource to have... is people.
Enough people can make the tools, replace or relearn the knowledge, rebuild things, foster and repair a community, can you do that alone, hell no!

As an experiment, we held a contest on the fastest way to restore 120V AC power in an emergency, and while I wasn't up to the grunt work myself, my concept - as fashioned by a couple young college geeks, won the day, cause all you need is one truck and a single device.

Curious ?

Pull the battery, alternator, belts/pulleys and cigarette lighter out of a wrecked truck, use a wind-catcher of any kind, in this case an "egg beater" windmill which was grossly inefficient, but effective enough for being slapped together out of junk, and ran the alternator belt to the pivot using two different size pulleys for torque and max rpm, then ran the alternator to the battery, hooked up the cigarette lighter and plugged in an el cheapo DC power inverter, of which I have many just for such trickery, and viola, emergency power.

Shit, you wanna get cute you can rig a stationary or exercise bicycle to the alternator and muscle power that bastard, but imma lazy old bastard yanno.

That kinda know-how, it takes no weight or space, but is more valuable a currency than you could possibly carry, and can buy you the one thing even more imporant... allies.

While the lone wolfs hole up in their shelters alone and miserable, I'll be having a town founding party, that for damned sure.

-Frem

I do not serve the Blind God.

NOTIFY: N   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Thursday, September 16, 2010 11:14 AM

6IXSTRINGJACK


Quote:

Originally posted by Kwicko:
Then you'd certainly agree that there's a lot more behind the organizing and running of the Tea Parties than they'd like us to believe, right? I mean, these AREN'T just grass-roots organizations that have spontaneously sprung up to express anger and defend liberty; they really ARE being orchestrated by big money behind the scenes, pushing a definite political agenda.

You'll agree with me on that, correct?



I'm an equal opportunity hater man... Of course I'll agree with you on that.

The puppetmasters on both sides got a majority of the folk on lock down, giving out one promise or another.

It's all fabricated....

Trust me... you'll be a lot healthier when you don't concern yourself with these events we have no control over. Listening to the news, you might believe we're on the verge of another Depression, if we're not already there.

that...

Any whiny bitches that really believe this is a depression now have another thing coming.

I pledge from this moment that I will not inform myself of world events that I have no control over until they come knocking at my doorstep.

While you're all out there grasping at phantoms, I'm over here kicking back and relaxing knowing that I've done everything in my power to not have to worry about anything.

Seriously...... this forum isn't any different today than it was years ago since Bush was prez and I was rooting for impeachment. All the chicken littles worried about the sky falling from only their own perspective, along with very little patience for a differing opinion and an over-abundance of snide remarks from either "side".

Don't ya'all got someting better to do with all that energy?

"A government is a body of people, usually notably ungoverned."

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Thursday, September 16, 2010 4:57 PM

FREMDFIRMA



Well, there's keepin the sky FROM falling, and kickin it back up their one tiny little piece at a time, such as one can.


-F

NOTIFY: N   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Thursday, September 16, 2010 9:31 PM

CATPIRATE


Your enhancing the Stockholm syndrome Niki. Your weak. If someone walked up to you and punched you in the mouth. You would submit in an instance. Then blame yourself for being there then understand the perp. Listen most people are sheep, some are wolves, and a few are the noble sheep dog. Ok In my own family there are weak people who have been victimized. That mosque is enhancing the Stockholm syndrome. Now the weak are with us for eternity. But don't hold back the strong from doing right. Bush did that with sending troops to jail so he was a weak president. He appeased the libs on that one, the mexicans with home loans, and tying the hands of troops for the muslim world. Democrats are traitors just for votes. The republicans are more sneaky about selling America out.

Wisdom is nothing more than healed pain.

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Friday, September 17, 2010 1:49 AM

DICKCHENEY




^Dumbest post ever.^



Go Fuck Yourself!

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Friday, September 17, 2010 3:53 AM

6IXSTRINGJACK


Quote:

Originally posted by Fremdfirma:

Well, there's keepin the sky FROM falling, and kickin it back up their one tiny little piece at a time, such as one can.


-F



You're the exception to the rule Frem.

Most people in here or anywhere in real life don't have what it takes to really make a difference. Me included.

For most it's a bunch of waving of hands in the air and telling everyone else in earshot that their way is the right way, while never doing a thing about it other than complaining.

"A government is a body of people, usually notably ungoverned."

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Friday, September 17, 2010 6:45 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


--you're almost right, Dick; perhaps not THE dumbest, but damned close. Damn, you guys are just full of guffaw-inspiring statements this morning!
Quote:

Stockholm syndrome is a term used to describe a paradoxical psychological phenomenon wherein hostages express adulation and have positive feelings towards their captors that appear irrational in light of the danger or risk endured by the victims, essentially mistaking a lack of abuse from their captors as an act of kindness.
VICTIMS, little one, victims. I have never in my life felt victimized by Muslims; those I've known have been no different than any other people.

As to weak; no, I defend myself quite nicely when needed, thank you. I put a spiked heel through the shoe of a guy who got fresh once; the difference is I don't run around putting forth violence as the answer to everything. And I don't trash people because of their religion, despite the fact I'm buddhist and don't believe in a God and think organized religions are some of the worst things every created by man.

I also don't see terrorists in every shadow, which you and others like you seem to be all "warm and fuzzy" about doing. Once again; your chances of being affected by terrorism are even less than you're being able to recognize your chances of being affected by terrorism are nil.

You see,
Quote:

Chronically frightened authoritarian followers, looking for someone to attack because fighting is one of the things people do when they are afraid, are particularly likely to do so when they can find a moral justification for their hostility. Authoritarian followers feel empowered to isolate and segregate, to humiliate, to persecute, because in their heads they can almost hear the loudspeakers announcing, “Now batting for God’s team, his designated hitter, (their name).” High RWAs are more likely to sentence common criminals to long jail sentences, are more likely to be prejudiced, are more willing to join “posses” organized by authorities to hunt down and persecute almost any group you can think of. They seemingly have a lot of hostility boiling away inside them that their authorities can easily unleash. Indeed, this authoritarian aggression is one of the three defining elements of right-wing authoritarianism.

Events like the attacks of 9/11 can drive large parts of a population to being as frightened as authoritarian followers are day after day. In calm, peaceful times as well as in genuinely dangerous ones, high RWAs feel threatened. . There’s always a national crisis looming ahead. All times are troubled times that require drastic action.

Maybe you're right after all, Dick; it's certainly right up there in the top ten most stupid posts of all time...

(p.s. 6ix, Your punctuation, spelling and grammar are offensive to my eyes, they're so bad. If you want to make a point, better you should learn how to look somewhat less uneducated. Just a suggestion.)


Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off




NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Saturday, September 18, 2010 5:50 PM

6IXSTRINGJACK


Quote:

Originally posted by Niki2:
(p.s. 6ix, Your punctuation, spelling and grammar are offensive to my eyes, they're so bad. If you want to make a point, better you should learn how to look somewhat less uneducated. Just a suggestion.)



Wow... a personal attack on my writing ability. Ouch....

I admit that my editor was out of town and I'm just too damn lazy to write perfect online posts to please some no-name know it all online. Your having taken offense to my, at worst, mildly offensive grammatical errors is offensive to me.

This is the very essence of the Nanny State that the rational people here are revolting against... whether it comes from a Democratic, or Republican oppressive force, or simply from a one-tracked-minded fool who needs to resort to attacks on somebody's grammar.

Especially when that grammatical idiot probably has at least 30 IQ points on you.

~6ix


"A government is a body of people, usually notably ungoverned."

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Sunday, September 19, 2010 9:05 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Speaks volumes that your entire rant is about my mention of grammar...which by the way, was neither an attack nor was I offended, it was merely an afterthought, not an attack and I certainly didn't "need" to say it. I just noted it, as someone who very much loves the English language. Then to extrapolate it with a gigantic rant against some kind of "Nanny State", is weird.

That you had nothing to say regarding my refutation of "Stockholm Syndrome" also speaks volumes to your unwillingness to participate in an intelligent debate.

That's find, it's your right, but it's a shame.


Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off




NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

YOUR OPTIONS

NEW POSTS TODAY

USERPOST DATE

OTHER TOPICS

DISCUSSIONS
LOL @ Women's U.S. Soccer Team
Thu, November 21, 2024 16:20 - 119 posts
Russia Invades Ukraine. Again
Thu, November 21, 2024 14:36 - 7470 posts
Sir Jimmy Savile Knight of the BBC Empire raped children in Satanic rituals in hospitals with LOT'S of dead bodies
Thu, November 21, 2024 13:19 - 7 posts
Matt Gaetz, typical Republican
Thu, November 21, 2024 13:13 - 143 posts
Will Your State Regain It's Representation Next Decade?
Thu, November 21, 2024 12:45 - 112 posts
Fauci gives the vaccinated permission to enjoy Thanksgiving
Thu, November 21, 2024 12:38 - 4 posts
English Common Law legalizes pedophilia in USA
Thu, November 21, 2024 11:42 - 8 posts
The parallel internet is coming
Thu, November 21, 2024 11:28 - 178 posts
Is the United States of America a CHRISTIAN Nation and if Not...then what comes after
Thu, November 21, 2024 10:33 - 21 posts
The Rise and Fall of Western Civilisation
Thu, November 21, 2024 10:12 - 51 posts
Biden* to punish border agents who were found NOT whipping illegal migrants
Thu, November 21, 2024 09:55 - 26 posts
Hip-Hop Artist Lauryn Hill Blames Slavery for Tax Evasion
Thu, November 21, 2024 09:52 - 11 posts

FFF.NET SOCIAL