Joss's politics by doublethink84

I know that joss is a liberal(yay), and i wonder if you guys have joss quotes relating to his political stance.

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Monday, July 12, 2004 4:20 PM

I'm curious about his politics. How do you know he's a liberal? I've never run across anything where he expressed his opinion one way or the other.

---------------------------------------------
...The beauty of things was born before eyes and sufficient to itself; the heart-breaking beauty
Will remain when there is no heart to break for it.

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Monday, July 12, 2004 4:27 PM

for one, in the social sense, he is pro-gay. he also, when people were comparing season 7 of buffy to the bush admin, said this

"The last thing I ever wanted in the world was for any of Buffy's rhetoric to be compared to anything [President Bush] was saying,' Whedon said. "None of us advocates the idea of war and I certainly didn't support the decision to go in during this particular action [in Iraq]"

on religion, he said "I have nothing against religion as a concept, or as people practice it. Religious institutions on the other hand, I believe cause people to fly planes into buildings. It's very dangerous."

i was just wondering if people had any more qoutes besides these

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Monday, July 12, 2004 4:46 PM

Cool, thanks.

Not necessarily liberal-speak there, but he's probably not voting for Bush in Novemeber...

I'd like to see those quotes you asked for too.

---------------------------------------------
...The beauty of things was born before eyes and sufficient to itself; the heart-breaking beauty
Will remain when there is no heart to break for it.

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Monday, July 12, 2004 4:49 PM

THUNDAR

It's a good thing I put political ideals aside when I look for Entertainment. Otherwise I'd never watch anything. IMHO, Entertainers should entertain, not make political statements.

I'm still waiting for Alec Baldwin and his ilk to leave the country as they promised they would if Bush won the election.

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Monday, July 12, 2004 4:59 PM

he also said, "If I made 'Buffy the Lesbian Separatist,' a series of lectures on PBS on why there should be feminism, no one would be coming to the party, and it would be boring. The idea of changing culture is important to me, and it can only be done in a popular medium." There's also this more concise quote from the Bronze Beta: "Horror is reactionary. I'm a liberal. But we get along."

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Monday, July 12, 2004 5:00 PM

KERNELM

He has said that he is an "angry atheist" which of course isn't strictly a left/right issue, but generally tends to skew left. In his DVD commentaries, he has mentioned more than once that he doesn't like guns (but of course respects the genre trappings of a Western). On Angel there was an episode where a character recovered from amnesia and says, "oh, and I remember who the president is. But I sort of wish I didn't," or something to that effect. People also got in a big uproar when one of the Angel characters put up a Dixie Chicks poster.

I know he's made other (liberal-leaning) political references both in-show and in interviews and stuff too, but I can't recall anything more specific offhand.

Anyway, all of that is fairly circumstantial. I think the big keys are (as someone mentioned above) his gay-friendliness and attitude towards organized religion.

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Monday, July 12, 2004 5:07 PM

oh, i just found that he also said, "My visions of the future are always pretty much standard issue. The rich get richer, the poor get poorer and there are flying cars."

it isnt explicitely liberal, but it does reflect his look on politics

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Monday, July 12, 2004 5:26 PM

STANDING8

i dont care about his politcs. as long as his art is top notch, he could worship satan for all i care.

-Soul Rebel-

http://www.livejournal.com/users/standing8

updated: 7/12/04!

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Monday, July 12, 2004 5:40 PM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

'Mal's politics are very reactionary and 'Big government is bad' and 'Don't interfere with my life,''' Whedon explains. ''And sometimes he's wrong -- because sometimes the Alliance is America, this beautiful shining light of democracy. But sometimes the Alliance is America in Vietnam: we have a lot of petty politics, we are way out of our league and we have no right to control these people. And yet! Sometimes the Alliance is America in Nazi Germany. And Mal can't see that, because he was a Vietnamese.''

The show's other central concern diverges intriguingly from Buffy's universe, where fate and destiny loom large. ''I'm a very hard-line, angry atheist,'' Whedon says. ''Yet I am fascinated by the concept of devotion. And I want to explore that.'' (His existential revelation arrived during an adolescent viewing of ''Close Encounters of the Third Kind'' -- an experience soon followed by a reading of Sartre's ''Nausea.'') Mal tells the preacher who is a passenger on his ship, ''You're welcome on my boat; God ain't.'' If Buffy is the chosen one, forced to struggle with a responsibility that comes from outside, Mal is defiant in his belief that his fate is meaningless. ''This is a man who has learned that when he believed in something it destroyed him,'' Whedon explains. ''So what he believes in is the next job, the next paycheck and keeping his crew safe.'' It is a typical Whedonian inversion: much the way Buffy is a demon-killer obsessed with the morality of killing, Mal is a man of action frozen by his conviction that nothing really matters, a man forced to choose his morality at each juncture. ''Whatever I may think of him politically, he's a guy who looks into the void and sees nothing but the void -- and says there is no moral structure, there is no help, no one's coming, no one gets it, I have to do it.''

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Monday, July 12, 2004 5:41 PM

QUICKSAND

If you're that curious, I'm sure you'll find lots of quotes here and there.

Personally, as maybe reflected above, too... I don't think it matters. He's there to entertain, to make us laugh or cry or think or whatever... and hopefully show us some Truth while he's at it. That's all any artist can hope to do.

As far as what ELSE is written above, I'm not sure I agree with some using the phrase "Pro-Gay," which implies there is one and only opposite, Anti-Gay. I never really felt Buffy, the show, was trying to ram a sexual preference down my throat, it was just presenting it as a part of life on Earth -- which, by the way, it is. So I'd argue he's not so much Pro-Gay as just indifferent. Maybe I'm wrong though, maybe he IS trying to whack people on the head with the issue ... but I don't worry about it. I'm a pretty open-minded guy. If something offends YOU, though, feel free to change the channel.

Interviews are one thing, but as far as Joss's writing, I just hope it can make us think about our OWN political leanings before anything else. But that's just me. I'm just a liberal, so apparently I hate my country, or whatever it is Fox News is saying about me this week.

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Monday, July 12, 2004 6:25 PM

i understand what you are saying, quicksand. but when i said pro-gay, i only meant that when he created characters that were gay, they were people first, and they just happened to be gay. i didnt mean it in a black and white way.

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Monday, July 12, 2004 6:33 PM

Perhaps pro-gay in the sense that he creates characters that are so 'normal' many people don't notice their sexual orientation.

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Monday, July 12, 2004 6:45 PM

exactly. even though both buffy and angel are not overtly political, they are both liberal leaning shows, especially on social matters.

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Monday, July 12, 2004 9:01 PM

QUICKSAND

Well, I wouldn't say that, necessarily.

I mean, the show seems to advocate the killing of most, if not all, vampires. Not a very liberal mindset at all, if you ask me.

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Monday, July 12, 2004 10:43 PM

RECHELON

One can be very liberal with the killin'.

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Monday, July 12, 2004 11:56 PM

SOUPCATCHER

If you are really interested in getting a read on Joss and what shaped his viewpoint, the following interview is probably the best place to start:

http://filmforce.ign.com/articles/425/425492p1.html

It's a rather longish interview. Of particular interest is his education and previous work experience.

I shaved off my beard for you, devil woman!

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Tuesday, July 13, 2004 4:01 AM

TOTALLYFRYED

Quote:
Originally posted by Quicksand:
Well, I wouldn't say that, necessarily.

I mean, the show seems to advocate the killing of most, if not all, vampires. Not a very liberal mindset at all, if you ask me.

The question that interests me the most is not whether he's a liberal or conservative (my guess would be the former, but that's not the point), but whether or not he allows his political views to incorporate themselves into his work; my opinion is that, with very few exceptions, he doesn't allow that to happen - that even though these are very personal stories, they're personal because of the emotional pieces of himself that he brings to them, not the political pieces.

I'd also like to add that the only political views I've heard him express are that he doesn't like guns or the war in Iraq; not liking the President - and Joss has made it quite clear that he doesn't - is not a sentiment exclusive to liberals, so to call someone who doesn't like the President a liberal is kind of like calling someone who doesn't like bologna a vegan.

"C'mon, Kaylee. We all know I'm the funny one."

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Tuesday, July 13, 2004 5:48 AM

um,he said "i'm a liberal".

and for the vampires thing, its a metaphor. but the factor is a soul. its a different world than ours, and beings that arent evil(without soul) shouldnt be killed. i'm sure other people have different views, but there arent many conservative aspects in buffy or angel. there is the killing thing, but you cant turn a corner in LA without meeting a good demon. the buffyverse is so complex, and that what makes it great.

but feminism, lesbian witches, and good demons(angel, spike, clem) are left-leaning topics. And when i say liberal, i dont mean the stereotypical liberal the right-wing media puts out.

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Tuesday, July 13, 2004 6:35 AM

TOTALLYFRYED

Quote:
And when i say liberal, i dont mean the stereotypical liberal the right-wing media puts out.

And what would that stereotype be?

"C'mon, Kaylee. We all know I'm the funny one."

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Tuesday, July 13, 2004 7:22 AM

stereotypical- the head up in clouds, ideological, unrealistic liberal. the liberal who just says 'peace man'.

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Tuesday, July 13, 2004 7:40 AM

You can put the mirror away. That is not the Janet I wish to be.
Oops, wrong show/producer - sorry

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Tuesday, July 13, 2004 8:37 AM

TOTALLYFRYED

Quote:
Originally posted by doublethink84:
stereotypical- the head up in clouds, ideological, unrealistic liberal. the liberal who just says 'peace man'.

Thanks for indulging my curiosity; I was asking because the stereotype of liberals that I see in the right-wing media (I'm assuming you mean Fox News, etc.) is a very angry one, like there's no joy in people's lives - just bitterness, pain and anger. It's a shame that either stereotype exists, but I guess all that anyone can do is prove them wrong.

"C'mon, Kaylee. We all know I'm the funny one."

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Tuesday, July 13, 2004 8:53 AM

SHINYSEVEN

Heart of Gold is kind of a condensed version of The Handmaid's Tale, only with more shooting and whores, and Burgess the Family Values Guy is very much the villain of the piece.

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Tuesday, July 13, 2004 9:29 AM

SIMONF

There was a interview Joss did with The Face magazine a few months back. I think that one is the best for what his political views are (which for me came over as left wing European i.e. left of the Democrats).

I'm sure if people look hard enough for it, they will find scans of it on the Net.

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Wednesday, July 14, 2004 11:03 AM

GHOULMAN

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
'Mal's politics are very reactionary and 'Big government is bad' and 'Don't interfere with my life,''' Whedon explains. ''And sometimes he's wrong -- because sometimes the Alliance is America, this beautiful shining light of democracy. But sometimes the Alliance is America in Vietnam: we have a lot of petty politics, we are way out of our league and we have no right to control these people. And yet! Sometimes the Alliance is America in Nazi Germany. And Mal can't see that, because he was a Vietnamese.''

The show's other central concern diverges intriguingly from Buffy's universe, where fate and destiny loom large. ''I'm a very hard-line, angry atheist,'' Whedon says. ''Yet I am fascinated by the concept of devotion. And I want to explore that.'' (His existential revelation arrived during an adolescent viewing of ''Close Encounters of the Third Kind'' -- an experience soon followed by a reading of Sartre's ''Nausea.'') Mal tells the preacher who is a passenger on his ship, ''You're welcome on my boat; God ain't.'' If Buffy is the chosen one, forced to struggle with a responsibility that comes from outside, Mal is defiant in his belief that his fate is meaningless. ''This is a man who has learned that when he believed in something it destroyed him,'' Whedon explains. ''So what he believes in is the next job, the next paycheck and keeping his crew safe.'' It is a typical Whedonian inversion: much the way Buffy is a demon-killer obsessed with the morality of killing, Mal is a man of action frozen by his conviction that nothing really matters, a man forced to choose his morality at each juncture. ''Whatever I may think of him politically, he's a guy who looks into the void and sees nothing but the void -- and says there is no moral structure, there is no help, no one's coming, no one gets it, I have to do it.''

Disco.

I don't know much about Whedon (I don't read interviews much) but SignyM here seems to have hit a nail or two. Thanks! Now I don't have to read that interview! Hmm, how lazy am I?

I noticed that Whedon is pretty middle of the road, young Yank from the burbs. His stories are really bang on yet they are trapped in these genre settings (which cause him lots of pain I'd guess). He isn't "radical" by any means, that is, if you're like me and believe most Americans are rather liberal.

Still he manages to skim right up to racism, fascism, and other.. er, big bads and still come out smelling like a rose. That's writing!

Tell me Sigy... is the term "Whedonian inversion" your own? It may be the Whedon key man! Tell me!

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Wednesday, July 14, 2004 11:06 AM

GHOULMAN

Quote:
Originally posted by shinyseven:
Heart of Gold is kind of a condensed version of The Handmaid's Tale, only with more shooting and whores,....

ROTFL!

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Wednesday, July 14, 2004 11:21 AM

KOZURE

For an interesting new (sort of) take on political alignment, which pulls a little further away from the old, one-dimensional polarization of Left and Right, check out this site:

http://www.politicalcompass.org

If I were to hazard a guess, I'd say Joss is in the -3 to -6 range of the economic scale and -4 to -6 on the social scale, that is, in the Collectivism / Individualism quadrant.

If that seems like a whole bunch of gobbledygook to you, follow the link. It really is an interesting site.

Kozure the Kamikaze Highlander

Proud Citizen of Canada-That-Was

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Wednesday, July 14, 2004 6:16 PM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Ghoulman I'm sorry!!! That writing isn't mine- I wish I could claim it was. I was looking for the original interview... I had a link to the whole damn thing... but all I could find was this snippet, and no byline.

Drats, drats, drats!!

It was a really long article, too.

mea culpa!

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Wednesday, July 14, 2004 7:51 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Ghoulman:
I noticed that Whedon is pretty middle of the road, young Yank from the burbs.

Third generation TV writer, educated at Riverdale, Winchester College and Wesleyan sounds like aristo to me, but I am European.

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Wednesday, July 14, 2004 10:23 PM

SOLON

Whatever Joss' politics are they make other people think about their own, and that can't be bad. Maybe that's just an undecided and unreformed independent voter talking, but thinking of American politics in a partisan way never appealed to me. The fact that neither of the candidates ever have is incidental.

Personally, I feel that the politics of Firefly skew in an undeniably Libertarian direction(and don't see anything wrong with that), but certainly apply to our current(American) political situation.

Also, at the moment(7/16/04 3:27am CT) my personal politics are leaning in a spell-check for President direction. And since I have to wake up in a few short hours, with a jackhammer pounding in my ear while I try to learn Spanish, I'll leave my opinion at that.

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Wednesday, July 14, 2004 11:11 PM

SOLON

...That's a literal jackhammer by the way, not the hangover variety(although I may have both tomorrow, it's not an unusual situation for me). There's construction work going on outside my classroom. And the fact that I struck out at the party I went to tonight, and stopped to check FIREFLYFANS.net before I went to bed alone should surprise no one(unless you were there for this party, because it was popping, and… never mind). My ability to spell this coherently when stone cold drunk on cheap beer and fine whiskey should shock and awe however(If I hadn't already credited the F7 button on my keyboard for the lion’s share of it anyway in my last post). I forget what the angry political discussion is all about anyway, because my oppressive, paternalistic, cabalistic, partisan government(federal, state, or local) did not break up our revelry in time(or possibly at all, I didn't stay until the end) to prevent me from enjoying myself to the point of severe intoxication(which for all you minors out there is not cool. Continue to enjoy the action, violence, and explicit sexual situations of Firefly without abusing alcohol, tobacco, or drugs and make your own political decisions(that’s what this country; mine anyway, but possibly not your own, as this is online) is all about).

...Or whatever’s clever. Solon the king of Greek legend probably wouldn’t feel the same way. He’d talk about honor, and loyal service to your city-state or something, but screw my noble namesake, he was a political philosopher anyway. I’m not so much, I'm not famous for it anyway, and if I was, I’d disagree with him on several fundamental issues anyway, not however his lesson to the Lydian King Croesus on the temporality of fortune, and the measure of a happy man(or woman). That is a lesson that everyone should take to heart, and one that is delivered in the first few minutes of Firefly. I'll skip the sermon here however, as I'm sure there are few interested parties reading this, and whoever is probably has a local library that could hook them up with the life changing lesson that is front and center in Herodotus' famous work The Histories.

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Thursday, July 15, 2004 5:33 AM

GHOULMAN

Quote:
Originally posted by PurpleBelly:
Quote:
Originally posted by Ghoulman:
I noticed that Whedon is pretty middle of the road, young Yank from the burbs.

Third generation TV writer, educated at Riverdale, Winchester College and Wesleyan sounds like aristo to me, but I am European.

Hmm. Well, from what I know about California (I'm over in the Maritime provinces these days) I'd say Joss is a pretty typical suburban American white male. His writting betrays that all over the place (imho). Aristocratic isn't what I'd call anyone American unless they were particularly white and rich.

Oh, and SignyM, I hear ya. No worries.

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Thursday, July 15, 2004 5:48 AM

I bow to your local knowledge, Ghoulman. To my local audience, I'd have said middle-class, but I've never comprehended the definition of middle-class outside of my own culture, either.

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Thursday, July 15, 2004 6:07 AM

SOUTHERNMERC

Definitions often defy definate understanding anyway. "Middle-class" is only vaguely defined as-is. My parents, while I was growing up, would be called middle-class here in Arkansas, but if we were in New York or California they would be near the lowest income brackets. You're right, local definitions vary wildly.

Jayne: "You got yourself lookin' mighty hideous!"

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Tuesday, July 20, 2004 7:08 AM

BIGBLUEFAN

http://forums.prospero.com/foxfirefly/messages

On the OB Thread # 11751.1

One of my first posts on the OB. Enjoy!

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Tuesday, July 20, 2004 3:33 PM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

Political compass - interesting website.

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Tuesday, July 20, 2004 6:09 PM

SHINY

This seemed as good a thread as any to post this High-larious political parody (enjoyable for both "Liberal Wieners" and "Right Wing Nut Jobs"):

http://atomfilms.shockwave.com/af/content/this_land_af

"I left my heart in Seren-ity Val-ley..." <-- the farthest I've ever gotten in writing filk. ;)

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Tuesday, July 20, 2004 11:19 PM

SIMONF

Finally found a scan on the interview with the now defunct Face magazine.

http://www.slayerverse.de/tanet/net_buffy_us/?navi=news.php&id=3873

You can read about Joss' admiration for Bill Clinton, what he thinks of George Bush, and his feelings on American foreign policy.

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Tuesday, July 20, 2004 11:53 PM

Wonderful, thanks SimonF. An insightful piece - by which I mean it bolsters my prejudices, naturally

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Wednesday, July 21, 2004 3:26 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by SimonF:
Finally found a scan on the interview with the now defunct Face magazine.

http://www.slayerverse.de/tanet/net_buffy_us/?navi=news.php&id=3873

As someone who loves Firefly and keeps up with politics, I found this article fascinating. First, a bit that makes me wonder about this rag’s fact checking:

Quote:
“The Firefly future also has the US colonising Britain, adopting a king as ruler, and making Londonium the capital of its empire.”

Huh??

More germane to this thread is the following surprising (at least to me) paragraph:

Quote:
Joss worships Bill Clinton, recognising in him a kindred spirit, a Democrat with moral vision, who could nonetheless engage the masses and make things happen: “Not that he didn’t do the corrupt deal-making things, like every other politician – but the Clinton presidency was a beautiful thing.”

He was a corrupt deal-maker but his administration was a beautiful thing? If somebody here posted something so self-contradictory they’d be torn to shreds (and rightly so). Either the magazine grossly misrepresented the conversation, or more likely, it just goes to show that a genius in one field isn’t any more likely to be smart about politics than the rest of us.

Quote:
[speaking about Firefly] “The whole point is the triumph of the human spirit,” he says. “The tiny man crushed by every circumstance lives on, and that is the triumph.”

It’s too bad that anybody thinks that the “every circumstance” doesn’t include both the fascist force-monger Bush-ites AND socialist force-monger Clinton-ites.

Anyway, I love Firefly.

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Wednesday, July 21, 2004 5:00 AM

HKCAVALIER

Quote:
Originally posted by Tiger:
Quote:
Joss worships Bill Clinton, recognising in him a kindred spirit, a Democrat with moral vision, who could nonetheless engage the masses and make things happen: “Not that he didn’t do the corrupt deal-making things, like every other politician – but the Clinton presidency was a beautiful thing.”
He was a corrupt deal-maker but his administration was a beautiful thing? If somebody here posted something so self-contradictory they’d be torn to shreds (and rightly so). Either the magazine grossly misrepresented the conversation, or more likely, it just goes to show that a genius in one field isn’t any more likely to be smart about politics than the rest of us.

Good morning Tiger. I don't mean to get on your case. It's just that you describe exactly what I can't stand about political discussions these days. Everybody's gone crazy with the logic and the forensic league rend and conquer techniques: "Ahah, I see a logical fallacy in your argument... I have you now!" Time was, being able to hold two seemingly contradictory concepts in your mind at once was a sign of sanity and maturity. Now it's grounds for being "torn to shreds."

To understand Joss's statement you have to take him seriously when he says, "...like every other politician..." From this, and other things he's said, we know that Joss has a pretty jaundiced view of politics and politicians. But even in a corrupt system some good can be done. When it's the only system we have, you gotta make the best of it, y'know? Seems reasonable to me that Joss would approve of a lot of things a man might do, without believing the man himself to be some paragon of virtue.

Ever try to explain Mal Reynold's ethics to someone? The man is a mass of contradictions--noble and petty, decent and ruthless all at once. I think a lot of what he stands for is beautiful and at the same time I think he's kind of a psycho.

Why is it we're so ready to tear people to shreds when we don't understand what they're getting at?

HKCavalier

Hey, hey, hey, don't be mean. We don't have to be mean, because, remember, no matter where you go, there you are.

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Wednesday, July 21, 2004 6:57 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by HKCavalier:
Time was, being able to hold two seemingly contradictory concepts in your mind at once was a sign of sanity and maturity.

It still is. But CONSIDERING two contradictory ideas at the same time is different from BELIEVING two contradictory ideas at the same time. The former is a testament to critical thinking; the latter is an indication of self dilusion (if not worse). Hey we're all guilty of it sometimes.

Quote:
Seems reasonable to me that Joss would approve of a lot of things a man might do, without believing the man himself to be some paragon of virtue.

First, it's entirely possible that the magazine has Joss's words all mixed up and out of context. I've been mis-quoted in newspapers so badly that I started to wonder who the other guy was with my name living in my town. But even if they only got this part right, "the Clinton administration was a beautiful thing" it justifies my comment about geniuses and politics.

Quote:
Ever try to explain Mal Reynold's ethics to someone? The man is a mass of contradictions--

Yes I have, and no he isn't. When has the character ever contradicted himself? He doesn't like to be told what to do, he wants to keep flying, he hates the alliance, and he shows compassion when it won't interfere too much with the first three. He's the most consistent character on the show; hell, maybe in most shows on TV.

Quote:
Why is it we're so ready to tear people to shreds when we don't understand what they're getting at?

Barring a screw-up by the magazine as previously mentioned, we do understand what he was getting at, he was very clear. Again, geniuses and politics.

I say, enjoy his shows and movies. There's no doubt the man knows what to do with a story and I respect him greatly for that. But review his politics just as critically as you would any other stranger's. Even for most liberals, calling the Clinton administration 'beautiful' is a reach.

And what's up with the king of Londonium?

---------------------------------------------
...The beauty of things was born before eyes and sufficient to itself; the heart-breaking beauty
Will remain when there is no heart to break for it.

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Sunday, August 1, 2004 5:06 AM

LEXIBLOCK

Quote:
Originally posted by KernelM:
In his DVD commentaries, he has mentioned more than once that he doesn't like guns (but of course respects the genre trappings of a Western).

Come to europe, you'll find millions of right wing people who are against guns.

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Sunday, August 1, 2004 6:04 AM

LEXIBLOCK

Quote:
Originally posted by Tiger:
He was a corrupt deal-maker but his administration was a beautiful thing?

Unlike you, he understands life isn't black and white.

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Sunday, August 1, 2004 7:38 AM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Tiger- Doncha get it???

The whole theme of Firefly as far as I can tell is when a person loses his (or her) certitudes and is left only with a moral compass.

Mal lost is belief is God, his belief that right makes might, possibly even his belief in himself as a "good person". When all of the landmarks were eliminated from his moral landscape, all he had left was a direction to guide him through ambiguous choices- not always between "good" and "bad" but between "bad" and "less bad". Sometimes, Mal engages in corrupt dealings (like transporting slaves) for a greater good (keeping his crew together).

I think Joss sees Clinton as being the same: a person with compassion maintaining his direction in an environment when most people are going the other way. Choices weren't certain, sometimes he engaged in deal-making in order to further the vision... and always with the knowledge that enganging too much in the opposition's tactics can change him too.

Now, I'm not a big fan of Clinton's. I think he went over to the dark side with the whole concept of "free trade uber alles". But I think I understand Joss' fascination with Clinton because in some ways he is very much like Mal.

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Sunday, August 1, 2004 8:54 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
Tiger- Doncha get it???

...all he [Mal] had left was a direction to guide him through ambiguous choices- not always between "good" and "bad" but between "bad" and "less bad". Sometimes, Mal engages in corrupt dealings (like transporting slaves) for a greater good (keeping his crew together).

I can't understand the position that Mal is morally unsure of himself. You see, he DOESN'T transport slaves. He doesn't even take the money AND the cargo from Patience when he had the chance (and who could really blame him if he did?)

He may feel betrayed, let down by life (or God), he may feel that, "none of it means a damn thing", but he still lives by his moral code. Right is right, and wrong is wrong. What's great about the show, is that doing what's right comes with it's negative side too (just like real life). Mal's decisions aren't easy, clear-cut, or black and white. He has his moral code, follows it as best he can, and lives with the consequences either way.

Quote:
I think Joss sees Clinton as being the same: a person with compassion maintaining his direction in an environment when most people are going the other way.

I don't know for sure how Joss sees Clinton. The article in question only included one quote directly from Joss, and the rest as filler by the writer. Who knows how accurate it is. But Clinton DID NOT maintain his direction as a Democrat - he signed welfare reform, sent troops to Somalia and Bosnia (among others). Not to say he was any worse than any other president in the 20th-21st century, but he still compromised his values for political clout that would first get him reelected, then secure his "legacy".

"What president hasn't done that?", you ask? Well, none. That's what politicians do. Clinton, Bush, Gore, Reagan, all do it. The point of my earlier post was concerning Joss's quote that the Clinton administration was "beautiful", and some people's tendency to follow someone politically just because they're a genius in another field.

But really, after all this discussion, we only have the one quote from the one article. At the very least it's an incomplete representation of Joss's ideas.

Anyway, Mal is my hero for being what he is despite all the shit he's had piled on him, and Joss is my hero for creating him and the universe he lives in.

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Sunday, August 1, 2004 12:23 PM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

I think we actually agree, just coming at it from different directions. I liked the way you summarized Mal's viewpoint. BTW- the slave-trading ep was an unaired one.

I agree with you about Clinton- I didn't want to get into a rant about his policy failings. OTOH- he did raise the minimum wage and significantly advanced environmental protection. My personal viewpoint is his biggest failing was far too much faith in "free enterprise".

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Sunday, August 1, 2004 2:52 PM

BOURNE

Quote:
BTW- the slave-trading ep was an unaired one.

There're probably any number of our fellow Browncoats who've watched the DVDs more than I, but I think I've watched 'em enough to call you on this one.

There ARE no episodes, aired or unaired (or even un-filmed, if you count the "Dead or Alive" script), in which Mal and crew engage in or even condone slave-trading. Unless you are liberal-minded enough to include our bovine brothers and sisters from "Shindig" and "Safe". Moreover, he deliberately steals from and beats up acknowledged slave-traders in "Shindig" during the teaser ("they earned this by the sweat of their slave-trading brow[s]"). And upon realizing the people-as-chattel implications of his unwitting "marriage" to Saffron in "Our Mrs Reynolds", he becomes incensed to the point of near-sanctimonious-ness (how's THAT for a made-up word?).

The closest they came to acceptance was in "Jaynestown", during which Mal encounters the de facto slavery of the Mudders...and says nothing about it. Hell, even Jayne is nearly moved to rabble-rouser-y(that's two) by their plight. But Mal just wants to get the job done and get out, hoping things go smooth...even so, to imply he approves of or accepts slavery is more than a stretch; it tears one's credulity in twain.

I'll defend Mal's overall moral fiber further by pointing out his blood-stained encounter with the piratical crew in "Out of Gas". After he regains the upper hand - or at least the "drop" - on them, and they are disembarking, the "anti-Mal" remarks, "You would've done the same." And how does our morally ambiguous Captain respond? NOT by taking the idea into consideration, by hesitating. But instantly, vehemently, with "We can already see that I haven't." Hell, I felt his moral outrage at that moment. Just one of many instances I can recall that beautifully sketches out Mal's character.

On a more conciliatory note, I do believe Joss felt obligated to exercise restraint in portraying moral ambiguity in his little crew. He hints at this during the DVD commentaries. Apparently, some of FOX's network notes kept Joss & Co from going to some "pretty dark places" with our heroes.

No comment on Slick Willie...whoooooole 'nuther can o'wrigglers there

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Sunday, August 1, 2004 7:55 PM