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Originally posted by Wulfenstar:
?

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Originally posted by Hero:
And we need to be able to act, sometimes in secret.

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Originally posted by Wulfenstar:
?



"Hope is a good thing, maybe the best of things, and no good thing ever dies"

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Originally posted by KrelleK:

I wonder why Clinton would be against some of it, because it is not there fault they have troops in Iraq is it,

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http://www.guardian.co.uk/media/2010/nov/30/interpol-wanted-notice-jul
ian-assange

WikiLeaks: Interpol issues wanted notice for Julian Assange

The WikiLeaks founder, Julian Assange, is tonight facing growing legal problems around the world, with the US announcing that it was investigating whether he had violated its espionage laws.

Assange's details were also added to Interpol's worldwide wanted list. Dated 30 November, the entry reads: "sex crimes" and says the warrant has been issued by the international public prosecution office in Gothenburg, Sweden. "If you have any information contact your national or local police." It reads: "Wanted: Assange, Julian Paul," and gives his birthplace as Townsville, Australia.

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I think whatever our govt has to do in secret is probably not worth doing.

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Originally posted by canttakesky:
Is anyone else disturbed that Assange is so desperately hunted?

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Originally posted by Hero:
Do you have direct deposit for your Tax Returns? If so please post your Routing and Account numbers. While your at it please post your Social Security Number.

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So you would have us post our missile codes, nuclear secrets, trial strategies, when and where we will attack and in what strength, our ongoing research and development of new technology, etc.

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You argue we need to post patol routes of our soldiers in advance along with what weapons and equipment they carry.

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A Afgan fella comes forward and tells us the location of bad guys.

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On that note, lady witnesses a drug murder and we put her in Witness Protection so she can testify...you would have us tell the bad guys where she is so they can kill her and her family before trial, good job.

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Originally posted by piratenews:
Wikileaks is doing Pentagon and Israel's work to Bomb Bomb Bomb Semites in Iran, without targeting Israel's warcrimes.

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Hero:
Historical, you would favor letting Hitler in on our invasion plan of Europe in 1944. You would favor letting everyone know we only had two atomic bombs to start with, but you'd also let everyone in on how to make them.

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Originally posted by piratenews:
Wikileaks in s spook psyop run by Nazi jew George soros to keep his patsy ESPN addict Hussein Obama Soetoro in the White House by throwing Billary Clinton under da bus.

Wikileaks is doing Pentagon and Israel's work to Bomb Bomb Bomb Semites in Iran, without targeting Israel's warcrimes. Israeli Mossad Amdocs tap all phone lines in USA, including the White House, FBI, Pentagon and all police agencies.

Today CNN and Cramer alleged Wikileaks soon-to-be-released banking docs will only target Bank of America, not BushObama's kosher Golden Sacks.

The alleged rape allegations, by Wikileaks "volunteer interns" (infiltrators?), have NOT resulted in an arrest warrant from heroin smugglers at INTERPOL.

Try posting 1 Beatle's MP3 for free download, and see how fast Uncle Scam shuts down your website. But Wikileaks can post Top Secret Pentagon docs without fear of DMCA Notice?

Keyword: WikiLEAKS. As in Uncle Scam's official leaks, passed directly to NY Times, Wash Post, Commie China's Wall Street Journal.

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Historical, you would favor letting Hitler in on our invasion plan of Europe in 1944. You would favor letting everyone know we only had two atomic bombs to start with, but you'd also let everyone in on how to make them.

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From Wiki (actually from a government briefing paper):

The U.S. expected to have another atomic bomb ready for use in the third week of August, with three more in September and a further three in October.[85] On August 10, Major General Leslie Groves, military director of the Manhattan Project, sent a memorandum to General of the Army George Marshall, Army Chief of Staff, in which he wrote that "the next bomb . . should be ready for delivery on the first suitable weather after 17 or August 18." On the same day, Marshall endorsed the memo with the comment, "It is not to be released over Japan without express authority from the President."[85] There was already discussion in the War Department about conserving the bombs in production until Operation Downfall, the projected invasion of Japan, had begun. "The problem now [August 13] is whether or not, assuming the Japanese do not capitulate, to continue dropping them every time one is made and shipped out there or whether to hold them . . . and then pour them all on in a reasonably short time. Not all in one day, but over a short period. And that also takes into consideration the target that we are after. In other words, should we not concentrate on targets that will be of the greatest assistance to an invasion rather than industry, morale, psychology, and the like? Nearer the tactical use rather than other use."[85]

Cite: 85.^ a b c "The Atomic Bomb and the End of World War II, A Collection of Primary Sources," (PDF). National Security Archive Electronic Briefing Book No. 162. George Washington University. http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB162/72.pdf.

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Originally posted by Niki2:
CTTS: you actually took something PN wrote SERIOUSLY?

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Originally posted by canttakesky:

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Originally posted by Niki2:
CTTS: you actually took something PN wrote SERIOUSLY?

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Yep. PN prints a lot of bullshit, but he also finds a lot of information worth knowing that is overlooked by mainstream media. I believe dismissing everything he says lock, stock, and barrel just because it came from HIM is a missed opportunity.

Actually, I not only believe that about PN but also everyone here on this board, no matter how much their posts annoy me sometimes. That is why I come.

--Can't Take (my gorram) Sky

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Originally posted by dreamtrove:
Sorry, bud, you lose. You just said that CTS was just like people responsible for Hitler, ergo, would be responsible for the next Hitler, ergo, was Hitler.

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Your nation, such as it is, has been less of a dick than it is today. Maybe you should see to that if you want to preserve it.

Me? I *want* it to fail. I say good riddance.

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Originally posted by dreamtrove:

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Originally posted by KrelleK:

I wonder why Clinton would be against some of it, because it is not there fault they have troops in Iraq is it,

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You're really missing something about American politics here. I know it's complicated, and from the outside hard to suss out.

Hillary and Bill are a team.

Clinton attacked Iraq a lot. He laid siege, bombed, and tried to invade, but he couldn't get congress scared enough.

The reason he didn't send so many troops into Kosovo was that he was holding them back in Turkey to attack Iraq.

When Clinton left office and Bush took over, there was no change of power. That's the same exact guys replacing the same exact guys under a different banner. And I mean the same exact guys. The advisory corps remains the same. And still does. Which is why we're still there.

But democrats are not the opposition to republicans, they are another kind of republican. Hell, Hillary herself was the first person in govt. to suggest a war with Iran back in what was it, '04?


Oh, just soes you know:

bearing the cross of socialism, not a good thing. You might want to do a google image search on

socialist cross

or

cross of socialism

Then ya might want to rethink that avatar idea ;)

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Originally posted by canttakesky:
Is anyone else disturbed that Assange is so desperately hunted?

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http://www.guardian.co.uk/media/2010/nov/30/interpol-wanted-notice-jul
ian-assange

WikiLeaks: Interpol issues wanted notice for Julian Assange

The WikiLeaks founder, Julian Assange, is tonight facing growing legal problems around the world, with the US announcing that it was investigating whether he had violated its espionage laws.

Assange's details were also added to Interpol's worldwide wanted list. Dated 30 November, the entry reads: "sex crimes" and says the warrant has been issued by the international public prosecution office in Gothenburg, Sweden. "If you have any information contact your national or local police." It reads: "Wanted: Assange, Julian Paul," and gives his birthplace as Townsville, Australia.

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All I can say is, if you are going to piss off a war-happy, heavily armed, and relatively wealthy country, you shouldn't have sex or look at porn. It shouldn't be this way, but apparently, it is.

--Can't Take (my gorram) Sky

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http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20101203/ap_on_hi_te/wikileaks

WikiLeaks struggled to stay online Friday as governments and hackers hounded the organization across the Internet, trying to deprive it of a direct line to the public. Like a fugitive moving from house to house, WikiLeaks changed the name of its Web site after a U.S. company stopped directing traffic to wikileaks.org. French officials then moved to oust it from its new home.

"The first serious infowar is now engaged. The field of battle is WikiLeaks. You are the troops," tweeted John Perry Barlow, co-founder of the online free-speech group Electronic Frontier Foundation. His message was reposted by WikiLeaks to its 300,000-odd followers....

Wikileaks.ch, is owned by the Swiss Pirate Party, formed two years ago to campaign for freedom of information. Its officials said they gave Assange information on how to seek asylum in Switzerland.

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Is Julian Assange the digital age's Che?
Martin Flanagan
December 4, 2010

THE Guardian accompanied its publication of the latest WikiLeaks disclosure with a Q&A with editor Alan Rusbridger, which contained the most interesting comment I have seen concerning the website's founder, Julian Assange. It came from Hannibal123 and was less than wholly literate but the insight that struck me was that Assange is, or will come to be seen as, the Che Guevara of the information age.

This is not to say that I see Che Guevara as a romantic hero. As a Cuban government minister, Guevara signed death warrants for political prisoners - some sources say hundreds, others thousands. Supporters of gay marriage who think fondly of Guevara should investigate the fate of Cuban homosexuals at that time. But an aspect of Guevara's story caught the public imagination in a big way, making him part of the memory of the 1960s along with JFK, Marilyn Monroe and Muhammad Ali.

Guevara's end could be seen as utterly anti-climactic. He was executed in 1967 by agents of the Bolivian government acting with American support after he tried to incite a revolution in that country, which the populace had no interest in. Nonetheless, Guevara is remembered as a marker of his time, one whose life embodied certain of its major tensions. I suspect Assange, who has something of Andy Warhol about him, will end up a similar figure.
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Three times now he has embarrassed the most powerful government in the world. Assange's critics point out that he hasn't embarrassed the Russian or Chinese governments, and that if he did he wouldn't last long. The idea grows apace that he is anti-American, that this is an attack on the US.

One indication of the indiscriminate forces being whipped up by the affair surfaced on a website called TOPIX which this week ran the question: Should the Yanks kill Julian Assange? Mr Humbert, from Irvine in California, wrote, ''The US should say to Australia, either you hand this treasonous scum's head on a stick with his ball stuffed in his mouth or we break diplomatic relations.''

Yank Oliver, from Sudbury in Canada, went further: ''That would stand as a good warning for other Aussies not to betray their allies.'' But neither went as far as Dr Zauius from Sudbury in Canada: ''Strike team needs to be dispatched to Sweden. I am wondering why they have not handed him over. Perhaps it is time to examine the Swiss (sic) in serious detail.''

Meanwhile, the Turks are blaming the Israelis for the leaks and the Iranian government is blaming the American government. In this, the Iranian president found - perhaps not surprisingly - support from those in Russia described by The New York Times as ''hardliners'' who are speculating ''that hawks in the Pentagon had leaked the documents to discredit President Barack Obama, or that the cables were fakes cooked up to mislead foreign governments''.

Assange's next target is a bank. Right now, there aren't too many nations in the world where banks are not offensive to the public. Wait until that one hits the streets, or should I say screens, because this is also a revolutionary (or perhaps, evolutionary) moment in the history of the media.

The big news stories of our time are being broken by someone using the internet who relies nonetheless on five of the old media world's most reputable brands - The Guardian, The New York Times, Der Spiegel, Le Monde and El Pais. Reputation still counts for something.

The argument against Assange is that he has ''blood on his hands''. It ill behoves anyone who supported the invasion of Iraq to talk about people having blood on their hands. Or are they like Pontius Pilate? Can they wash their hands clean of their actions?

Moreover, in response to the claim by an American admiral that Assange had blood on his hands, The New York Times noted on Monday: ''Despite that dire warning, Robert Gates, the defence secretary, told Congress in October that a Pentagon review 'to date has not revealed any sensitive intelligence sources and methods compromised by the disclosure' of the war logs by WikiLeaks.''

The Victorian state election is like something written by Charles Dickens compared to the story of Julian Assange. Interpol has issued a warrant for his arrest. The Australian government has bought in, ordering an investigation of his past. People in apparently responsible positions are calling for his assassination. What happens now will be a defining drama of our times.

Martin Flanagan is a senior writer

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Fair enough. You want the country to fail. I suggest you read 'Without Warning' by John Birmingham. He takes the world and the eve of the Iraqi invasion in 2003 and gives you your fondest wish and simply removes America from the equation. The result is global economic collapse and two nuclear conflicts. Also the breakdown of global trade and communications and death on a massive scale. Good book, I think you'll like it.

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Originally posted by dreamtrove:
Anthony

I remember that ep. Good analogy. The only thing I might add as a slight stickler is that Assange is not American, whereas Picard was Starfleet, so Picard is committing a betrayal that Assange is not, so someone might have an issue with Picard that does not carry over here. I supported Picard's position. The problem between the Federation and the Romulans was not one of technology, it was one of trust. The same is true here, and we are hemorrhaging trust all over the place. We might want to see to that.

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Originally posted by Wulfenstar:
"I must say that if he really has done something like that(the sex crime)then yes he should be punished for it, but I must say that I find the timing somewhat questionable, he sends out a bunch secret documents which has been leaked to him by people, and then he ends up on charges of rape, not saying I know anything, just seems a little fishy"

I agree.

"Hope is a good thing, maybe the best of things, and no good thing ever dies"

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Originally posted by SignyM:
He is not accused of rape. He's accused (emphasis on "accused") of not using a condom during consensual sex.

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"His Majesty made you a major because he believed you would know when not to obey orders."

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Originally posted by dreamtrove:
Anthony

I remember that ep. Good analogy. The only thing I might add as a slight stickler is that Assange is not American, whereas Picard was Starfleet, so Picard is committing a betrayal that Assange is not, so someone might have an issue with Picard that does not carry over here. I supported Picard's position. The problem between the Federation and the Romulans was not one of technology, it was one of trust. The same is true here, and we are hemorrhaging trust all over the place. We might want to see to that.

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Originally posted by dreamtrove:
Krell

Red Rose means Labour to me. Is that logical? I got that it wasn't an avatar, but cross of socialism was unfortunate, I get that in a second language you miss it. I assumed you googled it and got the joke.

Does Denmark still have its own currency? I remember they were resistant to joining the EU at first, it looked like there was hope for a continued independent Denmark. I think there may still be. If I was there, that would probably be my main voting issue, provided no one was running on the platform of destroying the Earth and killing the people on it.

Alas, here, both parties tend to be selling that they *would* destroy the earth and kill the people on it, globally as well as locally.

Politics are a tricky thing. If you look carefully at the debates here, everyone here hates both the Dems and the GOP. But when people bring up wedge issues like Abortion, Gay rights, etc. then people can easily be moved into partisan blocks and start defending one party and attacking the other. But if we take a step back, we realize that we have more in common with each other, and nothing in common with either party.


To help explain it, people have put forth various models, here, and I'm just going to try to illustrate:

Imagine if you will a two-dimensional political spectrum:

Left to right, you have the X axis. On the left, you have the caring giving liberal and on the right, you have the protecting cautious conservative. It's commonly put like this:
If the left ruled supreme, everyone would have everything they asked for, and we'd all be broke in no time. Ultimately it would be impossible for anyone to create anything that involved more than one person.
If the right ruled supreme, we would never lose what we have, but there would be no change or progress, and some might get left in the cold.
People can argue with those caricatures, but that's the trend, and everyone is somewhere on that spectrum.

Now, add a second Y dimension, where Authoritarian is at the top, and Independent is at the bottom. Everyone here would be somewhere in the lower half, even those who others call Authoritarian. Our govt. would be at the top, somewhere in between Iran and North Korea

Now you have this two dimensional map.

Democrats and Republicans would both be way up near the top on Authoritarian, and we could argue which was higher, but they're both higher than anyone here.

Democrats would be 1 point to the left, and Republicans 1 point to the right.

Here's why:

We have a two party system. If someone is one step to the left, they get all of the votes on the left. No one else can get into the debates, so there's no third party of note, and so there's no reason for a democrat to ever be two steps to the left of center. Same thing for the Republicans on the right.

Now sure, they may talk a lot of nonsense which sounds very left and right, that's just pandering to some extremists just to make sure those guys actually vote.

As for the other dimension, the authority vs. independent, that never gets debated at all. It doesn't have to, there are only two parties, and two points on a graph are a straight line. This has enabled both parties to float to a super authoritarian level that has no support from the people, because the parties set the debate, and they always set it on the left-right axis.

This helping at all?

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"well denmark has a bunch of parties..."

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Originally posted by dreamtrove:

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"well denmark has a bunch of parties..."

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lol

prolly true.


Krell,

what's your take on the Cameron govt? Is it similar to what you have in Denmark today?

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Originally posted by dreamtrove:
No one wants to test out alliance with Australia, as your govt. has already made overtones that it would rather an alliance with Japan, but that's a side issue.

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Actually, Australia jumps when the US says jump. That's how we have ensured our alliance over the past 60 years. Every time US in involved with some conflict, we're there too. We're your best buddies

Some of us would prefer to go the way of New Zealand, and have actually think for ourselves when it comes to involvement in military conflict, which somehow doesn't seem to be possible with successive governments regardless of their political leanings. It's true that our trade alliances (rather than military) have moved to Asia in the past 30 years. Quite rightly seeing as though that's the region we live in.

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AS THE net closes around WikiLeaks founder Julian Assange, the notorious whistleblower has accused Prime Minister Julia Gillard of betraying him as an Australian citizen in her eagerness to help the United States attack him and his organisation.

Ahead of his imminent arrest - over an alleged sexual assault in Sweden - Mr Assange yesterday broke cover to lash out at the Gillard government, comparing his treatment to that of former Guantanamo Bay detainee David Hicks.
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Wikileaks founder Julian Assange.

Wikileaks founder Julian Assange. Photo: Mark Chew

''I am an Australian citizen and I miss my country a great deal,'' Mr Assange wrote in a live question-and-answer session on the website of UK newspaper The Guardian.

''However … the Australian Prime Minister, Julia Gillard, and the Attorney-General, Robert McClelland, have made it clear that not only is my return impossible but they are actively working to assist the United States government in its attacks on myself and our people.''

Mr Assange's cyber retaliation against the government's condemnation of his decision to publish thousands of sensitive US diplomatic cables came as:

■ Mr McClelland yesterday slammed Mr Assange's actions as potentially life endangering and ''incredibly irresponsible and reprehensible''.

■ Government authorities around the world worked overtime to determine if Mr Assange could be charged with a crime related to the leaks.

■ WikiLeaks data analyst James Ball revealed a cache of documents relating to Australia was to be released late next month.

■ The WikiLeaks website battled to stay online as governments in several countries tried to block it.

■ British authorities said Mr Assange, believed to be hiding in the UK, could be arrested at any time on the Swedish warrant.

■ US Secretary of State Hillary Clinton was forced to issue yet another apology, this time declaring her ''deep respect and admiration'' for the British military after US criticism of their efforts in Afghanistan was published.

Mr Assange, 39, said his treatment by the federal government raised questions about what it meant to be an Australian citizen. ''Are we all to be treated like David Hicks at the first possible opportunity merely so that Australian politicians and diplomats can be invited to the best US embassy cocktail parties?''

Prominent human rights lawyer Julian Burnside told The Sunday Age Mr Assange's reference to Mr Hicks was apt, given the government's apparent enthusiasm to assist the US rather than an Australian citizen.

But he said he ''wouldn't be surprised'' if Mr Assange had committed an offence, given he almost certainly knowingly assisted with the publication of classified documents when the first wave of 250,000 sensitive US diplomatic cables was posted on WikiLeaks last Monday.

Ms Gillard has asserted that Mr Assange's actions were illegal. A taskforce of Australian soliders, intelligence officers and officials is investigating whether he has breached any Australian laws.

Mr McClelland yesterday said Mr Assange might not be welcome back in Australia if he is convicted over the leaks. He confirmed Australia was providing ''every assistance'' to US authorities in their investigation.

''Some of these documents [have] … the potential to put an individual's safety or national security at risk,'' Mr McClelland told The Sunday Age. Should Mr Assange be arrested, he will be offered consular assistance.

The WikiLeaks drop has caused enormous diplomatic problems for the US, with Senator Clinton describing it as ''an attack on the world''. Some senior US politicians have called for Mr Assange's arrest as a terrorist; others for his execution.

Mr Assange said on The Guardian website that he had stepped up security around his hiding place following threats.

So far, the only charges that may be brought against Mr Assange relate to an alleged sex assault in Sweden. Mr Assange's lawyer in London, Mark Stephens, said that neither he nor Scotland Yard had received the new arrest warrant from Sweden. Mr Assange has denied the sex assault allegations.

Meanwhile, Mr Assange's Melbourne-based son Daniel has defended his father's decision to publish the diplomatic cables, declaring that attempts to silence him and WikiLeaks are pointless.

The 20-year-old software developer's comments were posted on an American blogger's website yesterday in response to the blogger's calls for the former Box Hill High student to be physically harmed or kidnapped in a bid to flush out his father.

With JILL STARK, AGENCIES

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http://www.theage.com.au/national/pm-has-betrayed-me-assange-20101204-
18ks8.html