REAL WORLD EVENT DISCUSSIONS

Do we want to be like Mexico?

POSTED BY: SIGNYM
UPDATED: Tuesday, November 19, 2024 10:00
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Monday, December 6, 2010 11:02 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


In direct reply to your opinions stated as facts and accusations of no proof:

The UN approved the US invasion of Iraq" No, it did not.
Quote:

The international legal rules governing the use of force take as their starting point Article 2(4) of the U.N. Charter, which prohibits any nation from using force against another. The charter allows for only two exceptions to this rule: when force is required in self-defense (Article 51) or when the Security Council authorizes the use of force to protect international peace and security (Chapter VII).
The Bush Administration tried to get around the Charter via Resolution 1441, which
Quote:

ultimately passed—by a vote of 15-0—because its ambiguous wording was able to placate all parties. Recognizing the continued threat Iraq poses to international peace and security, recalling that Resolution 678 authorized member states to use all necessary means to implement relevant subsequent resolutions.
But that wasn’t good enough for the Bush Administration, and subsequently
Quote:

When President Bush pressed his case at the U.N. on Sept. 12, 2002, he made clear that the organization's continuing relevance was being put to the test. "Are Security Council resolutions to be honored and enforced, or cast aside without consequence? Will the United Nations serve the purpose of its founding, or will it be irrelevant?" he asked.
http://www.worldpress.org/specials/iraq/

Bush tried every trick in the book. But in 2004,
Quote:

The United Nations secretary general, Kofi Annan, declared explicitly for the first time last night that the US-led war on Iraq was illegal.

Mr Annan said that the invasion was not sanctioned by the UN security council or in accordance with the UN's founding charter. In an interview with the BBC World Service broadcast last night, he was asked outright if the war was illegal. He replied: "Yes, if you wish."

He then added unequivocally: "I have indicated it was not in conformity with the UN charter. From our point of view and from the charter point of view it was illegal."

http://m.guardian.co.uk/world/2004/sep/16/iraq.iraq?cat=world&type=art
icle


"The Bush tax cuts increased Federal revenues.” False.
Quote:

The Heritage Foundation [note, a CONSERVATIVE think tank]: Bush Tax Cuts Permanently Lowered Revenue

The argument has been made that the dot-com bubble and 9/11 are the reason the revenue didn’t show and increase. So then we might think the decline in revenues was caused by Sep 11th or the Dot-Com burst. In that case we would expect to see a drop in revenues followed by a return to trend as the economy recovers. At a minimum we should expect post dip revenue to grow faster as the economy tries to return to trend.

We don’t see that. We see a permanently lower trend

http://modeledbehavior.com/2010/07/13/ezra-klein-is-dismayed-that-some
-people-think-the-bush-tax-cuts-raised-revenue
/
Quote:

"The Congressional Budget Office data show that changes in law enacted since January 2001 increased the deficit by $539 billion in 2005. In the absence of such legislation, the nation would have a surplus this year. Tax cuts account for almost half — 48 percent — of this $539 billion in increased costs."

George W. Bush's CEA chair, Greg Mankiw, who used the term "charlatans and cranks" for people who believed that "broad-based income tax cuts would have such large supply-side effects that the tax cuts would raise tax revenue." He continued: "I did not find such a claim credible, based on the available evidence. I never have, and I still don't."

There is some stimulative affect from tax cuts. They increase economic activity somewhat, and that means there's somewhat more taxable revenue for the government to pick up. But not much. Not nearly enough to cancel out the cost of a tax cut. It's important to remember that the Laffer Curve is actually a curve. You can no more drop taxes to 1 percent and make up the difference in revenue than you could increases taxes to 100 percent and sustain enough economic activity to fund the government. You'll recall that the last time we saw budget surpluses was under Clinton -- and higher taxes.

Further, if tax cuts don't need to be paid for because they generate so much taxable economic activity that they pay for themselves, then neither do unemployment checks. After all, the two work very similarly: A tax cut puts more money in your pocket. Unemployment insurance puts more money in an unemployed person's pocket. The difference is that the unemployed person is likelier to spend that money, which will generate more taxable economic activity than if that money is saved. That's why Mark Zandi, an adviser to John McCain's presidential campaign, estimated ( http://www.economy.com/mark-zandi/documents/Senate-Finance-Committee-U
nemployment%20Insurance-041410.pdf
) that a dollar spent extending the Bush tax cuts would generate .32 cents of taxable economic activity, while a dollar spent on unemployment benefits would generate $1.61 of taxable economic activity.
In other words, using the theory under which tax cuts pay for themselves, unemployment benefits are a lot likelier to pay for themselves.

http://voices.washingtonpost.com/ezra-klein/2010/07/mcconnell_no_evide
nce_whatsoev.html


So you’ve got a Conservative think tank, Bush’s CEA Chair, and McCain’s advisors all saying tax cuts did NOT increase revenue.

"The economy is one (sic) FIRE!" We already know about that one...it SEEMED on fire at the time, but we’re paying the price for that fake hearth fire now.

So those are refutations, with facts and cites, of your points.

As to “proof” of the original claim, which was
Quote:

Lots of really poor people. A few very very wealthy. No services. A culture of thievery, and corruption up the wazoo
you shouldn’t need them. If you are seriously contending that we don’t have lots of poor people and few very, very wealthy ones, that’s insane.

If you want to consider “services” as “customer service”, here’s one many of us will recognize:
Quote:

Customer service is not what it use to be. A hello and thank you is non-existant anymore. Can I help you find something is a rarity nowadays. What happen? When did our society become numb to the rudeness from people taking our money? Not less than 10 years ago a business would jump hoops for a prospective client or customer, and now as we dish our dollars for service or goods we also get a tounge lashing, a roll of the eyes or sometimes worse. Is it the people that businesses are hiring - uneducated people with no drive or desire to succeed with a chip on their shoulder who take jabs to make themselves feel better? When are we going to demand respect and stop shopping at these places that make us feel bad? When our businessess going to hire those who can perform their jobs and be happy about their positions and not just those who work for cheap?
http://ezinearticles.com/?Customer-Service-And-Its-Decline-In-America&
id=4988327


If you see “services” as the services the government provides:
Quote:

Cincinnati, Ohio, is cutting back on trash collection and snow removal and filling fewer potholes.
The city of Dallas is not picking up litter in public parks. Flint, Mich., laid off 23 of 88 firefighters and closed two fire stations. In some places it’s almost literally the dark ages: the city of Shelton in Washington state decided to follow the example of numerous other localities and last week turned off 114 of its 860 street lights. Others have axed bus service and cut back on library hours. Class sizes are being increased and teachers are being laid off. School districts around the country are cutting the school day or the school week or the school year—effectively furloughing students. The National Association of Counties estimates that local governments will eliminate roughly half a million employees in the next fiscal year, with public safety, public works, public health, social services, and parks and recreation hardest hit by the cutbacks. A July survey by the association of counties, the National League of Cities, and the U.S. Conference of Mayors of 270 local governments found that 63 per cent of localities are cutting back on public safety and 60 per cent are cutting public works.

http://www2.macleans.ca/2010/09/14/third-world-america/

If your recognize “services” as “infrastructure”:
Quote:

Cuts in infrastructure and education are more than just a temporary belt-tightening in response to a recession. They threaten long-term damage to American’s economic foundation—a foundation that has long been eroding. When the eight-lane Interstate 35 bridge collapsed in Minneapolis in 2007, killing 13 people and injuring 145, the American Society of Civil Engineers warned that the infrastructure deficit of aging postwar highways and bridges amounted to US$1.6 trillion. More than a quarter of America’s bridges were rated structurally deficient or functionally obsolete. Steam pipes have exploded in New York City and the levees failed in New Orleans.

Despite its position as the world’s unrivalled superpower, international comparisons show the U.S. slipping on a number of fronts. On education, the United States has been falling behind, in everything from science and engineering to basic literacy. The U.S. once had the world’s highest proportion of young adults with post-secondary degrees; now it ranks 12th, according to the College Board, an association of education institutions. (Canada is now number one.) In 2001, the U.S. ranked fourth in the world in per capita broadband Internet use; it now ranks 15th out of 30 nations, according to the Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development. “We have been involved for three decades now in paring back public commitments and public spending, and that started with the Reagan revolution. We are living with the outcomes and consequences,” says Michael Bernstein, an economic historian at Tulane University in New Orleans.

Same. Notice the title of the piece: “Third World America: Collapsing bridges, street lights turned off, cuts to basic services: the decline of a superpower”.

You can find the material I’ve posted all over the internet. Most people in America are aware of these problems. It’s surprising you’re not.


Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off




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Monday, December 6, 2010 11:11 AM

STORYMARK


Aw, look at all them facts and citations.

Cue Rappy...

Knowing him, there are three options - he'll ignore all the evidence and just parrot the same shtick yet again; he'll use his patented "You don't really want to discuss" dodge to just turn tail and run; or he'll just vanish entirely from the thread (likely to re-start it under a different title later).

"I thoroughly disapprove of duels. If a man should challenge me, I would take him kindly and forgivingly by the hand and lead him to a quiet place and kill him."

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Monday, December 6, 2010 7:03 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Quote:

"The UN approved the US invasion of Iraq" (FALSE)
"The Bush tax cuts increased Federal revenues" (FALSE)
"The economy is one FIRE!" (FALSE)
-Signy

All true, at the time they were posted, btw. now? Economy not on fire. -Rappy

Not true at the time.
Once the UN passed Resolution 1441, it rescinded any approval to invade. We invaded after R1441 was passed.

The Bush tax cuts DIDN'T increase tax revenues. Tax revenues did increase during the Bush years, but they increased less than inflation, and far more slowly than under Clinton.

When you said the economy was "on fire", that was about two months before the collapse. You can't go from being "on fire" to falling apart in that short a time. The problem with the economy was that is was based on unsustainable credit. Lots of people saw that.

Anyway, air through the jet. I'll post about this topic later

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Tuesday, December 7, 2010 3:16 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


All true, at the time, but since this thread is about the absurd claim ( yet unsubstantiated ) that the US is trending towards anything like Mexico, I'll not thread jack us off to oblivion.

Wanna discuss other topics in detail, have at it, but in my mind, it's a futile waste of time.


" I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. "

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Tuesday, December 7, 2010 3:22 AM

BLUEHANDEDMENACE


Thatd be the ignore the facts option then.

Did you miss Niki's post Rap?

I know I'm stupid, according to you, but I can see a clear indication of how America is crumbling in many ways, which could easily be said to be more like Mexico.

Was that too big of a leap for you?

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Tuesday, December 7, 2010 8:41 AM

STORYMARK


Quote:

Originally posted by Storymark:
he'll ignore all the evidence and just parrot the same shtick yet again; he'll use his patented "You don't really want to discuss" dodge to just turn tail and run;



So, he opted for options 1 AND 2 this time around.

Quote:

Originally posted by AURaptor:
....

Wanna discuss other topics in detail, have at it, but in my mind, it's a futile waste of time.





I love being right.

"I thoroughly disapprove of duels. If a man should challenge me, I would take him kindly and forgivingly by the hand and lead him to a quiet place and kill him."

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Tuesday, December 7, 2010 8:46 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Quote:

All true, at the time
Well, you nailed it Story...wanna put a bet on whether he actually READ the material? I've got five bucks says he didn't.

After asking for facts, he merely dismisses them, then again misrepresents the initial question. Despite providing the facts he requested and clarifying his misrepresentation of the initial question, he continues to say
Quote:

absurd claim ( yet unsubstantiated ) that the US is trending towards anything like Mexico
when the question was "Do we WANT to be more like..." and the very article which shows how we ARE becoming like a third-world country is titled just that. He then claims to refute what I posted is to "threadjack", followed by saying if we want to discuss "other topics" that's okay--a threadjack if there ever was one, when responding to all the facts and figures he said weren't provided, as well as refuting HIS claim.

Wow. Talk about cutting and running.

Of course I expected no less; more than anything I put all that up to show what the original question was asking and how there's validity to it, for (most) everyone else, who IS interested in facts and figures. I don't expect reasonable debate from him or any of his ilk; actually, that's the best way to get him to cut and run, to prove he's wrong with facts.

Again, AFAF; dogmatism in the face of facts.


Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off




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Tuesday, March 7, 2023 4:40 PM

JAYNEZTOWN


GOP erupts after Americans missing in Mexico: 'Cartels couldn’t ask for a better partner in crime than' Biden

https://uk.news.yahoo.com/gop-erupts-americans-missing-mexico-00005137
5.html

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Friday, August 4, 2023 1:18 PM

JAYNEZTOWN

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Wednesday, July 24, 2024 4:53 AM

JAYNEZTOWN


and the drugs and human smuggling

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Friday, September 6, 2024 6:16 AM

JAYNEZTOWN


Walls for Israel but Open Borders for the USA?

Chuck Schumer: A great American future depends on a path to citizenship for 11 million undocumented

https://twitchy.com/brettt/2024/09/05/chuck-schumer-great-future-in-am
erica-depends-on-a-path-to-citizenship-for-11-million-undocumented-n2400585

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Saturday, October 5, 2024 7:14 PM

JAYNEZTOWN


San Juanico explosion in Mexico




QUOTE

Jewish President of Mexico, has pagan priestess ritually invoke Aztec deities during inauguration

https://x.com/CatholicOrca/status/1842090895874933045

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Thursday, November 7, 2024 8:18 AM

JAYNEZTOWN


she orders the USA to keep counting? Mexico’s El Chapo owned global homo far-left Aztec ritual president says she will not acknowledge Donald Trump as the legitimate president of the United States

https://x.com/Babygravy9/status/1854500190423482372

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Tuesday, November 19, 2024 10:00 AM

JAYNEZTOWN


Trump announces "border czar" will be Tom Homan, former head of immigration enforcement

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/trump-border-czar-tom-homan-former-immigr
ation-enforcement-head
/




seems Trump had call with Mexico's president


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